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Goblinworks Executive Founder. Organized Play Member. 1,846 posts (1,856 including aliases). No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character. 3 aliases.


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Goblinworks Executive Founder

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:

Opposed. Entirely player driven economy means just that. It will interfere further pricing and with the auction houses of groups that have chosen to devote to that path.

An NPC shop, for very specifically basic necessary Tier 1 +0 weapons would be no more disruptive to the parts of the player crafting/farming economy that is actually important than the current infinite goblin farm is.

As I pointed out that exact gear is farmed at road-bump goblins in front of every starter NPC settlement. The Tier 1 +0 starter weapons are REQUIRED to fight in PFO.

Even in Alpha right now they are getting dumped into the AHs at 1 CP per item. Even things with complex multi-ranked crafting requirements. There is no functional player driven market for Tier 1 +0 Weapons. There may as well be an NPC shop for these items (at something above 1 CP values) so RNGesus doesn't sucker punch new players out of the game before they start.

Even the current advice being given to people getting in pre-EE is to "farm the goblins until it drops". This means generating exactly what an NPC shop would be selling, that the player doesn't want/need. All of which will just be dumped into the local AH at 1 cp or given out for free.

The part of the market that is important is anything Tier 2 and up, or with Upgrades +1 and up. I am NOT suggesting that those be NPC store buy-able.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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<kabal> Bunibuni wrote:

Except the players, I hope!!!!!

Or is this going to be like one of those Japanese horror movies but instead of a girl coming out of our TV sets, we will have hoards of goblins jumping out of our computer screens to kill us and eat us?

Nothing survives! ಠ_ಠ



I'm still in favor of NPC shops that sell the most basic of Tier 1 +0 starter gear. The stuff we currently farm off goblins in front of starter towns. Allowing players to exchange coin into a money sink if the RNG of them and other players don't provide what they need as STARTING GEAR.

The power in crafting comes from making reliable acces to Tier 2 or Upgraded items.

Since the infinite goblin farm for Tier 1 +0 there should be an NPC shop option. Its a defense against the vagaries of RNG. I'm not saying Tier 1 +0 NPC Starter items should be cheap, certainly there should be plenty of room to be under cut at the AH.

This does several practical things

1) Gives new players without friend support a path to Role specific gear they need without being RNGed out of it.

2) Shows new players what is considered "essential" equipment. (Which is much less than you'd think coming in from other MMOs or PnP background)

3) Gives new players a reason to check the auction house for lower prices.

4) Prevents monopolistic lockouts on basic "starter" equipment. (An indvidual or group buying out all 1cp or other cheap AH listings and increasing the cost.)

5) Creates an early game money sink where new players get used to the idea of the cycle: dying and buying replacement gear.

An NPC shop does no more damage to the Player side crafting economy than the infinite goblins do.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Mechanically a semi-permentent buff is virtually the same as current Feats you swap out. The differance comes in when and where you can swap it out for somehting else. If its that persistent and is going to likely be reapplied shortly after it wears off, its essentially a passive feat with notable advantage and disadvantage (taking a power penalty for example)

Pets can possibly be balanced by looking at actions per "Round" (6 seconds). A pet gives you an extra set of automated actions beyond what you'd normally do. A balance point would be to slow or reduce the number of actions you take while the pet is out, distributing your actions across mulipte targets at distance. Penalizing cool downs would be the solution that comes to my mind.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Ryan Dancey wrote:
As I understand it, XP isn't actually acrrued. We just take your character's starting timestamp and compute its XP, less whatever Feats you've trained. So barring some kind of unfixable database corruption that affects the record of the start timestamp, you can't lose XP.

Most excellent. That's how I was hoping the system worked. As long as there is a timestamp all should be good.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Ah suck it voices in my head! See we aren't crazy!

Any assurances on how XP gain is saved? While rollbacks on position, items, and feats bought is annoying, loosing XP will be the deal breaker for many.

