The way it is written a magus can spend days to get additional spells and copy them into a spellbook using knowledge pool is this intentional? He prepares the spell using knowledge pool than writes it into his spellbook.No more needing to buy scrolls with your days off or bother deciphering them. this way you do not fail a spellcraft check.
Good catch! This would make it extremely easy for a magus to learn new spells -- no need for scrolls or borrowed spellbooks.
I'm not sure myself. It's a neat idea, but it does seem odd that magi would then be better at learning new spells than any other arcane class in the game. Peculiar for a class without full casting.
That's a big problem.
It essentially makes their whole spell list known, which makes them a Divine Caster.
Also effects wealth/level stuff as they'll never have to buy scrolls for learning reasons, which costs money at high levels.
It essentially makes the ability itself worthless, and you'd be better off just saying: At this level a Magus can put all his class spells into his spellbook.
I've already thought of a balancing approach. Require the magus to take scribe scroll, scribe the new spell to a scroll, then copy the scroll. All expenses must still be paid and checks must still be made. Easy.
I don´t really see a problem here, the magus spells list is rather short already, and this way if the spellbook is lost/destroyed, the magus in some dirty dungeon with nothing but a rusty dagger - the adventure continues. He can regain his spells, and fight with his rusty dagger.
On the other hand it could end up as:
Level up:
Magus Player: lets wait some days for me to think of all the new magus spells it could cast now. I´ll need my spellbook and a lot of ink, after all I need to put it down on the page, it´s to complicatet to remember.
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As I was writing this .. it doesn´t really sound that bad, the magus player still has the choice not to put a spell into his spellbook to save gold.
I say keep it, maybe add a spellcraft to scribing a spell gained this way. After all they may be able to write wizard spells this way at level 19, but they can´t prepare them.
I also vote problem. A fix that allows it to do what I think is intended would be to let them spend points to prepare a spell not currently in their spellbook, but not have that spell actually be written in the spell book. It lets them grab a spell here or there to cast for the day, at the cost of other Arcane Pool abilities, but it doesn't give them extra free spells.
If the magus then wants to write that prepared spell into his spellbook, he has to pay the cost to write a scroll and then pay to copy that scroll into his spellbook (since there is no provision that I aware of for any caster to write a spell directly into a spellbook that is not already written down somewhere).
(since there is no provision that I aware of for any caster to write a spell directly into a spellbook that is not already written down somewhere).
Under replacing a spellbook, it indicates that you can write into a spellbook any spell that you currently have prepared for the same cost as copying it from a spellbook/scroll.
(since there is no provision that I aware of for any caster to write a spell directly into a spellbook that is not already written down somewhere).Under replacing a spellbook, it indicates that you can write into a spellbook any spell that you currently have prepared for the same cost as copying it from a spellbook/scroll.
I stand corrected.
Director of Game Design
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To be clear,
The issue I am seeing here is the ability to prepare a spell using this class feature and then copy it into a spellbook. The intent was to allow you to simply prepare and cast a spell by using up some of your arcane pool.
Just thought I would put that out there. Please continue the discussion.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Problem, I think. As was already mentioned, the ability might just read "You now have all spells." It's a bit too much for my tastes.
Another alternative is to restrict the spell from being scribed or using in item creation until it's learned naturally.
The magus has a very limitet spell list compaired to other casters, and if everything goes wrong the magus can still copy spells from any other spellbook.
The party wizard might have already learned all those 3rd level spells once the magus has learned the cast them it´s not really that big a deal.
Of course if it causes trouble in your games when your magus player dissapers for a week into a dark cave and comes back with some new spells..
I personally don´t see a problem here, but before all those DMs have to houserule it ....
On the other hand, find some way to describe why your magus can prepare a haste spell, but is unalbe to scribe it for his wizard buddy.
Another alternative is to restrict the spell from being scribed or using in item creation until it's learned naturally.
Define learned:
-Prepared it once using another spellbook;
-got hit by a dozen of them this month,
-have seen it cast,
-once owned a scroll.
Or I scribed it into my spellbook once.
Its a good idead, but requires a good definition of learned.
