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I'll admit it: I think I'm the good guy.

I think I'm the good guy because the other guys are the people who find my very existence profoundly offensive and want never to be reminded of it, as if I were rape or genocide personified. But they only want that because they have, in my country, lost the ability to end it at will. They have, more recently, lost the ability to imprison me for it or fine me for it. They have still not quite lost the ability to fire me for it.

They are aggrieved that I exist, but if I must exist then I must exist in the maximum possible state of misery and deprivation. I must exist in hiding, or else. If they can't have that, I must exist only to sit in the bathtub and apply the razor blade. There, I'm sure, I would find charity. I could slash however I liked, the fast way or the way that takes a long time. Either one is cool by them.

They can go right on thinking they're the good guys. They always have. They can go right on telling themselves that since they haven't personally beaten anyone to death that what they do in the ballot box, on message boards, and elsewhere has nothing to do with all of that and they are not at all of the same party. They have nothing personally against us, but they don't want is dirtying up their RPG products with our presence or dirtying up their marriages by sharing the word or dirtying up their swimming pools or teaching their children or breathing their air.

They can tell their own fables. We don't have to pretend to believe them.


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Gancanagh wrote:


How can it be strange that somebody is born in the wrong body?

With respect, that's not a very good argument to make on a lot of people.

Personally, I find it ludicrous because I don't think the body that you have is teleological. I don't recall ordering the body I have out of a catalog, and there's certainly no shop to which I can return it because I wanted it to be four inches taller. I'm not especially religious, and I don't think there's anyone to "pick" a body for me.

Turning it around, to someone who actually believes in God and who believes that God plans things, God planned the body one was given and by the usual omni-* that God exhibits, chose that body correctly, in the same way that He does everything correctly.

While I understand (intellectually) your feelings, that's largely only because I already agree with the politics. The fact that it's possible to do something and that doing that something makes some people happier and harms none means that it should be done.

But I feel you should dye your hair because blond hair makes you happier, not because you were "born with the wrong hair." I find the idea of "the wrong hair" to be ludicrous.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Isn't it adorable when prejudiced people try sooo hard to prove they aren't prejudiced? I always wonder if they're attempting to fool us or themselves. The best part is, the fact they make such an effort to hide it realy does show how much the world has changed for the better.

If a few people decide to ragequit Paizo because they can't have their way... well, I suppose I'll just have to allocate more of my disposable income towards Paizo's coffers to make up the difference. Dragon Age 3 won't be out for a while after all, and I can wait until Dynasty Warriors 8 is down in price. (Yes I'm a diehard DW fan. No, I have no excuse).


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Drejk wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Edit: Now I have a mental picture of Fremen planting thumpers to call kaiju Christine Jorgensen like a Shai Hulud.
Do they call her to... or... Oh, never mind!

Stilgar: "Usul, we have trans*sign the likes of which even God has never seen." {cue Toto riff}

Orfamay Quest wrote:
KSF wrote:
What are transwomen doing for the equivalent of electrolysis in Golarion, those that don't have access to a magic whammy to do the full change?
My understanding is that depilatory creams date back to Ancient Egypt at least. (The chemicals involved were quicklime or vinegar, I believe.) So there'd be no problem with buying the Cheliax version of Nair, especially with the toys that alchemists can produce in Pathfinder. My understanding is that they've got better hangover cures than we do... so better Nair wouldn't surprise me.

I hope so, real world Nair is horrible foul stuff.

Silver Crusade

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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
or Zon-Kuthon reverts to Dou-Bral, I want an AP that lets the PCs have a hand in making that happen.

whistles innocently

hides notes


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Mikaze wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
or Zon-Kuthon reverts to Dou-Bral, I want an AP that lets the PCs have a hand in making that happen.

whistles innocently

hides notes

Psst...Mikaze...


Orfamay Quest wrote:
KSF wrote:
What are transwomen doing for the equivalent of electrolysis in Golarion, those that don't have access to a magic whammy to do the full change? I mean, I guess there's always close shaving and careful makeup application. But I wonder if there's any tiered set of economic options like in the real world?

My understanding is that depilatory creams date back to Ancient Egypt at least. (The chemicals involved were quicklime or vinegar, I believe.) So there'd be no problem with buying the Cheliax version of Nair, especially with the toys that alchemists can produce in Pathfinder. My understanding is that they've got better hangover cures than we do... so better Nair wouldn't surprise me.

Huh. Cool.

Silver Crusade

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@Tirisfal: How is it that him being drawn bloodless is even squickier in some ways? D:

Alice Margatroid wrote:


This reminds me... Mikaze, where is your next instalment of your short story thingy? Y'know, the firefly... :)

takes a look at his forum project backlog

thousand-yard stare

I need to finish the story promised for the dudes first, but there absolutely will be more "firefly" stuff if folks want. :) (not sure whether or not to leave Katryn and Alma where they are though, with normal non-adventurer lives. Maybe new characters)

Trans* and BDSM folk still need their stories too...hmm...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:

Personally, I find it ludicrous because I don't think the body that you have is teleological. I don't recall ordering the body I have out of a catalog, and there's certainly no shop to which I can return it because I wanted it to be four inches taller. I'm not especially religious, and I don't think there's anyone to "pick" a body for me.