It doesn't seem like the rollbacks hit Total Cumulative XP, but some assurance there would help heading into EE.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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TEO Malvius012 wrote:
Yep I think way more might be a bit of a stretch but once we have persistent characters people will want to start developing them. Personally I don't THINK I have lost any XP with rollbacks but I can understand the concern when its a persistent character affected.

What that really means is we need a secondary catch. A character who's been Training for X amount of time (should be logged) should have Y amount of XP. This can be checked against the costs of all Feats purchased. If there is a discrepancy server side, recompile the total shown. To simplify storage requirements, store the Start and Stop dates of Training, and its easy enough to back check.

Its a change in methodology, depending on how GW has set up the programming on the back end. Instead of just adding 1 XP to all Training accounts every time unit, you store start and stop times as well to be a backup incase something like, THE ROOF OF THE DATA CENTER COLLAPSES FROM SNOW and shuts everyting down for a while. (It's been known to happend :P.)

Realistically the subscription to PFO is covering a months worth of XP gain. If your character(s) cumaltively have less than that GW would not have fulfill that obligation.


It would reassure the nervice to know that such a real world date/time based backstop was in place, so they know that the XP credit they're paying for is protected.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I'm not keen on Ulf's suggestion there.

100% Escalations are already proving notoriously sticky and difficulty to knock down. To add further penalties related to them would, to me, just make resources simply more scarce. Not enhance the game play in any serious way.

In some ways those high Escalations do already deminish avalible nodes, when they spawn inside the detection range of a mob pack. Or inside the group of mobs itself. This means you either have fight the mobs for it (assuming you can) or be such an Expericenced sneak that you can get in and out without alerting them.

A compromise would be to bias the spawn system in high escalations toward putting Nodes closer to Mob spawns instead of just being kinda scattered randomly. Thus increasing the proximity of danger without actually reducing the total number of node spawns or the rare. Or make changes to the AI so they are inclided to come "investigate" nodes being harvested near them.

Personally not in favor of either, but they are options.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Neadenil Edam wrote:

Our chief weapon is surprise, fear of rollbacks and surprise;

ummh ... our two chief weapons are, fear of rollbacks, surprise, and ruthlessly efficient teleports!

Er, among our chief weapons are: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and a near fanatical devotion to Ryan!

Um, I'll come in again...

No one expects the Desnan Inquistion!

No seriously, who would expect Desna to have Inquisitors? :-/

Goblinworks Executive Founder

13, explained) Higher Tiers and Upgrades(+1/2/3) activate more Keywords on Feats. If your item doesn't give you matching Keywords your Feat does not improve. Look at your weapons and the Keywords its Rank and Upgrade give you acess to. Usually this will be only 1 Keyword. The item must be Tier 2+ or have an Upgrade 1+ to give you more Keywords.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Kadere wrote:
Spreadsheets in space? No. Spreadsheets in the River Kingdoms.

WoW, LoL, or even PnP Pathfinder is Spreadsheets, just fewer of them since the number of combinations and variables are fewer. :P

Xeen wrote:
You are absolutely correct Cheatle. It would need to have a filter and etc. It was done in Eve, but it is easier to do in a space game like that.

Massive battlefield organization was also done in the real world :P.

I think extending those practices into digital metaphors would be a valid process. Flag Bearers, Buglers, Drummers, etc.

The methodology in EVE would mostly still apply. As someone who's been a mid-point command ships in larger battles and a Mining Operation director, the only person who really gets UI overload are people at higher points in the Fleet structure. Even then for PFO some of that status information could be cut back from a "setting" stand.

In a space game like EVE it makes sense for command ships to be getting status information from everything in a fleet in near-real time. In a "fantasy" setting like PFO most battlefield commanders won't be able to track the health of individuals. At best they can watch the Flag Bearers of a unit to get an idea of that group as a whole. Calling out individual targets from a distance is likely wise an issue unless the target is very big. Most of the time that's down to individual Party leaders and soldiers to execute on general orders like "attack the commander", "stop the casters", "heal the injured".

