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Grand Lodge

KSF wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
So if anyone wants a great book that really seems to get what the family of a transgender person goes through, I highly recommend "Luna" by Julie Ann Peters. It actually opened my eyes a little on some of the things I put my own little sister through.
Thanks. Anyone else have any other recommendations, apart from the usual (Jennifer Finney Boylan, etc.)?

It just so happens that I just finished a research project on this very subject.

I would recommend The Collection (Topside Press, 2012) and Nevada (Imogen Binnie, 2013). I'm actually not a fan of Luna - and I really wanted to like it. I would recommend Being Emily (Rachel Gold, 2012) before Luna by a long shot. As far as fantasy goes, one of my favorite fantasy novels with a trans protagonist is The Bone Palace (Amanda Downum, 2010).


For some excellent books on the trans experience, particularly FtM, I recommend Leslie Feinberg. Transgender Warrior


Kittyburger wrote:
I would recommend The Collection (Topside Press, 2012) and Nevada (Imogen Binnie, 2013). I'm actually not a fan of Luna - and I really wanted to like it. I would recommend Being Emily (Rachel Gold, 2012) before Luna by a long shot. As far as fantasy goes, one of my favorite fantasy novels with a trans protagonist is The Bone Palace (Amanda Downum, 2010).

Thanks.


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TanithT wrote:
For some excellent books on the trans experience, particularly FtM, I recommend Leslie Feinberg. [url]http://www.transgenderwarrior.org/books.html[/url]

Been meaning to check his stuff out. I've read "The Testosterone Files," by Max Wolf Valerio, but not too much else regarding the ftm experience.

That and some of the pieces in "Gender Outlaws."

Project Manager

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Removed some continuation of the discussion I asked to be moved to the Homosexuality in Golarion thread, and some back and forth about whether people's posts were appropriate here. If someone's posting things you feel are inappropriate, flag it and move on.


Now, to be honest, I'm not too well read on the subject of transgender studies. What would be a good read to get me started?


Tirisfal wrote:
Now, to be honest, I'm not too well read on the subject of transgender studies. What would be a good read to get me started?

What sort of thing are you looking for? Memoir? Scientific studies? History? Fiction?

Grand Lodge

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Tirisfal wrote:
Now, to be honest, I'm not too well read on the subject of transgender studies. What would be a good read to get me started?

Gender Outlaws: The Next Generation (K. Bornstein & S. Bear Bergman, 2012) is a good popular-level book of essays on transgender studies. For a more academic view of the subject, see Transgender Studies Reader (S. Stryker & S. Whittle, 2006).


Some introductory sociology books, can have very useful chapters or partial chapters on this (Macionis and Plummer, that sort of thing). Anthrop too, with case studies on Melanesia and the like.


KSF wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
Now, to be honest, I'm not too well read on the subject of transgender studies. What would be a good read to get me started?
What sort of thing are you looking for? Memoir? Scientific studies? History? Fiction?

I'm really not sure where to start, but I would venture towards non-fiction first.


Tirisfal wrote:
Now, to be honest, I'm not too well read on the subject of transgender studies. What would be a good read to get me started?

This is a pretty good one. Sex Changes: The Politics of Transgenderism

Silver Crusade

I'm not exactly expecting this film to be educational, but was Breakfast on Pluto good? The cast list combined with the themes caught my attention.


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Kittyburger wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
Now, to be honest, I'm not too well read on the subject of transgender studies. What would be a good read to get me started?
Gender Outlaws: The Next Generation (K. Bornstein & S. Bear Bergman, 2012) is a good popular-level book of essays on transgender studies. For a more academic view of the subject, see Transgender Studies Reader (S. Stryker & S. Whittle, 2006).

Yeah, Gender Outlaws is great. (The title refers to Kate Bornstein's earlier Gender Outlaw, which was a significant book that was published back in 1994.) One thing it offers is a sense of the diversity of experiences contained under the concept of transgender. Also has a great cover.