There but for the grace of God go you. Or, consider yourself lucky that you aren't in their position, because you would most assureadly say differently. It's so very easy to dismiss others when you don't have to experience what they do.

Consider body integrity identity disorder, wherein the sufferer is convinced that one or more of their limbs do not belong to them. So intense is this feeling that sufferers have considered, and even carried out, the amputation of a healthy limb. Do you think these people would take such extreme measures were it not for comparably extreme feelings? You might find the idea of one of your limbs not belonging to you "ludicrous," but again, just be thankful that you are free to be ignorant on the matter.

Because guess what? The brain is an extraordinarily complex organ. It's easy to take it for granted when everything's running smoothly, but the moment there's a glitch, the whole world can suddenly turn on its head. Lose a limb and you might be stuck with phantom limb syndrome. How ludicrous is that? Feeling a limb that you don't even have. Or better yet, how about supernumerary phantom limb, wherein you are convinced of having a limb that was never there to begin with. Ludicrous right? Or hey, if you fall and hit your head even slightly, or have a stroke, your entire personality can change utterly and entirely. You could be a whole new person, a stranger to all those you knew and loved you, because of a bump on the noggin. Now that is ludicrous!

Or perhaps it's not ludicrous. Perhaps it's just how some people are, and your inability to understand that should not impede your ability to empathize with them. Just a thought.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Gancanagh wrote:


How can it be strange that somebody is born in the wrong body?

With respect, that's not a very good argument to make on a lot of people.

Personally, I find it ludicrous because I don't think the body that you have is teleological. I don't recall ordering the body I have out of a catalog, and there's certainly no shop to which I can return it because I wanted it to be four inches taller. I'm not especially religious, and I don't think there's anyone to "pick" a body for me.

Well, it's a simple expression for a complicated subject. One current theory is that (for whatever reason, probably in the womb), the body gets gendered one way, the brain another. So there's a mismatch. And attempts to change the brain don't seem to work. Hence, "born in the wrong body."

It's just a phrase, and not one every trans person uses. I don't tend to use it myself, but I understand what people are saying when they do.

Edit to add:

Orfamay Quest wrote:
But I feel you should dye your hair because blond hair makes you happier, not because you were "born with the wrong hair." I find the idea of "the wrong hair" to be ludicrous.

Born with the wrong hair? Okay, a bit silly. Born in the wrong body? Not silly (taking into account the caveat that it's a simple expression for a complex etc.) The brain is a bit more complex than hair, and the interaction between the brain and the rest of the body is a bit more complex between that between hair and the body.

Orfamay Quest wrote:
While I understand (intellectually) your feelings, that's largely only because I already agree with the politics.

It's possible to go a step beyond intellectual understanding (which if I understand you is just placing the whole subject within a black box and leaving it at that). As Generic Villain says, empathy is worth trying out here.


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Mikaze wrote:

@Tirisfal: How is it that him being drawn bloodless is even squickier in some ways? D:

Alice Margatroid wrote:


This reminds me... Mikaze, where is your next instalment of your short story thingy? Y'know, the firefly... :)

takes a look at his forum project backlog

thousand-yard stare

I need to finish the story promised for the dudes first, but there absolutely will be more "firefly" stuff if folks want. :) (not sure whether or not to leave Katryn and Alma where they are though, with normal non-adventurer lives)

I just want more of your writing in general


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Gancanagh wrote:
How can it be strange that somebody is born in the wrong body?

Well, it's strange because it's often new and unfamiliar, even alien to them. I may like girls, but it rarely even occurs for me to think about what it must be like to be male, and then it's usually only because I don't want to sit for a public restroom. Heck, there's too many gay and lesbian people who give trans* people tons of undeserved crap and would happily fling them under any old bus to get ahead. It doesn't help that much of tran* history has been erased or whitewashed, sometimes again by gays and lesbians, or that there is always some lazily-written cop drama or Jerry Springer show willing to perpetuate untrue trans* images for derision and ridicule.

While I (rarely) thought of it, to younger me, being trans* seemed rare or unusual until I met my first trans* friend (crush) in high school. Later in college courses, I found out all about the two dozen+ different types of intersexuality, and the rich worldwide history of hijras, two-spirits, fa'afafines, Albanian sworn virgins, kathoeys, and other gender-spectrum identities. If I hadn't the opportunities I had to know trans* people or do my own research, there's still I good chance I would still think it rare or unusual.


Generic Villain wrote:
There but for the grace of God go you. Or, consider yourself lucky that you aren't in their position, because you would most assureadly say differently. It's so very easy to dismiss others when you don't have to experience what they do.

To be fair to Orfamy Quest, it can be difficult to wrap your head around if you haven't experienced it, or don't know someone experiencing it. It would, however, be cool if he did attempt to do so.


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KSF wrote:
Generic Villain wrote:
There but for the grace of God go you. Or, consider yourself lucky that you aren't in their position, because you would most assureadly say differently. It's so very easy to dismiss others when you don't have to experience what they do.

To be fair to Orfamy Quest, it can be difficult to wrap your head around if you haven't experienced it, or don't know someone experiencing it. It would, however, be cool if he did attempt to do so.