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I'm also thinking this is a problem rather than a feature. Another angle to look at is for new spells added to the Magus list, either by Paizo, or in home campaigns. If you want to keep the new spells hard to find (recovered from an ancient ruin, etc.) It becomes pretty hard to do so if your Magus can not only use the spell via his arcana, but also scribe it into his spellbook and use it going forward.
Seems strange to me that there is no check associated with this to see if the Magus even knows of the spell's existence. Are all spells completely common knowledge to all practitioners? I find that hard to believe.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Hmm. Question for the crowd. Is this a problem or a feature?
I'd rather have something like this than the Magus be a scroll collector. Because I see the Magus more like War Wizard/Beguiler in that they should know most of their spells without having the trouble a Wizard has.
But whichever way you do it, make it clear which way you did it so it doesn't cause debates on the forums. ;-)
Surprised to hear that so many DMs like to hide spells in drafty old ruins.
So the be an ass, let me ask which of these neat spells you would hide:
Burning Hands
Magic Missile
Chill Touch
Magic Weapon
Color Spray
Mount
Enlarge Person
Obscuring Mist
Expeditious Retreat
Reduce Person
Feather Fall
Shield
Flare Burst*
Shocking Grasp
Floating Disk
Silent Image
Grease
Stone Fist*
Hydraulic Push*
True Strike
Jump
Unseen Servant
But yeah I can see how it could be troublesome if you don´t want your magus players to have access to the nasty new magus spells the BBEG has developed.
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Surprised to hear that so many DMs like to hide spells in drafty old ruins.
So the be an ass, let me ask which of these neat spells you would hide:
But yeah I can see how it could be troublesome if you don´t want your magus players to have access to the nasty new magus spells the BBEG has developed.
It's the later issue that I was referring to. Not the spells on the default Magus list, but new ones added afterwards - either as BBEG spells or the super cool Thassilonian Magus Super Ultimate Touch Spell of Doom you want to seed as treasure to reward your magus player.
As a Magus player, I'd love to be able to just scribe whatever spells I wanted into my spellbook through this ability, but I couldn't take that in good conscious. Definitely overpowered in my opinion. Though it would be a great feature if you just restricted it by only allowing them to scribe spells that they have already learned and scribed into their spellbooks before, thus allowing easy replacement of old spellbooks.
To be clear,
The issue I am seeing here is the ability to prepare a spell using this class feature and then copy it into a spellbook.
Hi, Jason,
I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed. I like the magus as a prepared caster and I don't think the magus needs a rules loophole that allows him to become a spontaneous caster that can change his spell list on a daily basis to any set of spells on the Magus Spell List.
To be clear,
The intent was to allow you to simply prepare and cast a spell by using up some of your arcane pool.
I like the intent, but I don't think it is a good idea to let the Magus be able to scribe these scrolls either into his spellbook or onto a scroll. If I were playing a Magus, I'd do everything I could to make sure the Magus always had all the spells of any level he could cast written in his spellbook.
The intent is good, though.
Vote: Possible Problem
This comes from a guy playing a Magus who took Scribe Scroll as his first level feat over other "options". Mainly it bypasses the need to do research at 1000 gp per level. This isn't about hidding spells per say, because Bards Inquisters and just about every other half caster already know their spells.
No scribing, no spell trigger/completion... Shot make it no crafting and save some aggravation.
I guess I'm still holding out hope for a bigger Magus spell list then the one presented. Something more wizardy. Which would make this kind of "you must find/research" a worthwhile balance/flavor point.
The magus has a very limitet spell list compaired to other casters, and if everything goes wrong the magus can still copy spells from any other spellbook.
The party wizard might have already learned all those 3rd level spells once the magus has learned the cast them it´s not really that big a deal.
Of course if it causes trouble in your games when your magus player dissapers for a week into a dark cave and comes back with some new spells..
I personally don´t see a problem here, but before all those DMs have to houserule it ....
On the other hand, find some way to describe why your magus can prepare a haste spell, but is unalbe to scribe it for his wizard buddy.
Not quite a good argument at the moment, sorry. The current spell list is not his full list, it's just a playtest list, this has been stated before.
