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Just popping in to say hi.

I wish that I was more eloquent and able to appropriately communicate support for the Paizo family being as wide and inclusive as possible, as well as for the fight being fought for normal to be seen as normal. But fancy words are hard... so I'll just go with hi.

I'm in a part of the world (SE Asia - specifically Malaysia) where LGBT issues are still at the height of bigotry... but there is still an undercurrent for change and strength of community.

Thought I'd share what I thought was a good-news response to a recent hate campaign where seminars were held to teach parents how to identify gay kids. (Which I found slightly hilarious that 'attracted to men' only shows up third on the list for 'symptoms' - below wearing v-necks and tight clothes).

A local restaurant decided to make fun of the guidelines by giving away free food to anyone who fit the 'guidelines'.

Along with the inevitable memes that sprung up as well.

Hope that if not a chuckle it at least raised a smile.


I heard of that. Restaurant reaction was fun. Hate campaign itself was bordering on ridiculous, from what I remember...


Yeah - but Malaysia comes out with some ridiculous things every now and again. The positive aspect being that despite it being pushed by politicians or religious groups - the urban majority mainly laugh at it as stupid.

Still a huge amount of work to be done, especially in rural areas... but progress is progress.


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I want to point out that not all trans-people feel trapped in the wrong body. Some trans-people are content with their sex and their gender. They just enjoy crossdressing. Transvestites are still trans-people. One of the biggest problems I see and encounter is the pigeonholing of people into a few letters. How I feel about who I am is certainly not how some others feel about who they are. I am a man in a man's body who is attracted to men and women and I enjoy dressing as a woman sometimes. To complicate things, I only enjoy being with women when I'm Bob and I only enjoy being with men when I'm Cindy. I have no idea where I fit into those four letters. I also don't really care that much so long as I'm accepted for who I am. I find a lot of people who think I should be "choosing a team" whether it be being straight/gay or man/woman, they want me to be something I'm not.

I'm out but I don't discuss it with anyone unless they want to be supportive or have genuine curiosity questions. I don't even know if my parents accept this as who I am or not. They know. They have to know. I came out on Facebook and they read everything. However, they haven't talked to me about it. They still talk to me and we still enjoy spending time together but the subject never comes up. I know that my dad has a problem with homosexuality. So long as he treats me the same as he always has, I'm ok with that even if he doesn't like this part of who I am. Not everyone is so lucky though.

Project Manager

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Orfamay Quest wrote:
KSF wrote:
Generic Villain wrote:
There but for the grace of God go you. Or, consider yourself lucky that you aren't in their position, because you would most assureadly say differently. It's so very easy to dismiss others when you don't have to experience what they do.

To be fair to Orfamy Quest, it can be difficult to wrap your head around if you haven't experienced it, or don't know someone experiencing it. It would, however, be cool if he did attempt to do so.

Alternatively, you could read what I actually wrote, and realize that if you're trying to persuade people that you're normal, using language that sounds to the uninitiated like you're screaming yellow bonkers is not necessarily the first and best option.

"I wear underwear on my head because I like it" makes sense even if the listener is normally dressed.

"I wear underwear on my head because I have the wrong body configuration"... Well, let me just say that that may be useful as a metaphor. That's about all I can say for it, though.

"Screaming yellow bonkers"?

Ok, I'll be the first to admit I can't speak for trans people, not being one, but I'm unclear as to what makes the concept of feeling like you were born into the wrong gender body so hard to understand or difficult to empathize with.

The idea of people body-switching has been the subject of enough movies, tv shows and books (and a few dramas/horror movies), and the discomfort of it is pretty clearly portrayed in all those media. The discomfort of people who have had to pretend to be the opposite sex for whatever reason (safety, escape from bad circumstances, etc.) has been pretty clearly both documented and imagined in history and in fiction.

Heck, feeling like your body is in some way a betrayal of who you are is something that plenty of people experience just as they age. Not to mention disabled people, adopted children of different races than their parents, and a myriad of others.

So the idea that the concept of feeling like who you really are is at odds with the body you're in is pretty far from "screaming yellow bonkers." And it's pretty hard to believe that it becomes so just because the dissonance is gender-related rather than age/ability/race/etc.-related.


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Paul Watson wrote:

Amborsia Slaad,

I think ZN is suggesting that if a setting was more "traditional Dark Ages" with a major faith persecuting homosexual characters for a while then included an out LGBT character, that would be a problem as it goes counter to the established setting, whereas Golarion doens't have that issue.

Basically this.

I mean, if the middle kingdoms of the known world(from artesia) suddenly up ended and became LGBT friendly, that would be weird, especially as it would do a lot to undermine the clash of cultures element of the setting.


Alice Margatroid wrote:

... Part of the reason they introduced a transgendered character (and, might I add, the Empyreal Lord Arshea) was because they realised (thanks to someone asking a question at a panel at a con) they didn't have such a representation yet. And look at the drama it's caused.

(I'm not sure if Miss Feathers counts...)

Also, the NPCs in Sandpoint are Cyrdak Drokkus and Jasper Korvaski. (I had to go look it up myself--it's been a while.)

Thanks for the info. I think our dm omitted it. :(


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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I want to point out that not all trans-people feel trapped in the wrong body. Some trans-people are content with their sex and their gender. They just enjoy crossdressing. Transvestites are still trans-people.

While everyone should have the right to express themselves and their sexuality and gender identity any way they like, you're technically incorrect here. Transgender and transvestite are completely different things. Neither of them are bad things, and it is okay to be either or (rare but not impossible) both of those things, but they are absolutely not the same thing.

The definition of being transgendered, a transman, a transwoman or a transperson, is that you feel your gender identity does not fit your body. You may or may not have any desire to dress in the stereotypical clothes of the other gender, but you probably do want to actually BE the other gender, the one you feel best fits your brain and your internal identity.

Someone who is a transvestite does not necessarily want to change their gender, but they derive pleasure, usually sexual pleasure, from dressing in the clothing of the opposite sex. A transperson does not feel sexual excitement or pleasure so much as simple relief when their outside appearance matches their internal gender identity. They are more likely to prefer simple male or female clothing rather than exaggeratedly 'sexy' versions of gendered clothes. Doing drag or cross dressing is its own thing. It's a valid thing, but it's not the same thing as being trans.

Quote:
I am a man in a man's body who is attracted to men and women and I enjoy dressing as a woman sometimes. To complicate things, I only enjoy being with women when I'm Bob and I only enjoy being with men when I'm Cindy. I have no idea where I fit into those four letters.

While no one else but you can tell you what your personal identity should be, some folks in a similar boat have picked descriptors like 'genderqueer' or 'genderfluid'. That's usually what I go by, followed by the explanation that I'm on the transgender spectrum but not transitioning.

Quote:
I also don't really care that much so long as I'm accepted for who I am. I find a lot of people who think I should be "choosing a team" whether it be being straight/gay or man/woman, they want me to be something I'm not.