Alternatively, you could read what I actually wrote, and realize that if you're trying to persuade people that you're normal, using language that sounds to the uninitiated like you're screaming yellow bonkers is not necessarily the first and best option.

"I wear underwear on my head because I like it" makes sense even if the listener is normally dressed.

"I wear underwear on my head because I have the wrong body configuration"... Well, let me just say that that may be useful as a metaphor. That's about all I can say for it, though.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
KSF wrote:

To be fair to Orfamy Quest, it can be difficult to wrap your head around if you haven't experienced it, or don't know someone experiencing it. It would, however, be cool if he did attempt to do so.

It is absolutely his - and everyone else's - right to dismiss the plight of others. Very easy to do and by far the simplest, most expedient way to handle such matters. Because sometimes thinking is hard.


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KSF wrote:
It would, however, be cool if he did attempt to do so.

I think a good chunk of people would at least try a short vacation in the shoes of the other sex, especially once any stigma was lost and there was a guarantee they wouldn't get stuck against their wishes.

Hmmm, I bet Cheliaxian or Nexian well-to-do folk with easy access to an extended alter self might throw gender bender or "ethnicity bender" parties, maybe even spend an evening temporarily polymorphed into tieflings or halflings. How scandalous!


Orfamay Quest wrote:
KSF wrote:
Generic Villain wrote:
There but for the grace of God go you. Or, consider yourself lucky that you aren't in their position, because you would most assureadly say differently. It's so very easy to dismiss others when you don't have to experience what they do.

To be fair to Orfamy Quest, it can be difficult to wrap your head around if you haven't experienced it, or don't know someone experiencing it. It would, however, be cool if he did attempt to do so.

Alternatively, you could read what I actually wrote, and realize that if you're trying to persuade people that you're normal, using language that sounds to the uninitiated like you're screaming yellow bonkers is not necessarily the first and best option.

"I wear underwear on my head because I like it" makes sense even if the listener is normally dressed.

"I wear underwear on my head because I have the wrong body configuration"... Well, let me just say that that may be useful as a metaphor. That's about all I can say for it, though.

Yeah, I got that the first time. I guess I'd say when someone is using language in which you are uninitiated, you have the option of asking for clarification or of educating yourself, or asking others to help educate you ("That phrase doesn't make sense to me. Could you explain what you mean?" Rather than "You're screaming yellow bonkers.")

However, the "born in the wrong body" phrase is actually the common way of describing the trans condition in the wider, non-trans culture, in the US at least. It's not an obscure phrase. Surely, you've heard it used before. (If you haven't, sorry.)

On the other hand, as I tried to say, yes, it can be a difficult concept for some. So, I don't know.

Personally, I don't use the phrase because I think it oversimplifies things, and don't think I've ever used it in any of my trans-related discussions with cisgender people. [Hey! "cisgender" doesn't get marked as misspelled. Cool.]

Sorry, I don't mean to seem like I'm attacking you. I understand what you're getting at, was just trying to offer some clarity to what the other poster was saying, in case you weren't getting it.

Contributor

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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Gancanagh wrote:


How can it be strange that somebody is born in the wrong body?

With respect, that's not a very good argument to make on a lot of people.

Personally, I find it ludicrous because I don't think the body that you have is teleological. I don't recall ordering the body I have out of a catalog, and there's certainly no shop to which I can return it because I wanted it to be four inches taller. I'm not especially religious, and I don't think there's anyone to "pick" a body for me.

Except that it's seemingly quantifiable.

The emerging scientific consensus is that internal gender identity and the gender dysphoria experienced by transgender persons is rooted mostly or entirely in patterns of masculinization/feminization of the brain versus the rest of their body. Likely due to in-utero hormonal flux during key stages of fetal development, additionally mediated by underlying genetics and epigenetic factors.

Portions of the average cis-gendered female brain are different from the cis-gendered male brain, and quite a few studies have found that the brains of transmen and transwomen are in-between the two (on a continuum, some being closer to one or the other). They quite literally have a brain that doesn't match their body, and it can be anywhere from mildly uncomfortable to agonizing depending on how off the match is.

It's also very difficult to explain just how it feels to someone who blessedly has never had to experience it. But the scientific literature is starting to increasingly show that it has a root physical cause. At least from my own reading of the available literature (and I am a scientist, a published one, though not in this specific area). As with all science, the consensus can shift with more evidence, but it's getting rather solid on the what within the brain, with the why it's shifted versus the baseline being the part open to flux.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:


Alternatively, you could read what I actually wrote, and realize that if you're trying to persuade people that you're normal, using language that sounds to the uninitiated like you're screaming yellow bonkers is not necessarily the first and best option.

"I wear underwear on my head because I like it" makes sense even if the listener is normally dressed.

"I wear underwear on my head because I have the wrong body configuration"... Well, let me just say that that may be useful as a metaphor. That's about all I can say for it, though.