And Susan Stryker also has another book, Transgender History, which I've only read a little of.

She's Not the Man I Married by Helen Boyd offers an interesting discussion from the perspective of the spouse of a transwoman (who stayed married to her wife).

Whipping Girl by Julia Serano is an insightful collection of trans-feminist essays. Lots of good food for thought, particularly in regards to how society values (or devalues) femininity, and how that intersects with the transgender experience.

I haven't read a lot about the female-to-male experience (apart from reading posts by transmen online), but I did find Max Wolf Valerio's "The Testosterone Files," which is his transition memoir, to be useful.

And Jennifer Finney Boylan's She's Not There is a solid transition memoir from the male-to-female side of things.


So I've got:

Gender Outlaws: The Next Generation
Transgender Studies Reader
Sex Changes: The Politics of Transgenderism
The Testosterone Files

Thanks so much!


KSF, if you're still looking for things about the FTM experience, and you've seen "Gender Outlaws" (I haven't got around to it, yet), what did you think of S. Bear Bergman's contribution? If you like his style but haven't seen more of it, "The Nearest Exit May Be Behind You" might be of interest, which collects essays about, as I remember, among other things, moving to a gay male from a butch lesbian identity. I found parts of it sweet, others amusing, and still others made me flinch in sympathy; I rather liked it.

Addendum: I turn around from my composition, and all of a sudden things get most interesting from a bibliophibian perspective! Starts moving things up on the reading list...

Liberty's Edge

Random question: is there some imbalance in the ratio of transmen to transwomen, or are transwomen simply more visible for whatever reason? I've never met a transman before, or even seen any of them writing books or blogs or even tumblr posts. (I haven't really gone looking for 'em either, to be honest.)


Qunnessaa wrote:
Addendum: I turn around from my composition, and all of a sudden things get most interesting from a bibliophibian perspective! Starts moving things up on the reading list...

That happened to me a few months ago when I emailed my old women's studies teacher for a reading list :)

Silver Crusade

Alice Margatroid wrote:
Random question: is there some imbalance in the ratio of transmen to transwomen, or are transwomen simply more visible for whatever reason? I've never met a transman before, or even seen any of them writing books or blogs or even tumblr posts. (I haven't really gone looking for 'em either, to be honest.)

I have no clue about actual numbers, but I sometimes get the feeling transmen have an easier time flying under the radar because mainstream media isn't exactly "watching out for them". On the flip side, they seem to get fetishized a lot less than transwomen too. (thankfully mainstream TV is finally moving past those two extremes and presenting actual people)

I honestly don't know if that's what's really going on though. And putting it like that does feel like it's selling short what transmen have to go through.


Qunnessaa wrote:

KSF, if you're still looking for things about the FTM experience, and you've seen "Gender Outlaws" (I haven't got around to it, yet), what did you think of S. Bear Bergman's contribution? If you like his style but haven't seen more of it, "The Nearest Exit May Be Behind You" might be of interest, which collects essays about, as I remember, among other things, moving to a gay male from a butch lesbian identity. I found parts of it sweet, others amusing, and still others made me flinch in sympathy; I rather liked it.

Addendum: I turn around from my composition, and all of a sudden things get most interesting from a bibliophibian perspective! Starts moving things up on the reading list...

I remember thinking his stuff was okay. I'll check him out as well. I'm very curious these days about the correspondences and differences between the mtf and ftm experiences. And yeah, the way gender identity can interact with sexual identity across transition can be interesting as well.


Alice Margatroid wrote:
Random question: is there some imbalance in the ratio of transmen to transwomen, or are transwomen simply more visible for whatever reason? I've never met a transman before, or even seen any of them writing books or blogs or even tumblr posts. (I haven't really gone looking for 'em either, to be honest.)