Okay, then they're being jerks. You are allowed to be queer however you want to be queer, and that includes being genderqueer and not having to pick a team. Or a gender, for that matter.

What you probably shouldn't ought to do is to mix up labels for other people. You can be anything you want to be, and you can decide both labels are right for you, but 'transgendered' and 'transvestite' are very different things and should not be mashed together as if they were the same.


Tirisfal wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
I get that, inaction can also be highly political. I also can see you have your cause, and you think you are the good guys.

lndfkdgjdlkfaklajfhhafnaklfndlfnjdljn

So...being queer and wanting queer characters is a "political statement", but wanting exclusively "gender neutral" characters in APs because "squick, this should NEVER be about sex!" isn't a political statement?

Why is it okay for you to be able to have heroes to identify with, but its totally not cool for us to have heroes to identify with?

It seems to me that the homophobia game has changed, and the victimizes want to be the victims because reasons. ~~~I'm not personally calling YOU a homophobe, Loyalist~~ They won't out and out say that its gross anymore because that's not popular. Instead, they say things like "I don't mind gay people" or "I've lived with gay people! I know all about them!" and turn around and tell us that they don't think they should be anywhere near them or their precious RPG because its shoving it down their throats.

No one is shoving anything down your throat. We just want to be represented in our hobby the way you have been for decades. Now that we're finally getting it, we're told that we're "pushing an agenda" and that WE'RE the bigots for simply wanting to share some limelight! HOW DARE WE ask for equal billing in a FANTASY WORLD?

It took me 23 years to finally be able to identify as queer. 23 years where I was ashamed of my attraction to other men, and totally in denial because it was "wrong" to feel that way. Having a character, a HEROIC character, that I could look at and say "hey, I guess I'm not that different!" would have been amazing to have when I was growing up. It seems dumb and forceful to you because chances are, you already HAD all of that growing up.

Please, please, stop trying to make us feel like bad people for wanting to have the same things as you. Stop for one moment and realize that you have some things that you...

It is all cool jim pumpkin. I've thrown in heroic gay characters, and alas, one died from a trap recently (not a trans trap, just a plain old pit of phallic objects trap). Just saying how I see it, and considering how Hades and others see it, and why they leave/don't put LGBT into their games (although I think straight male dms have few qualms with lesbians and female bisexuality, male gaze and all that).

To your points, some will still say it is gross, but their disgust gets re-directed in different ways, and the language changes. Yes, you make a good point. The homophobe must watch their expression less mods descend with fiery wrath!

Such players if it goes too far just throw up their hands and say not listening, do not want, get/keep that out of the game. Which isn't precisely my position (L B and G representation thus far, yayifications) but I'm not porting in modern trans culture as I don't think it fits with a lot of fantasy settings (e.g. a coterie of Lastwall trans knights valiantly holding off the forces of evil, while they continue on their side quest to negotiate and find their real sexual and gender identity, which does not accord with their biological sex they were born with. Yeah, that doesn't work. It sounds like a very modern confusion and set of issues to me (post anomie and disenchantment at the very least) for trans to appear in a setting in significant numbers, i.e. they are a thing, just like they are a thing in the present. I don't think the hardy fighters of Lastwall would have such gender identity concerns.

So update rejected! Lol, kidding kidding.

Of course paizo may declare, "and in the beginning of golarion was the trans", and recent issues may make them move to make this change (c-c-c-changes). But I don't think they will be so blatant and revisionist to their own world. It is a gradual thing, at first it was quiet, now it is more obvious, now some say enough is enough (which is not my position).

Good talk.
I look forward to reading more posts on this.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
KSF wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Now, if because of recent successes in our world, a fantasy world starts changing and npcs start cropping up that seem really out of place (almost like they belong in our world, and not the fantasy setting), do you get why that may tick some people off?
And LGBT people don't belong in a fantasy setting because...?

I think his point is that LGBT people, like early horseless carriages in Pennsylvania, frighten Golarian's sensitive souls and cattle, and therefore should immediately run and hide in the roadside bushes until such genteel souls pass.

KSF wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
The offended party can feel that they signed up for heroes and villains, and not trans folk that feel more suited to a capital city and a club down the road.
You're not meaning to say that trans folk cannot be heroes or villains, are you? And you're not meaning to say that trans folk are only in capital cities and in "clubs down the road" (whatever that means)? You get that we're all over the place, and lead regular lives?
I'm thinking he has trans* people confused with some new form of lycanthropy that only appears under the light of a full disco ball, and the poor dear is caught without his +1 silver bane (trans) sword. It's ok, trans* people don't bite, except the ones into a little BDSM, and even they will ask your safeword first. Edit: Now I have a mental picture of Fremen planting thumpers to call kaiju Christine Jorgensen like a Shai Hulud.

Swords? Pah!

I stand ready to grapple.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Subudei.jpg/220px- Subudei.jpg

Seriously, never put a trans sword (a sword that changes into a spear and then changes into a pouch?) into a game, nor would I use one unless... transocalypse.


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Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

In Monte Python's The Life Of Brian there is a scene at the arena where Eric Idle's character insisted that he should 'have the right to be a woman' and 'have the right to have a baby'.

The incredulous responses are quite accurate portrayals of the responses of people nowadays, if those people haven't been educated somehow in these matters.

We can't deny the genuine incredulity of the 'average' person, but is that incredulous response right or wrong?

Discuss.

I think incredulity is valuable because it is an expression of doubt. As in, that seems off, I don't know much but I am incredulous. Please prove your case to convince me, and so on. Incredulity isn't prejudice, it is resistance to new info until it is proven.

A play
Further incredulity

A man says they are a woman, to incredibly incredulous Ian.
Ian: that doesn't seem right, you look to be a man.
Undesignated subject [error, sex not found, US will be used]: no I am a woman, I was born a woman, mentally.
Ian: but you are of the male sex yeah?
US: no.
Ian: you have male primary sexual characteristics yes? (Ian took biology, the swine!).
US: I do, but I will be getting that changed. It is a process.
Ian: a process... to match your mind to your body?
US: yes. I should be able to change in ways that fit my mind and identity.
Ian: of course, and the capitalist consumer economy is there to meet your demands by providing such services (Ian took Marxism, the pinko!).
US: so you understand a bit more, see this was educational? We aren't all bad.
Ian: partly educational, but hold the praise. I have a question. Aren't you worried about the end result of this body modification?
US: no, it is what I want, and it seems right.
Ian: seems, you could be pursuing a process that leaves you but a hollow simulacrum of female and woman. In-between, not full, a mask and an adopted role and appearance, but the transformation cannot yet be a full one (Ian took French Philosophy, the cad).
US: that is a disappointing view to hear. I just want to be happy, and I am ready to make the changes. It will put me at ease.
Ian expresses further incredulity but offers some support: I am not your enemy, and there is hope. Baudrillard says that although you are copying the real, you are attempting to form a truth, a new truth in your personification of your gender idea and identity, you are making the hyperreal!
US is suspicious: does he? He might be on to something.
Ian: yes, although a lot of people think he and other postmodern philosophers are crazy, and that they don't understand people, and certainly not the common man and woman. That they are far too embedded in the abstract and demolishment of norms.
US: yes, we face a lot of challenges, disgust and rejection.
Ian: good luck.

