The LGBT Gamer Community Thread.


Gamer Life General Discussion

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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Ever since I've come out as bisexual I've found it harder and harder to get a date. I keep running into the "choose a team" syndrome from straight and gay people alike. From the few who have accepted it, they have all said that their fear is that I will wander because I have twice as many people that interest me. Should I just "pick a team" and be done with it? I really like both men and women but this is beyond annoying. It's causing me to be single and lonely.

Biphobia and transphobia sucks, and somehow it sucks even worse when you run into it in the queer community. But sadly, you do.

On the bright side, for someone on the trans* spectrum, a bi partner can be a HUGE plus as you don't feel that they have to pigeonhole you into a gender box to be attracted to you. Also, bisexuals are jokingly (but actually kind of seriously) referred to as the glue of poly relationships, and it's a rare polycule that doesn't have a happy bi person (or two or three) holding the family's merry connections together. So, being bi can actually be a big extra credit bonus for many trans* and poly folks, even if boringly monosexual cisgendered peeps don't properly appreciate you. ;)


Crystal Frasier wrote:
You'll be happy to know that the Raygun has a gender-neutral bathroom.

That's good to know. I won't have to worry about anyone feeling awkward other than me! I'm sure I'll be fine once I get used to being around people I don't know.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

How you accessorize yourself is a very personal choice, with a myriad of inputs. I like doing my eyes a little crazy and unnatural, personally, because I like what it communicates about me. I actually think about makeup like bending. Pancake makeup to knock down all your features and then creams and colors to build them back up s straight-up earthbending; it's blunt and tough and brings laws down exactly what you want right the f*** now. Super-light, delicate makeup to unify your features is like airbending; you're not even trying to touch things so much as keep them all in harmony. Playing down your bad features and emphasizing your great features (what I tend to do) is your waterbending; you're using people's psychology and preconceptions to move them where you want them to go, optically speaking. And high-intensity, bright, obvious makeup is firebending; its all about action and display and pushing your will and attitude in a way everyone will notice. No style is really wrong, but different styles suit different people.

If you're going to be a woman, even part-time, you need to accept that there's no wrong way to be a woman.

I have no idea what you're talking about with the bending. I do understand the concept of putting on what you feel is the right look for what you're trying to convey. For myself, I'm still trying to learn the basics. I took a year off because I fell into a very deep depression and I had to put aside this part of myself in order to deal with something far more important. I have PTSD and dealing with it took priority. I'm just now getting back into things.

Quote:
If you're going to be a woman, even part-time, you need to accept that there's no wrong way to be a woman.

I'm sure I can figure out how. I've managed to do the impossible before. You'd be amazed at what I can screw up. That being said, I understand what you're getting at. I still don't have my own personal style yet so I'm having a little fun trying to figure out who I am.

Quote:
As a follow-up, and I hope this doesn't come across as insensitive, I've actually always wondered what the appeal of crossdressing was. I can wrap my head around wanting to be a woman or wanting to be a man, but in all honesty, I could never get my head around the idea of 'just visiting.'

Just so you (and everyone else knows), asking me questions will rarely be seen as insensitive. If you ever think it's too personal for the forum, you can shoot me a private message, but I'm ok with answering just about anything. Heck, if anyone wants to be friends with either Bob or Cindy on Facebook, I'm open to that too.

Anyway, I'm not really sure what the appeal is for me to crossdress. I know that I really like the clothing and how I feel when I wear it. I feel more normal. It's generally softer and prettier. It just feels nicer. There's more variety. I can enjoy wearing loose fitting clothing in warmer weather and not feel as restricted or I can enjoy different layers in cooler weather. Men's clothing tends to be rougher and single-minded. I don't know if that makes any sense. It makes sense to me.

As for the makeup, it makes me feel more feminine. I enjoy feeling feminine sometimes. I'm bisexual but I only enjoy women when I'm Bob and I only enjoy men when I'm Cindy. It's like I have two different personas. It's not entirely accurate but it's the only way I know how to explain it.

Project Manager

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Terquem wrote:

Ms Price

I believe I was clear when I said, I kind of wish women did not wear makeup*. When a woman wears makeup,in my eyes, she is simply making an effort to pretend she is something she is not.

I would prefer that women did not wear makeup, does not imply, I feel, that I hold the position that women should not wear makeup.

And, I cannot engage in a discussion of the moral implications of dishonesty, other than to say that "pretending" to be something you are not, is in my opinion, as an act in and of itself, not morally wrong, and there must be motivation to deceive for the purpose of causing harm for any kind of act of "pretending" or deceit to, in my opinion, be morally wrong.

It is too weighty a subject for me to talk about with any confidence, and I will only make my case less clear by trying, thank you.

Your position is not one I disagree with, not in the least part. I feel, like you, strongly, that it is every person’s choice to present themselves as they desire. I will have nothing further to say on this subject and I am thankful for your kindness and patience with my limited abilities to communicate my thoughts.

*My mistake in not knowing that makeup is in fact one word

No worries, dude. It's not like I think you're a bad person, or anything. I just get really sick of the number of people telling women how to be A Proper Woman. And, y'know, 95% of the time, I'm really just interested in being a person. But during the 5% where I like to get dressed up and be girly, I ... just want to have fun getting dressed up and being girly.


TanithT wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Ever since I've come out as bisexual I've found it harder and harder to get a date. I keep running into the "choose a team" syndrome from straight and gay people alike. From the few who have accepted it, they have all said that their fear is that I will wander because I have twice as many people that interest me. Should I just "pick a team" and be done with it? I really like both men and women but this is beyond annoying. It's causing me to be single and lonely.

