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Judy Bauer wrote:
KSF wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
Now, to be honest, I'm not too well read on the subject of transgender studies. What would be a good read to get me started?
What sort of thing are you looking for? Memoir? Scientific studies? History? Fiction?
I'd love fiction recs, please!

Fiction's the one area where I'm not much help, unfortunately. Most of my trans-related reading tends to be memoirs or stuff like Julia Serano's trans-feminist essays. Maybe try some of Kittyburger's suggestions from the top of the previous page?

Now that I think of it, I'm not sure I've ever read a piece of fiction with an actual transgender character in it, in terms of a depiction that corresponds to the contemporary transgender experience. Films and comics, sure. But not prose.

There's various sci-fi stories I've read that have characters who change gender through technology, like in Iain M Banks' Culture series or things like in The Left Hand of Darkness, but those tend to be more about explorations of gender and gender roles in science fictional contexts than about transgenderism. Huh.

Sorry I couldn't be more help.


Todd Stewart wrote:
TanithT wrote:
IceniQueen wrote:
Female to male do have it easier with hormones. Since their bodies have never had the "Damage" done by the horrible T hormone.

Hey, what you're calling damage I'd consider a blessing. Sadly it's not something I can have right now, or possibly ever.

Wanna just swap bodies? That would be awesome if the technology got to that point. ;)

I already have dibs on swapping bodies with you 'hon. :)

This gives new meaning to desiring your partner's body...


Todd Stewart wrote:
I already have dibs on swapping bodies with you 'hon. :)

True. So you better get busy sciencing us up a way to make it happen! You can grow us the requisite parts on the back of a hairless mouse, right? I saw it on TV so it must work that way. ;)


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Drejk wrote:
This gives new meaning to desiring your partner's body...

It does add an interesting dimension to the relationship. While there's things we both wish we could have that we don't, the fact that we're in the exact same boat makes it work surprisingly well. Sometimes life throws you good things, even in situations that would otherwise suck a lot more.

And hey, if the technology for brain porting ever does come along, we're golden.

Grand Lodge

KSF wrote:
Judy Bauer wrote:
KSF wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
Now, to be honest, I'm not too well read on the subject of transgender studies. What would be a good read to get me started?
What sort of thing are you looking for? Memoir? Scientific studies? History? Fiction?
I'd love fiction recs, please!

Fiction's the one area where I'm not much help, unfortunately. Most of my trans-related reading tends to be memoirs or stuff like Julia Serano's trans-feminist essays. Maybe try some of Kittyburger's suggestions from the top of the previous page?

Now that I think of it, I'm not sure I've ever read a piece of fiction with an actual transgender character in it, in terms of a depiction that corresponds to the contemporary transgender experience. Films and comics, sure. But not prose.

There's various sci-fi stories I've read that have characters who change gender through technology, like in Iain M Banks' Culture series or things like in The Left Hand of Darkness, but those tend to be more about explorations of gender and gender roles in science fictional contexts than about transgenderism. Huh.

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

I would also strongly recommend Susan Jane Bigelow. Susan's first three novels each got starred reviews in Publisher's Weekly, which is kind of a Big Thing.

Grand Lodge

TanithT wrote:
Drejk wrote:
This gives new meaning to desiring your partner's body...

It does add an interesting dimension to the relationship. While there's things we both wish we could have that we don't, the fact that we're in the exact same boat makes it work surprisingly well. Sometimes life throws you good things, even in situations that would otherwise suck a lot more.

And hey, if the technology for brain porting ever does come along, we're golden.

I'm actually more interested in various stem cell therapies. :) I don't want to go all Body Snatchers, I want to make MY body work more like it should.

Contributor

TanithT wrote:
Todd Stewart wrote:
I already have dibs on swapping bodies with you 'hon. :)
True. So you better get busy sciencing us up a way to make it happen! You can grow us the requisite parts on the back of a hairless mouse, right? I saw it on TV so it must work that way. ;)

We've come a long way since Vladimir Demikhov's early work with dogs, and the 1970's era monkey head transplants by Robert White et al. But even if we swapped brains as a way to make two transgender individuals happy, there are some seriously questions about how the brain would be able to (or be -un-able to) process the different sensory inputs from organs that it didn't previously have. I suspect it might either prove plastic enough to handle it over time, or it would thrust the transplantee into a nightmare of myriad phantom limb'esque sensation.