Silver Crusade

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Jessica Price wrote:
Heck, feeling like your body is in some way a betrayal of who you are is something that plenty of people experience just as they age. Not to mention disabled people, adopted children of different races than their parents, and a myriad of others.

I feel your pain, sister!

One morning in my late twenties I awoke to find myself in the body of a fat bastard.

Silver Crusade

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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

In Monte Python's The Life Of Brian there is a scene at the arena where Eric Idle's character insisted that he should 'have the right to be a woman' and 'have the right to have a baby'.

The incredulous responses are quite accurate portrayals of the responses of people nowadays, if those people haven't been educated somehow in these matters.

We can't deny the genuine incredulity of the 'average' person, but is that incredulous response right or wrong?

Discuss.

I think incredulity is valuable because it is an expression of doubt. As in, that seems off, I don't know much but I am incredulous. Please prove your case to convince me, and so on. Incredulity isn't prejudice, it is resistance to new info until it is proven.

A play
Further incredulity

A man says they are a woman, to incredibly incredulous Ian.
Ian: that doesn't seem right, you look to be a man.
Undesignated subject [error, sex not found, US will be used]: no I am a woman, I was born a woman, mentally.
Ian: but you are of the male sex yeah?
US: no.
Ian: you have male primary sexual characteristics yes? (Ian took biology, the swine!).
US: I do, but I will be getting that changed. It is a process.
Ian: a process... to match your mind to your body?
US: yes. I should be able to change in ways that fit my mind and identity.
Ian: of course, and the capitalist consumer economy is there to meet your demands by providing such services (Ian took Marxism, the pinko!).
US: so you understand a bit more, see this was educational? We aren't all bad.
Ian: partly educational, but hold the praise. I have a question. Aren't you worried about the end result of this body modification?
US: no, it is what I want, and it seems right.
Ian: seems, you could be pursuing a process that leaves you but a hollow simulacrum of female and woman. In-between, not full, a mask and an adopted role and appearance, but the transformation cannot yet be a full one (Ian took French Philosophy, the cad).
US: that is a...

(3:5 Loyalist took Cynicism, the bounder!)


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Irabeth Tirabade is awesome. Just sayin'.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

In Monte Python's The Life Of Brian there is a scene at the arena where Eric Idle's character insisted that he should 'have the right to be a woman' and 'have the right to have a baby'.

The incredulous responses are quite accurate portrayals of the responses of people nowadays, if those people haven't been educated somehow in these matters.

We can't deny the genuine incredulity of the 'average' person, but is that incredulous response right or wrong?

Discuss.

I think incredulity is valuable because it is an expression of doubt. As in, that seems off, I don't know much but I am incredulous. Please prove your case to convince me, and so on. Incredulity isn't prejudice, it is resistance to new info until it is proven.

A play
Further incredulity

A man says they are a woman, to incredibly incredulous Ian.
Ian: that doesn't seem right, you look to be a man.
Undesignated subject [error, sex not found, US will be used]: no I am a woman, I was born a woman, mentally.
Ian: but you are of the male sex yeah?
US: no.
Ian: you have male primary sexual characteristics yes? (Ian took biology, the swine!).
US: I do, but I will be getting that changed. It is a process.
Ian: a process... to match your mind to your body?
US: yes. I should be able to change in ways that fit my mind and identity.
Ian: of course, and the capitalist consumer economy is there to meet your demands by providing such services (Ian took Marxism, the pinko!).
US: so you understand a bit more, see this was educational? We aren't all bad.
Ian: partly educational, but hold the praise. I have a question. Aren't you worried about the end result of this body modification?
US: no, it is what I want, and it seems right.
Ian: seems, you could be pursuing a process that leaves you but a hollow simulacrum of female and woman. In-between, not full, a mask and an adopted role and appearance, but the transformation cannot yet be a full one (Ian took French Philosophy,

...

I'll add it to my special abilities.

It... was already there.


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
...but I'm not porting in modern trans culture as I don't think it fits with a lot of fantasy settings (e.g. a coterie of Lastwall trans knights valiantly holding off the forces of evil, while they continue on their side quest to negotiate and find their real sexual and gender identity, which does not accord with their biological sex they were born with. Yeah, that doesn't work. It sounds like a very modern confusion and set of issues to me (post anomie and disenchantment at the very least) for trans to appear in a setting in significant numbers, i.e. they are a thing, just like they are a thing in the present. I don't think the hardy fighters of Lastwall would have such gender identity concerns.

First the "club scene" reference and now "coterie"? You do realize that RuPaul's Drag Race and pride parades and urban ball culture are a tiny, tiny part of what could be lumped together as "trans* culture," right? And in a lot of ways, those events seem to be a majority of gay males who just chose to perform in drag. And if you didn't know, here it is: gay males in drag trans*.

Here's another thing from Trans* 101: it may seem like there very few trans* people around you because most of them transiton to living as their mental identity and live quietly, stealthily doing all the same mundane stuff that non-trans* people stuff do. Trans peeps have been among us for thousands of years generally not drawing attention to themselves, because (especially in Western & predominantly Christian cultures) drawing attention to themselves paints a target on them for verbal and physical abuse.

As for Lastwall, a large chunk of modern and historical trans* people served in the military at some point (see TAVA and OUTSERVE and others), so I'd be quite accurate to see trans people on the front lines at Lastwall of the Worldwound. Trans* people have the same capacity to do good and be heroic as any other human being.


TanithT wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I want to point out that not all trans-people feel trapped in the wrong body. Some trans-people are content with their sex and their gender. They just enjoy crossdressing. Transvestites are still trans-people.

While everyone should have the right to express themselves and their sexuality and gender identity any way they like, you're technically incorrect here. Transgender and transvestite are completely different things. Neither of them are bad things, and it is okay to be either or (rare but not impossible) both of those things, but they are absolutely not the same thing.

The definition of being transgendered, a transman, a transwoman or a transperson, is that you feel your gender identity does not fit your body. You may or may not have any desire to dress in the stereotypical clothes of the other gender, but you probably do want to actually BE the other gender, the one you feel best fits your brain and your internal identity.

Someone who is a transvestite does not necessarily want to change their gender, but they derive pleasure, usually sexual pleasure, from dressing in the clothing of the opposite sex. A transperson does not feel sexual excitement or pleasure so much as simple relief when their outside appearance matches their internal gender identity. They are more likely to prefer simple male or female clothing rather than exaggeratedly 'sexy' versions of gendered clothes. Doing drag or cross dressing is its own thing. It's a valid thing, but it's not the same thing as being trans.