Personally, I would not allow it. Mainly out of fairness to the Wizards. A class who is a partial caster, who spends only half as much time as the Wizard, get's to cast in full plate eventually with no spell failure, *AND* can spend 2-3 weeks and build up a spellbook with every spell on his list?
This doesn't even mention the fact the magus could buy empty spellbooks, fill them up as he adventures, and then sell full spell books to wizards at the end and make much more than it cost (no buying spell scrolls) wizards to do the same? Seems very unbalanced from an RP/world design stand point, if not mechanically.
Thank you for pointing out that the damn thing is an easy and unlimited money generator...
Yep, and it's a generator that scales with level, the higher you get the higher your spells get. A wizard won't care that it's a 3rd level Magus spell, because he can still learn it as a 6th level wizard spell, for example.
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It doesn't seem right for a Magus to be a source of loads of known spells.
I suggest stipulating that spells obtained temporarily through this feature
1. Cannot be written into a spellbook,
2. Cannot be written into a scroll (or any other spell trigger or spell completion item, see next post). (You might rule that it can't be used for item crafting prerequisites in general -- that's a wizard's specialty, and the magus shouldn't be better than the wizard at it).
Edit: Alternately, if you like the idea that Magi can quickly know every spell on their list, either
1. Make them 'know' all the spells on their list but still prepare each day, like a druid or cleric, instead of using a spellbook, and make them unable to write spellbooks (this is probably the simpler of the two), or
2. Stipulate that other classes cannot use/copy from Magus spellbooks.
Either of these still leaves scrolls as a potential problem, and disallowing other classes from using Magus scrolls introduces the same problem as the Eberron Artificer had -- Now the DM has a third type of scroll to track in treasure. I'm not sure what to suggest there.
2. Cannot be written into a scroll. (You might rule that it can't be used for item crafting prerequisites in general -- that's a wizard's specialty, and the magus shouldn't be better than the wizard at it).
If you block scrolls you need to block Wands and other spell completion/trigger items as well. Same reason you can't avoid the prerequs for those normally. Otherwise jerk player crafts a Wand or other Spell "in-a-can" item so he can then cast it from there into a scroll, which he can then scribe.
Knowledge Pool -> Wand -> Scroll -> Spellbook.
Can you just add a tag that says these are spells known "for the purposes of Spell Combat only"?
To be clear,
The issue I am seeing here is the ability to prepare a spell using this class feature and then copy it into a spellbook. The intent was to allow you to simply prepare and cast a spell by using up some of your arcane pool.
Just thought I would put that out there. Please continue the discussion.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
For me, it would be a problem, but I am not a fan of the power in general (my only gripe with the class, mind you. The revised version is pretty awesome otherwise)
Being able to spontaneously manifest new spells and then transpose them to a spellbook (which then might be transposed to a wizard's spellbook, or an alchemists spell book, if they share the same spells) is REALLY powerful. How long does it take for the magus to manifest enough spells that he need not ever look for a regular copy of his classes spells in a book or a dungeon?
The ability to manifest spells beyond that already in your spellbook is I think the problem also on a game play level. Big part of the feel of a wizard style caster is looking for new spells. If I can just spend abstract points from a pool to do this (even if its more costly) where is my motivation to pour over tomes, and covet that enemy wizard's hidden trove of lore?
Can you just add a tag that says these are spells known "for the purposes of Spell Combat only"?
I wouldn't want to see it limited to Spell Combat only; then they can't take utility spells they don't know.
(Well, I guess they could, but that would be kind of dumb, as it would lead to silly actions becoming required -- "I attack the rock, and cast wall of stone to make a bridge over the gap" or "I attack the tree and cast phantom steed!")
(And it would still at least possibly have the basic problem -- "I attack the melon while I cast the spell to scribe the scroll!")
Interesting... I had not considered this option.
Hmm. Question for the crowd. Is this a problem or a feature?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
In my opinion it's a problem. The magus is a studied caster from all the fluff I've read, and suddenly he's spontaneously learning and casting spells that he hasn't had a chance to study. The worse part is that it isn't even expensive for him to do this -- he simply spends one point out of his pool and suddenly he's got a new spell of any level he can cast to add to his spell book. FInally the fact that the spell doesn't even have to go into his spellbook (or come from some other source) is even worse -- he becomes a wizard with his spellbook in his own head with no feat cost, no gold cost, and little ability cost. To top it off he can change his spellbook everyday at this point without actually having a spellbook present.