Here's the most recent publication I've seen:
Canavero S. HEAVEN: The head anastomosis venture Project outline for the first human head transplantation with spinal linkage (GEMINI). Surg Neurol Int 2013;4, Suppl S1:335-42

Oh and suffice to say the work has ethical questions regarding the steps we'd need to take before doing it in people. And once it's possible, the problem of body theft as a method of life-extension (ignoring the problem of brain aging).

Contributor

Kittyburger wrote:
TanithT wrote:
Drejk wrote:
This gives new meaning to desiring your partner's body...

It does add an interesting dimension to the relationship. While there's things we both wish we could have that we don't, the fact that we're in the exact same boat makes it work surprisingly well. Sometimes life throws you good things, even in situations that would otherwise suck a lot more.

And hey, if the technology for brain porting ever does come along, we're golden.

I'm actually more interested in various stem cell therapies. :) I don't want to go all Body Snatchers, I want to make MY body work more like it should.

I would happily grow my own clone, but with the male specific genes on the Y chromosome turned off, and ensure the clone was acephalic. It reaches maturity, I swap heads. Nobody harmed. :D

Though clearly the idea may completely terrify or squick some folks, but it would be nearly an ideal situation for me (assuming the problem of brain interface with the new organs and nerves could be solved).


Kittyburger wrote:
TanithT wrote:
Drejk wrote:
This gives new meaning to desiring your partner's body...

It does add an interesting dimension to the relationship. While there's things we both wish we could have that we don't, the fact that we're in the exact same boat makes it work surprisingly well. Sometimes life throws you good things, even in situations that would otherwise suck a lot more.

And hey, if the technology for brain porting ever does come along, we're golden.

I'm actually more interested in various stem cell therapies. :) I don't want to go all Body Snatchers, I want to make MY body work more like it should.

Yeah, stem cells seem like a promising avenue.

And I wonder if something new and odd like this will ever lead to anything.


Todd Stewart wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
TanithT wrote:
Drejk wrote:
This gives new meaning to desiring your partner's body...

It does add an interesting dimension to the relationship. While there's things we both wish we could have that we don't, the fact that we're in the exact same boat makes it work surprisingly well. Sometimes life throws you good things, even in situations that would otherwise suck a lot more.

And hey, if the technology for brain porting ever does come along, we're golden.

I'm actually more interested in various stem cell therapies. :) I don't want to go all Body Snatchers, I want to make MY body work more like it should.

I would happily grow my own clone, but with the male specific genes on the Y chromosome turned off, and ensure the clone was acephalic. It reaches maturity, I swap heads. Nobody harmed. :D

Though clearly the idea may completely terrify or squick some folks, but it would be nearly an ideal situation for me (assuming the problem of brain interface with the new organs and nerves could be solved).

In a situation like that, I'd almost rather let the clone be created and then let her live her own life. I'd be satisfied knowing there was a version of me who got to start fresh and live her life the way she should have.

This discussion is starting to sound like a Fringe episode or something.


Kittyburger wrote:
I'm actually more interested in various stem cell therapies. :) I don't want to go all Body Snatchers, I want to make MY body work more like it should.

I hit the gym for that, myself. Worked pretty well for me, at least to feel stronger and a little more comfortable in my own skin. This isn't the perfect solution and it may not help at all for other people, but I'm pretty good with where it got me.

The issues for us with making permanent visible changes have to do with job and career concerns, privacy issues, and the fact that neither of us would be able to continue in the relationship post-transition. All the respect and understanding in the world cannot change our sexual orientations. Because of my own gender dysphoria, I feel deep discomfort bordering on revulsion for the female form and for the idea of being intimate with a woman. I feel respect and friendship and camaraderie with transwomen, but it is just not my personal sexual orientation to date a female bodied or female identified person. The mirror image of this is true for my partner.

While I would never want to stop another transgendered person from transitioning, the reality is that there would be a hard choice to make. I asked myself these questions early on, and if transition had not already been ruled out for both of us independent of any influence from the other, I don't think I could (or should) have entered the relationship. A transgendered person deserves a partner who can be fully supportive of their need for gender expression, whatever that may be, including transition if that's the overwhelming need.

It actually does work for us because we can both dance the gender spectrum without the need to settle permanently on either end. There's dysphoria at times, but it's a survivable situation especially with an understanding partner. If either or both of us were further along on the trans spectrum, it probably wouldn't be.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I don't know if anyone here is interested in anime/manga, but there's a great series called Hourou Musuko (T/L: Wandering Son) about two trans* kids (a boy and a girl) who are growing up and figuring out their gender identities. The manga recently ended (and, sadly, has a rather rushed ending because the author has health problems) but the anime is reasonably stand-alone and is fairly short (12 episodes iirc).