I have gone looking for other transmasculine peeps, and you're right, the numbers do seem to be imbalanced. Every trans support group I've been to is vastly larger on the MtF contingent than FtM.

Transmen can publicly pass a hell of a lot more easily, most of the time without any surgery at all, just hormones. The tradeoff is that bottom surgery options still pretty much suck for transguys, which is one of the many reasons I'm not transitioning. But I don't actually think that's the reason that there seem to be more MtF folks extant.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

And I have the opposite experience where I live Tanith. I've met a handful of transmen, but I'm the only transwoman I know. :(


Alice Margatroid wrote:
Random question: is there some imbalance in the ratio of transmen to transwomen, or are transwomen simply more visible for whatever reason? I've never met a transman before, or even seen any of them writing books or blogs or even tumblr posts. (I haven't really gone looking for 'em either, to be honest.)

Well, let me preface this by saying I don't want to speak for transmen, so if any are around, please correct me.

I'm not sure if the numbers are different so much as it's a matter of the experiences being different from a social perspective. Or rather, from the social perspectives of both transpeople and the larger non-trans culture.

I get the impression that transmen are more likely to find an initial home (prior to transition or realizing they're trans) within the lesbian community. (This is the perspective that the Max Wolf Valerio book I mentioned was written from.)

The somewhat greater flexibility women are accorded in their choice of clothing may also come into play.

I've seen the occasional post by transwomen who come from the gay community, but it seems that we're more likely to lead heterosexual lifestyles prior to transition. Why that is, I don't know. Maybe some difference between lesbian and gay culture, particularly in regards to gender variance? No idea.

With regards to clothing, the lower flexibility in terms of the male wardrobe pre-transition probably leads to a valuation of culturally designated more feminine clothes (e.g. skirts instead of jeans), which may be why some transwomen go through a crossdressing period while in the closet or prior to transition.

On top of that, within the larger culture, people seem to be more interested in, and interested in mocking, transwomen than transmen. Julia Serano has some theories about this in Whipping Girl (and that subject is what the title refers to, if I remember correctly). Someone else could probably give a better summary of them than I could.

I do think all of this seems to be changing, and will continue to change, as people become more aware of transgenderism, particularly parents, which may lead to less stigmatization, less time in the closet, and earlier transition, for both ftm and mtf trans people.

Edit to add: Sorry if that was incoherent. Got to go get some sleep. Good night all, and thank you for a good discussion.

Contributor

TanithT wrote:
Alice Margatroid wrote:
Random question: is there some imbalance in the ratio of transmen to transwomen, or are transwomen simply more visible for whatever reason? I've never met a transman before, or even seen any of them writing books or blogs or even tumblr posts. (I haven't really gone looking for 'em either, to be honest.)

I have gone looking for other transmasculine peeps, and you're right, the numbers do seem to be imbalanced. Every trans support group I've been to is vastly larger on the MtF contingent than FtM.

Transmen can publicly pass a hell of a lot more easily, most of the time without any surgery at all, just hormones. The tradeoff is that bottom surgery options still pretty much suck for transguys, which is one of the many reasons I'm not transitioning. But I don't actually think that's the reason that there seem to be more MtF folks extant.

Several possibilities in my opinion:

1) Transmen find it easier to pass and thus aren't noticed as readily as transwomen, leading to an apparent disparity in observed numbers.

2) Cultural pressures may lead to fewer transmen undergoing transition than transwomen (the reception of transmen in the lesbian community has been brutal at times, so those sexually interested in females may stay living as females, removing a chunk of the potentially transitioning pool).

3) The underlying physical causes (genetic/epigenetic/etc) may in fact occur more frequently in genetic males versus genetic females, though there isn't even remotely enough evidence here to call it one way or the other. Some studies have found a larger proportion of non-hetero males compared to non-hetero females, and if there are similar underlying causes there (just happening at a different phase of fetal development and altering different regions of the brain as a result), it might indeed suggest that the root cause will affect genetic males more so than genetic females. But way way too early to call this. More data needed.