I did indeed read what you wrote. A few points: who, exactly, is trying to prove anything to you? And who is it that decides what constitutes normal? This isn't about you champ - it's about other people attempting to live their lives as best they can. Your refusal to accept them is a private matter that no amount of external reasoning will change. Fortunately no one needs to change your mind, because far more enlightenend bodies such as the APA have already put their foot down on the issue of transgendered people. Their conclusion: it's a thing.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:

Alternatively, you could read what I actually wrote, and realize that if you're trying to persuade people that you're normal, using language that sounds to the uninitiated like you're screaming yellow bonkers is not necessarily the first and best option.

"I wear underwear on my head because I like it" makes sense even if the listener is normally dressed.

"I wear underwear on my head because I have the wrong body configuration"... Well, let me just say that that may be useful as a metaphor. That's about all I can say for it, though.

I don't think your examples or the "screaming yellow bonkers" bit is fair to what either Gancanagh's or Generic Villain's last posts. At best, it'd likely only cause the listener to ask for a little more clarification, not look at them as if they're a loon.

Edit: Ninja'd!

Dark Archive

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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Hmmm, I bet Cheliaxian or Nexian well-to-do folk with easy access to an extended alter self might throw gender bender or "ethnicity bender" parties, maybe even spend an evening temporarily polymorphed into tieflings or halflings. How scandalous!

[game tangent in non-game thread]

It might even be fashionable to do so to add fuel to their own dismissal of the plight of those they oppress. Just as a bigot in the modern day might say, 'I'm not a racist, I have black friends,' before saying something totally racist, a Chelaxian might spend a few hours in the guise of a Halfling at a 'let's all be halflings' BDSM party, and then use that experience to *completely* dismiss the plight of Halflings in Cheliax, because he's 'done that, and it wasn't so bad.'

Of course he 'did that' in a controlled environment, by his own choosing, for a couple of hours, with full knowledge that it was going to wear off and he was going to go back to being an entitled prat with more gold than sense.

On the other side of the fence, a 'tourist' 'great white hope' abolitionist from Andoran might do the exact same thing, and then brag about how he'd 'walked a mile in their little shoes' to 'prove' how enlightened he was and 'share their burden,' while the halflings he works with shake their heads quietly and try not to correct him on how he is missing the point entirely.

"No really, I went to a Halloween party once dressed as a girl. I totally get what you trans people go through your entire lives." :/
[/game tangent in non-game thread]


Generic Villain wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


Alternatively, you could read what I actually wrote, and realize that if you're trying to persuade people that you're normal, using language that sounds to the uninitiated like you're screaming yellow bonkers is not necessarily the first and best option.

"I wear underwear on my head because I like it" makes sense even if the listener is normally dressed.

"I wear underwear on my head because I have the wrong body configuration"... Well, let me just say that that may be useful as a metaphor. That's about all I can say for it, though.

I did indeed read what you wrote. A few points: who, exactly, is trying to prove anything to you? And who is it that decides what constitutes normal? This isn't about you champ - it's about other people attempting to live their lives as best they can. Your refusal to accept them is a private matter that no amount of external reasoning will change. Fortunately no one needs to change your mind, because far more enlightenend bodies such as the APA have already put their foot down on the issue of transgendered people. Their conclusion: it's a thing.

I agree with what you're saying here, but I actually get the impression, from OQ's posts, that he or she accepts that we exist, and should do what's necessary medically to survive:

Orfamay Quest wrote:
While I understand (intellectually) your feelings, that's largely only because I already agree with the politics. The fact that it's possible to do something and that doing that something makes some people happier and harms none means that it should be done.

That's an improvement from the bile I've seen from plenty of other people (never read comments under any trans-related news article).

Thanks for the support, though. Seriously.


KSF wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


Alternatively, you could read what I actually wrote, and realize that if you're trying to persuade people that you're normal, using language that sounds to the uninitiated like you're screaming yellow bonkers is not necessarily the first and best option.

"I wear underwear on my head because I like it" makes sense even if the listener is normally dressed.

"I wear underwear on my head because I have the wrong body configuration"... Well, let me just say that that may be useful as a metaphor. That's about all I can say for it, though.

Yeah, I got that the first time. I guess I'd say when someone is using language in which you are uninitiated, you have the option of asking for clarification or of educating yourself, or asking others to help educate you ("That phrase doesn't make sense to me. Could you explain what you mean?" Rather than "You're screaming yellow bonkers.")

Yes. Those are indeed my choices. However, you glossed over your choice of using language that is clear to the uninitiated.

This isn't about me. This is about everyone who reads that expression. Even if 2/3 of the people who read it think "hmm, I should ask for clarification," that's still 1/3 of the reachable people who you just wrote off through a poorly chosen phrase.

Quote:


Personally, I don't use the phrase because I think it oversimplifies things, and don't think I've ever used it in any of my trans-related discussions with cisgender people.

I think that's much better from a tactical standpoint. The point of this kind of discussion is specifically not to alienate the cisgendered.


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Todd Stewart wrote:

The emerging scientific consensus is that internal gender identity and the gender dysphoria experienced by transgender persons is rooted mostly or entirely in patterns of masculinization/feminization of the brain versus the rest of their body. Likely due to in-utero hormonal flux during key stages of fetal development, additionally mediated by underlying genetics and epigenetic factors.

