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When anyone claims that being cynical about a particular issue does not do anything productive, I am wondering how it ever was suggested that being cynical is supposed to do something productive, and that a cynical attitude toward a particular issue does not imply an overall position of absolute cynicism.

It is not my intention to imply that I am trying to harm you by my skeptical, cynical attitude toward your claims (and it is a simple fact of life that people will be skeptical of any and all claims an individual makes about themselves, that is the cultural phenomena of the unreliable first person narrator).

However, I will maintain my cynicism, and be confident that it does you no harm, and does not need to be productive. I would not challenge you or anyone to “prove” to me that they are who or what they claim to be, as (hold onto your hat) I generally do not believe that anyone is who and what they claim to be, on the internet, and I allow you, and will continue to allow everyone to make any and all claims they wish to make with the understanding that it is unnecessary for you to prove anything to me, and that I may believe whatever I want to believe about your claims.


Jessica Price wrote:
Incidentally, maybe Bioware is no longer the only major video game company that's trying to do better on this stuff: http://imgur.com/a/6Pcd2 :-)

Awesome. That kind of thing would have been so helpful when I was growing up.

Contributor

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Terquem wrote:

but specifically I am curious as to how often Gender Identity is connected to Sexual Orientation. How many people who feel that they would be happier if they could transition to the opposite sex are still sexually attracted to the sex that they desire to transition to or are sexually attracted to both male and female, and their Gender Identity is not connected to this?

As others have mentioned, it isn't connected. The portions of the brain responsible for internal gender identity and for sexual orientation appear to be distinct from one another as best we know at present.

That being said, there do appear to be common or overlapping underlying mechanisms that cause those brain differences observed between transgendered and non-heterosexual persons compared to cis and hetero persons. Researchers are still trying to work down the specifics here, and the fact that studies don't always account for the brain differences in non-hetero subjects when looking for brain differences solely attributable to a transgendered condition, it makes things very complicated.

As best we know currently, sexual orientation doesn't change. The neural architecture appears hardwired prior to birth. However it's certainly plausible that a person's response to their own feelings on that can be modified through the lens of their own gender dysphoria and its eventual evaporation post-transition.

But at the same time, we know that at least in much less complex animals such as mice we can cause homosexual behavior by artificially manipulating sex hormone levels. Could there be enough plasticity in humans to allow for tweaking their orientation in subtle ways once they're on hormones? Magic 8Ball says answer hazy do more research. I'm inclined to say no not really, not unless their brain is already at least partially wired towards bisexuality.

Back to the other question you originally asked: I would be more comfortable in my own body transitioning to female, and I'm also (as TanithT has termed it) "boringly monosexual" and only attracted to females. Heh. (Would be easier for us both if we were bisexual, because as it stands, we wouldn't be attracted to each others' bodies if either of us transitioned. But it's amazing being with someone in precisely the same boat as you are and who understands it on the same level)

But for me the desire to transition (though I won't be transitioning for various reasons) isn't linked to sexual attraction, but out of dysphoria and self-loathing from being in the male body I was born into. That combination of being attracted to women and also desiring to transition to female would have in even recent times been a veritable death knell for getting medical approval to transition. Thankfully that appears to be changing.


Terquem:
Well, the productive comment is at least on my part coming from the folks I have met who honestly believed that their cynicism and their work to uncover those who were *gasp* lying on the internet somehow brought immense benefit to people, and that this justifies the times that they caused emotional pain along the way. If you have not run into any of these people, good for you and I envy your luck. :)

And if you are not one of those people who demands that others prove their claims, then I say great, that's wonderful. This is way more rare than I wish it were. I can't force you to believe me, nor would/should I try. And it doesn't matter so much unless this disbelief is being used to harass someone. But, I would like to know, if you are genuinely cynical about everything people claim, why call out this one specific thing? It was at best tangentially related to your topic. I don't actually agree with the base assumption that society pressures young women to present as bi, although that's certainly something that could spark some interesting discussion. I wish there was an emoticon for this, but there isn't so I'm going to just have to type out that this is not being said in a hostile tone. I am trying to gain some insight into where this is coming from.


lynora wrote:
Whether the person claiming to be female and bi is actually female and bi, is young and exploring their sexual identity, is seeking attention as you fear, is actually male and exploring another gender for whatever reason, or even just a person who likes to mess with people's heads for the lulz, this cynicism does not actually do anything productive.