Biphobia and transphobia sucks, and somehow it sucks even worse when you run into it in the queer community. But sadly, you do.

On the bright side, for someone on the trans* spectrum, a bi partner can be a HUGE plus as you don't feel that they have to pigeonhole you into a gender box to be attracted to you. Also, bisexuals are jokingly (but actually kind of seriously) referred to as the glue of poly relationships, and it's a rare polycule that doesn't have a happy bi person (or two or three) holding the family's merry connections together. So, being bi can actually be a big extra credit bonus for many trans* and poly folks, even if boringly monosexual cisgendered peeps don't properly appreciate you. ;)

I just wish I knew where to find someone. Dating sites aren't the way to go. I found that out the hard way. I don't do the bar/club scene. I'm hoping that meeting people at the Raygun will start getting me in contact with like-minded people.

Project Manager

Crystal Frasier wrote:


But with just a little bit of blush around my jawline to soften it I actually think I'm very pretty.

Yes you are! :-)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Bob, the bending references were to the cartoon: Avatar, the Last Airbender. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.


Cori Marie wrote:
Bob, the bending references were to the cartoon: Avatar, the Last Airbender. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.

Is that anime? If so, I'm probably not going to enjoy it. I haven't found any that I've liked so far. I'm just not a fan of the genre.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Bob, the bending references were to the cartoon: Avatar, the Last Airbender. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.
Is that anime? If so, I'm probably not going to enjoy it. I haven't found any that I've liked so far. I'm just not a fan of the genre.

It's an American animated series that was on Nickelodeon. Some stylistic elements the same as anime, but still different.

From what (limited amount) I've seen it's pretty decent.

Project Manager

2 people marked this as a favorite.

It's American anime from Nickelodeon, but it's almost Pixar-like in the way it manages to be simultaneously appropriate for children, and deeply moving for adults. I know plenty of people who don't like anime who love it.

One of the characters, Katara, may be one of the top ten great role models of all time for people of all genders, and nicely subverts the "female heroes must be masculine warriors" trope. She's not perfect -- after all, she's just a kid when the series starts -- but watching her grow up over the course of the series, make mistakes, learn from them, learn to be a good friend, come into her power, learn to teach, learn to trade off being a leader and a follower, figure out how to balance compassion and pride, work out when anger is harmful and when it's a force for good, take on responsibility for others, learn that gentleness is not a weakness, and then whip out a giant helping of badass to protect the people she cared about was one of those "Holy crap this is actual ART" experiences.

In some ways I envy kids who get to see the series as children and have her -- and the other main characters -- as heroes.


Maybe I'll check it out. With the new seasons starting up, I'm not sure I'm going to have time to watch all the shows I want to watch now. It might be something to catch up on during the holiday breaks that the shows will inevitably go through.


Bob - only warning is... whatever you do, don't think I'll just watch the movie and see if I like the story.

Stay pure... it you get the time watch the cartoon.

The movie was universally panned for a number of reasons, and is painful to watch... it didn't stay very true to the animated series.


FanaticRat wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Kajehase wrote:
I really wish the 'fro and 'stache combo would make a comeback among black men. Such a cooler look than what's in right now.
lets see YOU maintain one ofthose things. They went out of style because theywere just too difficult to manage-a real drain on time. Although I do miss combing my face...I loved the Cleveland show episode where they showed his comically large moustache and beard grooming set complete with ruler. .. made me think of my dad back in the day.
I feel you. I remember when I had my 'fro. That thing took forever to comb. I like my dreads now a lot more, although I know I'll have to cut them soon. Corporate America and all that crap.

the hell with that. Keep your locks.

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jessica Price wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:


But with just a little bit of blush around my jawline to soften it I actually think I'm very pretty.
Yes you are! :-)

See! When I don't wear blush, Jessica calls me "Jason" at work and keeps wanting to know if the next book is ready yet.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Bob, the bending references were to the cartoon: Avatar, the Last Airbender. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.
Is that anime? If so, I'm probably not going to enjoy it. I haven't found any that I've liked so far. I'm just not a fan of the genre.

It's an American animated series with some anime design influences, set in a sort of fantasy Asia world where some people can control the classical elements (earth, air, fire, and water) using martial arts. It's a beautifully designed and told series that seems like childhood fun on the surface, but touches on some pretty deep concepts about responsibility and dealing with your place in the world.

And I don't think I'd call anime a "genre", any more than I'd call "French authors" a genre of literature. There are many, many different kinds of stories, just told from a Japanese perspective. Some of them are great; a lot are crap (just like American television). Avatar is almost a hybrid of eastern and western storytelling styles.


Mark Sweetman wrote:

Bob - only warning is... whatever you do, don't think I'll just watch the movie and see if I like the story.

Stay pure... it you get the time watch the cartoon.

The movie was universally panned for a number of reasons, and is painful to watch... it didn't stay very true to the animated series.

I've given up on Shyamalamanadingdong's movies. I liked The 6th Sense and that was it. I saw his next two and I figured that I was done. I won't watch this movie either.


Crystal Frasier wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:


But with just a little bit of blush around my jawline to soften it I actually think I'm very pretty.
Yes you are! :-)

See! When I don't wear blush, Jessica calls me "Jason" at work and keeps wanting to know if the next book is ready yet.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Bob, the bending references were to the cartoon: Avatar, the Last Airbender. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.
Is that anime? If so, I'm probably not going to enjoy it. I haven't found any that I've liked so far. I'm just not a fan of the genre.

It's an American animated series with some anime design influences, set in a sort of fantasy Asia world where some people can control the classical elements (earth, air, fire, and water) using martial arts. It's a beautifully designed and told series that seems like childhood fun on the surface, but touches on some pretty deep concepts about responsibility and dealing with your place in the world.

