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I just read again the "Adding new spells to the spellbook" section and... Knowledge Pool doesn't work all that well to "learn all spells".
Putting spells on the spellbook comes specifically from copying from a magical writing like a scroll or spellbook. Just being able to cast the spell doesn't let you put it on a spellbook.
Page 219, Replacing and Copying Spellbooks:
If he already has a particular
spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at
the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook.
The ability is a nice touch. I would keep it. Simply add "Spells prepared in this way cannot be scribed onto a scroll or into a spellbook, and cannot be used to craft magical items."
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Is this a problem or a feature?
It's a problem, but however you choose to fix it, please don't change the core pool mechanic too much. It is way too cool to go the way of the dodo just because of a loophole like this. Just throw a line in there indicating that spells gained from pool points can't be scribed - or something like that. Cover the corner case, don't blow up the whole building, is what I'm saying. But then, you are the professional game designer, so what do I know :-)
The ability is a nice touch. I would keep it. Simply add "Spells prepared in this way cannot be scribed onto a scroll or into a spellbook, and cannot be used to craft magical items."I just read again the "Adding new spells to the spellbook" section and... Knowledge Pool doesn't work all that well to "learn all spells".
Putting spells on the spellbook comes specifically from copying from a magical writing like a scroll or spellbook. Just being able to cast the spell doesn't let you put it on a spellbook.
Page 219, Replacing and Copying Spellbooks:
If he already has a particular
spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at
the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook.
I see no reason to limit it for crafting. Crafting just says you have to have it in your head, and expend it. Just limit it to not working for spell completion items (scrolls, wands, staffs). I have no issue with it for crafting armor or weapons or wondrous items.
I see no reason to limit it for crafting. Crafting just says you have to have it in your head, and expend it. Just limit it to not working for spell completion items (scrolls, wands, staffs). I have no issue with it for crafting armor or weapons or wondrous items.The ability is a nice touch. I would keep it. Simply add "Spells prepared in this way cannot be scribed onto a scroll or into a spellbook, and cannot be used to craft magical items."I just read again the "Adding new spells to the spellbook" section and... Knowledge Pool doesn't work all that well to "learn all spells".
Putting spells on the spellbook comes specifically from copying from a magical writing like a scroll or spellbook. Just being able to cast the spell doesn't let you put it on a spellbook.
Page 219, Replacing and Copying Spellbooks:
If he already has a particular
spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at
the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook.
I would.
Depending upon what you are trying to craf this can become just as much a problem as the spell book having the spells.
A magic item you make with the spell you cant cast 3xday or with 50 charges becomes pretty handy when you aren't supposed to be able to cast it in the first place.
just my 2 cents
Problem, I think. As was already mentioned, the ability might just read "You now have all spells." It's a bit too much for my tastes.
This.
I can see the ability changed to being unable to be used for craft and spellbook writing, but perfectly reasonable as an "on the fly" inspiration.
I would.Depending upon what you are trying to craf this can become just as much a problem as the spell book having the spells.
A magic item you make with the spell you cant cast 3xday or with 50 charges becomes pretty handy when you aren't supposed to be able to cast it in the first place.
just my 2 cents
50x per day would be a wand, and fall under spell completion items, which I said I wouldn't allow. 3xday would fall under normal wondrous items, which can already be made without the spell by increasing the DC by +5, so I don't see how this ability being used to avoid the +5 would really be broken.
50x per day would be a wand, and fall under spell completion items, which I said I wouldn't allow. 3xday would fall under normal wondrous items, which can already be made without the spell by increasing the DC by +5, so I don't see how this ability being used to avoid the +5 would really be broken.
I would.Depending upon what you are trying to craf this can become just as much a problem as the spell book having the spells.
A magic item you make with the spell you cant cast 3xday or with 50 charges becomes pretty handy when you aren't supposed to be able to cast it in the first place.
just my 2 cents
Ah I see, my mistake
I'm also on the problem side.
Moreover, pulling out any odd spell out of thin air - previously encountered or not - rubs me the wrong way too, as another poster already pointed out. I find the problem conceptual, and the endless spells known loophole confounds it.
As has already been suggested, the ability should require some previous or current exposure to the spell in question. Perhaps having identified it via Spellcraft while someone else cast it, or having a copy or item holding it. Both of these options have been pointed out. I'm not sure how that would be worded in a succinct yet exhaustive way though.