The biggest issue is not group organization, that's mainly making sure people in the same Party/Squad/Army are flagged and marked appropriately to each other. The issue is Loot Share/Logging, and that system took CCP a while to get into EVE Fleets.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

KotC - Erian El'ranelen wrote:
It doesn't sound like escalations without involved players actually increase server load (which makes sense--no players should equal the server not spending resources on those areas). Rather, the 100% escalations all over the map seem to be forcing the few players that are on to avoid those areas, and thus concentrate the players in smaller areas. This in turn increases server load in those hexes. If my admittedly crude assessment is close, then I'm not certain it's a valid test of what should actually occur in EE.

+1 This.

That is a very rational and logical explanation. Although I disagree that we wouldn't see this kind of behavior in EE. We would actually see it more acutely.

100% escalations are darn near impossible to break without a massive commitment from fairly well leveled and geared characters. When EE and the wipe comes that segment of heavy hitting characters will be gone. Escalations will start and grow unchecked, blocking off sections and forcing the lower level characters to cluster in "safer" zones.

Veteran Players will be able to navigate themselves through the escalations to farther regions, but any/many newer players will get get stuck just as they are now.


However without some form of Player Numbers data on our end we can't verify or identify if this kind of player clustering due to 100% Escalations is happening.

In the short to medium term I wounder if it would be possible to impose a Cap on Escalations power. Maybe something proportional due to its distance from its originating "Home" hex.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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I am also going to side with Audoucet. Goblin Works made commitments to those of us who KickStarted them. In many of the ways that matter we are their publishers and they need to deliver the product they pitched us. We aren't at that point of dispute, yet. So lets not go down the path of "they don't owe you, yes they do" quite yet.


On technical issues. I've noticed that every time I log in recently with "Lokesh Brasten" he's stuck in Thornkeep and based on the description of the issue, desynced.

What would likely be helpful for US testers would be some method of identifying general regions that are controlled by which server.

If Goblin Works wants cogent bug reports out of us we need some additional forms of data on our end. A user facing ID of the Server controlling the Hex we're in, a log or onscreen display of those servers so we can add them to bug reports, a display of the number active players in said "region", and similar things. Help us help you, after all many of us are quite invested already. This thread is a good start.

What troubles me is if getting moved servers is the way load is getting handled, and many people seem to be getting dumped to Thornkeep... that just puts a load in the Thornkeep region at no one can escape from because of a self perpetuating overload.

I would point out that even CCP has to sometimes issue "travel" adversaries for players inside the EVE universe itself to warn player's of exactly the same kinds of congestion and overload. Players will even get booted back or forward, or sideways a system. Granted the server infrastructure for EVE is more or robust and granular so getting booted out of a system is less disruptive, but it still can happen.


Speaking thematically, since every "character" is being supported by Pharasma, it would not be unreasonable to have some form of "souls" count on a "region" (a.k.a server). Pharasma has only so much influence to keep PCs "in the world". When that "influence" is getting over taxed (servers at or beyond safe capacity) it would be helpful to warn players ahead of time. That way they can either disperse and clear out the congestion or navigate around it to their destination.

Pharasma Influence Zones/Regions would allow for some degree of player self-regulation, as well circumnavigation of congested areas. This happens all the time in EVE (especially avoiding the Jita system), the largest functioning example of this kind of all-in-one-clustered-world structure.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I currently run Windows off a MacPro(early 2008, with post upgrades), and bounce back and forth between both OS on a fairly regular bases.

I would not say no to a Mac OSX client.

Gorbacz wrote:
Checked your blood pressure lately?

Checked the forum history of this weapon since Ultimate Combat? Apparently Paizo didn't either.

TL;DR summation of rant

Rewrite Ultimate Equipment Scorpion Whip as follows.