And I don't think I'd call anime a "genre", any more than I'd call "French authors" a genre of literature. There are many, many different kinds of stories, just told from a Japanese perspective. Some of them are great; a lot are crap (just like American television). Avatar is almost a hybrid of eastern and western storytelling styles.

The last anime that I liked was Star Blazers (and I tried to rewatch it and couldn't). That was a very long time ago. I've tried hard to like anime. I just can't stand most of the art or the stories. I've watched several of the ones that people say are awesome and that I would just love because everyone loves them. I can't stand them.

I will try to keep an open mind when I watch Airbender.

Silver Crusade

Since cartoons are coming up:

This one didn't last nearly long enough. :)

One could say it dealt with some LGBT ideas very lightly. I've heard the original comic went a bit deeper.

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Mikaze wrote:

Since cartoons are coming up:

This one didn't last nearly long enough. :)

One could say it dealt with some LGBT ideas very lightly. I've heard the original comic went a bit deeper.

Oh my god! I love CyberSix! She's easily in my top five superheroes, and (almost) no one has ever heard on her.

And to turn things back around towards LGBT issues: Hi, I'm Crystal and I'm (mostly) a lesbian. I think boys are fun to look at and even date, but there's no *zing* there for me like there is for other women. Gaming actually helped me work through some of my queer fears in high school and college. Now I write them because I hope they can give other kids in a bad situation something positive to latch onto. Also because I have an overactive imagination and would probably go crazy if I didn't write SOMETHING.

So really, you either get The Harrowing, or my Sailor Moon/Mayor of Casterbridge fan fiction. Let us all be grateful Paizo gives me an outlet.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

On cartoons:

Baccano.

Go get it, watch it, love it.

[The last 3 episodes are kinda "filler." Skipable, as the story wraps up in episode 10.]

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Crystal Frasier wrote:
or my Sailor Moon/Mayor of Casterbridge fan fiction

wtb> this

Silver Crusade

Crystal Frasier wrote:
So really, you either get The Harrowing, or my Sailor Moon/Mayor of Casterbridge fan fiction. Let us all be grateful Paizo gives me an outlet.

The Harrowing is really good btw.

hoping the Umbra Carnival continues to show up here and there as well!


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Mark Sweetman wrote:

Bob - only warning is... whatever you do, don't think I'll just watch the movie and see if I like the story.

Stay pure... it you get the time watch the cartoon.

The movie was universally panned for a number of reasons, and is painful to watch... it didn't stay very true to the animated series.

I've given up on Shyamalamanadingdong's movies. I liked The 6th Sense and that was it. I saw his next two and I figured that I was done. I won't watch this movie either.

I liked his early stuff- loved signs and unbreakable, thought devil was interesting. The last airbender was unforgivable, however..


Mikaze wrote:

Since cartoons are coming up:

This one didn't last nearly long enough. :)

One could say it dealt with some LGBT ideas very lightly. I've heard the original comic went a bit deeper.

coming up as an invalid request. ..give me another link?


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:


But with just a little bit of blush around my jawline to soften it I actually think I'm very pretty.
Yes you are! :-)

See! When I don't wear blush, Jessica calls me "Jason" at work and keeps wanting to know if the next book is ready yet.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Bob, the bending references were to the cartoon: Avatar, the Last Airbender. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.
Is that anime? If so, I'm probably not going to enjoy it. I haven't found any that I've liked so far. I'm just not a fan of the genre.

It's an American animated series with some anime design influences, set in a sort of fantasy Asia world where some people can control the classical elements (earth, air, fire, and water) using martial arts. It's a beautifully designed and told series that seems like childhood fun on the surface, but touches on some pretty deep concepts about responsibility and dealing with your place in the world.

And I don't think I'd call anime a "genre", any more than I'd call "French authors" a genre of literature. There are many, many different kinds of stories, just told from a Japanese perspective. Some of them are great; a lot are crap (just like American television). Avatar is almost a hybrid of eastern and western storytelling styles.

The last anime that I liked was Star Blazers (and I tried to rewatch it and couldn't). That was a very long time ago. I've tried hard to like anime. I just can't stand most of the art or the stories. I've watched several of the ones that people say are awesome and that I would just love because everyone loves them. I can't stand them.

I will try to keep an open mind when I watch Airbender.

there's a new star blazers outin japan btw. The entire country is enamored with it. I also ppicked up the live action moviethat came out a few years ago- irs quite good.


In other news, I'm finally taking that nice relaxing shave I've promised myself...

Silver Crusade

Freehold DM wrote:
Mikaze wrote:

Since cartoons are coming up:

This one didn't last nearly long enough. :)

One could say it dealt with some LGBT ideas very lightly. I've heard the original comic went a bit deeper.

coming up as an invalid request. ..give me another link?

Huh. Maybe I clipped something off...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

After reading the recent discussion I was wondering when western males stopped wearing high heals and makeup... I came across the term "The Great Male Renunciation".

BBC news article.g.

Final Fashion


Kthulhu wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
I shave regularly. Is this also somehow wrong? Cuz I can't deal with all this facial hair.
You are an embarrassment to dwarves everywhere.

wife swears I'm a stretched out dwarf. Not sure why....


Mikaze wrote:

Since cartoons are coming up:

This one didn't last nearly long enough. :)

One could say it dealt with some LGBT ideas very lightly. I've heard the original comic went a bit deeper.

Hmmm. I remember that opening. Nothing about the actual series but the opening...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I want to apologize to anyone that I may have offended with my earlier posts. I did not want to come across as sounding like I was "lecturing" anyone on what they should or should not do and if I did, I am very sorry.