TanithT wrote:
Transmen can publicly pass a hell of a lot more easily, most of the time without any surgery at all, just hormones. The tradeoff is that bottom surgery options still pretty much suck for transguys, which is one of the many reasons I'm not transitioning. But I don't actually think that's the reason that there seem to be more MtF folks extant.

That's very true. I'm envious about how effective testosterone can be for them (the condition of my voice or my facial hair isn't going to change from hormones alone), but it truly sucks that the current state of female to male bottom surgery lags so far behind male to female bottom surgery (assuming one can afford it). And anecdotally, I get the impression it can be difficult to find a surgeon that will perform a good top surgery (breast removal) on transmen, who are otherwise stuck binding themselves.

Grand Lodge

KSF wrote:
TanithT wrote:
Transmen can publicly pass a hell of a lot more easily, most of the time without any surgery at all, just hormones. The tradeoff is that bottom surgery options still pretty much suck for transguys, which is one of the many reasons I'm not transitioning. But I don't actually think that's the reason that there seem to be more MtF folks extant.
That's very true. I'm envious about how effective testosterone can be for them (the condition of my voice or my facial hair isn't going to change from hormones alone), but it truly sucks that the current state of female to male bottom surgery lags so far behind male to female bottom surgery (assuming one can afford it). And anecdotally, I get the impression it can be difficult to find a surgeon that will perform a good top surgery (breast removal) on transmen, who are otherwise stuck binding themselves.

I've done a little research because my partner is transmasculine genderqueer and thinking about whether or not they will transition. Top surgery for trans guys is actually the second most available sex-confirming surgery, after top surgery for trans women (after all, that's just breast augmentation, which is done on an outpatient basis in many, many places), in terms of number of practitioners, and the most available in terms of being readily approved by doctors (we will leave aside the massive unfairness of the whole gatekeeper apparatus).


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I read an article about a teenage trans-couple that I find pertinent to the conversation. I do find transmen can go unnoticed more easily. The transmale of the couple does appear very much like a guy, save his hips. If I met him, I'd probably not even notice.


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Speaking of trans in gaming, there was an awesome trans character in the scion game put out by white wolf. A scion of the atzlanti, he (and then she) received a gift during their visitation of a full human suit of skin of a beautiful girl, which is really the only thing he uses regularly(iirc). One it was discovered that it needed a small amount of human blood regularly...well, there are acceptable sacrifices.

Silver Crusade

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Temporary aside:

I came home from work last night and my boyfriend had laid out a candlelight dinner. I was planning on updating my play-by-posts and such, but it was apparent it wasn't going to be a Paizo kind of night.

That is all.


Celestial Healer wrote:

Temporary aside:

I came home from work last night and my boyfriend had laid out a candlelight dinner. I was planning on updating my play-by-posts and such, but it was apparent it wasn't going to be a Paizo kind of night.

That is all.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!


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Celestial Healer wrote:

Temporary aside:

I came home from work last night and my boyfriend had laid out a candlelight dinner. I was planning on updating my play-by-posts and such, but it was apparent it wasn't going to be a Paizo kind of night.

That is all.

You, uh, didn't hear anyone whistling La Marseillaise again, didya?

[/Creeper Comrade Anklebiter]

Grand Lodge

Detect Magic wrote:
I read an article about a teenage trans-couple that I find pertinent to the conversation. I do find transmen can go unnoticed more easily. The transmale of the couple does appear very much like a guy, save his hips. If I met him, I'd probably not even notice.

Even then, that can be disguised with judicious use of padding around the waist and careful arrangement of your shirt. I doubt his hips would even be noticeable if he wasn't wearing a swimsuit in the relevant photo.