If you are a gay or bi person at risk of being unfairly 'led on' and used as a display object by someone who isn't actually interested in you, it can. This is the reason why I consider 'fake ghey' behavior to be harmful and dysfunctional. I've had friends deeply hurt by it.

I don't mean the rude, boundary-crossing kind of cynicism where you make other people's sexual orientation your business when you have no reason for it to be your business. That's jerk behavior no matter who is doing it to whom. But staying skeptical and not personally investing yourself until you're surer of someone's true colors, yeah, that makes sense.

This is true no matter what your orientation, but there is some extra truth in it for people at risk of getting hurt by people who 'aren't really sure' or are 'just exploring' or just using them to get attention and not actually attracted to them or interested in them.

This is an old enough and sad enough story for many of us who identify as LGBT that we flat out don't date outside our own clearly self identified community any more. If you don't know yourself well enough to be committed to a queer identity, you are not a safe dating prospect. Because for all I know you're going to turn in your queer card as soon as it's not a fun novelty any more and tell me, "no homo" with a straight face. And I'm not willing to go there again. So either you're absolutely for sure, no take-backs, no do-overs-cause-I-was-just-kidding, fully committed to being queer, or you're not dating me. I'm not going to respond real well to your flirting with me either, if that's the headspace I think you're coming from.

Is that cynicism? Yeah, probably, but it's also a personal boundary, and everyone has the right to set those.

Whatever you call yourself if I'm not dating you, not my business. I am not the gatekeeper of other people's sexual or gender identity. You can change it twice every Tuesday for all I care, and I'll just politely ask what it is this week so I can use the right pronouns for you and your partner(s). And that's okay, too. I'm just not dating you until we are both sure that you have enough self-knowledge and honesty to say clearly where you are on the gender and orientation spectrum. Even if your answer is that you're fluid on the spectrum, because that's an okay answer too. I just can't figure out where you fit into my life, or with my own pieces of the sliding gender scale puzzle, if you don't know either. So I'll probably decline to try.

And yes, to avoid any confusion, clearly identifying as genderfluid and pansexual is a perfectly acceptable identity. I'm not saying 'pick a team' in the sense of excluding anyone who genuinely fits on multiple teams, I'm saying, 'I need to know that the team(s) you're sure you are on do not exclude your genuinely wanting to be with someone of MY gender identity."

Not saying that it's not cool to evolve and change if that's what life throws you, just that it's your responsibility to work on knowing yourself and to honestly report to prospective partners what you've learned. Folks who can't or won't do that get a pass from me on the dating front.

Highly relevant video: All-American Boy


lynora wrote:

Terquem:

Well, the productive comment is at least on my part coming from the folks I have met who honestly believed that their cynicism and their work to uncover those who were *gasp* lying on the internet somehow brought immense benefit to people, and that this justifies the times that they caused emotional pain along the way. If you have not run into any of these people, good for you and I envy your luck. :)

And if you are not one of those people who demands that others prove their claims, then I say great, that's wonderful. This is way more rare than I wish it were. I can't force you to believe me, nor would/should I try. And it doesn't matter so much unless this disbelief is being used to harass someone. But, I would like to know, if you are genuinely cynical about everything people claim, why call out this one specific thing? It was at best tangentially related to your topic. I don't actually agree with the base assumption that society pressures young women to present as bi, although that's certainly something that could spark some interesting discussion. I wish there was an emoticon for this, but there isn't so I'm going to just have to type out that this is not being said in a hostile tone. I am trying to gain some insight into where this is coming from.

I think you really called me out here, and you have made me realize that I had no reason for mentioning that at all, it really doesn't belong in the conversation and looking at it now I can see that I was just expressing a "soap box" attitude about a personal pet peeve of mine.