Silver Crusade

Jessica Price wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Alice Margatroid, if I didn't have to put on as much makeup to cover my masculine features I'd be better off.
I don't know your level of makeup expertise, so forgive me if any of this comes across as talking down to you. And I haven't ever done makeup on a man, so I'll admit to ignorance about how makeup works on male skin (or, really, any skin but mine). (Disclaimer: my usual makeup is Burt's Bees lip balm so my lips don't dry out, and eyeliner/mascara because my lashes are pale -- and if I think my skin might get shiny, mineral veil powder -- so I'm kinda lazy, but I do do more for special occasions and I think I'm reasonably competent at it.
You're wearing a lot of makeup in your picture.
My avatar? You ... know that's not really relevant to a discussion of actual makeup techniques, right?

What's an avatar?

Do you mean that photo of you in the top left corner of your posts?

An avatar is, yes, the image in the top left corner of our posts. You realize that's a painting of a character in one of our books, not a photo of me, right? I'm actually a bit too lawful to be an azata.

I know that this is an emotional reaction rather than a rational one, but I can't help but visualise the poster based on that picture. Some of the more non-human avatars don't get confused for photos of the poster, but even pictures that I can intellectually tell are drawings my mind reacts to as if they were photos. : /

I bet you don't even really have green hair!

I suppose that if I had the faintest clue how to get an avatar I'd've used the picture of the human fighter pawn from the Beginner Box; y'know, the guy with a blue cloak, plate armour and the sword over his shoulder. I based the look of my first PFS character (Malachi Silverclaw) on that picture, and when I made this profile I thought that we were profiling these characters, not ourselves.

The only reason I'm on this forum is because I accidentally found that I could do stuff on it because I'd registered my PFS PC. It's still the only forum I've ever been on.

I actually kept the 'rules questions' page up on my smartphone for months because I didn't think I could find my way back if I ever closed it.

Silver Crusade

Jessica Price wrote:
Terquem wrote:

Ms Price

I believe I was clear when I said, I kind of wish women did not wear makeup*. When a woman wears makeup,in my eyes, she is simply making an effort to pretend she is something she is not.

I would prefer that women did not wear makeup, does not imply, I feel, that I hold the position that women should not wear makeup.

And, I cannot engage in a discussion of the moral implications of dishonesty, other than to say that "pretending" to be something you are not, is in my opinion, as an act in and of itself, not morally wrong, and there must be motivation to deceive for the purpose of causing harm for any kind of act of "pretending" or deceit to, in my opinion, be morally wrong.

It is too weighty a subject for me to talk about with any confidence, and I will only make my case less clear by trying, thank you.

Your position is not one I disagree with, not in the least part. I feel, like you, strongly, that it is every person’s choice to present themselves as they desire. I will have nothing further to say on this subject and I am thankful for your kindness and patience with my limited abilities to communicate my thoughts.

*My mistake in not knowing that makeup is in fact one word

No worries, dude. It's not like I think you're a bad person, or anything. I just get really sick of the number of people telling women how to be A Proper Woman. And, y'know, 95% of the time, I'm really just interested in being a person. But during the 5% where I like to get dressed up and be girly, I ... just want to have fun getting dressed up and being girly.

The main reason that I ever looked at the LGBT thread in the first place is because, not being L, G, B or T, I wanted to try to understand my fellow human beings. It has helped somewhat, but I can't pretend I understand everything.

Trans* people, for example. For most people the binary way of seeing gender is....well...fact! Just like gravity or evolution. It's interesting to learn some of the science which shows that the binary view is not the whole story. I've heard of 'XY women', who are genetically male but in utero the testosterone boost that should have instructed the foetus to develop as a male failed to be registered, so that the foetus remained blank gender-wise, and 'blank' looks female when it's born, so the baby was believed to be a girl and is raised as such.

Still, whether I understand it or not I'm fair-minded enough to believe that each of us has the right to forge our own destiny. More power to you!

The reason I chose to reply to this post is the 'being girly' part. Evolution rewards those creatures that breed, and so those that more successfully find a mate are more likely to pass on their genes. To that end, males attract mates by emphasising their masculinity and females by emphasising their femininity. This could be anything from antler size to plumage.

This holds true for humanity as a whole. Men want to seem more masculine, women want to seem more feminine. Vive la difference! We are hardwired with this idea.

While I can understand that what may be true for the broad swathe of humanity may not be true for individuals, there are still things I don't understand. For example, if lesbians are defined as females who are attracted to females and not to males, doesn't it follow that they are attracted to feminine qualities rather than masculine qualities? So why do so many lesbians try to look like men? Not trying to denigrate you in any way, just trying to get my head round it.

I still don't understand, no matter how many videos I've seen on the subject.


Mikaze wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Mikaze wrote:

Since cartoons are coming up:

This one didn't last nearly long enough. :)

One could say it dealt with some LGBT ideas very lightly. I've heard the original comic went a bit deeper.

coming up as an invalid request. ..give me another link?
Huh. Maybe I clipped something off...

never seen this a day in my life. What is this?

Liberty's Edge

You're touching on a lot here, Malachi, and a lot of it is quite... off. That said, you're very polite and honestly seem interested in learning, which I do appreciate.

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The reason I chose to reply to this post is the 'being girly' part. Evolution rewards those creatures that breed, and so those that more successfully find a mate are more likely to pass on their genes. To that end, males attract mates by emphasising their masculinity and females by emphasising their femininity. This could be anything from antler size to plumage.

This holds true for humanity as a whole. Men want to seem more masculine, women want to seem more feminine. Vive la difference! We are hardwired with this idea.