That's why I never said I was transgender. I used the term trans-person because transvestite is also acceptable by some groups. I spent a lot of time trying to find out what the LGBT was all about and the T seems to have some fluidity to its definition. That's part of the problem. Everyone wants to fit people into perfect definitions but it doesn't work. Even the community can't decide on how to include people.

Quote:
While no one else but you can tell you what your personal identity should be, some folks in a similar boat have picked descriptors like 'genderqueer' or 'genderfluid'. That's usually what...

I've stopped trying to label myself because that just requires me to go even further into trying to explain things to people who don't understand. The more we try to fit people into labels, the harder it is for some people to fit in. That was my problem for a long time. I've looked at the alphabet soup of labels and I got more confused than anything else. Asking people in the community who should know didn't help matters at all. I know what I'm not but I don't know what I am.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


Actually, I stand behind "screaming yellow bonkers." If you want me to use more technical language, "sufferering from a clinical mental illness listed in the most recent edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders of the APA under the heading 'gender dysphoria.'"

You're citing language in the DSM IV as a reason Joe Offthestreet is going to look at what they said as weird? How many average Joes have even heard of the DSM IV?

Lord, no. Joe Offthestreet already think that transpeople are weird. And the Republican propaganda machine is going to encourage him in that belief, and seize on anything it can find to do it.

And language like "born in the wrong body" is one thing it's happy to seize on, because Mr. Offthestreet doesn't know the in-group language, and is going to find the concept not merely disturbing, but actively nonsensical. So if he wants to know whether transgendered people are actively crazy, then he goes to the DSM.

And actually that's why it was renamed and moved in the DSM5, published in May. It is no longer a disorder, because that implies something wrong in the brain that can be treated with drugs and therapy and changed. While Gender Dysphoria (the new and current name) is treated with therapy and drugs (Hormone Replacement Therapy) it's more about helping the person down the road of transition to help their body match their mind. It was also moved into it's own separate chapter, apart from the Sexual Dysfunctions and Paraphillic Disorders that it once was grouped with. You can see more here: Gender Dysphoria in DSM5

KSF wrote:


You probably know this, but it's still not great for a lot of trans people (or LGB people, for that matter). Most states don't have job protection for gender identity, so it's easy, and not uncommon, for people to be fired once they out themselves.

I know this all to well. About two years ago, I was fired for coming out to my employer at the time as trans. His exact words were "I run a family business, and I don't want to have to explain to mothers with their children why I employ you." But it's getting better. While most states don't have that protection, a lot of big companies do, including the two places I've worked since. And it's getting better on the legal front as well. Recent decisions in the Glenn and Macy cases supporting transgender protections in the workplace and support from the EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) in determining that firing someone for their gender identity is a protected status under Title VII on the grounds of sexual discrimination in the workplace show us that the culture is moving, even in states such as Georgia and South Dakota. For those interested in the topic, stay tuned to Lambda Legal's blog and announcements in the coming weeks, as another big win is going to be announced soon.


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Ian: partly educational, but hold the praise. I have a question. Aren't you worried about the end result of this body modification?

US: no, it is what I want, and it seems right.
Ian: seems, you could be pursuing a process that leaves you but a hollow simulacrum of female and woman. In-between, not full, a mask and an adopted role and appearance, but the transformation cannot yet be a full one (Ian took French Philosophy, the cad).

Also from Trans 101: Transition is not just hormone therapy and medical procedures, it is spending time living as one's mental identity and interacting as such with the rest of the world. Again, most trans* people whenever possible perform this interaction without drawing attention to themselves.

As for "Ian" and the "hollow simulacrum of female and woman. In-between, not full, a mask and an adopted role and appearance, but the transformation cannot yet be a full one" crack, trans* people don't do this for kicks or some sexual fetish or for attention. The ones that transition do it because their brain is constantly reporting that their physical body's birth sex doesn't fit their physical brain sex, and transitioning is the only way to rectify the problem. A post-transition trans* person does not normally feel like they are living as a simulacrum or in-between; they instead report a sense of relief and happiness that their body and life finally match their brain sex.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
...but I'm not porting in modern trans culture as I don't think it fits with a lot of fantasy settings (e.g. a coterie of Lastwall trans knights valiantly holding off the forces of evil, while they continue on their side quest to negotiate and find their real sexual and gender identity, which does not accord with their biological sex they were born with. Yeah, that doesn't work. It sounds like a very modern confusion and set of issues to me (post anomie and disenchantment at the very least) for trans to appear in a setting in significant numbers, i.e. they are a thing, just like they are a thing in the present. I don't think the hardy fighters of Lastwall would have such gender identity concerns.

First the "club scene" reference and now "coterie"? You do realize that RuPaul's Drag Race and pride parades and urban ball culture are a tiny, tiny part of what could be lumped together as "trans* culture," right? And in a lot of ways, those events seem to be a majority of gay males who just chose to perform in drag. And if you didn't know, here it is: gay males in drag trans*.

Here's another thing from Trans* 101: it may seem like there very few trans* people around you because most of them transiton to living as their mental identity and live quietly, stealthily doing all the same mundane stuff that non-trans* people stuff do. Trans peeps have been among us for thousands of years generally not drawing attention to themselves, because (especially in Western & predominantly Christian cultures) drawing attention to themselves paints a target on them for verbal and physical abuse.

As for Lastwall, a large chunk of modern and historical trans* people served in the military at some point (see TAVA and OUTSERVE and others), so I'd be quite accurate to see trans people on the front lines at Lastwall of the Worldwound. Trans* people have the same capacity to do good and be heroic as any other human being.

Are you denying trans visit clubs, hang out, have fun?

Does coterie not work for a group of trans knights, when coterie means "A small group of people with shared interests or tastes, esp. one that is exclusive of other people."

It totally fits for what is being discussed, beware of playing pedantic word games when there are real issues to discuss.

Military
Sorry, while you can try to say, look at our military now, there are trans there so there should be trans in Lastwall, it does not follow. Lastwall is not the military of the U.S.A or Australia, or Belgium or Thailand. The material for Lastwall knights has not mentioned the trans battalion or a trans hero. That is just how it is at present. Should they be inserted in? Perhaps. Will it fit? I think it runs the risk of being a retroactive shoehorn, and I don't think it works with the grim knights in a simple lawful good vs evil existence of survival. As you've got to ask, do they even have the time or inclination to worry about their body not matching their mind? Is this a problem they even have? This modern obsession for a range of people (and by obsession I mean gender dysphoria and the fixation upon an abstract idea and feelings being more real than biology and primary sexual characteristics) may just not gel with the setting, i.e. in the grim castles of Lastwall, knights, soldiers and the mercantile agents that supply the castles all worry about gender and appearance, and want to become the opposite sex. Does that sound like it works for you? It doesn't for me. I gets far away from everything I have read about what Lastwall is about.

So, by all means, summon sudden trans cavalry detachment, or a hero char that seems distracted with the daily concerns of a minority in this world. If you really want that, make the case to the paizo leadership, and put it in your games while you wait. I wish you well in your representation endeavour, but I disagree.