The other option could be to look at it from a "words of power" point of view. Although I'm not a fan of that system as it currently stands, giving the magus limited access to the building blocks of spells, to allow him to craft (in the spell sense) something unique and spontaneous, would be cool, and also in the spirit of the ability I believe.
You assumption would be flawed then.Put me in the 'broken' camp too.
Pulling the spell out of the spell pool to throw? Good.
Pulling the spell out to put in a spellbook? Bad.
I presume you agree with me that wizards are broken by default, then. A level 13 wizard can do that, probably more times per day than a magus at 19 too.
Well, then I'm waiting for you to explain why it is flawed to think that a magus isn't broken because it can, at level 19, do something a level 13 wizard does.
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You assumption would be flawed then.Well, then I'm waiting for you to explain why it is flawed to think that a magus isn't broken because it can, at level 19, do something a level 13 wizard does.
That's 6 whole levels later? Put me in the camp that says if the Magus got to Wild Shape 6 entire levels later than standard druids, I wouldn't even have a problem with THAT... 6 levels is a very long time.
That's 6 whole levels later? Put me in the camp that says if the Magus got to Wild Shape 6 entire levels later than standard druids, I wouldn't even have a problem with THAT... 6 levels is a very long time.You assumption would be flawed then.Well, then I'm waiting for you to explain why it is flawed to think that a magus isn't broken because it can, at level 19, do something a level 13 wizard does.
Apples and oranges.
Maybe if the Magus were a fighter/druid hybrid, this would be valid.
That was my entire point...
If Class X gets ability Y 6 levels later than Class Z, I don't see how that's concieveably a problem for anyone, regardless of what the variables are...
Sorry Jer. I missed the sarcasm.
I don’t know, I feel like part of this type of casters fluff is in the fact that he has to go out and collect the spells. I mean does magus just learn the new spells permanently? If not what happened to the spell? If so where did he get it from. I think that this is fine mechanically but hurts wizard and the fluff for the learned spell caster.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well, then I'm waiting for you to explain why it is flawed to think that a magus isn't broken because it can, at level 19, do something a level 13 wizard does.You assumption would be flawed then.Put me in the 'broken' camp too.
Pulling the spell out of the spell pool to throw? Good.
Pulling the spell out to put in a spellbook? Bad.
I presume you agree with me that wizards are broken by default, then. A level 13 wizard can do that, probably more times per day than a magus at 19 too.
I believe you are wanting to say "I don't see why a magus can do for free at 19th level something a 13th level wizard does for 1500 GP a pop." (assuming you're referring to using limited wish to cast spells not in their spellbook)
However, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so if you're not referring to limited wish by all means, enlighten me.
No, I did indeed refer to Limited Wish, especially considering 1500gp is a cheap price to pay at those levels for "what if everything goes to hell and I really need to get out of this pinch" resources.
But if it's the material cost that concerns you, then clerics are the ones doing better than the magus 2 levels earlier. Much better actually since Miracle is leaps and bounds better than limited wish.
Firstly, it would seem that some are confusing Knowledge Pool with Spell Pool. (Confusing names, I know.) While Knowledge Pool would allow you to pen any Magus spell as written, Spell Pool, does not. Being able to cast a spell spontaneously via Spell Pool is not the same as having it prepared and does not satisfy the requirement to write a spell in you book. Also, the "Greater Spell Pool - I Don't Like It" thread is further down for Spell Pool hate, just in case anyone missed it.
Basically, all this work around does is save you a few GP. It still takes day per level to add a spell to your book, and it costs the same to write it, all your saving is the cost of a scroll or borrowed book. Any Magus, or Wizard, could track down another Wizard and pay to copy some spells. The only way I see Knowledge Pool being a problem is in a campaign where mid-level (not high-level, the Magus doesn't get high-level spells) are rare and hard to come by. This setting is not Golarion, and in such a house ruled setting, I see know problem with house-ruling Knowledge Pool to work however best suits you.
I can see fluff-wise this can ruffle some feathers. A Magus no longer has to go out and learn magic, he can sit at home and learn all his spells, but it could be said he learns his magic adventuring, and after all, a wizard just pays to sit at a library instead of at home to learn his spells.