Animals have no concept of "masculinity" or "femininity". You are correct that evolution favours creatures that pass on their genes, but the idea of "evolutionary fitness" doesn't discriminate based on concepts such as these. A male bird may show off his proud plumage or excellent nest-building skills, but these are not innate traits of masculinity, but merely behaviours that have been taught over generations and generations of the species to have the most success in getting your children to survive. The chicken comes before the egg in this regard; a "masculine" behaviour of an animal would only come into existence because it did better than what males were doing previously.

And humans are a whole different kettle of fish. What is "masculinity"? What is "femininity"? If you look to history, to the world as a whole, ideas of what constitute these ideas change quite significantly. What is considered "attractive" is nebulous and not at all hard-wired (in a wide population sense - not in an individual sense).

Malachi Silverpaw wrote:

While I can understand that what may be true for the broad swathe of humanity may not be true for individuals, there are still things I don't understand. For example, if lesbians are defined as females who are attracted to females and not to males, doesn't it follow that they are attracted to feminine qualities rather than masculine qualities? So why do so many lesbians try to look like men? Not trying to denigrate you in any way, just trying to get my head round it.

I still don't understand, no matter how many videos I've seen on the subject.

Before talking about "being attracted to feminine qualities", I thought I'd talk about butches! I've read various things about the 'why' in this regard... it's not a one-size-fits-all thing. But many butches apparently do it not for the desire to "look like men" but to simply "not look like the (stereotypical) woman". It is a desire to break away from society's views of what a woman should or should not do. And it is also to do with gender fluidity. A butch is a woman! Through and through! And yet they may crop their hair short and wear boyish clothes and all the rest of it. Many find that incredibly liberating. And many femmes are attracted to that liberation, the strength of defying what society expects of you.

Plus, when you throw in the aspects of the lesbian subculture where there are certain stereotypes and roles and whatnot, some people might just do it to go with the crowd. And because they like it. :) Plus, the butch subculture seems to dovetail and blur the lines with regards to transmen as well...

(I would also think that historical pressures of heteronormativity, i.e. one partner must be the "man" in the relationship, may have had a part in creating the stereotype as well.)

As for "being attracted to feminine qualities", yes... but what's considered "feminine" is not a static, binary thing. It's influenced by your society/culture, your beliefs, some innate stuff, probably some Freudian things from your youth, and a myriad other things that combine together to form your sexuality.

Like the discussion above about "there's no one right way to be a woman", there's likewise no one reason to be attracted to a given gender.

And as a heads up, I am like so totally not in the lesbian subculture at all so I'm mostly speaking from an academic and/or outsider's position here... so if I get things wrong, I apologise!


Nice article that I got shared on FB

Edit: Noticed it's also linked to a blog by the mum about raising a 'gender-creative' son.

Project Manager

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:


I know that this is an emotional reaction rather than a rational one, but I can't help but visualise the poster based on that picture. Some of the more non-human avatars don't get confused for photos of the poster, but even pictures that I can intellectually tell are drawings my mind reacts to as if they were photos. : /

Oh, well, that's natural. Every time I go to a convention everyone jokes about how shocked they are that people look different from their avatars. :-)

Quote:
I bet you don't even really have green hair!

Alas, no.

Quote:
I suppose that if I had the faintest clue how to get an avatar I'd've used the picture of the human fighter pawn from the Beginner Box; y'know, the guy with a blue cloak, plate armour and the sword over his shoulder. I based the look of my first PFS character (Malachi Silverclaw) on that picture, and when I made this profile I thought that we were profiling these characters, not ourselves.

Hmm, I'd walk you through how to change your avatar, but I honestly don't know. Since staff avatars are unique, I think the process for us is different (or at least it was for me -- Chris in her kindness did it for me).

If you ask in the website forum, though, someone can probably walk you through it.

Quote:

The only reason I'm on this forum is because I accidentally found that I could do stuff on it because I'd registered my PFS PC. It's still the only forum I've ever been on.

I actually kept the 'rules questions' page up on my smartphone for months because I didn't think I could find my way back if I ever closed it.

Oh, well, in that case you're doing impressively well! :-)

Silver Crusade

Jessica Price wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The only reason I'm on this forum is because I accidentally found that I could do stuff on it because I'd registered my PFS PC. It's still the only forum I've ever been on.

I actually kept the 'rules questions' page up on my smartphone for months because I didn't think I could find my way back if I ever closed it.

Oh, well, in that case you're doing impressively well! :-)

Thanks. : )

It's been about a year since I first posted on here. During that time I've managed to learn a few things. I can find my way back to these pages, I can use italics and bold for emphasis (probably too much) where before I just used CAPITALS which was interpreted as shouting.

I can quote people now; before, I had to hit 'reply' and delete the bits I didn't want. Also, I eventually clicked the button which turned out to be a PM that someone had posted about three weeks beforehand. They must have thought I was being rude to ignore them.

There're still things I can't do. I cant post a link to save my life, even though some kind person PMed me to try to teach me how. I can't get an avatar, and wouldn't know how to get the picture I want to be included in any list of avatar options.

And I've managed to get my typing down to just two fingers.

Silver Crusade

Alice Margatroid wrote:
You're touching on a lot here, Malachi, and a lot of it is quite... off. That said, you're very polite and honestly seem interested in learning, which I do appreciate.

Thanks Alice. : )

The 'wanting to seem more masculine/feminine' part is true as a general statement, but the specifics of what qualities are considered masculine/feminine vary quite a bit from culture to culture and even sub-culture to sub-culture.