Tanith, not quite sure how dating came into it, though you make a fair point. The problem I have with it is that when it comes to potential love interests met on the internet there is no exception to cynicism being productive. The situation you described sucks. It's awful that this happens to people. The problem is that bad situations can happen to anyone of any sexual orientation. There is always a chance that Prince/Princess Charming could turn out to be a con artist. Or they could break up with you for stupid reasons that make no sense. Jerks come in every flavor and sometimes relationships don't work out and that one specific time (when considering an actual relationship with someone you don't know well yet) cynicism is helpful for anyone.

Now I've made the mistake of trusting someone I met over the internet too much and it caused huge problems for me. Lesson learned and I'm much more careful about sharing personal info and have a lot more caution about letting people I know from online interact with my offline life. But what doesn't actually help anyone, in my experience, is publicly calling out people that you(generic you, darn non-specific english language) are not going to be personally involved with in any capacity other than online. So yeah, caution towards people before letting them interact with your real life, but other people's bad behavior is never a good excuse to behave badly and publicly accusing someone of lying because of their stated gender and sexual orientation is bad behavior in my book. And there are quite a few people who do just that.

Meh, I feel like I am doing a bad job of explaining myself and it just starts to seem like an argument. Sorry for that. I am apparently not very eloquent today.


lynora wrote:
not quite sure how dating came into it, though you make a fair point.

The point was mainly that yes, sometimes there is a good reason to be cynical if someone is visibly flagging, "Look at me, I'm SOOOO queer" and they may have reasons for doing so other than actually being oriented that way. Or if they're flagging, "Look at me, I'm SOOOO straight". Either way, there's a chance it just ain't so.

Quote:
So yeah, caution towards people before letting them interact with your real life, but other people's bad behavior is never a good excuse to behave badly and publicly accusing someone of lying because of their stated gender and sexual orientation is bad behavior in my book. And there are quite a few people who do just that.

I don't think we'e are actually in disagreement on anything, here. If there is no conceivable reason that another person's orientation or gender identification should be any of your business, you're probably being a jerk if you try to make it your business.


lynora wrote:
First of all, I would like to say that I really appreciate all of you who have been willing to talk so freely about what it means to be transgender. I've really learned a lot about what you have to go through. Obviously I'll never fully understand, but any increase in understanding is good. :)

Just wanted to echo that. Nice to hear other trans experiences and perspectives, good to read.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My first exposure to a transgendered person (before I even knew what that word meant) was

Movie plot spoiler:

Angella (formerly Peter)

from the slasher flick Sleepaway Camp. The idea of a transgendered serial killer may not seem progressive, but she is cast in a very sympathetic light - especially considering this was made in '83. It's also just a solid horror movie, on par with the original Friday the 13th and Halloween.

The sequel is solid as well despite moving into campy horror/comedy territory. I particularly like that (she) is the main character in this one, and a solid antihero to boot. The rest of the camp counsellors are varying degrees of obnoxious, and you can't help rooting for (her). She's so happy and perky, even as she carries out some deeply disturbing murders. To this day the outhouse scene unsettles me. Oh, and did I mention that she's played by Bruce Springsteen's younger sister?

Despite being over-the-top, Sleepaway Camp II does have its serious moments. (Her) hallucinations and dreams suggest to me that some part of her regrets her actions. Also the way that, in her less lucid moments, she casually admits to past murders.

"Ooooh, I'm a happy camper, I love the summer sun. I love the trees and forest, I'm always having fun! Ooooh, I'm a happy camper, I love the clear blue sky, and with the grace of God, I'll camp until I die!"

As for the third one, Teenage Wasteland... Meh, nothing to see here. Move along.


I should probably be a member of this thread, but I can never figure out how to go about jumping into it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
I should probably be a member of this thread, but I can never figure out how to go about jumping into it.