Oh, tricky. Well, given the magus spell list the problem is more concept than power balancing anyway. Just add a "must not craft or write in spellbook" clause.
As others have stated, I have no problems with the ability outside of the scroll/spellbook issue.
I'm ambivalent about using it for crafting. In all honesty, I'm not sure you'll see many...whatever the plural for this class is, taking crafting feats. It has a lot of feats to take as is.
Just add a note that the spells can't be used to make scrolls or write in spellbooks (and maybe the crafting thing? I guess?) and you're golden.
Incidentally, my gripe with it is not that it is "overpowered," and most definately not because it cheapens any other class. I'm just vaguely uncomfortable with a single ability giving the class every spell it could ever have. It's..."messy."
As others have stated, I have no problems with the ability outside of the scroll/spellbook issue.
I'm ambivalent about using it for crafting. In all honesty, I'm not sure you'll see many...whatever the plural for this class is, taking crafting feats. It has a lot of feats to take as is.
Just add a note that the spells can't be used to make scrolls or write in spellbooks (and maybe the crafting thing? I guess?) and you're golden.
Incidentally, my gripe with it is not that it is "overpowered," and most definately not because it cheapens any other class. I'm just vaguely uncomfortable with a single ability giving the class every spell it could ever have. It's..."messy."
I understand your problem with the ability, but as written it gives access to every spell it could ever have. They just have to spend the points each day.
Or to put it another way, the magus can prepare your BBEGs unique magus spell - he just cant write it down for some reason.
One easy fix would be to allow the magus to convert spells into the spell gained through knowledge pool, instead of prepairing it. That way it can´t be used for crafting or scribing.
As others have stated, I have no problems with the ability outside of the scroll/spellbook issue.
I'm ambivalent about using it for crafting. In all honesty, I'm not sure you'll see many...whatever the plural for this class is, taking crafting feats. It has a lot of feats to take as is.
Just add a note that the spells can't be used to make scrolls or write in spellbooks (and maybe the crafting thing? I guess?) and you're golden.
Incidentally, my gripe with it is not that it is "overpowered," and most definately not because it cheapens any other class. I'm just vaguely uncomfortable with a single ability giving the class every spell it could ever have. It's..."messy."
The it's messy comment is something I can agree with.
But most of the playtests were messy, and then got cleaned up decent.
magus should follow suit I think.
It`s clear the consensus is that allowing scribing into spellbook via this ability is bad. If that outcome is desired, one might as well just say ´The Magus spell list now includes all arcane spells´.
Personally, I don´t even see the reason they need an ability to cast off-list spells. It seems to undercut the point of the separate spell list in the first place, though it only kicks in at high level. I´d rather have NO special way to cast off spell list.
Maguses are completely free to use UMD with a Wand or Scroll, and doing so in fact synergizes with other class abilities. Almost any INT based caster will be upgrading their Headband of Intellect, making adding maxed out UMD at some point a no-brainer - so SOME sort of ability to use non-magus magic via UMD is PRACTICALLY built into the class WITHOUT any special class ability. I don´t think that having no special ability to cast off list will make them un-playable, and I think it`s better design to stick with a decision (spell list) rather than muck it up.
If off-list casting IS felt to be an important part of the class, I`d prefer there to be a more discernable difference between casting these magus spells and non-magus spells... Like non-list spells can´t be cast with Spell Combat and none of the class abilities granting bonuses to Concentration, etc. apply to non-list spells (making them easier to disrupt... which makes sense that magus spells would be honed to be especially hard to disrupt, while full casters don´t usually plan on casting all their spells in melee).
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Thinking about this, in a way, Pool Spell makes a Magus a better (but not 'more powerful') spontaneous caster than a Sorcerer (the Magus isn't limited by a 'spells known' list AFAIK, and doesn't seem to have to take a casting time penalty for using Metamagic with his spontaneous spells), and Knowledge Pool makes him a better prepared caster than a Wizard. The limited list of Magus spells is a bit of a bind for him (if it stays limited), but the Spell Blending Arcana helps him cherry-pick some of the other spells he feels are essential...
Spell Blending (Ex): When a magus selects this arcana, he
must select one spell from the wizard spell list that is of
a magus spell level he can cast. He adds this spell to his
spellbook and list of magus spells known. He can instead
select two spells to add in this way, but both must be at least
one level lower than the highest-level magus spell he can
cast. A magus can select this magus arcana more than once.