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TanithT wrote:

While everyone should have the right to express themselves and their sexuality and gender identity any way they like, you're technically incorrect here. Transgender and transvestite are completely different things. Neither of them are bad things, and it is okay to be either or (rare but not impossible) both of those things, but they are absolutely not the same thing.

The definition of being transgendered, a transman, a transwoman or a transperson, is that you feel your gender identity does not fit your body. You may or may not have any desire to dress in the stereotypical clothes of the other gender, but you probably do want to actually BE the other gender, the one you feel best fits your brain and your internal identity.

I've seen some debate on that in the past couple years, about just who fits in under the transgender umbrella. Some include cross dressers, some don't. I've even seen posts or comments by a few transsexuals (usually mtf) who are adamant they don't want to be considered or labelled transgender. (I think they tend to be people who transitioned prior to the term transgender gaining currency.) I was under the impression that the "trans*" term arose partly in response to some of this (and to be inclusive of genderqueer people).

There are also some people who initially believe they're cross dressers but eventually realize they're transgender and then transition.


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
but I'm not porting in modern trans culture as I don't think it fits with a lot of fantasy settings (e.g. a coterie of Lastwall trans knights valiantly holding off the forces of evil, while they continue on their side quest to negotiate and find their real sexual and gender identity, which does not accord with their biological sex they were born with. Yeah, that doesn't work. It sounds like a very modern confusion and set of issues to me (post anomie and disenchantment at the very least) for trans to appear in a setting in significant numbers, i.e. they are a thing, just like they are a thing in the present.

I don't think the experience of realizing one is transgender has much to do with any sort of modern "anomie and disenchantment." It tends to first hit people when they're young, before there's been much of a chance for anything like that to occur. Sometimes real young, like 3 or 4, sometimes just before the start of adolescence, like 11 or 12. (That's when it was for me.)

The current language to describe the experience may not have been around, sure. Some of it wasn't around yet when I first realized something was up. But based on my own experience, and on the accounts of other transsexuals I've read, I'd guess this was going on long before the modern era. (Go back and look at the study Todd Stewart posted earlier - it offers evidence that this is not simply a social issue.)

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
I don't think the hardy fighters of Lastwall would have such gender identity concerns.

Plenty of people currently or recently in the military are transgender. Here's one, former Navy SEAL Kristin Beck.

Edit to add:
In her own words:

Kristin Beck wrote:

I served in the US military for 20 years. I knew I was transgender from an early age.

Due to family, society and then, later, military pressure and expectations, I kept my feelings to myself. It was difficult, but for 40-plus years, I lived as a fully-functioning male in life and the military. I had my share of issues because of my internal struggle. There were some unintended consequences because of my struggle, but my gender did not make me into anything that I was not.

Gender is something you are born with and it is not a simple binary model, as many people wish it were. Being transgender, or outside of the pure male or female construct, is a way of life; it is a human condition that has been with us since the beginning of time.

There's also this series of studies that's getting underway, which will essentially look at whether or not to extend the repeal of DADT to transgender soldiers in the US military.

Another recent study indicated that trans Americans are twice as likely to serve in the military as non-trans Americans.

Being a hardy fighter or soldier is not incompatible with gender identity concerns. There's no reason some of the soldiers in Lastwall couldn't be transgender.

(And from the way you phrased it, it also seems you're not considering the possibility of transmen (female to male transsexuals) who might enlist.)


Cori Marie wrote:
I know this all to well. About two years ago, I was fired for coming out to my employer at the time as trans. His exact words were "I run a family business, and I don't want to have to explain to mothers with their children why I employ you." But it's getting better.

Sorry you had to go through that. And yeah, the EEOC thing was big. And one of these days, ENDA will get through, I'm sure.

I'll keep an eye out for the Lambda Legal announcement, thanks.


Alice Margatroid wrote:

Uhhhhh you do realise the very first issue of the Pathfinder AP had a gay couple in it, right?

It has been like this all along.

CONSPIRACY!!!


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Are you denying trans visit clubs, hang out, have fun?

Eh, I go to the bar with my friends. I wouldn't call that clubbing, in the sense you seem to be talking about. They're not those kind of bars. People in them are usually drinking or eating or playing pool.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
I think it runs the risk of being a retroactive shoehorn, and I don't think it works with the grim knights in a simple lawful good vs evil existence of survival. As you've got to ask, do they even have the time or inclination to worry about their body not matching their mind? Is this a problem they even have?

How is that any different from trans people in the real world who have to focus on their jobs and whatever other day to day concerns they have in order to keep a roof over their heads, accomplish what they want to accomplish in life, etc? And are the "grim knights" of Lastwall all that different than the modern Navy SEALs? Those people are hardcore warriors. And at least one of them has been transgender. That's simply a fact.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
This modern obsession for a range of people (and by obsession I mean gender dysphoria and the fixation upon an abstract idea and feelings being more real than biology and primary sexual characteristics) may just not gel with the setting, i.e. in the grim castles of Lastwall, knights, soldiers and the mercantile agents that supply the castles all worry about gender and appearance, and want to become the opposite sex. Does that sound like it works for you? It doesn't for me. I gets far away from everything I have read about what Lastwall is about.

Again, read up on the science of transgender. There are indications that there is a biological basis for it. And trust me, you can worry about your gender issues while going about your daily business, even in difficult times.


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Gorbacz wrote:

Folks, 3.5 Sexologist will, always, to the death, defend anybody critical of what Paizo writes in their books. What they are actually critical about is of secondary importance, the point is that people who speak negatively of products with the purple golem logo need a champion and a defender, and there he is. You know, because that rabid army of fanboys needs to be balanced by somebody with a refined mind and sharp wit yadda yadda. That's pretty much his MO since day one here :)

I assumed that with the whole "3.5 loyalist" screenname.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
KSF wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Now, if because of recent successes in our world, a fantasy world starts changing and npcs start cropping up that seem really out of place (almost like they belong in our world, and not the fantasy setting), do you get why that may tick some people off?
And LGBT people don't belong in a fantasy setting because...?
I think his point is that LGBT people, like early horseless carriages in Pennsylvania, frighten Golarian's sensitive souls and cattle, and therefore should immediately run and hide in the roadside bushes until such genteel souls pass.

hides under the bed

KSF wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
The offended party can feel that they signed up for heroes and villains, and not trans folk that feel more suited to a capital city and a club down the road.
You're not meaning to say that trans folk cannot be heroes or villains, are you? And you're not meaning to say that trans folk are only in capital cities and in "clubs down the road" (whatever that means)? You get that we're all over the place, and lead regular lives?
I'm thinking he has trans* people confused with some new form of lycanthropy that only appears under the light of a full disco ball, and the poor dear is caught without his +1 silver bane (trans) sword. It's ok, trans* people don't bite, except the ones into a little BDSM, and even they will ask your safeword first. Edit: Now I have a mental picture of Fremen planting thumpers to call kaiju Christine Jorgensen like a Shai Hulud.

this...is... AWESOME!!!!!@

Contributor

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3.5 Loyalist wrote:


As you've got to ask, do they even have the time or inclination to worry about their body not matching their mind? Is this a problem they even have? This modern obsession for a range of people (and by obsession I mean gender dysphoria and the fixation upon an abstract idea and feelings being more real than biology and primary sexual characteristics)

It's not a "fixation upon an abstract idea and feelings being more real than biology" because it's a physical issue with a measurable biological root cause. The gender dysphoria a transperson experiences is just as real as the phantom limb pain someone missing an arm feels.