It's a story of growing up, of learning about yourself, and of navigating the pitfalls of puberty while being a bit "different" to everyone else. It's a really well done series.

EDIT: Side note... if anyone is interested in other LGBT-themed anime and manga, I'm pretty well versed in the topic--although admittedly more on the yuri (girl x girl) side of things than others.


Alice Margatroid wrote:

I don't know if anyone here is interested in anime/manga, but there's a great series called Hourou Musuko (T/L: Wandering Son) about two trans* kids (a boy and a girl) who are growing up and figuring out their gender identities. The manga recently ended (and, sadly, has a rather rushed ending because the author has health problems) but the anime is reasonably stand-alone and is fairly short (12 episodes iirc).

It's a story of growing up, of learning about yourself, and of navigating the pitfalls of puberty while being a bit "different" to everyone else. It's a really well done series.

I haven't read or seen it, but I've read comments by a number of trans people who have really connected to that series, both the manga and the anime.

Grand Lodge

Alice Margatroid wrote:

I don't know if anyone here is interested in anime/manga, but there's a great series called Hourou Musuko (T/L: Wandering Son) about two trans* kids (a boy and a girl) who are growing up and figuring out their gender identities. The manga recently ended (and, sadly, has a rather rushed ending because the author has health problems) but the anime is reasonably stand-alone and is fairly short (12 episodes iirc).

It's a story of growing up, of learning about yourself, and of navigating the pitfalls of puberty while being a bit "different" to everyone else. It's a really well done series.

EDIT: Side note... if anyone is interested in other LGBT-themed anime and manga, I'm pretty well versed in the topic--although admittedly more on the yuri (girl x girl) side of things than others.

I liked it a great deal when I was doing my research, but ultimately chose not to include it in the finished paper because it would involve a third discipline (cross-cultural studies) in addition to the two I was already writing on (English and Women's Studies) - hardly suited to a 10-week project.


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Todd Stewart wrote:
I would happily grow my own clone, but with the male specific genes on the Y chromosome turned off, and ensure the clone was acephalic. It reaches maturity, I swap heads. Nobody harmed. :D

Reminds me of an old filk song first published in Isaac Asimov's magazine. Sung to the tune of "Home On The Range".

Oh, give me a clone
Of my very own
With its Y chromosone changed to X.

And when it is grown
Then my own little clone
It will be of the opposite sex.

Clone, clone of my own
With its Y chromosone changed to X.

And when I'm alone
With my own little clone
We will both think of nothing but sex!


Judy Bauer wrote:


I'd love fiction recs, please!

Stone Butch Blues by Leslie Feinberg is one of the most powerful and moving portraits of gender identity and transition I have ever read. It is written as a story narrative, and some of it is fictional, but I'm guessing there's a lot of reality to it as well.


TanithT wrote:

Reminds me of an old filk song first published in Isaac Asimov's magazine. Sung to the tune of "Home On The Range".

Oh, give me a clone
Of my very own
With its Y chromosone changed to X.

And when it is grown
Then my own little clone
It will be of the opposite sex.

Clone, clone of my own
With its Y chromosone changed to X.

And when I'm alone
With my own little clone
We will both think of nothing but sex!

The only problem with that is my brain keeps trying to hear Bugs Bunny singing it. :)

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
TanithT wrote:

Reminds me of an old filk song first published in Isaac Asimov's magazine. Sung to the tune of "Home On The Range".

Oh, give me a clone
Of my very own
With its Y chromosone changed to X.

And when it is grown
Then my own little clone
It will be of the opposite sex.

Clone, clone of my own
With its Y chromosone changed to X.

And when I'm alone
With my own little clone
We will both think of nothing but sex!

The only problem with that is my brain keeps trying to hear Bugs Bunny singing it. :)

Let's see, HOW often did Bugs dress up in drag?

Sovereign Court Contributor

I was introduced to the idea of genderfluidity by reading John Varley and Ursula Le Guin (um, started reading adult sci-fi at about 10 or 11). I think that dates me. It meant that accepting my sister was pretty easy. Sci-fi celebrates difference and alternate perspectives, by its nature, I think. An excellent way to raise a freethinking kid.


Kittyburger wrote:
Let's see, HOW often did Bugs dress up in drag?

Unsurprisingly - the interwebs has your answer!

I counted 46 on the scroll through.