Anyway, I appreciate your POV, and even though no one person can provide every insight, the more feedback I get the more I understand.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

There're still things I can't do. I cant post a link to save my life, even though some kind person PMed me to try to teach me how. I can't get an avatar, and wouldn't know how to get the picture I want to be included in any list of avatar options.

And I've managed to get my typing down to just two fingers.

Avatar: Go up to your My Accounts file. When the page loads, somewhere on the left/in the middle, should be a list of your Aliases. Somewhere around there should be an option to Change (or Select) Avatar.

Linking:

[url=http:webaddress}Say something cool that appears in blue[/url}

Except those }'s are ]s.

Liberty's Edge

Malachi, I will use the opportunity that your post about understanding provides to try and formalize my own understanding on these topics.

I apologize in advance if someone feels insulted by this post. I definitely do not wish it and I sincerely hope for people correcting me when I am wrong.

Note that I am not a native speaker and will probably mix words and I might end up sounding dismissive or something like that which is NOT my intent at all (basically the whole gender vs sex thing is unclear for me in english).

Note also that I am a cisgendered heterosexual man.

We start with the duality of Male/Female. And understand that it is really a CONTINUUM, even though it seems to be strongly polarized by the two "extremes".

In other words, it is my understanding that when given a choice on any of the points I list below, most people will choose "Male" or "Female" but some people will choose neither or both or any kind of mix really.

I can list several facets of someone's life that will be impacted by it.

- What you are, physically speaking.

- What most people or society identify you as being.

- What you identify yourself as being.

- What you want to look like.

- What people you are attracted to.

- What kind of personality traits you have.

This one is a big mix in fact as most people exhibit both "stereotypical" Male traits and "stereotypical" Female traits. And it has nothing to do with any of the rest. For example, even though I am clearly a cisgendered heterosexual male, I display some "qualities" or rather behaviours that would be usually associated with Female more than Male. Note that I am not sure if such stereotyping is actually cultural or universal.

Writing this post I feel like I am being somewhat arrogant/pompous. I do not wish to pigeonhole people. Rather I have been feeling the need for some time to clarify my understanding on these issues.

Once again, please correct me as needed.

Also I would like to thank the posters on this thread for sharing much of their life and inner feelings with the rest of us. I have learned of many situations in life which I did not know existed and I feel the better for it, as I believe it has killed some of my prejudices.

@ BOB and the other posters who recently expressed anguish at finding a fulfilling relationship. I can honestly tell you that it is just as difficult for everyone really. I do not wish at all to dismiss the difficulties you meet. Just that when you go deep into a relationship, you meet potential wreckage on most every subject. I can attest how difficult, worrying and sad it can be. And time-consuming. But I am also very happy to attest that with time and understanding you can indeed find the fulfilling relationship you are looking for. The twin keys to this are : BE YOURSELF and GET RID OF USELESS PEOPLE, those whose presence does not help or comfort you. This will make place in your life for people who are really worthy of it.

In all examples I have seen in my life, IT WORKS.

Be well.

Project Manager

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The reason I chose to reply to this post is the 'being girly' part. Evolution rewards those creatures that breed, and so those that more successfully find a mate are more likely to pass on their genes. To that end, males attract mates by emphasising their masculinity and females by emphasising their femininity. This could be anything from antler size to plumage.

This holds true for humanity as a whole. Men want to seem more masculine, women want to seem more feminine. Vive la difference! We are hardwired with this idea.

Really? Prove it. :-) Prove we're "hardwired" with the idea. Prove that the Western idea of "masculinity" is biological and not cultural. (That "most men want to seem masculine" is something, I think, that most people would agree with, but that they're *hardwired* to do so, rather than culturally influenced to do so? Not buying it.)

The problem with evo psych explanations for human behavior is that most evo psych isn't science. Science involves falsifiable hypotheses, it involves addressing data that don't match that which supports your hypothesis, etc. And because of this, science is generally more concerned with "how" than "why." ("Women in their 20s prefer older men" is a claim that can be tested. "Women in their 20s prefer older men because [reason]" is a claim that can't really be tested.) The "why" explanations aren't generally testable. All they will ever be is theory/opinion, not fact.


Mark Sweetman wrote:

Nice article that I got shared on FB

Edit: Noticed it's also linked to a blog by the mum about raising a 'gender-creative' son.

I saw that a few days ago. That guy's a good father.

I'm really hopeful for how things are going to go for the newest generation of trans people. I hope that transitioning late after a few decades in the closet (as happened with me) happens less and less because people find acceptance, support and information much sooner. Parents like the guy who wrote that article are helping to make that happen, as are articles like that one, which are more likely to appear in mainstream periodicals or on mainstream news shows these days.

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

While I can understand that what may be true for the broad swathe of humanity may not be true for individuals, there are still things I don't understand. For example, if lesbians are defined as females who are attracted to females and not to males, doesn't it follow that they are attracted to feminine qualities rather than masculine qualities? So why do so many lesbians try to look like men? Not trying to denigrate you in any way, just trying to get my head round it.

I still don't understand, no matter how many videos I've seen on the subject.

What constitutes "masculine" and "feminine" in western culture has changed a lot over the last few centuries, from fashion to social roles. Not too long ago, being desirable meant being large, full-bodies, and strong in an era when men wore high heels and stockings and makeup.

As for lesbians, the whole butch/femme dichotomy is largely a fiction. Yes, butch lesbians exist, and yes femme lesbians exist, but I know very, very few gay couples (male or female) where one is clearly "the man" and one is clearly "the woman". Using my wife and I as examples: I love working on cars and working with my hands, and I'm handy around the house. I like getting outdoors and sports and animals and getting muddy. But I also like makeup and love skirts and sweaters and love the ballet. My wife is a programmer who likes to analyze minute details and tinker with electronics, but she also loves to cook and cries at any remotely sappy part of a movie. Neither of us is especially masculine or especially feminine, and the same holds true for most gay couples I've met.