Just as their ghostly sensations on a limb that isn't physically there is caused by bleedover from surroundings neurons into the regions formerly responsible for that limb's sensory processing, a transperson's gender dysphoria is likewise caused (all or in part) by portions of their neural architecture resembling those of the gender opposite the rest of their body, and it's something that is apparently set in place during fetal development and hardwired prior to birth.

This isn't a feelings issue, nor is it a modern issue. It's part of being human (and almost certainly not isolated to our species either), and it's a very physical as opposed to an abstract cause. The research is out there if you want to educate yourself on the topic (I'd suggest also looking at papers examining sexual orientation and the brain, as they may originate with associated causal mechanisms just at different stages of in-utero development).


Celestial Healer wrote:

Like Alice, I like to think that my life, my relationships, and the mere fact that I exist is not a de facto political statement. It saddens me that it can be viewed that way.

If a Paizo product made a statement in favor of legalizing gay marriage in the US or extending protections against employment discrimination, that would be political. The statement that "gay people exist" is not political.

hm. I have had at least one person try to get into a relationship with me as a statement, but I think it was more "f$++ you dad!!!!!" than anything political. I have also had people attempt to use me as a model for his black people should act, among other things. I got into a famous debate with another black player on these boards about it.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
KSF wrote:
What are transwomen doing for the equivalent of electrolysis in Golarion, those that don't have access to a magic whammy to do the full change? I mean, I guess there's always close shaving and careful makeup application. But I wonder if there's any tiered set of economic options like in the real world?

My understanding is that depilatory creams date back to Ancient Egypt at least. (The chemicals involved were quicklime or vinegar, I believe.) So there'd be no problem with buying the Cheliax version of Nair, especially with the toys that alchemists can produce in Pathfinder. My understanding is that they've got better hangover cures than we do... so better Nair wouldn't surprise me.

this fascinates me in several levels, primarily because golarion is a high magic world.

Are there trans folk saving up money to afford the spell? And would it be one spell out several? Would there be social stigma attached? I know second ed touched on this none too gently with the semi canon girdle as well as a few interpretations of alter self, but has anything shown up in golarion for it?


Samnell wrote:

I'll admit it: I think I'm the good guy.

I think I'm the good guy because the other guys are the people who find my very existence profoundly offensive and want never to be reminded of it, as if I were rape or genocide personified. But they only want that because they have, in my country, lost the ability to end it at will. They have, more recently, lost the ability to imprison me for it or fine me for it. They have still not quite lost the ability to fire me for it.

They are aggrieved that I exist, but if I must exist then I must exist in the maximum possible state of misery and deprivation. I must exist in hiding, or else. If they can't have that, I must exist only to sit in the bathtub and apply the razor blade. There, I'm sure, I would find charity. I could slash however I liked, the fast way or the way that takes a long time. Either one is cool by them.

They can go right on thinking they're the good guys. They always have. They can go right on telling themselves that since they haven't personally beaten anyone to death that what they do in the ballot box, on message boards, and elsewhere has nothing to do with all of that and they are not at all of the same party. They have nothing personally against us, but they don't want is dirtying up their RPG products with our presence or dirtying up their marriages by sharing the word or dirtying up their swimming pools or teaching their children or breathing their air.

They can tell their own fables. We don't have to pretend to believe them.

wow.


Generic Villain wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

Personally, I find it ludicrous because I don't think the body that you have is teleological. I don't recall ordering the body I have out of a catalog, and there's certainly no shop to which I can return it because I wanted it to be four inches taller. I'm not especially religious, and I don't think there's anyone to "pick" a body for me.

There but for the grace of God go you. Or, consider yourself lucky that you aren't in their position, because you would most assureadly say differently. It's so very easy to dismiss others when you don't have to experience what they do.

Consider body integrity identity disorder, wherein the sufferer is convinced that one or more of their limbs do not belong to them. So intense is this feeling that sufferers have considered, and even carried out, the amputation of a healthy limb. Do you think these people would take such extreme measures were it not for comparably extreme feelings? You might find the idea of one of your limbs not belonging to you "ludicrous," but again, just be thankful that you are free to be ignorant on the matter.

Because guess what? The brain is an extraordinarily complex organ. It's easy to take it for granted when everything's running smoothly, but the moment there's a glitch, the whole world can suddenly turn on its head. Lose a limb and you might be stuck with phantom limb syndrome. How ludicrous is that? Feeling a limb that you don't even have. Or better yet, how about supernumerary phantom limb, wherein you are convinced of having a limb that was never there to begin with. Ludicrous right? Or hey, if you fall and hit your head even slightly, or have a stroke, your entire personality can change utterly and entirely. You could be...

there was an episode of some throwaway show on tlc that showed a man who had an issue in that he hated one of his legs. He had attempted to remove it several times over the years in staged accidents, and finally really did cut it entirely off one day, almost losing his life. An mri was done, and it revealed that his brain actually did not "see" the limb, which would explain the loathing he felt for it-it really wasn't supposed to be there, according to his internal manifest. He is much happier now, without the leg.


Set wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Hmmm, I bet Cheliaxian or Nexian well-to-do folk with easy access to an extended alter self might throw gender bender or "ethnicity bender" parties, maybe even spend an evening temporarily polymorphed into tieflings or halflings. How scandalous!

[game tangent in non-game thread]

It might even be fashionable to do so to add fuel to their own dismissal of the plight of those they oppress. Just as a bigot in the modern day might say, 'I'm not a racist, I have black friends,' before saying something totally racist, a Chelaxian might spend a few hours in the guise of a Halfling at a 'let's all be halflings' BDSM party, and then use that experience to *completely* dismiss the plight of Halflings in Cheliax, because he's 'done that, and it wasn't so bad.'

Of course he 'did that' in a controlled environment, by his own choosing, for a couple of hours, with full knowledge that it was going to wear off and he was going to go back to being an entitled prat with more gold than sense.

On the other side of the fence, a 'tourist' 'great white hope' abolitionist from Andoran might do the exact same thing, and then brag about how he'd 'walked a mile in their little shoes' to 'prove' how enlightened he was and 'share their burden,' while the halflings he works with shake their heads quietly and try not to correct him on how he is missing the point entirely.

"No really, I went to a Halloween party once dressed as a girl. I totally get what you trans people go through your entire lives." :/
[/game tangent in non-game thread]

I will be using this in game.