Paizo Employee Editor

Stone Butch Blues and Susan Jane Bigelow's Broken added to my queue! Thanks! ^_^

Silver Crusade

10 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Todd Stewart wrote:
<difficult stuff>
{hugs} The one guy I had a crush on in high school turned out to not be a guy after all. (She is now happily post-transition and married in Mass, and last I'd heard, she and her hubby are looking to adopt their first child.) I'm still a little jealous of how much better she looked in a skirt than me.

I know this is six months old, but I was catching up on the thread and was reminded of something both LGBT and gaming related in my own life.

Spoiler:
So I've been transgender since I was little, with it taking full effect with puberty. I like many trans* women went through phases of my life where I repressed my feelings and tried to be as masculine as possible to force myself to be 'normal'. I was miserable. I came close to coming out 8 years ago, but something happened, I don't remember what, that forced me back into the closet.

Cut to threeish years ago. I got fired from my job for violating policies I shouldn't have and went into a deep depression. It was at that point that I realized I needed to transition or I was going to end my life. So I made that decision and slowly started working towards it. I got hired by a local grocery store and slowly started coming out to friends and family. One group of friends that I came out to was my gaming group obviously. It was many more months however before any of them met the 'real' me. The reason for that is that one of our gaming group has (at the time) a twelve year old son that also gamed with us, and I didn't know if he had been talked to about my transition by his dad. So that was pretty much the last place in my private life where I was still presenting as male, but doing it fairly awkwardly (wearing gloves to hide nail polish, and things like that). The other place was at work. When I told my supervisors of my intention to transition, they were supportive at first, but then I was fired for that specific reason three weeks after coming out. I rebounded quickly and got a job where I was accepted as Cori, and lived pretty much full time. With the exception of the gaming table still.

Cut to eight months later, I get a new and even more accepting job (HRC 100 company, yay!) but with a caveat: my work hours brushed right up against game time. I could still make it on time, but wouldn't have time to 'man up' for the session. So I told the group what was going to happen and they were all fine with it, Dennis told me he had talked to Kaen about it and that everything was cool. I was also at that point asked to move in with two of my gaming group, and accepted that offer.

Now to the relevant part of the story. As I said, none of the group had seen me in girl mode before, with the brand new exception of my new roommates obviously. To celebrate my moving in, we had a Fourth of July barbecue last summer, that doubled as my coming out party with this group of friends. Naturally, I went fairly femme for this occasion. A cute skirt, adorable wedges, feminine blouse. Even had my hair done that day so it would look better than I could ever get it. So I'm sitting with my back to the main driveway talking with some of the group when two of the girls in the group arrive. They don't recognize me from the back, and I've been told later that one of them was immediately jealous of my legs and then even more so when she realized it was me. That she thought it was incredibly unfair that I have better legs than her as she's a GG.

All in all I'm proud to say that my friends have been so incredibly supportive through this difficult portion of my life and I'm so happy to have them. I can't wait to be able to take them all out for dinner and drinks soon. This has honestly been the best year of my life, though next year will likely trump it, as next year I hope to see Dr. Bowers ;)


Todd Stewart wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
TanithT wrote:
Drejk wrote:
This gives new meaning to desiring your partner's body...

It does add an interesting dimension to the relationship. While there's things we both wish we could have that we don't, the fact that we're in the exact same boat makes it work surprisingly well. Sometimes life throws you good things, even in situations that would otherwise suck a lot more.

And hey, if the technology for brain porting ever does come along, we're golden.

I'm actually more interested in various stem cell therapies. :) I don't want to go all Body Snatchers, I want to make MY body work more like it should.

I would happily grow my own clone, but with the male specific genes on the Y chromosome turned off, and ensure the clone was acephalic. It reaches maturity, I swap heads. Nobody harmed. :D

Though clearly the idea may completely terrify or squick some folks, but it would be nearly an ideal situation for me (assuming the problem of brain interface with the new organs and nerves could be solved).

I don't know if this is evil, genius, or perhaps both.


Alice Margatroid wrote:

I don't know if anyone here is interested in anime/manga, but there's a great series called Hourou Musuko (T/L: Wandering Son) about two trans* kids (a boy and a girl) who are growing up and figuring out their gender identities. The manga recently ended (and, sadly, has a rather rushed ending because the author has health problems) but the anime is reasonably stand-alone and is fairly short (12 episodes iirc).

It's a story of growing up, of learning about yourself, and of navigating the pitfalls of puberty while being a bit "different" to everyone else. It's a really well done series.

EDIT: Side note... if anyone is interested in other LGBT-themed anime and manga, I'm pretty well versed in the topic--although admittedly more on the yuri (girl x girl) side of things than others.