If a wizard without a spellbook is in trouble then the magus -- a wizard wannabe shouldn't be able to just ignore the fact that his own spell book got toasted by expending a few points when he wants to have something to memorize the next day -- and especially shouldn't be able to memorize anything he wants to off of his class list at that point.
The fact that currently the wizard (or any other full arcane caster) has nothing like this doesn't help either since you would think they would be better at pulling spells out of thin air than someone that isn't such a master of spellcasting.
If asked how I would change it, I would do the following:
1. Make the pool cost higher: Instead of spending a point per spell I would have it be limited to one spell with a cost equal to the spell level.
2. Require a copy of the spell to be at hand. It wouldn't have to be in his spell book, (and doesn't have to be destroyed if on a scroll) but requiring it to be present limits the Magus from going "I've never even seen this spell cast before but now I suddenly know it well enough to cast it spontaneously all day before copying it to my spell book."
Problem.
When I read the final version of the Magus, Knowledge Pool was the only part I disagreed with. Not just because of this loophole. I disagree with the idea that, of all spellcasters, it's the Magus is the one with a special ability to pull any spell out of his bag. That really sounds much more like a Loremaster ability than a Gish ability.
Interesting... I had not considered this option.
Hmm. Question for the crowd. Is this a problem or a feature?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingIn my opinion it's a problem. The magus is a studied caster from all the fluff I've read, and suddenly he's spontaneously learning and casting spells that he hasn't had a chance to study. The worse part is that it isn't even expensive for him to do this -- he simply spends one point out of his pool and suddenly he's got a new spell of any level he can cast to add to his spell book.
The fact that currently the wizard (or any other full arcane caster) has nothing like this doesn't help either since you would think they would be better at pulling spells out of thin air than someone that isn't such a master of spellcasting.
If asked how I would change it, I would do the following:
1. Make the pool cost higher: Instead of spending a point per spell I would have it be limited to one spell with a cost equal to the spell level.
2. Require a copy of the spell to be at hand. It wouldn't have to be in his spell book, (and doesn't have to be destroyed if on a scroll) but requiring it to be present limits the Magus from going "I've never even seen this spell cast before but now I suddenly know it well enough to cast it spontaneously all day before copying it to my spell book."The primary time I see this ability being used is during down time to simply load up a spell book at little to no cost for scrolls or finding someone else with a copy of the spell to look at.
yeah, I think that would be the way to go, sort of like the item version of arcane bond. The wizard only gets to do it once per day though. Perhaps that Magus has a need to be a little more versatile with what spells he has, but as a wizard in the same party I might feel a little gypped.
Make it an arcana or feat to be able to scribe from knowledge pool spells. Now go create a PrC allowing a wizard to use arcane pool knowledge abilities. Come up with some explanation about how most wizards are just rote memorization but this PrC is some kind of spellcrafter.
The ability to prepare spells not in his normal repertoire is a cool idea. However the ability to pull complex arcane formulas out of thin air rubs me the wrong way. As written the ability to scribe the spell compounds the problem.
If the ability allowed him to prepare an arcane spell he "encountered" the next time he prepared spells by expending arcane points, it would make more sense to me. He could mimic what he saw and learn the spell that way. I would also have no problem allowing him to scribe it to retain the spell for future use. This would need to be limited to the magus spell list of course.
It could read:
Whenever a magus successfully makes a spellcraft check to identify a spell being cast, he can spend an arcane point to treat that spell as if it were in his spellbook the next time he prepares spells. Spells prepared this way must be on the magus spell list and expended before the next time he prepares spells or they will be lost.
It's a little clunky but you get the point.
The ability to prepare spells not in his normal repertoire is a cool idea. However the ability to pull complex arcane formulas out of thin air rubs me the wrong way.
While I do kind of like what your suggested as a whole, in thinking about I'd point out a bit of alternate flavor. It's not that he pulls complex arcane formulas out of nothing exactly. A little extra flavor and he is dabbling and testing the spell before committing to a formal (see Research rules). This requires a little extra "magic" to keep it stable, which as a Magus he has at his disposal where a wizard has it all locked up already.