... the bit I've emphasized indicates that such spells are treated as Magus spells, so he can Pool Spell them if he wishes. The wording is a little strange, as it does seem to differentiate between the Magus's 'spellbook' and his 'magus spells known' - are these different? I can't see how... unless 'magus spells known' are more than what's in his spellbook (does he 'know', and can pool spell, any magus spell he knows about, or has witnessed, or something?). Maybe the wording needs a little cleaning up there to make it crystal clear?
Of course, the Magus will already have any Spell Blending spells in his spellbook, so the Knowledge Pool-to-spellbook issue is moot for them.
My take on the Knowledge Pool-to-spellbook issue would be that it's a problem, mostly on grounds of fluff (why's he spending his nights in the library again?). Adding the 'can't be used to scribe spells' line wouldn't be breaking any internal logic, I feel, any more than the Knowledge Pool does already - those spells already vanish when you prepare new spells, which 'normal' prepared spells don't, so they're already 'weird' in that respect.
To be honest, the more I think about it, the less I'm sold on the Knowledge Pool at all. The Pool Spell (like a Wizard's bonded object) actually encourages the character to go out and track down new spells for his book - the more he has in his book, the more options he has for his Pool Spells. The mechanics support the fluff (ah, so that's why he's spending his nights at the library!). The Knowledge Pool seems to do the opposite, even if you couldn't use it to scribe spells. I'm not sure how much it adds to the flavour of the class, other than making all Magi a bit more homogeneous? Not sure of a good alternative though...
Interesting... I had not considered this option.
Hmm. Question for the crowd. Is this a problem or a feature?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Problem.
See the 3.5 Artificer.
Spell management used to be an option for the GM to use to manage Arcanes in the game. This kind of thing is highly undesirable IMO.
... the bit I've emphasized indicates that such spells are treated as Magus spells, so he can Pool Spell them if he wishes. The wording is a little strange, as it does seem to differentiate between the Magus's 'spellbook' and his 'magus spells known' - are these different?Spell Blending (Ex): When a magus selects this arcana, he
must select one spell from the wizard spell list that is of
a magus spell level he can cast. He adds this spell to his
spellbook and list of magus spells known. He can instead
select two spells to add in this way, but both must be at least
one level lower than the highest-level magus spell he can
cast. A magus can select this magus arcana more than once.
The wording is a bit strange indeed, but the magi's spells known is just what they put on their spellbook, just like wizards. The Blending arcana, basically, expands the magi's list.
New here, figured I'd give my opinion.
Letting them scribe it, is too much. However I have no problem with the ability. It's neat and personally I'd be willing to stick with the new playtest magus as is aside from some more arcana and having a full spell list. I think they just need a small line that says you can't scribe it down in your spellbook or on a scroll.
An even better way in my opinion was they can use the ability to prepare any spell they've prepared at least once before. It'll give them a neat advantage and insurance against losing their spell book. Nifty, and not game breaking. It gets rid of the fluff problem of them preparing spells they should have no knowledge of.
How does that sound?
It's not making a distinction, it's being clear. Sometimes I worry about the way people read rules for this game. If it said you add them to you spell book people would rightly point out that a Magus can't cast them because they aren't the Magus list. If it just said add them to the Magus list people would say the Magus still needs to reaserchit or copy it from another spell book.
Go back and look at the old 3.5 Warmage and its ability to add spells to its list. This is super common with spontaneous casters who use a limited sub-set. Only as the Magus is a prepared caster it needs to be added to his list and give as a freebie in his spell book so he can prepare it and cast it.
I`m confused by your response Dorje, you say the Spell Blending wording (to clarify, since we´re off-thread topic) is not making a distinction, but then you justify the wording on the basis that the distinction matters and that`s why they need to mention both aspects.
I feel there´s just a better way to achieve the same ends than the wording that is used... It seems people are reading the ability as the Spell Blending spell now counts as a Magus spell for any and every effect (via being on the Magus Spells Known list), but this could really just be stated directly.
I.e., ´He adds this spell to his spellbook, and treats it as a Magus spell of identical Spell Level´.
OR, if it ISN´T meant to be treated as a Magus spell (e.g. for Spellstrike), it could say ´He adds this spell to his spellbook, and may memorize it using his Magus spell slots even though it otherwise doesn`t count as a Magus Spell´.