AWESOME!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
TanithT wrote:
Todd Stewart wrote:
I would happily grow my own clone, but with the male specific genes on the Y chromosome turned off, and ensure the clone was acephalic. It reaches maturity, I swap heads. Nobody harmed. :D

Reminds me of an old filk song first published in Isaac Asimov's magazine. Sung to the tune of "Home On The Range".

Oh, give me a clone
Of my very own
With its Y chromosone changed to X.

And when it is grown
Then my own little clone
It will be of the opposite sex.

Clone, clone of my own
With its Y chromosone changed to X.

And when I'm alone
With my own little clone
We will both think of nothing but sex!

see, this is why I come here....


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

This is a webcomic with two trans characters (one MtF and one FtM) that I really liked.

I haven't read any of this books, because my to-read pile is massive, but here are some lists of books with trans characters:

http://www.leewind.org/search/label/Transgender%20Teen%20Characters%2FTheme s

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/11446.Booklist_for_Trans_Youth

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/6013.FTM_Trans_Men

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/24401.Transgender_Books

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/30118.Non_Binary_Genderqueer_Genderfluid _Gender_Unspecified_etc_Fiction_and_Memoirs

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/33634.Trans_Characters_in_Science_Fictio n

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/38130.Trans_Young_Adult_Books


The company everbody loves to hate


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cori Marie wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Todd Stewart wrote:
<difficult stuff>
{hugs} The one guy I had a crush on in high school turned out to not be a guy after all. (She is now happily post-transition and married in Mass, and last I'd heard, she and her hubby are looking to adopt their first child.) I'm still a little jealous of how much better she looked in a skirt than me.

I know this is six months old, but I was catching up on the thread and was reminded of something both LGBT and gaming related in my own life.

** spoiler omitted **...

{BIG HUG} I'm so glad you were able to rebound from that stupid short-sighted employer and your depression. I am slightly miffed that you seem to confirm that trans* girls seem to be predisposed to fantastic legs though. ;)

Quote:
Dr. Bowers

I've great things about her through the grapevine, as well as Dr. McGinn here in FL.

Grand Lodge

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Todd Stewart wrote:
<difficult stuff>
{hugs} The one guy I had a crush on in high school turned out to not be a guy after all. (She is now happily post-transition and married in Mass, and last I'd heard, she and her hubby are looking to adopt their first child.) I'm still a little jealous of how much better she looked in a skirt than me.

I know this is six months old, but I was catching up on the thread and was reminded of something both LGBT and gaming related in my own life.

** spoiler omitted **...

{BIG HUG} I'm so glad you were able to rebound from that stupid short-sighted employer and your depression. I am slightly miffed that you seem to confirm that trans* girls seem to be predisposed to fantastic legs though. ;)

Some of us! Others have just as many concerns/problems about having stumpy legs as any other girl though.

Quote:
Quote:
Dr. Bowers
I've great things about her through the grapevine, as well as Dr. McGinn here in FL.

Julia Serano and I had a sad chuckle a few months back about how trans girls always compare notes regarding our surgeons. :)

Silver Crusade

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hey, that short-sighted employer is funding my surgery in a round-about way, so I can't complain too much :P Always look at the bright side. Losing my job at Walmart forced me into a decision to be happy, while losing my job with the grocery store is both funding me and led me to find the best job I've ever had. Always do your best to be optimistic! :D


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
I'm so glad you were able to rebound from that stupid short-sighted employer and your depression.

Seconded.

Grand Lodge

KSF wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
I'm so glad you were able to rebound from that stupid short-sighted employer and your depression.
Seconded.

Sustained.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cori Marie wrote:
Hey, that short-sighted employer is funding my surgery in a round-about way, so I can't complain too much :P Always look at the bright side. Losing my job at Walmart forced me into a decision to be happy, while losing my job with the grocery store is both funding me and led me to find the best job I've ever had. Always do your best to be optimistic! :D

living well is the best revenge.


Transgendered Britishiznoid folksinger I'd never heard of dies

:(


Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:

Transgendered Britishiznoid folksinger I'd never heard of dies

:(

Huh. Transitioned at the age of 76 in 2010.

I always have very mixed emotions when I read stories like this. Sad to read of her passing, sad to read of how long it took her to get to the point where she could transition, but lifted up by her work, and by that sense of, there's one of us who accomplished something, or created something that moved people. Seems she had a lovely voice, from the sound of the song at the head of that article.

The most recent story like this I read before this one was that of PJ Torokvei, who was the head writer for WKRP in Cincinnati (and co-writer of Back to School and Real Genius). I grew up watching WKRP, having no idea the head writer of the show was suffering through what I was suffering through.