Portions of the average cis-gendered female brain are different from the cis-gendered male brain, and quite a few studies have found that the brains of transmen and transwomen are in-between the two (on a continuum, some being closer to one or the other). They quite literally have a brain that doesn't match their body, and it can be anywhere from mildly uncomfortable to agonizing depending on how off the match is.

It's also very difficult to explain just how it feels to someone who blessedly has never had to experience it. But the scientific literature is starting to increasingly show that it has a root physical cause. At least from my own reading of the available literature (and I am a scientist, a published one, though not in this specific area). As with all science, the consensus can shift with more evidence, but it's getting rather solid on the what within the brain, with the why it's shifted versus the baseline being the part open to flux.

For folks intelligent enough to digest the implications of current research, which are pretty solid at this point, this means that discriminating against people who are born trans is not materially different from discriminating against people who are born with a skin color you don't like, or missing a leg, or with an extra finger.

What do you call somebody who discriminates against people for a medical accident of birth? Ignorant, bigoted, evil, jerks, @$$holes and even less nice terms come to mind. At the very least, they are clearly the bad guys.

Silver Crusade

Set wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Hmmm, I bet Cheliaxian or Nexian well-to-do folk with easy access to an extended alter self might throw gender bender or "ethnicity bender" parties, maybe even spend an evening temporarily polymorphed into tieflings or halflings. How scandalous!

[game tangent in non-game thread]

It might even be fashionable to do so to add fuel to their own dismissal of the plight of those they oppress. Just as a bigot in the modern day might say, 'I'm not a racist, I have black friends,' before saying something totally racist, a Chelaxian might spend a few hours in the guise of a Halfling at a 'let's all be halflings' BDSM party, and then use that experience to *completely* dismiss the plight of Halflings in Cheliax, because he's 'done that, and it wasn't so bad.'

Of course he 'did that' in a controlled environment, by his own choosing, for a couple of hours, with full knowledge that it was going to wear off and he was going to go back to being an entitled prat with more gold than sense.

On the other side of the fence, a 'tourist' 'great white hope' abolitionist from Andoran might do the exact same thing, and then brag about how he'd 'walked a mile in their little shoes' to 'prove' how enlightened he was and 'share their burden,' while the halflings he works with shake their heads quietly and try not to correct him on how he is missing the point entirely.

"No really, I went to a Halloween party once dressed as a girl. I totally get what you trans people go through your entire lives." :/
[/game tangent in non-game thread]

Thanks to both of you for providing the most perfect and believable character-establishing moment ever for a Chelish NPC. That's getting used in Shattered Star. :)

And for raising the possibility of Andoren "slacktivism".


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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

Alternatively, you could read what I actually wrote, and realize that if you're trying to persuade people that you're normal, using language that sounds to the uninitiated like you're screaming yellow bonkers is not necessarily the first and best option.

"I wear underwear on my head because I like it" makes sense even if the listener is normally dressed.

"I wear underwear on my head because I have the wrong body configuration"... Well, let me just say that that may be useful as a metaphor. That's about all I can say for it, though.

I don't think your examples or the "screaming yellow bonkers" bit is fair to what either Gancanagh's or Generic Villain's last posts. At best, it'd likely only cause the listener to ask for a little more clarification, not look at them as if they're a loon.

Actually, I stand behind "screaming yellow bonkers." If you want me to use more technical language, "sufferering from a clinical mental illness listed in the most recent edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders of the APA under the heading 'gender dysphoria.'"

Yes, that's right. If "there [is] a marked difference between the individual’s expressed/experienced gender and the gender others would assign him or her," you may have an actual, certifiable, mental disorder. (The actual criteria include a little bit more, but this is the part that the average nonspecialist would focus on.) You can talk all you like about how this document is supposed to be diagnostic and not pejorative, but the negative attitudes towards mental disorders are pretty universal across the world. (The name of the condition was changed to "dysphoria" instead of "disorder" for exactly this reason, but the handbook is still a handbook of "disorders," so that's not that much of an improvement.)

There are enough people out there who still think that simple homosexuality is a mental disorder, and that was removed from the DSM in the 70s. If you think people aren't already looking at transfolk "as if they're a loon," I think you're deluding yourself. My point is that one doesn't need to provide them with more reason to feel that way.

I'd go farther, and say that one normatively shouldn't provide them with more reason to feel that way.


KSF wrote:


Thanks for the support, though. Seriously.

You're welcome. Seriously. It's a very important issue,... and one that unfortunately has a very sophisticated propaganda machine on the Wrong Side.

Like most civil rights, I think the Right Side will eventually win. But how long it takes will depend greatly on how the arguments are presented.

Contributor

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Here's one recent study worth reading:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3665407/


Orfamay Quest wrote:

Yes. Those are indeed my choices. However, you glossed over your choice of using language that is clear to the uninitiated.

This isn't about me. This is about everyone who reads that expression. Even if 2/3 of the people who read it think "hmm, I should ask for clarification," that's still 1/3 of the reachable people who you just wrote off through a poorly chosen phrase.

Okay, I'll just point out that a) I wasn't the one who used the phrase, so it wasn't a matter of my "glossing over my choice of using language that is clear to the initiated" (or unclear to the uninitiated).