Looks like you find a way ; )


I guess. I was looking at the Homosexuality in Golarion thread, and the mods deleted posts something fierce. It's a shame. The offensive posts are morbidly interesting to read.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
It's a shame. The offensive posts are morbidly interesting to read.

Glad I'm not the only one to enjoy them. Seriously, listening to baffoons attempting to defend their baffoonery, then raging when they ultimately fail, is so sickeningly cathartic. Indeed, every time a new state passes pro-LGBT legislation, there's like 10 ultra conservative blogs I jump on. As much as I hate the state-by-state approach of legalizing gay marriage, I so love to see the fundies' increasing desperation. Mwaha.

*Edit: The best thing I've seen on these boards so far is someone ending their post by saying "straight pride!" The moderator thought he was saying it jokingly, as did a few others. Hillarioulsy, he was not. I almost wish I took a screen capture of that one.


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I enjoy hearing the thoughts of those with whom I do not agree. It is a necessary part of avoiding putting my hand up their butt and putting words in their mouth, as I would rather put my foot up their butt after listening to what they said with their own two lips.


Mmmm, lips and butts, mmm...

Paizo Employee Editor

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lynora wrote:
First of all, I would like to say that I really appreciate all of you who have been willing to talk so freely about what it means to be transgender. I've really learned a lot about what you have to go through. Obviously I'll never fully understand, but any increase in understanding is good. :)

This. Thank you, folks!

Also! Good news! The IRS just proclaimed tax equality for same-sex couples!


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Judy Bauer wrote:
Also! Good news! The IRS just proclaimed tax equality for same-sex couples!

Yeah, I never thought I'd type these words, but: the IRS thing is great.


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An article by Finn Enke about (amongst other things) being trans and getting your name changed. It's worth a read.


Ever since I've come out as bisexual I've found it harder and harder to get a date. I keep running into the "choose a team" syndrome from straight and gay people alike. From the few who have accepted it, they have all said that their fear is that I will wander because I have twice as many people that interest me. Should I just "pick a team" and be done with it? I really like both men and women but this is beyond annoying. It's causing me to be single and lonely.


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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Ever since I've come out as bisexual I've found it harder and harder to get a date. I keep running into the "choose a team" syndrome from straight and gay people alike. From the few who have accepted it, they have all said that their fear is that I will wander because I have twice as many people that interest me. Should I just "pick a team" and be done with it? I really like both men and women but this is beyond annoying. It's causing me to be single and lonely.

be yourself, Bob. Do not yield to pressure of small minds or choosing company based on loneliness. Even if it is a brief coupling, you should only be with someone who accepts (or has come to terms with) your sexuality.

Liberty's Edge

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Don't "pick a team". Forcing yourself to be exclusively heterosexual or homosexual when you are not is as bad as forcing yourself to be heterosexual when you are homosexual (or homosexual when you are heterosexual).

Sadly, this is one of those big issues in the LGBT community that I can't in all honesty say that you're going to have it easy. Biphobia and Transphobia are big issues for the community.

The worst part about it is that you essentially become invisible. If you're currently dating a man, people will assume you're gay; if you're currently dating a woman, people will assume you're straight. Your sexuality doesn't exist outside of fantastical depictions of polygamy and orgies and so forth. :(

(I don't consider myself homosexual - or bi for that matter - but I HAVE stopped correcting when people call me a lesbian. It's too hard to explain to most people. So I kind of know where you're coming from.)

That said - if you can hold out, I'm sure you'll be better for it. I sincerely doubt having a secret towards your partner and/or your partner eventually becoming disturbed by your sexuality would be conducive to a healthy relationship. Being open from the start is more important.


Alice Margatroid wrote:
Your sexuality doesn't exist outside of fantastical depictions of polygamy and orgies and so forth. :( 

not sure why this is a :(. It can easily be turned into a :) with a little work.


I should say that I am 100% faithful to whoever I'm with. I don't wander just because I find someone attractive. It's hard enough trying to find someone who accepts the crossdressing part of my life. I'm open about who I am when the time comes. I don't see any need for crossdressing to be the topic of conversation at the first date (unless that's how we met).