Thanks for posting that, Mr. Doodlebug.

Edit to add: Still can't express what I'm trying to say here. There's something, for me, about having grown up in a period where you really didn't hear about trans people. (Maybe Wendy Carlos, that's about it.) And then to hear about them as they pass (or more happily, when they transition), I don't know, makes me feel retroactively less alone somehow, if that makes sense.

Sovereign Court Contributor

For a while the only trans person I was familiar with was Jan Morris. But I'm Welsh.

Silver Crusade

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Todd Stewart wrote:
<difficult stuff>
{hugs} The one guy I had a crush on in high school turned out to not be a guy after all. (She is now happily post-transition and married in Mass, and last I'd heard, she and her hubby are looking to adopt their first child.) I'm still a little jealous of how much better she looked in a skirt than me.

I know this is six months old, but I was catching up on the thread and was reminded of something both LGBT and gaming related in my own life.

** spoiler omitted **...

{BIG HUG} I'm so glad you were able to rebound from that stupid short-sighted employer and your depression.

Seriously, seconding the hugs. And good on you, Cori.

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
I am slightly miffed that you seem to confirm that trans* girls seem to be predisposed to fantastic legs though. ;)

DEM GAMS


I have a question that comes from a place of ignorance, and so for that I apologize. I also apologize if the formulation of this question is convoluted and poorly worded (I am trying to understand something that seems very complex to me).

I think I understand the idea of Sexual Orientation regarding sexual attraction.

I think I understand the idea of Gender Identity.

How often is it that a person who has a strong feeling of disconnection to their Gender Identity (being physiologically one sex but having a strong mental awareness that they are the other sex) is at the same time disconnected from their sense of sexual attraction (that is, even though they “know” what Gender is right for their own sense of well being, they are not certain about their sense of sexual orientation, or are confused about what gender is more sexually attractive to them)?

Does that question make any sense?

I have a cynical belief that the number of people, today (particularly people who claim to be young women while interacting with others on the internet) who claim to be bi-sexual, are most likely not bi-sexual at all and are acting under the pressure of our culture to demonstrate as bi-sexual for the apparent attention it brings, but specifically I am curious as to how often Gender Identity is connected to Sexual Orientation. How many people who feel that they would be happier if they could transition to the opposite sex are still sexually attracted to the sex that they desire to transition to or are sexually attracted to both male and female, and their Gender Identity is not connected to this?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Terquem wrote:

I have a question that comes from a place of ignorance, and so for that I apologize. I also apologize if the formulation of this question is convoluted and poorly worded (I am trying to understand something that seems very complex to me).

I think I understand the idea of Sexual Orientation regarding sexual attraction.

I think I understand the idea of Gender Identity.

How often is it that a person who has a strong feeling of disconnection to their Gender Identity (being physiologically one sex but having a strong mental awareness that they are the other sex) is at the same time disconnected from their sense of sexual attraction (that is, even though they “know” what Gender is right for their own sense of well being, they are not certain about their sense of sexual orientation, or are confused about what gender is more sexually attractive to them)?

Does that question make any sense?

I have a cynical belief that the number of people, today (particularly people who claim to be young women while interacting with others on the internet) who claim to be bi-sexual, are most likely not bi-sexual at all and are acting under the pressure of our culture to demonstrate as bi-sexual for the apparent attention it brings, but specifically I am curious as to how often Gender Identity is connected to Sexual Orientation. How many people who feel that they would be happier if they could transition to the opposite sex are still sexually attracted to the sex that they desire to transition to or are sexually attracted to both male and female, and their Gender Identity is not connected to this?

I do know there is a population within the trans community that is attracted to the gender they are transitioning to. I have no idea how large this group is, but I do know that being so rude/curious as to directly ask why they are transitioning if they are going to "be gay" is a big part of trans-phobia.

Grand Lodge

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Freehold DM wrote:
Terquem wrote:

I have a question that comes from a place of ignorance, and so for that I apologize. I also apologize if the formulation of this question is convoluted and poorly worded (I am trying to understand something that seems very complex to me).

I think I understand the idea of Sexual Orientation regarding sexual attraction.

I think I understand the idea of Gender Identity.

How often is it that a person who has a strong feeling of disconnection to their Gender Identity (being physiologically one sex but having a strong mental awareness that they are the other sex) is at the same time disconnected from their sense of sexual attraction (that is, even though they “know” what Gender is right for their own sense of well being, they are not certain about their sense of sexual orientation, or are confused about what gender is more sexually attractive to them)?