Silver Crusade

Jessica Price wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The reason I chose to reply to this post is the 'being girly' part. Evolution rewards those creatures that breed, and so those that more successfully find a mate are more likely to pass on their genes. To that end, males attract mates by emphasising their masculinity and females by emphasising their femininity. This could be anything from antler size to plumage.

This holds true for humanity as a whole. Men want to seem more masculine, women want to seem more feminine. Vive la difference! We are hardwired with this idea.

Really? Prove it. :-) Prove we're "hardwired" with the idea. Prove that the Western idea of "masculinity" is biological and not cultural. (That "most men want to seem masculine" is something, I think, that most people would agree with, but that they're *hardwired* to do so, rather than culturally influenced to do so? Not buying it.)

The problem with evo psych explanations for human behavior is that most evo psych isn't science. Science involves falsifiable hypotheses, it involves addressing data that don't match that which supports your hypothesis, etc. And because of this, science is generally more concerned with "how" than "why." ("Women in their 20s prefer older men" is a claim that can be tested. "Women in their 20s prefer older men because [reason]" is a claim that can't really be tested.) The "why" explanations aren't generally testable. All they will ever be is theory/opinion, not fact.

As I mentioned in my reply to Alice, the specifics of what is considered attractive varies massively from culture to culture, but the underlying evolutionary drive to reproduce (on a species-wide rather than an individual level) is true for all species, whether they reproduce sexually or not. Any phenotype which moved away from this is overwhelmingly unlikely to have passed on those genes to succeeding generations.

Sexual Selection once vied with Natural Selection as the best explanation for evolution, but eventually the Sexual Selection was realised as one particular kind of Natural Selection; in this case, the 'environment' to which each species was adapting was the competition for mates within the species. It was a huge advantage to be better at attracting a mate, and to do this a large proportion of species took the evolutionary path where males and females gradually increased the differences between the sexes, the males becoming more 'masculine' and the females becoming more 'feminine'. Since only the victors in this battle got to pass those genes on, the differences increased over the generations.

Sometimes this Sexual Selection can be so dominant an influence on the evolution of a species as a whole that it can lead to extinction! There was a species of deer in the near pre-history where the males whose antlers had the widest spread were the ones chosen by the females to breed. Generation by generation the antlers of the males got wider and wider until they became so wide, large and unwieldy that they had trouble negotiating their forest home and became easy prey; thus, they became extinct.

With humans, this value judgement is very heavily influenced by culture, but is not entirely divorced from biology. Most of this is unconscious behaviour. Experiments have been done where a research team went to night-clubs every weekend and took front and back full body photos of women, along with a saliva sample to check just where each woman was on her monthly cycle. The correlation between the most fertile time of the month with how much skin was showing was astonishing! 'Choosing' to dress in a certain way seems entirely a conscious choice, but we don't realise just how much our biology affects our decisions. Even those women who had absolutely no intention of getting pregnant, or who weren't attracted to men, displayed this same unconscious behaviour.

So, while culture/subculture has a huge effect on humanity in this regard, biology is still, unconsciously, choosing the most mate-worthy partner and trying to be mate-worthy ourselves, even with every conscious intention of avoiding reproduction.

The precise details of what is 'feminine' or 'masculine' vary, but there are many ways to (unconsciously) check for suitable mates. Youth (post-puberty), health, wealth etc. are constant throughout various cultures as qualities of a good mate, but the indicators of these qualities varies from culture to culture.

Take a tanned skin. Before Coco Channel made a tanned skin aspirational (by being obtained on expensive foreign holidays only within reach of the wealthy at the time) pale skin was a sign of wealth because the rich woman never needed to do any work outside in the sun, unlike the peasant girls who got nut-brown in summer.

A big-hipped woman was more likely to survive the rigours of childbirth, so big-hipped women were the ideal. Now the dangers of childbirth have been mitigated by advances in medicine, so now it's not so valued. Having enough wealth that you could afford to eat more than you needed to live made you fat, so fat people indicated wealth. Now, poor people in western economies are more likely to get fat because of a poor diet, so being thin indicates better health and is now seen as more attractive.

My point is this: although the specifics of what is considered attractive in men and women varies over time and culture, the underlying biological imperative of reproduction is what sub-consciously drives the whole thing.

Project Manager

That's all very nice, but it doesn't really address what I said, which is that all the "this is the evolutionary reason why women/men act this way" will ever be is theory and opinion, not fact. It's interesting speculation, but it's not science: it is only your opinion.

Silver Crusade

Jessica Price wrote:
That's all very nice, but it doesn't really address what I said, which is that all the "this is the evolutionary reason why women/men act this way" will ever be is theory and opinion, not fact. It's interesting speculation, but it's not science: it is only your opinion.

Do you have a more convincing hypothesis?

Incidentally, just to clarify:-

Jessica Price wrote:
Prove that the Western idea of "masculinity" is biological and not cultural.

I never said, wrote, thought or meant that 'masculinity'=current western ideals of masculinity. I hope that this, at least, is clear from my subsequent posts.

Project Manager

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
That's all very nice, but it doesn't really address what I said, which is that all the "this is the evolutionary reason why women/men act this way" will ever be is theory and opinion, not fact. It's interesting speculation, but it's not science: it is only your opinion.
Do you have a more convincing hypothesis?