Table entry:

Whip, Scorpion .... 15 gp .... 1d3 .... 1d4 .... x2 .... — .... 3 lb. .... S .... Performance

Scorpion Whip
Price 15 gp
Type exotic

This whip has a series of razor-sharp blades and fangs inset along its tip. If you are proficient with whips you are proficient with the scorpion whip, you can use it as a whip.


I've been getting back into Pathfinder after a decent hiatus and am only now digging into Ultimate Equipment... and much to my horror I find the butchered Ultimate Combat version of the Scorpion Whip still clinging to life.

What was wrong the Adventurer's Armory Scorpion Whip? I want a designer to answer. Paizo, you've managed to dodge and basically ignore all feedback you got when you rolled out the UC version. You haven't addressed any of the problems or confusion pointed out. Such as why does it suddenly change from a Light weapon to a One-Handed weapon if you're proficient with and use it like a normal Whip.

From a mechanical standpoint the now Ultimate Equipment Scorpion Whip is a bogus use of the Exotic Weapon proficiency. The gladius makes a better choice. The knuckle axe, madu, Pata, Quadrens, and Sica as well.

.... *insert rage face meme here*

Okay I get it, a 15 foot reach lethal damage melee weapon isn't coming back as single feat equipment. For whatever strange reason you've decided this isn't balanced and you had to find a way to force Whip using characters into taking the Whip Mastery feat chain.

However could you at the minimum errata your neutered Scorpion Whip so that it's covered by Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip). If you have to bump the gold price to 15 gp instead of 5. As it stands there is zero logical reason to take EWP (Scorpion Whip). It's dead end for the "performance" tag and takes you out of the way of the Whip Mastery set

In short rewrite the entry as "Whip, Scorpion". The same way the game already treats a "Bow" and its Composite entires. "For purposes of Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus a scorpion whip is treated as if it were a whip." See even dropping the "and similar feats" to avoid any oddities that could come up from Whip Mastery.

OR to really KISS and save some word space

This whip has a series of razor-sharp blades and fangs inset along its tip. It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips you are proficient with the scorpion whip, you can use it as a whip.

5 extra words to turn a failure into something usable. plus 1 extra character to bump the gold price from 5g to 15g

You really want to get skimpy and rely on the implied elements of the weapon table

This whip has a series of razor-sharp blades and fangs inset along its tip. If you are proficient with whips you are proficient with the scorpion whip, you can use it as a whip.

Note completely dropping the "lethal damage part". It already has its entry doing 1d4 lethal damage, the lack of a "nonlethal" tag is a giveaway there. The only confusion will remain the "you can use it as a whip." part, which is currently a point of confusion as it is currently written so no change there.

Its things like this that make me glad I don't participate in Pathfinder Society play, as I can house rule poor design choices like this out of my games.

Just getting back into Pathfinder after a hiatus...

And the Scorpion Whip for Ultimate Combat returns for more failure. Paizo, did you not get the rather heavy hint that is was a bad design choice to take. It's nonsensical and contradicts itself.

You didn't do anything to solve the issue of what the "if you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip," part where Scorpion Whip is a light weapon and a Whip is One-handed.

You had a viable, working weapon in the Adventures Armory version of the Scorpion Whip. It wasn't over powered. It was doing basically the same job as throwing Daggers at the cost an exotic weapon proficiency for most classes. Plus it didn't have odd wording. If you were concerned about "balance" it would have been better just to bump the cost up.

Fail, fail, fail. You don't even let Exotic Weapon Proficiency ( Whip ) cover both your totally neutered "performance" weapon and the normal whip.

An Exotic 1d4 light melee weapon with only performance as it's specially ability is not acceptable. The Gladius does a better job then hack job you pulled on the poor scorpion whip.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

That's basically what happens in EVE. PvE 'adventure' is resource gathering. Occasionally there will be 'rarer' items that drop among the crud. At which point it's more akin how Pen and Paper party treasure can get divvied up. Do you buy it with your "share", does it goes to the person of greatest need? And so on.