It's just annoying and I can't seem to get my friends to understand. Half of them say that I should just pick a team and the other half says that things will happen when they happen, completely ignoring the additional challenges that come with being me.

I do know that when I settle down with someone, I will have chosen a team but not in the same sense that people are telling me to do. I will have chosen the person I love, whoever that may be. I will still be who I am. I just don't know how to get there. Dating sites suck. They don't really have an option for people like me.

I'm mostly venting because I have no one who will listen. Thanks for letting me vent.

Liberty's Edge

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Freehold DM wrote:
not sure why this is a :(. It can easily be turned into a :) with a little work.

Because I don't think being attracted to both men and women should boil down to promiscuity/orgies.

If you're into that, go wild, but I'm certainly not!

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I should say that I am 100% faithful to whoever I'm with.

And I hate that you feel that you should clarify this! God! There's nothing about bisexuality that implies unfaithfulness and yet soooo many people think bisexuality == sleeping around. Boo to them.

I hope you find a wonderful, understanding man or woman soon ^_^


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Bob_Loblaw wrote:

I should say that I am 100% faithful to whoever I'm with. I don't wander just because I find someone attractive. It's hard enough trying to find someone who accepts the crossdressing part of my life. I'm open about who I am when the time comes. I don't see any need for crossdressing to be the topic of conversation at the first date (unless that's how we met).

It's just annoying and I can't seem to get my friends to understand. Half of them say that I should just pick a team and the other half says that things will happen when they happen, completely ignoring the additional challenges that come with being me.

I do know that when I settle down with someone, I will have chosen a team but not in the same sense that people are telling me to do. I will have chosen the person I love, whoever that may be. I will still be who I am. I just don't know how to get there. Dating sites suck. They don't really have an option for people like me.

I'm mostly venting because I have no one who will listen. Thanks for letting me vent.

of course. Remember, you are the embodiment of someone's fantasy.


I don't recall if I wrote about that already and forgot in the flow of posts or haven't written that yet...

Some time ago I read that after the project of domestic partnership law was scrapped in Polish parliment, a law firm in one of the larger Polish cities (I think Wrocław or Poznań) started to offer a special service package for homosexual couples. The bundle involves providing both partners with mutual power of attorney, designating each other as primary beneficiaries of each other wills and some other contracts (I suspect something like contractual sharing of possessions). While this cannot provide partners with exactly the same rights as marriage (no shared tax filling for example nor the right to refuse to testify in court against ex-partner*) it definitely helps when a pair wants to have at least some sort of legal safety.

IIRC the service package costed around 1000 zloty (around $320 or 240 euro), i.e. ca. 2/3rd of minimum monthly wage (before taxes and social insurance) or about 1/3rd of average monthly wage.

From what I read it was met with mixed responses. Some of the gays were glad they can get some sort of limited legal and economic stability to their relationship. Others were thinking the law firm is exploiting the failure of domestic partnership project.

*:
Polish law includes the right to refuse to testify against current partner regardless of legal recognition of partnership or the partners' genders as long as there is physical, psychical and economic long-term bond between partners; actual marriage extends that right into perpetuity even after the dissolution of relationship and divorce.


Freehold DM wrote:
of course. Remember, you are the embodiment of someone's fantasy.

I don't know how much of that is true. I really wish that there was an easier way to find people than spending years getting rejected.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
of course. Remember, you are the embodiment of someone's fantasy.
I don't know how much of that is true. I really wish that there was an easier way to find people than spending years getting rejected.

me too.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I read a lot, mainly romance and erotica. And there is where I don't really like to read about bisexuality or M/F relationships. I think it's because of the impossibility of me ever being a woman or even looking like one.

That said, outside of my reading habits I have nothing against bisexuality, I even find it more "enlightened" (despite one being born bisexual and the fact that I only find men attractive). Hell, ideally, a bisexual man would be the man of my dreams (that is, if I could do like Ranma and go back and forth between a male and a female body).