Mark Sweetman wrote:

Just popping in to say hi.

I wish that I was more eloquent and able to appropriately communicate support for the Paizo family being as wide and inclusive as possible, as well as for the fight being fought for normal to be seen as normal. But fancy words are hard... so I'll just go with hi.

I'm in a part of the world (SE Asia - specifically Malaysia) where LGBT issues are still at the height of bigotry... but there is still an undercurrent for change and strength of community.

Thought I'd share what I thought was a good-news response to a recent hate campaign where seminars were held to teach parents how to identify gay kids. (Which I found slightly hilarious that 'attracted to men' only shows up third on the list for 'symptoms' - below wearing v-necks and tight clothes).

A local restaurant decided to make fun of the guidelines by giving away free food to anyone who fit the 'guidelines'.

Along with the inevitable memes that sprung up as well.

Hope that if not a chuckle it at least raised a smile.

looks down at vneck sweater uh-oh...


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
...but I'm not porting in modern trans culture as I don't think it fits with a lot of fantasy settings (e.g. a coterie of Lastwall trans knights valiantly holding off the forces of evil, while they continue on their side quest to negotiate and find their real sexual and gender identity, which does not accord with their biological sex they were born with. Yeah, that doesn't work. It sounds like a very modern confusion and set of issues to me (post anomie and disenchantment at the very least) for trans to appear in a setting in significant numbers, i.e. they are a thing, just like they are a thing in the present. I don't think the hardy fighters of Lastwall would have such gender identity concerns.

First the "club scene" reference and now "coterie"? You do realize that RuPaul's Drag Race and pride parades and urban ball culture are a tiny, tiny part of what could be lumped together as "trans* culture," right? And in a lot of ways, those events seem to be a majority of gay males who just chose to perform in drag. And if you didn't know, here it is: gay males in drag trans*.

Here's another thing from Trans* 101: it may seem like there very few trans* people around you because most of them transiton to living as their mental identity and live quietly, stealthily doing all the same mundane stuff that non-trans* people stuff do. Trans peeps have been among us for thousands of years generally not drawing attention to themselves, because (especially in Western & predominantly Christian cultures) drawing attention to themselves paints a target on them for verbal and physical abuse.

As for Lastwall, a large chunk of modern and historical trans* people served in the military at some point (see TAVA and OUTSERVE and others), so I'd be quite accurate to see trans people on the front lines at Lastwall of the Worldwound. Trans* people have the same capacity to do good and be heroic as any other human being.

I'm all for the term, primarily because the idea fascinates and I have not used the word since white wolf days!

Dark Archive

Freehold DM wrote:
there was an episode of some throwaway show on tlc that showed a man who had an issue in that he hated one of his legs. He had attempted to remove it several times over the years in staged accidents, and finally really did cut it entirely off one day, almost losing his life. An mri was done, and it revealed that his brain actually did not "see" the limb, which would explain the loathing he felt for it-it really wasn't supposed to be there, according to his internal manifest. He is much happier now, without the leg.

That is crazy creepy and yet fascinating... Wow. I'd heard about it on some terrible TV serial, but never thought of it in connection to the brain not recognizing that limb as 'self.' Is it as simple as being some sort of proprioceptive disorder?


Jessica Price wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
KSF wrote:
Generic Villain wrote:
There but for the grace of God go you. Or, consider yourself lucky that you aren't in their position, because you would most assureadly say differently. It's so very easy to dismiss others when you don't have to experience what they do.

To be fair to Orfamy Quest, it can be difficult to wrap your head around if you haven't experienced it, or don't know someone experiencing it. It would, however, be cool if he did attempt to do so.

Alternatively, you could read what I actually wrote, and realize that if you're trying to persuade people that you're normal, using language that sounds to the uninitiated like you're screaming yellow bonkers is not necessarily the first and best option.

"I wear underwear on my head because I like it" makes sense even if the listener is normally dressed.

"I wear underwear on my head because I have the wrong body configuration"... Well, let me just say that that may be useful as a metaphor. That's about all I can say for it, though.

"Screaming yellow bonkers"?

Ok, I'll be the first to admit I can't speak for trans people, not being one, but I'm unclear as to what makes the concept of feeling like you were born into the wrong gender body so hard to understand or difficult to empathize with.

The idea of people body-switching has been the subject of enough movies, tv shows and books (and a few dramas/horror movies), and the discomfort of it is pretty clearly portrayed in all those media. The discomfort of people who have had to pretend to be the opposite sex for whatever reason (safety, escape from bad circumstances, etc.) has been pretty clearly both documented and imagined in history and in fiction.

Heck, feeling like your body is in some way a betrayal of who you are is something that plenty of people experience just as they age. Not to mention disabled people, adopted children of different races than their parents, and a myriad of others.

So the idea...

I can see where they are coming from regarding the vocabulary, slang and use of acronyms- it can be really off-putting and even intentionally alienating, and i work in a field that make use of them constantly with a shifting P(rofessionally)C vocabulary.

Also, I really miss screaming yellow zonkers.


Aaand I'm caught up on one of my favorite threads. Yay.


Set wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
there was an episode of some throwaway show on tlc that showed a man who had an issue in that he hated one of his legs. He had attempted to remove it several times over the years in staged accidents, and finally really did cut it entirely off one day, almost losing his life. An mri was done, and it revealed that his brain actually did not "see" the limb, which would explain the loathing he felt for it-it really wasn't supposed to be there, according to his internal manifest. He is much happier now, without the leg.

That is crazy creepy and yet fascinating... Wow. I'd heard about it on some terrible TV serial, but never thought of it in connection to the brain not recognizing that limb as 'self.' Is it as simple as being some sort of proprioceptive disorder?

possibly. It was a fascinating episode.


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Are you denying trans visit clubs, hang out, have fun?

Does coterie not work for a group of trans knights, when coterie means "A small group of people with shared interests or tastes, esp. one that is exclusive of other people."

It totally fits for what is being discussed, beware of playing pedantic word games when there are real issues to discuss.

You keep ignoring the context in which you yourself are using those words in your attempt to set up some association fallacy with stereotypical club scene people or as exclusionary clique. Perhaps you should endeavor to better choose your words so as not to bias other readers to your true intentions.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Military

Sorry, while you can try to say, look at our military now, there are trans there so there should be trans in Lastwall, it does not follow. Lastwall is not the military of the U.S.A or Australia, or Belgium or Thailand. The material for Lastwall knights has not mentioned the trans battalion or a trans hero. That is just how it is at present.

So you're using an absence of evidence as your evidence for absence? What of the hundreds of women who posed as men and served in the U.S. Civil War? What of Joan of Arc? Chevalier d'Eon? Enrique Favez? Catherina Linck? Hua Mulan? James Barry? Jack Bee Garland? Epipole of Carystus? Jeanne de Clisson? How many names and how far back will it take to meet your criteria?