Kittyburger wrote:
KSF wrote:
TanithT wrote:
Transmen can publicly pass a hell of a lot more easily, most of the time without any surgery at all, just hormones. The tradeoff is that bottom surgery options still pretty much suck for transguys, which is one of the many reasons I'm not transitioning. But I don't actually think that's the reason that there seem to be more MtF folks extant.
That's very true. I'm envious about how effective testosterone can be for them (the condition of my voice or my facial hair isn't going to change from hormones alone), but it truly sucks that the current state of female to male bottom surgery lags so far behind male to female bottom surgery (assuming one can afford it). And anecdotally, I get the impression it can be difficult to find a surgeon that will perform a good top surgery (breast removal) on transmen, who are otherwise stuck binding themselves.
I've done a little research because my partner is transmasculine genderqueer and thinking about whether or not they will transition. Top surgery for trans guys is actually the second most available sex-confirming surgery, after top surgery for trans women (after all, that's just breast augmentation, which is done on an outpatient basis in many, many places), in terms of number of practitioners, and the most available in terms of being readily approved by doctors (we will leave aside the massive unfairness of the whole gatekeeper apparatus).

Good to hear. Thank you for the correction.

Sovereign Court

Cold hard facts about Transitioning. First off the article that goes here. She is very passable. Trust me I have a female cousin who is a model that looks more male than she does.

If a male to female starts to transition before puberty usually by 12 - 13 and can stop the evil "male hormones" T as we will call them they can be as passable as any GG (Genetic Girl)Their voice does not lower, the hair on the body does not produce especially on the face, and the bones do not reshape... Yes they do reshape getting a heavier brow, thickening of the the nose, thinner lips, wider jaw, etc. Their hands do not get as masculine etc. So it makes since if someone is young to start early. I only wish I would have said something at the age of 11 instead of wating 30 more years. As it is I am passable but I have my moments and FFS (Facial Feminization Surgery would help me a ton).

Female to male do have it easier with hormones. Since their bodies have never had the "Damage" done by the horrible T hormone. It will do to a female what it does to a teen male and quickly. But as noted the bottom surgery for F2M is way behind and far more expensive.

As for the other hormone we will cal E what it can and cannot do is as follows. it does not remove facial hair. That has to be done with electrolysis. Laser helps bit laser is not perm while electrolysis is after many sessions which hurts. Laser is cake walk. It will thin the hair. it will soften the skin making it more transparent like a females, it will cause breast growth, it will redistribute fat and it can make you look more feminine but surgery is usually the answer to fix more things caused by T. You will lose muscle mass you will have weight gain and your emotions run from hot to cold in the flick of a switch. T does cause balding and anger E does not fix hair loss but can slow it. Usually with E a M2F can expect breasts 1 size smaller than a sister or a parent. In my case I am as big if not bigger which is not common and many opt for breast augmentation.


IceniQueen wrote:
Female to male do have it easier with hormones. Since their bodies have never had the "Damage" done by the horrible T hormone.

Hey, what you're calling damage I'd consider a blessing. Sadly it's not something I can have right now, or possibly ever.

Wanna just swap bodies? That would be awesome if the technology got to that point. ;)

Contributor

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TanithT wrote:
IceniQueen wrote:
Female to male do have it easier with hormones. Since their bodies have never had the "Damage" done by the horrible T hormone.

Hey, what you're calling damage I'd consider a blessing. Sadly it's not something I can have right now, or possibly ever.

Wanna just swap bodies? That would be awesome if the technology got to that point. ;)

I already have dibs on swapping bodies with you 'hon. :)

Paizo Employee Editor

KSF wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
Now, to be honest, I'm not too well read on the subject of transgender studies. What would be a good read to get me started?
What sort of thing are you looking for? Memoir? Scientific studies? History? Fiction?

I'd love fiction recs, please!


IceniQueen wrote:
Usually with E a M2F can expect breasts 1 size smaller than a sister or a parent.

Lately, I've been reading people say that this is not actually the case. Or it's less often the case than is usually stated.

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