I do wonder about cases of using Spell Blending to learn spells which ARE available as Magus Spells but only at a higher Spell Level than the normal Wizard list... It seems like Spell Blending could be a ´cheat´ around that (unless restrictive wording is added to the final).
Interesting... I had not considered this option.
Hmm. Question for the crowd. Is this a problem or a feature?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I see this as a problem. The magus should not be able to learn spells easier than a fully dedicated spellcaster. A magus must split his focus between arcane and marshal paths thus making him versatile but unable to focus on spell learning.
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I think this ability should be abandoned. Not because it is too powerful. But because it doesn't seem to fit the magus. The magus is suppose to be a fighter/wizard type. I'm not sure how this ability fits into it at all other than flexibility.
I understand using the arcana pool is suppose to straddle the line between a prepared casters, and a spontaneous caster, but the more I think about it, I don't understand why the magus is the class to do the straddling. I suppose the fluff is something like "they train their minds to adapt and blend magic and metal, and that same training allows them to apply magic differently".
Pool magic makes sense since it's something the magus knows, but he's tapping into the arcane pool to immediately cast that spell as opposed to preparing it beforehand.
What to replace it with? Not sure.
BTW, I hate the name of arcane pool and Pool Spell. It seems like name that should be saved for magic overall. Perhap use magus pool instead, but not sure what name to use for Pool Spell.
Just thought of another potential abuse allowing it to add spells to spellbooks.
A wizard could exploit this rather heavily.
I know, you're saying 'How can a Wizard possibly exploit this!'.
Simple, at 7th level, take leadership. Get a magus as a cohort. Have the Magus stay in camp and do nothing but think up spells to scribe into his (and your other) spellbook. Sure, he's a bit behind you, but you'll have in no time spellbooks with every spell on the magus list (all of which are Wizard spells) stored neatly in your wizard books.
When he's done with every known spell in the world for his level, buy a new spellbook, and leave him back in camp scribing more in while you adventure. Eventually he'll level up (since his level is based on yours). In the meantime, you have for the cost of a feat a spell and money machine.
I think this ability should be abandoned. Not because it is too powerful. But because it doesn't seem to fit the magus. The magus is suppose to be a fighter/wizard type. I'm not sure how this ability fits into it at all other than flexibility.
I understand using the arcana pool is suppose to straddle the line between a prepared casters, and a spontaneous caster, but the more I think about it, I don't understand why the magus is the class to do the straddling. I suppose the fluff is something like "they train their minds to adapt and blend magic and metal, and that same training allows them to apply magic differently".
Pool magic makes sense since it's something the magus knows, but he's tapping into the arcane pool to immediately cast that spell as opposed to preparing it beforehand.
What to replace it with? Not sure.
BTW, I hate the name of arcane pool and Pool Spell. It seems like name that should be saved for magic overall. Perhap use magus pool instead, but not sure what name to use for Pool Spell.
It's written right there in the class:
Magi spend much of their time traveling the
world, learning whatever martial or arcane secrets they
can find. They might spend months learning a new swordfighting
style from a master warrior, while simultaneously
moonlighting in the local library, poring through tomes
of ancient lore. Most who take this path dabble in all sorts
of lore, picking up anything that might aid them in their
search for perfection.
Their arcane pick-ups are more easily compared to that of a factotum than a wizard's
Never assume that your personal opinion is a consensus, especially since 1) there are people here who disagree with that conclusion and 2) this is not exactly what you call a reliable dataset.It`s clear the consensus is that allowing scribing into spellbook via this ability is bad. If that outcome is desired, one might as well just say ´The Magus spell list now includes all arcane spells´.
1) Consensus doesn't mean 'everyone agrees'. It means 'most people agree'. Based on the thread so far, I think he was quite safe saying it's a clear consensus based on the thread. Based on the thread, it is. Just count up the # of posters pro vs con. Just because people disagree doesn't mean it isn't a consensus. It just indicates it's not a unanimous agreement.
1. An opinion or position reached by a group as a whole.
2. General agreement or accord.
2) Irrelevant. This is the only dataset that is available. In a playtest, the dataset is those people who care enough to contribute. What the general RPG public would feel is irrelevant, as they do not contribute to the playtest feedback. When using a playtest mechanic, the developers can only rely on the feedback they get, not on nebulous 'someone else might not feel that way' assertions.