Does that question make any sense?

I have a cynical belief that the number of people, today (particularly people who claim to be young women while interacting with others on the internet) who claim to be bi-sexual, are most likely not bi-sexual at all and are acting under the pressure of our culture to demonstrate as bi-sexual for the apparent attention it brings, but specifically I am curious as to how often Gender Identity is connected to Sexual Orientation. How many people who feel that they would be happier if they could transition to the opposite sex are still sexually attracted to the sex that they desire to transition to or are sexually attracted to both male and female, and their Gender Identity is not connected to this?

I do know there is a population within the trans community that is attracted to the gender they are transitioning to. I have no idea how large this group is, but I do know that being so rude/curious as to directly ask why they are transitioning if they are going to "be gay" is a big part of trans-phobia.

When I transitioned I was strongly (about 80%, give or take) attracted to women over men. With estrogen I would say that that's stayed pretty much static, maybe moved about 10% in the direction toward bisexual. I like to say I occupy three, sometimes four letters of the Alphabet Soup (L, B, T and sometimes Q).


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Terquem wrote:

I have a question that comes from a place of ignorance, and so for that I apologize. I also apologize if the formulation of this question is convoluted and poorly worded (I am trying to understand something that seems very complex to me).

I think I understand the idea of Sexual Orientation regarding sexual attraction.

I think I understand the idea of Gender Identity.

How often is it that a person who has a strong feeling of disconnection to their Gender Identity (being physiologically one sex but having a strong mental awareness that they are the other sex) is at the same time disconnected from their sense of sexual attraction (that is, even though they “know” what Gender is right for their own sense of well being, they are not certain about their sense of sexual orientation, or are confused about what gender is more sexually attractive to them)?

Does that question make any sense?

Well, first, I'd say suggest that trans people more often than not actually have a very strong feeling of connection to their gender identity, but a sense of disconnection, or rejection, of their biological gender. That strong sense of connection is why we transition.

As for how sexual identity can get caught up in this, it can be complicated, and it varies, as near as I can tell. Some trans people experience no shift in sexual orientation over the course of transition, some do. Some are attracted to people of the opposite physical sex prior to transition and retain that orientation (making them gay trans men attracted to men, or lesbian trans women attracted to women). Some are heterosexual after transition. Some are bi before and after transition. Some realize they're bi during or after transition. It varies, and is not a set thing. (The rule of thumb I've heard is: 1/3 retain the same orientation, 1/3 change orientation, 1/3 lose interest in sex all together. But like any rule of thumb, that's probably not accurate.)

Some trans women, who had previously been attracted to women prior to transition, do say that, partway through transition, they began noticing men in a way they hadn't before. That does not, by any means, happen to every trans woman. (I'm less familiar with the experiences of trans men.)

(Note that all of this can make things complicated for the partners of trans people if they got together prior to transition.)

Personally, I was a bit bi prior to transition, but it took a long time to realize and come to terms with that, probably because of internalized homophobia picked up from the surrounding culture. I'm more strongly bi now, definitely notice handsome men a bit more, but am still more strongly attracted to women.

Does that help?

Terquem wrote:
I have a cynical belief that the number of people, today (particularly people who claim to be young women while interacting with others on the internet) who claim to be bi-sexual, are most likely not bi-sexual at all and are acting under the pressure of our culture to demonstrate as bi-sexual for the apparent attention it brings, but specifically I am curious as to how often Gender Identity is connected to Sexual Orientation.

I'm not sure I'd agree that there is pressure in our culture to be bisexual. And I generally take people at their word about their sexual identity. (Because, why not? What do I gain by doubting them?)

Terquem wrote:
How many people who feel that they would be happier if they could transition to the opposite sex are still sexually attracted to the sex that they desire to transition to or are sexually attracted to both male and female, and their Gender Identity is not connected to this?

Probably a fair number. I think people are more aware of it these days.

When I was in my early 20s and first seriously thinking about transition (seriously as in, how do I go about actually doing this), there was less of a sense that trans women could be lesbians. Bi was completely off the table. It was, in fact, sometimes said that you weren't a male to female transsexual if you were attracted to women. This could be reinforced by various gatekeeping mechanisms. (It may still be, but more rarely, I'd hope.) Personally, I never made it to the gate at all at the time. Every piece of information I was able to find about transsexualism said you couldn't possibly both like women and want to transition to one, you must instead really be a cross dresser. (This was the early 90s, good info was less available). Since I knew I wasn't a cross dresser, that sent me back in confusion into the closet for a long, long time.