And b) this is specifically an LGBT thread, so the original poster was probably not incorrect in their assumption that most of the people reading their post would get what they meant.

And c) if you agree with the politics involved (thank you for that), then you might also be aware of some of the issues trans people face, and the stigma often attached by the larger non-LGBT culture to trans people, particularly with regards to mental health. And if that's the case, you might try more tactful language yourself, rather than referring to someone as "bonkers."

Anyways, peace. Not looking for an argument, just offering education if it's wanted.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I don't actually know any trans people - I never have. Or more specifically, I've never known anyone who opened up to me about being transgendered. However I'm also a firm believer that anyone who calls another person "ludicrous" for being who and what they are, are themselves dangerously close-minded. I say dangerous because, historically speaking, that's the kind of mentality that has lead to travesties like eugenics, forced sterilization, and unnecessary institutionalization. It's a blessing that in modern-day America that is no longer a threat, but it only remains so as long as we're vigilant against it.

Does it make me close-minded for not accepting others' close-mindedness? Perhaps it does. Yet that is one form of prejudice I just can't feel bad about harboring.

Contributor

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Generic Villain wrote:


Does it make me close-minded for not accepting others' close-mindedness? Perhaps it does. Yet that is one form of prejudice I just can't feel bad about harboring.

No it doesn't necessarily.

It's a bit of a paradox, but I think the famous Philosopher of Science, Sir Karl Popper said it best, "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
KSF wrote:


Thanks for the support, though. Seriously.

You're welcome. Seriously. It's a very important issue,... and one that unfortunately has a very sophisticated propaganda machine on the Wrong Side.

Like most civil rights, I think the Right Side will eventually win. But how long it takes will depend greatly on how the arguments are presented.

Oh, that was actually directed at Generic Villain.

But while I was offended by your one post, as I said in earlier, I appreciate that you're able to support trans people politically if not intellectually. (I will take what I can get in this world.) The latter is readily achievable, though. Try the link that Todd Stewart posted above for a start.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

I don't think your examples or the "screaming yellow bonkers" bit is fair to what either Gancanagh's or Generic Villain's last posts. At best, it'd likely only cause the listener to ask for a little more clarification, not look at them as if they're a loon.

Actually, I stand behind "screaming yellow bonkers." If you want me to use more technical language, "sufferering from a clinical mental illness listed in the most recent edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders of the APA under the heading 'gender dysphoria.'"

You're citing language in the DSM IV as a reason Joe Offthestreet is going to look at what they said as weird? How many average Joes have even heard of the DSM IV? Especially when 29% of LA Republicans blame Obama for the poor response to Katrina, even though he wouldn't take office for another 3 years. I would imagine that "born in the wrong body" would convey the meaning much better to Average Joe than citing a lot of big medical terms.


Generic Villain wrote:

I don't actually know any trans people - I never have. Or more specifically, I've never known anyone who opened up to me about being transgendered. However I'm also a firm believer that anyone who calls another person "ludicrous" for being who and what they are, are themselves dangerously close-minded. I say dangerous because, historically speaking, that's the kind of mentality that has lead to travesties like eugenics, forced sterilization, and unnecessary institutionalization. It's a blessing that in modern-day America that is no longer a threat, but it only remains so as long as we're vigilant against it.

Does it make me close-minded for not accepting others' close-mindedness? Perhaps it does. Yet that is one form of prejudice I just can't feel bad about harboring.

Dude (it is dude, right?), I totally get where you're coming from. You're not close-minded. You're passionate and engaged, which is a good thing.

I think, in the face of various forms of discrimination, whether it be homophobia or biphobia or transphobia or whatever, it's up to the individual to decide how to respond, how best to achieve equality for LGBT people.

Personally, I try to hold back unleashing my anger until I'm certain it's necessary. But that's as much a function of having dealt with angry people while growing up, and of having been relatively lucky so far in my transition as anything else. My approach may change somewhere down the road.

I hope nothing I posted in the above conversation came across as a rebuke to you, and I apologize if it did.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
I would imagine that "born in the wrong body" would convey the meaning much better to Average Joe than citing a lot of big medical terms.

Yeah, I'm sure that's why the term has persisted and continues to be used, particularly in the media and in the age of the soundbite.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


Actually, I stand behind "screaming yellow bonkers." If you want me to use more technical language, "sufferering from a clinical mental illness listed in the most recent edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders of the APA under the heading 'gender dysphoria.'"

You're citing language in the DSM IV as a reason Joe Offthestreet is going to look at what they said as weird? How many average Joes have even heard of the DSM IV?

Lord, no. Joe Offthestreet already think that transpeople are weird. And the Republican propaganda machine is going to encourage him in that belief, and seize on anything it can find to do it.

And language like "born in the wrong body" is one thing it's happy to seize on, because Mr. Offthestreet doesn't know the in-group language, and is going to find the concept not merely disturbing, but actively nonsensical. So if he wants to know whether transgendered people are actively crazy, then he goes to the DSM.

Quote:
I would imagine that "born in the wrong body" would convey the meaning much better to Average Joe than citing a lot of big medical terms.