Amaranthine Witch wrote:

I read a lot, mainly romance and erotica. And there is where I don't really like to read about bisexuality or M/F relationships. I think it's because of the impossibility of me ever being a woman or even looking like one.

That said, outside of my reading habits I have nothing against bisexuality, I even find it more "enlightened" (despite one being born bisexual and the fact that I only find men attractive). Hell, ideally, a bisexual man would be the man of my dreams (that is, if I could do like Ranma and go back and forth between a male and a female body).

love ranma.

Paizo Employee Editor

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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
From the few who have accepted it, they have all said that their fear is that I will wander because I have twice as many people that interest me.

Argh, I've had to have that conversation a couple times. Once it was an ongoing source of tension—and even after a couple conversation, the person never quite believed me, and it sucks to be doubted. The second time I was lucky enough to find someone who trusted me. Which was great! But how frustrating that that takes luck. :(

Quote:
I do know that when I settle down with someone, I will have chosen a team but not in the same sense that people are telling me to do. I will have chosen the person I love, whoever that may be.

I love how you put this. Go team People We Love!


I don't really get the whole jealousy thing. I really don't. And the thing is that it's not always a problem from the significant other (although it has at times been a problem since no one is considered 'safe' for me to be friends with...which had more to do with insecurity than anything I'd done). I've had more trouble with it from the friend side. too many people equate potential with inevitability when it comes to attraction. :/


Bob,

Sorry there isn't much more than letting you vent to do about this one -- at least, not in the immediate scale. On a long-term program, we can eventually educate the rest of the world (I include those in the gay community who insist you "pick a team" or whatnot in "the rest of the world") to a clearer understanding of what attraction is, and that an attraction to both/either genders isn't synonymous with promiscuity.

Sigh.

I have been fortunate to have had a number of bisexual boyfriends, as well as just plain friends; they opened my eyes to what it means to be bi, and I have been richer for that education. [As a side note, all my bi bfs were much better bfs than my gay ones, go figure.]

In the meantime, hang in there, and 'this, too, shall pass,' and all the other aphorisms. Don't let the bastards get you down. Some of us, despite our monogender attraction, do get it, and we'll root for you.


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I still have no idea why people are so aghast at the idea of being intimate with friends. I am not saying everyone has to do everyone else (fantasy orgies aside), but if I hadnt had sex with my friend years ago, I wouldnt be married to her today.


lynora wrote:
I don't really get the whole jealousy thing. I really don't. And the thing is that it's not always a problem from the significant other (although it has at times been a problem since no one is considered 'safe' for me to be friends with...which had more to do with insecurity than anything I'd done). I've had more trouble with it from the friend side. too many people equate potential with inevitability when it comes to attraction. :/

I think that they think you're either gay or straight and just kidding around about the other one and don't get that attractions to and relationships with both sexes might just be roughly as personally intense and important to others. My best friend is bi and it took me quite a while, partly because we don't really talk about his interest in women together like we do his interest in men, for it to finally dawn that he really was just as turned on and interested in women as in men and not just really sexually versatile.

Then I revised my idea of sexuality continua from a line to a triangle, which also explained a lot of situational sexuality I've read about.


Thanks everyone. I don't know if or when this will pass but some retail therapy for my feminine side helped me feel better. A friend got me some new polish and then I picked up some stuff for myself.

Judy, I plan on being at the Raygun Lounge this Friday. I finally got my personal time to line up with Ladies Night. Maybe I'll see you there.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Thanks everyone. I don't know if or when this will pass but some retail therapy for my feminine side helped me feel better. A friend got me some new polish and then I picked up some stuff for myself.

Judy, I plan on being at the Raygun Lounge this Friday. I finally got my personal time to line up with Ladies Night. Maybe I'll see you there.

DO EET BOB!!!!!


Freehold DM wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Thanks everyone. I don't know if or when this will pass but some retail therapy for my feminine side helped me feel better. A friend got me some new polish and then I picked up some stuff for myself.

Judy, I plan on being at the Raygun Lounge this Friday. I finally got my personal time to line up with Ladies Night. Maybe I'll see you there.