Insofar as I don't spend a lot of time worrying about the origins of human behavior (honestly, I don't care if there's a biological reason for sexism -- part of being human is not being slaves to our biology), my hypothesis is as follows: human behavior is profoundly multifactorial, the result of an extraordinarily complex intersection of biology, culture, nurture, and random individual quirks.

But you're still missing my point: it doesn't *matter* whose opinion is more "convincing," they're both opinions, not fact, and not science.

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Incidentally, just to clarify:-

Jessica Price wrote:
Prove that the Western idea of "masculinity" is biological and not cultural.
I never said, wrote, thought or meant that 'masculinity'=current western ideals of masculinity. I hope that this, at least, is clear from my subsequent posts.

That actually undermines your assertions even more. What constitutes "masculinity" varies widely from culture to culture. If masculinity and the desire to be masculine were biologically determined, rather than culturally determined, it would look largely the same across cultures.

Project Manager

And to stop hijacking the thread and get back to makeup:

Bob, if you're looking for fun ideas for more showy eye makeup, I love this Pinterest board: http://www.pinterest.com/eyemakeupideas/eye-makeup-ideas/

Some of them actually link to tutorials. :-)

Silver Crusade

KSF, I agree completely.

What humans have in common with other species is the biological drive to reproduce combined with the evolutionary drive to be more successful at doing so.

Where humans differ is that we are not limited to these biological imperatives! We can choose whether or not we want to reproduce (and invent technologies that attempt to prevent it) and individuals don't have to worry about the survival of the species.

I don't doubt that other species produce individuals which may display behaviour that we would characterise as 'homosexual', and perhaps these individuals occur in a predictable proportion of their population. Humans do, and I don't think this is strange.

But humans, as affected as they are by their biology, are not slaves to that biology. Realising that our instincts still exist and still affect us in no way limits us. The other factors of our psychological makeup also affect us, and understanding that we are affected in a complex way by these varying factors actually helps us come to terms with who we are, both as a species and as individuals.

From the perspective of mainstream society, understanding that LGBT people make up a predicable part of any human population will help society as a whole become more accepting of LGBT people.

From the perspective of LGBT individuals, understanding how their biology affects them, combined with the reality that they are not limited by that biology in forging their own individual destinies, is surely empowering.

Silver Crusade

Jessica Price wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
That's all very nice, but it doesn't really address what I said, which is that all the "this is the evolutionary reason why women/men act this way" will ever be is theory and opinion, not fact. It's interesting speculation, but it's not science: it is only your opinion.
Do you have a more convincing hypothesis?

Insofar as I don't spend a lot of time worrying about the origins of human behavior (honestly, I don't care if there's a biological reason for sexism -- part of being human is not being slaves to our biology), my hypothesis is as follows: human behavior is profoundly multifactorial, the result of an extraordinarily complex intersection of biology, culture, nurture, and random individual quirks.

But you're still missing my point: it doesn't *matter* whose opinion is more "convincing," they're both opinions, not fact, and not science.

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Incidentally, just to clarify:-

Jessica Price wrote:
Prove that the Western idea of "masculinity" is biological and not cultural.
I never said, wrote, thought or meant that 'masculinity'=current western ideals of masculinity. I hope that this, at least, is clear from my subsequent posts.
That actually undermines your assertions even more. What constitutes "masculinity" varies widely from culture to culture. If masculinity and the desire to be masculine were biologically determined, rather than culturally determined, it would look largely the same across cultures.

Jessica, you know as well as I do that science moves forward using the scientific method. Among other things, people advance a hypothesis which matches observations of reality, then tries to prove it wrong! If it can't be, it becomes theory. Gravity is a theory.

The theory is only displaced if it is either proved wrong or a new hypothesis is postulated which better matches observation and which itself can't be disproved.

In this way, all science is tentative. But that doesn't stop it being science.

This means that the Burden of Proof is not on me to prove the unprovable. Opinion it is, but it is also science.

On the other matter, I illustrated in a previous post that no matter how variable the ideas of masculinity/femininity change over time and culture, in each case the subconscious urge to appear to be a good mate is at the root of most of it. The indicators vary hugely, but the underlying biology is still having its influence. For example, when a woman goes to a club (straight, gay or whatever) she may be horrified at the thought of getting pregnant, but her biology doesn't know this! If she is at the most receptive part of her cycle she will wear whatever she chooses....but what she chooses will be so much influenced by her biology that she'll wear the most revealing outfit she feels comfortable in because her biology is influencing her to show off what good genetics she has! Young, healthy, long legs, clear eyes, healthy body and hair, showing herself off to the best advantage.

None of us really like the idea that we are not in complete conscious control of our choices, but denying the truth won't help. If that were the case then 'abstinence' would be the most effective birth control method taught in schools, instead of being the method most likely to result in STDs and pregnancy. Trying to pretend that we are above our own biology is futile and damaging.

And the LGBT community should know this as well as anyone. Trying to deny your nature leads to unhappiness. I've read many stories in this very thread that testifies to this. But this natural state (for you) is not the only natural influence on you. Your body wants to breed even if you don't! This is true. Your gender/sexual preference is also true. Both things affect you, even if they seem to be telling you different things.

Understanding is always better than denial. I firmly believe that the world will be a better place when we all, straight or otherwise, realise both that we are affected by our biologies and instincts (which include LGBTness, for want of a better word), and are not limited by these things! Humans have the ability to forge their own destinies, and it is wiser to understand these sometimes contrary urges than it is to deny them.

Project Manager

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Jessica, you know as well as I do that science moves forward using the scientific method. Among other things, people advance a hypothesis which matches observations of reality, then tries to prove it wrong! If it can't be, it becomes theory. Gravity is a theory.

Not sure what this has to do with assertions that can't be proven or disproven.

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