Please note, I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, just pointing out that within this context, it is indeed a consensus thus far (that could change if a bunch of people switch sides, or new people post in favor of it). And that this dataset is the relevant dataset for this question.
I'm not sure I see this as a problem really. You still have to pay the cost of copying/crafting, so its not that big of a deal to me. If a character that already has weapons and armor to worry about wants to take the scribe scroll feat, spend the gold and make the required spellcraft check to create a scroll, and than spend even more gold and attempt to make another spellcraft check in order to copy it into his spellbook, let him. It just means less gold for his other equipment.
I'm not sure I see this as a problem really. You still have to pay the cost of copying/crafting, so its not that big of a deal to me. If a character that already has weapons and armor to worry about wants to take the scribe scroll feat, spend the gold and make the required spellcraft check to create a scroll, and than spend even more gold and attempt to make another spellcraft check in order to copy it into his spellbook, let him. It just means less gold for his other equipment.
The problem is, the Magus with the ability as it stands skips the scroll step. Remember, you can scribe any spell you have memorized into your spell book for the cost of scribing it in. No need to put it on a scroll first. In fact, if I read the rules correctly, you can scribe it into your spell book and expend the spell and it doesn't take a day per level (as it would to scribe from the scroll to the spell book). It's just pay the gold and say it's done.
I'm going to throw my hat in with the "problem" crowd. Having a new and different way of acquiring spells would be cool, but this would not only be getting those spells for essentially free, it would bring your campaign to a screeching halt. I know at least in the case of my GMs, there's usually some sort of story based "clock" that wouldn't allow one of the players to just take a week off to discover spells.
Just thought of another potential abuse allowing it to add spells to spellbooks.
A wizard could exploit this rather heavily.
I know, you're saying 'How can a Wizard possibly exploit this!'.
Simple, at 7th level, take leadership. Get a magus as a cohort. Have the Magus stay in camp and do nothing but think up spells to scribe into his (and your other) spellbook. Sure, he's a bit behind you, but you'll have in no time spellbooks with every spell on the magus list (all of which are Wizard spells) stored neatly in your wizard books.
When he's done with every known spell in the world for his level, buy a new spellbook, and leave him back in camp scribing more in while you adventure. Eventually he'll level up (since his level is based on yours). In the meantime, you have for the cost of a feat a spell and money machine.
Except, the Magus has to pay the costs for scribing it, then the Wizard has to pay the cost again to copy it into his spellbook. It's far cheaper to go find a hedge mage and pay him to copy spells from his books.
The ONLY time this breaks down, is if finding even low level spells difficult/impossible, which is NOT the norm.
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Interesting... I had not considered this option.
Hmm. Question for the crowd. Is this a problem or a feature?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
In order to decide if it is a problem, it is necessary to take account of the design goals, and the designer’s intent.
Since you have expressed surprise at this apparent loophole, it is clear that it was not your intent to have it work this way.
Hence, the rule needs amending, so that it reads the way it was intended to work; a way that it doesn’t currently read.
That, by definition, makes it a problem (for me).
Just thought of another potential abuse allowing it to add spells to spellbooks.
A wizard could exploit this rather heavily.
I know, you're saying 'How can a Wizard possibly exploit this!'.
Simple, at 7th level, take leadership. Get a magus as a cohort. Have the Magus stay in camp and do nothing but think up spells to scribe into his (and your other) spellbook. Sure, he's a bit behind you, but you'll have in no time spellbooks with every spell on the magus list (all of which are Wizard spells) stored neatly in your wizard books.
When he's done with every known spell in the world for his level, buy a new spellbook, and leave him back in camp scribing more in while you adventure. Eventually he'll level up (since his level is based on yours). In the meantime, you have for the cost of a feat a spell and money machine.
Except, the Magus has to pay the costs for scribing it, then the Wizard has to pay the cost again to copy it into his spellbook. It's far cheaper to go find a hedge mage and pay him to copy spells from his books.
The ONLY time this breaks down, is if finding even low level spells difficult/impossible, which is NOT the norm.
The money's not an issue though, as you will just fill up a spell book, sell it for much more than what it cost to fill it, lather rinse repeat.