DO EET BOB!!!!!

I may even get some pictures to prove that I deed eet!

The only problem I'm running into right now is finding a place to change. I live in an apartment and I don't really like some of my neighbors and I have a feeling that they won't appreciate my fashion choices. I think I have a friend who will let me change there and who can help with the make up. I've never been able to master my eyes. They always look like a 4-year old attacked them with a magic marker.


@ Bob: I don't know what it's like to be in the 'catch bi 22,' but maybe just don't mention it until your next relationship has matured a bit? Normally I'm all for honesty, but in this case it'd be a white lie-by-omission. After all, you wouldn't be doing anything underhanded; you'd just be giving your partner time to confirm that you don't jump on everything with two legs before dropping the bi bomb.


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Eye makeup is hard. Anyways, good luck and I hope you have a good time, Bob.


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Tequila Sunrise wrote:
@ Bob: I don't know what it's like to be in the 'catch bi 22,' but maybe just don't mention it until your next relationship has matured a bit? Normally I'm all for honesty, but in this case it'd be a white lie-by-omission. After all, you wouldn't be doing anything underhanded; you'd just be giving your partner time to confirm that you don't jump on everything with two legs before dropping the bi bomb.

I don't generally discuss it until I think it's important and I can trust the person. The last couple people already knew about it because we were friends first.

I'm a strange person in that I'm open about my beliefs and opinions but I don't open up easily about myself as a person so that I don't get hurt personally.

I don't think it would be a lie to not mention it simply because while I'm with that person, it is irrelevant. If I'm on a date with a woman, my interest in men just doesn't matter. I'm interested in her.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Thanks everyone. I don't know if or when this will pass but some retail therapy for my feminine side helped me feel better. A friend got me some new polish and then I picked up some stuff for myself.

Judy, I plan on being at the Raygun Lounge this Friday. I finally got my personal time to line up with Ladies Night. Maybe I'll see you there.

DO EET BOB!!!!!

I may even get some pictures to prove that I deed eet!

The only problem I'm running into right now is finding a place to change. I live in an apartment and I don't really like some of my neighbors and I have a feeling that they won't appreciate my fashion choices. I think I have a friend who will let me change there and who can help with the make up. I've never been able to master my eyes. They always look like a 4-year old attacked them with a magic marker.

Eyes take a lot of work. It's only recently (after living for two years full time as a woman) that I've gotten the hang of liner.


Here's why I can't get my eyes right:

1) I'm afraid I'm going to poke myself in the eye. It's one of my very few actual phobias. It causes me to shake really bad.

2) When I take my glasses off I can't see very well so I have to get close to the mirror and then I can't see through the fog I create with my breath.

3) I have no artistic talent and I get frustrated easily when I feel I should be able to do something simple.

4) I don't want to do something simple. I want my eyes to look amazing!

Liberty's Edge

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I am so glad that I don't ever bother with makeup. The amount of work you have to do... ugh! I'm the type of girl who gets frustrated when I have to brush my hair more than once a day and basically wears whatever random clothes are arbitrarily picked up from the top of the pile... shaving is so much effort so I don't do it if I can get away with it... and make-up? Gooooood, screw that. Effooooort.

I rescind my womanly license and give it to one of you lot. ;)


Alice Margatroid wrote:

Don't "pick a team". Forcing yourself to be exclusively heterosexual or homosexual when you are not is as bad as forcing yourself to be heterosexual when you are homosexual (or homosexual when you are heterosexual).

Sadly, this is one of those big issues in the LGBT community that I can't in all honesty say that you're going to have it easy. Biphobia and Transphobia are big issues for the community.

The worst part about it is that you essentially become invisible. If you're currently dating a man, people will assume you're gay; if you're currently dating a woman, people will assume you're straight. Your sexuality doesn't exist outside of fantastical depictions of polygamy and orgies and so forth. :(

(I don't consider myself homosexual - or bi for that matter - but I HAVE stopped correcting when people call me a lesbian. It's too hard to explain to most people. So I kind of know where you're coming from.)