I would imagine so as well, But saying "I'm not happy being a man/woman" is, at least in my opinion, even more accessible.


Todd Stewart wrote:

Here's one recent study worth reading:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3665407/

Thanks.

I wonder if anyone's done one yet where they follow people through HRT, starting before they start, continuing for two or three years into it, say. I'd be curious about the results. I know that within 2 or 3 days of starting on estrogen and a T-blocker, I could mentally feel it - there'd been a kind of a low level pressure or, not a pain exactly, it's hard to describe, but whatever it was, it'd been there for as long as I could remember, and suddenly it was gone. I've read other transwomen who've had similar experiences. It'd be interesting to see just what is going on when that happens.

Silver Crusade

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In Monte Python's The Life Of Brian there is a scene at the arena where Eric Idle's character insisted that he should 'have the right to be a woman' and 'have the right to have a baby'.

The incredulous responses are quite accurate portrayals of the responses of people nowadays, if those people haven't been educated somehow in these matters.

We can't deny the genuine incredulity of the 'average' person, but is that incredulous response right or wrong?

Discuss.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

I

We can't deny the genuine incredulity of the 'average' person, but is that incredulous response right or wrong?

Discuss.

Irrelevant. If the responses are wrong, and you call them wrong, you've perhaps insulted the people who hold them, but you haven't actually changed their opinions. You've probably made it harder to change their opinion, in fact.

Their opinions are what they are; if you disagree with them, the important thing is not to label their opinions, but to change them.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
And language like "born in the wrong body" is one thing it's happy to seize on, because Mr. Offthestreet doesn't know the in-group language, and is going to find the concept not merely disturbing, but actively nonsensical.

You know, I'm not certain it actually is "in-group" language. Or if it's current "in-group" language. (Terminology evolves quickly and is sometimes strongly debated, sometimes along generational lines.)

I think it's more accurate to describe it as language that arose at the intersection between trans culture and larger mainstream culture, out of an attempt to put a difficult to describe experience into simple terms.

Guess I'd have to read up on the term to know for certain, but that's my current impression.

Orfamay Quest wrote:
But saying "I'm not happy being a man/woman" is, at least in my opinion, even more accessible.

The difficulty there is that it's easy for someone to respond to that by saying, to an ftm for example, "Okay, stop wearing dresses and makeup then. Stop conforming to societal notions of femininity, that should be enough." I've seen that comment, or variations thereof, plenty of times from well-meaning non-trans individuals.

It also makes it sound like it might be temporary, and might go away, particularly under the right conditions (which is actually something some trans people hope for initially - this is why, I think, a lot of mtf's sign up for military service).

Saying "I'm not happy being a man/woman" doesn't really capture how fundamental the dysphoria can be. I think it's less accurate and less useful than "born in the wrong body."


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

In Monte Python's The Life Of Brian there is a scene at the arena where Eric Idle's character insisted that he should 'have the right to be a woman' and 'have the right to have a baby'.

The incredulous responses are quite accurate portrayals of the responses of people nowadays, if those people haven't been educated somehow in these matters.

We can't deny the genuine incredulity of the 'average' person, but is that incredulous response right or wrong?

Discuss.

Speaking only for myself, I think it's less a matter of whether or not an incredulous response is right or wrong and more a matter of whether that response is a starting point which they can move beyond, or an end point, an "I have made up my mind and will not change it" point.

Also, I've been expecting incredulous responses from some people, but haven't gotten any yet, out of the 40 or 50 people to whom I'm out. (And I'm aware that I'm lucky in that regard.)

What exactly is an "average" person these days?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
KSF wrote:
Personally, I try to hold back unleashing my anger until I'm certain it's necessary. But that's as much a function of having dealt with angry people while growing up, and of having been relatively lucky so far in my transition as anything else. My approach may change somewhere down the road.

I am typically willing to engage others in a more even-handed manner. Alas, recent rabid stupidity on another thread has left me a bit raw. I know full well that anonymously browbeating others on a message board will achieve nothing but more raw feelings, but damned if it doesn't feel good.

On a more pragmatic note, I also know that no amount of logic, science, or proof will convince someone of something when they have already made up their mind. It's called confirmation bias and we all do it, all the time. Humans aren't geat at being logical beings. We think with our emotions first and foremost, and passion is the only language that matters when it comes to passionate issues.

There is no resolution. There is only a generation-spanning conversation.


Generic Villain wrote:
There is no resolution. There is only a generation-spanning conversation.

Well put, sir. (As was the rest of your post.)


KSF wrote:


Also, I've been expecting incredulous responses from some people, but haven't gotten any yet (out of the 40 or 50 people to whom I'm out). What exactly is an "average" person these days?

The "average" person is considerably more accepting now than in 1973 or whenever Life of Brian came out, but you're also [probably] not looking at a representative sample of humanity, or even of the United States. (Which is probably good from your perspective; I'm sure it makes you happier.) There are probably some people who are flat-out unreachable, but I live in hope the the "average" people who filmed the attack on Chrissy Lee Polis instead of intervening will realize that this is uncool....


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
KSF wrote:
Well put, sir. (As was the rest of your post.)