Again, I'd suggest that it's better to take people at their word about their identity. I'm not sure a cynical approach to the issue gains you anything, and I'm not sure that it provides you with any more accurate a picture of anyone. And it probably doesn't do much good for the people you're being cynical about.

Project Manager

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Incidentally, maybe Bioware is no longer the only major video game company that's trying to do better on this stuff: http://imgur.com/a/6Pcd2 :-)

Silver Crusade

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Jessica Price wrote:
Incidentally, maybe Bioware is no longer the only major video game company that's trying to do better on this stuff: http://imgur.com/a/6Pcd2 :-)

Oh hell yes! I love Borderlands and the Burch siblings. :)

Y'know, this could be a way to get a male Siren too...


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Terquem wrote:
How often is it that a person who has a strong feeling of disconnection to their Gender Identity (being physiologically one sex but having a strong mental awareness that they are the other sex) is at the same time disconnected from their sense of sexual attraction (that is, even though they “know” what Gender is right for their own sense of well being, they are not certain about their sense of sexual orientation, or are confused about what gender is more sexually attractive to them)?

It happens, but it's probably rarer than most people think. Gender identity is entirely separate from sexual orientation. It's internal and about yourself, whereas attraction is external and about other people.

Quote:
I have a cynical belief that the number of people, today (particularly people who claim to be young women while interacting with others on the internet) who claim to be bi-sexual, are most likely not bi-sexual at all and are acting under the pressure of our culture to demonstrate as bi-sexual for the apparent attention it brings

I have an equally cynical belief that the number of men who deny their bisexual or gay feelings and hide them under the cover of aggressive heteronormative masculinity is pretty damn large. They're likely not straight at all, even if they do their best to present as hyper-straight.

Opposite cultural pressures on women to be bi and on men not to be bi will predictably create these social strategies. Both of them are deeply hurtful to everyone including the victims, and highly dysfunctional.

Quote:
I am curious as to how often Gender Identity is connected to Sexual Orientation.

Mostly, it's just not.

Quote:
How many people who feel that they would be happier if they could transition to the opposite sex are still sexually attracted to the sex that they desire to transition to or are sexually attracted to both male and female, and their Gender Identity is not connected to this?

Me. And the vast majority of other transfolks I've ever talked to. There are exceptions where orientation may change and evolve post-hormones or post-transition, but for the most part, they're totally separate and have nothing to do with each other.

Silver Crusade

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I just passed Anderson Cooper on the sidewalk.

Gay. Day. Made.


Celestial Healer wrote:

I just passed Anderson Cooper on the sidewalk.

Gay. Day. Made.

ch, you have been too awesome lately. I going to have to rub you for luck.


I like the setting for borderlands--even purchased the first game--but I've found I'm incapable of playing it. The colors/graphics are too intense for me. I can barely focus while playing. Sucks--I was excited to play it.

Silver Crusade

Freehold DM wrote:
Celestial Healer wrote:

I just passed Anderson Cooper on the sidewalk.

Gay. Day. Made.

ch, you have been too awesome lately. I going to have to rub you for luck.

Only if I get to rub Anderson Cooper for luck.


One more brick in this house


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First of all, I would like to say that I really appreciate all of you who have been willing to talk so freely about what it means to be transgender. I've really learned a lot about what you have to go through. Obviously I'll never fully understand, but any increase in understanding is good. :)

This however, I just couldn't let go without saying something...

Terquem wrote:


I have a cynical belief that the number of people, today (particularly people who claim to be young women while interacting with others on the internet) who claim to be bi-sexual, are most likely not bi-sexual at all and are acting under the pressure of our culture to demonstrate as bi-sexual for the apparent attention it brings

This attitude doesn't just make me sad. It makes me angry. Because I've run into it a lot and in ways that have been hurtful at best. I shouldn't have to be accused of not being real and/or making things up for attention for being myself, but I have been. I'm not all that young, but the internet doesn't show age, and I tend to adopt a very informal posting style which reads as young to some people, so I get hit with this nonsense a lot. Everything from pics or you're not really a girl to cynical statements about not really being bi. As if I don't know my own sexual orientation. :/

Whether the person claiming to be female and bi is actually female and bi, is young and exploring their sexual identity, is seeking attention as you fear, is actually male and exploring another gender for whatever reason, or even just a person who likes to mess with people's heads for the lulz, this cynicism does not actually do anything productive. It can lead to some pretty awful things being said to people. I'm not saying you have. I do want to clarify this. I am not calling you out specifically. It's the attitude I have a problem with, not you.

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