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Should they be inserted in? Perhaps. Will it fit? I think it runs the risk of being a retroactive shoehorn, and I don't think it works with the grim knights in a simple lawful good vs evil existence of survival. As you've got to ask, do they even have the time or inclination to worry about their body not matching their mind? Is this a problem they even have? This modern obsession for a range of people (and by obsession I mean gender dysphoria and the fixation upon an abstract idea and feelings being more real than biology and primary sexual characteristics) may just not gel with the setting, i.e. in the grim castles of Lastwall, knights, soldiers and the mercantile agents that supply the castles all worry about gender and appearance, and want to become the opposite sex. Does that sound like it works for you? It doesn't for me. I gets far away from everything I have read about what Lastwall is about.

So trans* people can't be soldiers? Can't be heroic? Can't fit in grim survival scenarios? Why not? Why is a trans* hero's or soldier's sense of identity more abstract than a cisgender one's? Why is it more abstract somehow than your own? Do you seriously believe that a trans* soldier is incapable of serving in combat roles without being preoccupied by their body/brain discongruence?

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
So, by all means, summon sudden trans cavalry detachment, or a hero char that seems distracted with the daily concerns of a minority in this world. If you really want that, make the case to the paizo leadership, and put it in your games while you wait. I wish you well in your representation endeavour, but I disagree.

Who the hell is advocating for any of your strawman arguments? All I'm saying is that trans* people have served and continue to serve in military forces, not is special regiments or groups, but as individual soldiers interspersed among the rest of the troops, quietly serving as capable soldiers.


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
It sounds like a very modern confusion and set of issues to me (post anomie and disenchantment at the very least) for trans to appear in a setting in significant numbers, i.e. they are a thing, just like they are a thing in the present.

You are factually, materially, historically, scientifically and offensively incorrect. I strongly recommend you take the time to do a reality check before making these kinds of pronouncements.

Grand Lodge

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TanithT wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
It sounds like a very modern confusion and set of issues to me (post anomie and disenchantment at the very least) for trans to appear in a setting in significant numbers, i.e. they are a thing, just like they are a thing in the present.
You are factually, materially, historically, scientifically and offensively incorrect. I strongly recommend you take the time to do a reality check before making these kinds of pronouncements.

It's an actual, historical fact that transgender priests and priestesses existed in Sumer and Akkadia - the Kurgarra (FTM) and Galatur (MTF). There were the Semnatatoi of Hekate (MTF) in Greece, and the Gallae of the Magna Mater (MTF) in Rome. In places that did not Christianize under Constantine's rule, transgender identities remained present and widely accepted until European Imperialism displaced them in the 1600s-1800s.


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Cool...
Loving the history. Thank you Kitty.
Also, GO TRANS BATTALION(Coterie)!!

Grand Lodge

Freehold DM wrote:

Cool...

Loving the history. Thank you Kitty.
Also, GO TRANS BATTALION(Coterie)!!

Since there's at least three deities (Shelyn, Desna and Iomedae) in the Pathfinder 'verse that are trans-accepting and an Empyreal Lord (Arshea) that specifically blesses trans people, I cannot particularly imagine that the same prejudices that have dominated since Constantine's time in our world would hold true in Golarion.


Kittyburger wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

Cool...

Loving the history. Thank you Kitty.
Also, GO TRANS BATTALION(Coterie)!!
Since there's at least three deities (Shelyn, Desna and Iomedae) in the Pathfinder 'verse that are trans-accepting and an Empyreal Lord (Arshea) that specifically blesses trans people, I cannot particularly imagine that the same prejudices that have dominated since Constantine's time in our world would hold true in Golarion.

in Kingmaker, there is at least one npc who is involved with another npc of the same gender who has not told their father because he would not approve. There are closed minded/tradition fetishists in tha ap at least.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
What of the hundreds of women who posed as men and served in the U.S. Civil War? What of Joan of Arc? Chevalier d'Eon? Enrique Favez? Catherina Linck? Hua Mulan? James Barry? Jack Bee Garland? Epipole of Carystus? Jeanne de Clisson? How many names and how far back will it take to meet your criteria?

Not that this has much to do with anything, but there are dozens of (mainly Napoleonic era?) folk songs that deal with that phenomenon - see The Female Drummer (sung by Steeleye Span here) for example.

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Kittyburger wrote:
TanithT wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
It sounds like a very modern confusion and set of issues to me (post anomie and disenchantment at the very least) for trans to appear in a setting in significant numbers, i.e. they are a thing, just like they are a thing in the present.
You are factually, materially, historically, scientifically and offensively incorrect. I strongly recommend you take the time to do a reality check before making these kinds of pronouncements.
It's an actual, historical fact that transgender priests and priestesses existed in Sumer and Akkadia - the Kurgarra (FTM) and Galatur (MTF). There were the Semnatatoi of Hekate (MTF) in Greece, and the Gallae of the Magna Mater (MTF) in Rome. In places that did not Christianize under Constantine's rule, transgender identities remained present and widely accepted until European Imperialism displaced them in the 1600s-1800s.

Also the hijra in India, and several different groups of people among Native Americans.


Kittyburger wrote:
Since there's at least three deities (Shelyn, Desna and Iomedae) in the Pathfinder 'verse that are trans-accepting and an Empyreal Lord (Arshea) that specifically blesses trans people, I cannot particularly imagine that the same prejudices that have dominated since Constantine's time in our world would hold true in Golarion.

That kind of settles it then, doesn't it, at least as far as Golarion is concerned. Trans people are part of the official Pathfinder setting and at least common enough in that setting that there's an Empyreal Lord who is concerned with their well-being.


The problem I have with the term "transgender" is, to me, that is assumes a state of acceptance of gender identities firmly ensconced in western ideology, whereas in some cultures there are more than just two gender identities and this, again to me, implies that in ancient cultures what we are calling "transgendered" might actually have simply been another accepted gender identity or gender role. What we want to identify in our culture today as “transgender” may be to complex and divergent for us to put simple labels upon.

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Terquem wrote:
The problem I have with the term "transgender" is, to me, that is assumes a state of acceptance of gender identities firmly ensconced in western ideology, whereas in some cultures there are more than just two gender identities and this, again to me, implies that in ancient cultures what we are calling "transgendered" might actually have simply been another accepted gender identity or gender role. What we want to identify in our culture today as “transgender” may be to complex and divergent for us to put simple labels upon.

Gender isn't exactly a construct of western ideology, but rather a construct of biology/neural architecture that creates a continuum with two gender poles at either end. It might be a fluid continuum with social factors influencing how we describe where we fall on that continuum, letting us use whatever names we care to assign, or it may be more properly a case of being on a continuum with a threshold of sorts of feminized/masculinized brain structure to meet before we feel comfortable or not with external biology versus internal.

Science versus sociology. Fight. Sort of.

We can make up names to fit a phenomenon subject to cultural whimsy, but this one has a measurable, discrete substance. To an extent of how you define the meaning of the word gender, it does have physical corollaries in the brain.

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