Why can a Magus do this and a Wizard can't? Why does a Witch get his spells differently? Difference in training and methodology. A Magus is constantly practicing both martial and magical forms, and actively trying to blend the two. The Magus already knows how to bind raw arcane energy to his weapons (Arcane Pool), why can't he use it to help bind a half-formed spell in his memory. It would be the half-formed nature that makes it impossible to use in item crafting.
I would like to see at least a Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana check attached to this ability. Maybe to Spell Pool (and Greater) as well.
For record's sake, I dislike it, and come on, I'm hardly the type to restrict players on buying scrolls. I just don't like the mechanic of "You wait a few days, congrats, every spell forever is now in your spellbook.
I think the easiest fix is to simply clarify "You may memorize or cast the spell as if it were in your spellbook."
TO put it another way - I have no problem with the ability, I only have issue with the class using it to create spellbooks. Quite frankly, the ability is awesome and fitting. Wizards are too formal, too tied up in rules and regulations in magic. Everything has a proper formula and components, ever spell has a proper recitation and hand movements. Sorcerers don't quite "get" magic the way others do, or perhaps they "get" it too much, and become equally rigid in their ways - if you can't feel the magic naturally, then what's the point?
A magus by class alone is someone doing something weird and bizarre. Being able to squint at magic and pick up a few things temporarily fits just fine. After all, they're already renegade from the naturalisticness of sorcerers and the rigidness of wizards. They grab a bit of martial power, a bit of wizardry, and smash it together to see what pops up (Note: usually a dead goblin).
Also, screw wizards, they have enough already. Other classes can have their own fun and unique toys, too. Wizards don't have to have everything related to arcane magic, you know.
The feature is good by itself and, while it won't break the class to let it write spells on its spellbook via Knowledge Pool, it feels weird because of the "well, give me a couple days and I learn all class spells anyway", turning the magus into a pseudo-warmage.
It feels wrong, but it's not overtly powerful anyway, not with the magus' limited list. Forbidding the feature from being used to craft items or write in spellbooks should be fine.
Put me in the 'broken' camp too.
Pulling the spell out of the spell pool to throw? Good.
Pulling the spell out to put in a spellbook? Bad.
I presume you agree with me that wizards are broken by default, then. A level 13 wizard can do that, probably more times per day than a magus at 19 too.
On the writing thing... It's not bad power-wise, just concept-wise and gameplay-wise. Having scrolls of every possible spell is feasible early through standard wealth by level, so the only thing this feature possibly has over just buying the scrolls is skipping price and shopping.
Mind you, I agree that it shouldn't be allowed for learning/crafting, but calling it 'broken' is a stretch of logic.
I just read again the "Adding new spells to the spellbook" section and... Knowledge Pool doesn't work all that well to "learn all spells".
Putting spells on the spellbook comes specifically from copying from a magical writing like a scroll or spellbook. Just being able to cast the spell doesn't let you put it on a spellbook.
A possible workaround is to get the spell, then scribe a scroll with it, but that means interpreting Knowledge Pooled spells as spells known, which they aren't because they are not in your spellbook.
So... at best you will still expend a lot of gold, time and a feat.
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I just read again the "Adding new spells to the spellbook" section and... Knowledge Pool doesn't work all that well to "learn all spells".
Putting spells on the spellbook comes specifically from copying from a magical writing like a scroll or spellbook. Just being able to cast the spell doesn't let you put it on a spellbook.
A possible workaround is to get the spell, then scribe a scroll with it, but that means interpreting Knowledge Pooled spells as spells known, which they aren't because they are not in your spellbook.
So... at best you will still expend a lot of gold, time and a feat.
This makes sense, as do some of the suggestions above.
I'd just like to say I would hate a neat ability like the Pool to go the way of the Inquisitor's Judgment(I liked the way it worked originally).
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Put me in the 'broken' camp too.
Pulling the spell out of the spell pool to throw? Good.
Pulling the spell out to put in a spellbook? Bad.
I presume you agree with me that wizards are broken by default, then. A level 13 wizard can do that, probably more times per day than a magus at 19 too.
You assumption would be flawed then.