Thanks.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
KSF wrote:


Also, I've been expecting incredulous responses from some people, but haven't gotten any yet (out of the 40 or 50 people to whom I'm out). What exactly is an "average" person these days?
The "average" person is considerably more accepting now than in 1973 or whenever Life of Brian came out, but you're also [probably] not looking at a representative sample of humanity, or even of the United States. (Which is probably good from your perspective; I'm sure it makes you happier.) There are probably some people who are flat-out unreachable, but I live in hope the the "average" people who filmed the attack on Chrissy Lee Polis instead of intervening will realize that this is uncool....

I was unclear. I wasn't trying to posit my experience as average. Just that it's hard to say what constitutes an average person.

I don't know, though, some of those people I referred to are in their 20s, and I get the impression that there's a generational shift on LGBT issues going on, at least in the US. There certainly has been in regards to same-sex marriage. Not a 100% shift, obviously. Still a lot of problems out there, particularly for LGBT high school students.

But I'm optimistic in regards to the long run. I'm not sure how well things would have gone for me, say, 15 years ago.

Sovereign Court Contributor

KSF wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
KSF wrote:


Also, I've been expecting incredulous responses from some people, but haven't gotten any yet (out of the 40 or 50 people to whom I'm out). What exactly is an "average" person these days?
The "average" person is considerably more accepting now than in 1973 or whenever Life of Brian came out, but you're also [probably] not looking at a representative sample of humanity, or even of the United States. (Which is probably good from your perspective; I'm sure it makes you happier.) There are probably some people who are flat-out unreachable, but I live in hope the the "average" people who filmed the attack on Chrissy Lee Polis instead of intervening will realize that this is uncool....

I was unclear. I wasn't trying to posit my experience as average. Just that it's hard to say what constitutes an average person.

I don't know, though, some of those people I referred to are in their 20s, and I get the impression that there's a generational shift on LGBT issues going on, at least in the US. There certainly has been in regards to same-sex marriage. Not a 100% shift, obviously. Still a lot of problems out there, particularly for LGBT high school students.

But I'm optimistic in regards to the long run. I'm not sure how well things would have gone for me, say, 15 years ago.

I don't know if my sister could have come out as trans a decade and a half ago. In fact, that's probably why she was in the closet so long. I'm so happy things are going in what seems like a much more accepting direction for the future.

When I was in high school, homophobia was the norm and being any sort of Queer was deeply shameful (to the surrounding culture). None of my friends were out, even the ones I knew were gay. I got beat up (and was almost killed) because people thought I was gay. It was very confusing, because I wasn't.
Maybe racism is next on the not acceptable list. I hope so.


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I wonder if those who "disapprove" of LGBT characters in games also disapprove of materials (adventures, art, maps etc.) made by LGBT people? If they are aware of it, of course.
Since Paizo employ quite a few LGBT people that would include all their products. At least one major fantasy artist is transgender. I just wonder how far their distaste goes.


Jeff Erwin wrote:

I don't know if my sister could have come out as trans a decade and a half ago. In fact, that's probably why she was in the closet so long. I'm so happy things are going in what seems like a much more accepting direction for the future.

When I was in high school, homophobia was the norm and being any sort of Queer was deeply shameful (to the surrounding culture). None of my friends were out, even the ones I knew were gay. I got beat up (and was almost killed) because people thought I was gay. It was very confusing, because I wasn't.
Maybe racism is next on the not acceptable list. I hope so.

You probably know this, but it's still not great for a lot of trans people (or LGB people, for that matter). Most states don't have job protection for gender identity, so it's easy, and not uncommon, for people to be fired once they out themselves. And it's still physically unsafe for a lot of people. (A transwoman named Islan Nettles was beaten to death in Harlem a few days ago.)

These are some of the many reason so many trans people go stealth after they transition, which in turn may contribute to the impression that 3.5 Loyalist has or was referring to (the trans people are something for capital cities and clubs down the road thing).

But yeah, things have changed somewhat, and continue to do so.

Best wishes to your sister for her health and well-being.

Sovereign Court Contributor

KSF wrote:
Jeff Erwin wrote:

I don't know if my sister could have come out as trans a decade and a half ago. In fact, that's probably why she was in the closet so long. I'm so happy things are going in what seems like a much more accepting direction for the future.

When I was in high school, homophobia was the norm and being any sort of Queer was deeply shameful (to the surrounding culture). None of my friends were out, even the ones I knew were gay. I got beat up (and was almost killed) because people thought I was gay. It was very confusing, because I wasn't.
Maybe racism is next on the not acceptable list. I hope so.

You probably know this, but it's still not great for a lot of trans people (or LGB people, for that matter). Most states don't have job protection for gender identity, so it's easy, and not uncommon, for people to be fired once they out themselves. And it's still physically unsafe for a lot of people. (A transwoman named Islan Nettles was beaten to death in Harlem a few days ago.)

These are some of the many reason so many trans people go stealth after they transition, which in turn may contribute to the impression that 3.5 Loyalist has or was referring to (the trans people are something for capital cities and clubs down the road thing).

But yeah, things have changed somewhat, and continue to do so.

Best wishes to your sister for her health and well-being.

Yeah, I know. When my sister came out to me the first thought I had was worry for her safety.

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