At that point, you might as well just give all wizards a spell book at 7th level that has all spells below 2nd, and continues to grow as they level.
The money's not an issue though, as you will just fill up a spell book, sell it for much more than what it cost to fill it, lather rinse repeat.
How do you figure that? A spellbook sells for half what it costs to fill it. Even if the Magus only pays for the scribing (double the cost of the spell itself) you're still not breaking even on the sale.
At that point, you might as well just give all wizards a spell book at 7th level that has all spells below 2nd, and continues to grow as they level.
You mean like I (and I assume many others) do with every Wizard I play. Sure it costs a little money and takes a little time, but it's worth it to be able to prep any spell you want.
It costs the Magus a little less, and takes a little less time, but the Magus also has a Spell list less the half that of a Wizard.|
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This is a problem, for the reasons already stated, namely,
- reducing the cost of learning spells,
- removing the requirement to find rare spells in play,
- hindering the GM's attempts to limit access to Ye Olde Scrolle Shoppe,
- throwing all private spell research wide open to remote-Magus copyright piracy, and
- encouraging dumpster-diving through every third-party 3.X source.
The last was bad news in the past, when allowed free reign by Archivists, Artificers, or Magi of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane PrC), whose class ability appears to be the model for this.
I've played a MotAO (see this alias), and I've felt the temptation, to go burrowing through every book. But I consider myself a responsible player, because I know what it's like on the other side of the screen, and I held back from going crazy.
I don't believe in using any option, that I would object to having a GM use against me, and have better things to do than get into wars of escalation. Many times, if I saw something that appears far too good for its level, I would ask for an amnesty on it. "I won't use it, if no-one else does."
Other players aren't as considerate, and have an adversarial attitude to their GM. It's not fair on your GM, to be throwing surprises at them, putting them on the spot, forcing them to accept your PC throwing out spell effects they've never heard of, from books they don't own, which are declared with a wave of the hand, as a fait accompli. When the session clock is ticking away, is not the time to drag out some untested crap you found in a fanzine, or off someone's blog.
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If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook.
The problem is one carried forward from the Core Rules.
Since Core classes don't have a method of preparing spells they don't already know*, the wording above is sufficient for them, since the writers had no way of predicting that a later class may come along who could prepare spells not known.*And, in the case of Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle, you aren't preparing those spells from off your list; you're preparing Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle, which can replicate the effects of spells from off your list.
The fix, for now, is to put a clause in the Magus abilities, to specifically prohibit scribing or crafting with these borrowed spells.
But maybe, later printings of the Core Rules could preempt future classes, prestige classes, archetypes, etc. by amending the Core Rules to the following:
A prepared caster (such as a wizard) can scribe any spell he already knows, and currently has prepared, directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook.
This is a problem, for the reasons already stated, namely,
reducing the cost of learning spells,
By 33%. Less than a crafting feat.
removing the requirement to find rare spells in play,
Spell rarity is a house-rule. If the RAW doesn't mesh with your house-rule, make more house-rules.
hindering the GM's attempts to limit access to Ye Olde Scrolle Shoppe,
The only valid argument. However, this is not the norm for most organized play, and certainly not PFS, so: House-Rule!
throwing all private spell research wide open to remote-Magus copyright piracy,
Independently Researched spells are, by their nature, not on the Magus spell list, and not eligible for Knowledge Pool.
and encouraging dumpster-diving through every third-party 3.X source.
there is not a single Magus spell in any 3.x book.
If it's really a problem, make it so that they can only hold the knowledge of the spell for one round if they get it via the spell pool. Any crafting or copying you do is going take longer than that, so that would effectively eliminate the possibility of abuse from that. Also, gold has not exactly been overflowing in any campaign I've been in, including the organized play campaigns, so unless the DM is particularly generous with handing the PCs spare income, it is a very real limiting factor in many campaigns, especially for a class like the magus that has to worry about both figher gear and wizard gear.
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Interesting... I had not considered this option.
Hmm. Question for the crowd. Is this a problem or a feature?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
If it were a wizard I would call it a bug, but with the limited spell selection the Magus will have I'd say it's a feature.
==AKA 8one6
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If it were a wizard I would call it a bug, but with the limited spell selection the Magus will have I'd say it's a feature.
==
AKA 8one6
Yeah, I can see how that would be the case. LOL