That said - if you can hold out, I'm sure you'll be better for it. I sincerely doubt having a secret towards your partner and/or your partner eventually becoming disturbed by your sexuality would be conducive to a healthy relationship. Being open from the start is more important.

You, I like you. Yeah, I've felt this a lot--my family (who I have not come out to and never will because at this point I just don't see the point) either don't believe bisexuals exist or think they're just promiscuous liars. Hell, my grandmother has given me and my cousins plenty of talks on watching out for "sneaky bisexual women" and so forth.

And to the people who know I'm queer, it's the same damn thing. When I was at college, I hung out in the lgbtq student office a lot, and while it was kinda nice, I often felt like I didn't really fit in with the crowd, if that makes any sense. Some of the people--one guy in particular, I know--flat out told me bisexuals don't exist, that I'd have to pick one or another, and that those claiming to be bi are just in it for the tail. It was infuriating. I even had something like that happen in a PFS game awhile ago, when one of the players mentioned he was gay (I don't know how we got on the subject) and I replied "hey, I'm bi, doesn't bother me" to which he said he didn't believe bisexuals exist. We moved on after that but it left me bitter.

Then again I get the feeling I don't really fit in with most of the lgbtq community anyway, like when I was in that student organization people didn't seem like me. It's like...I don't know how to explain it. I can't decide if I wanna be masculine or effeminate, or I don't feel so political, or I didn't really like the same things as my peers. And I'm sorry if this seems to come off as stereotypical, but it happened; sitting around four years with people who were really into stuff like Lady Gaga and clubbing and fashion and stuff and I'm sitting there thinking "man I don't give a **** about any of that". I dunno.

As for relationships, I don't even get how people find other queer people to date...or straight people for that matter. But eh, part of me wonders if relationships are even worth it to begin with. They seem to just cause grief and fall apart, from what I've seen. Same with coming out; part of me wonders if it would really matter in the grand scheme of things.

And this was an incoherent rant. Sorry.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Here's why I can't get my eyes right:

1) I'm afraid I'm going to poke myself in the eye. It's one of my very few actual phobias. It causes me to shake really bad.

2) When I take my glasses off I can't see very well so I have to get close to the mirror and then I can't see through the fog I create with my breath.

3) I have no artistic talent and I get frustrated easily when I feel I should be able to do something simple.

4) I don't want to do something simple. I want my eyes to look amazing!

1 is a perfectly legit fear...and why I avoid liner most of the time. I recommend a liquid liner and a brush. Much less nerve-wracking than a pencil.

For 2 I recommend a lighted magnifying makeup mirror. I couldn't manage makeup without one. Same reason as you, I can't see crap without my glasses. :)

Don't beat yourself up so much about three. It's just a question of practice. And once you've had that practice you'll be able to manage 'simple' looks that do look amazing. You'll get there. ...if I could show you some of the bad makeup I wore in middle school and high school I would...really everyone goes through the learning curve when it comes to cosmetics....or they decide to just give them up. The point is you'll get there eventually.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

I remember one of the most difficult things about being a good friend to girls at school was to figure out a way to tell them they'd maybe used a little too much make-up in a helpful way that wouldn't be taken for snark or telling them how they should look.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

(This was obviously only something I'd do with girls I already were pretty darn close friends already and knew I could point out things like that to.)


FanaticRat, I can completely understand where you're coming from. I just want to be a normal person and not have to fit into any stereotypes either. I came out to everyone last year on Facebook and even though my family knows, it doesn't come up in conversation very often. For some, I think it's because they don't want to believe it. For others, like my brother, it doesn't matter at all. I am who I am. Nothing has changed about how they treat me, except a few of my female cousins and some aunts who want to help whenever they can with advice or to take pictures.

Alice Margatroid, if I didn't have to put on as much makeup to cover my masculine features I'd be better off. Shaving my legs is really hard for me because I can't see what I'm doing in some areas and I have thick hair.

lynora, I've been debating about getting a mirror. Maybe I should get one.

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