The typical end result is all 'junk' is carted out, sold or scrapped, and a payment is made by the 'leader' to split the proceeds usually evenly (but any distribution will do). In the case of scrapped (broke down for raw materials) the 'leader' is typically obligated to pay at least minimum market value.

The only way this process could be speed up would be to auto-sell items at as some set market value, but that brings a wealth of headaches. As long as the tedium doesn't outweigh return it's part of the situation. If you take every last Dog-Slicer out of massive goblin warren ya gotta find a way to sell it, or at least sell the scrap when you break it down.

When I left EVE they had just added Fleet loot logging. Basically just a list of what was picked up and by whom, and when, while the Fleet was active. Both as a way to quickly assign payment (often mission running leaders would pay out of pocket to Fleet members, and then sell the loot later) and to keep track of who tried to quietly grabbed the "super widget 9000".

If Thorin's 'company' in the Hobbit had loot logging enable Gandalf would have been able to see:

The One Ring; Bilbo Baggins; Third Age - 2941 - A few days after Midsummers day - ~5:00 pm

And then we'd get How the Hobbit Should Have Ended.


Yes, I'd immagine you'd have to be in a group structure to join someone else's dungeon and not get flagged as a thief. EVE uses impromptu Fleets for this. City of Heroes used to do Teams.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Valandur wrote:
Dorje Sylas wrote:

I would like to come up with some method a player could come to the aid of another being attacked without getting flags or penalties for doing so. Coming up with some way for the game to recognize this might not be easy though.

If a player got jumped by bandits, I would assume the bandits would have the "Attacker" flag? With this flag someone could step in and engage the bandits without penalties right? If this is correct, would the 3ed party suffer any penalties if he kills one or both of the bandits?

Let me turn this on its head just because its too easy to pain the defender as a Good (with a capital G) guy. A group of Robin Hood style bandits are harassing and looting the trader backing a Lawful Evil power base (steal for the rich and Evil). Assume this scenario.

There are two different scenarios to consider actually, depending on how the flagging system is implemented

1) the "Attacker'" is the first aggressor, they started it, they got the "chaotic" ding.

2) the "Defender" started it by attacking the 'Attacker' after they got flagged as criminal of say picking the "Defender's" pocket.

3rdly) Where this is happening, in full open PvP or a heavily NPC protected area.


Assuming a NPC protected area, where the 'Attacker' is going to get curbed stomp for starting the fight... when the NPCs show up.

In EVE the flagging system is not inherited, not exactly. If I roll up and shoot the 'aggressor' in a fight I'm not in yet I am now a new 'aggressor' by the system rules. The system doesn't take the criminal flagging into account.

In order for a 'aid' the defender system to word, it has to take the status of flagging into account. A bit of auto-grouping essentially.

Lets take (2), as this is the more common "wish I could help but can't" situation that occurs in EVE.

1: "Attacker" steals from "Defender's" kill; Flagged Criminal ("Defender" can attack without NPC reaction)

2: "Defender" attacks "Attacker"; Flagged Aggressor toward "Attacker" ("Attacker" can attack without NPC reaction)

3: "3rd Party" attacks "Attacker: Flagged Aggressor (NPCs come running and curb-stomp "3rd Party".)

That's how EVE does it. To let a 3rd party actually get in you have a bit of inheritance.

1: "Attacker" steals from "Defender's" kill; Flagged Criminal ("Defender" can attack without NPC reaction)

2: "Defender" attacks "Attacker"; Flagged Aggressor toward "Attacker" ("Attacker" can attack without NPC reaction)

3: "3rd Party" attacks "Attacker": Flagged Aggressor toward "Attacker" (because the "Attacker" is already Flagged Criminal, no NPC reaction. "Attacker" can counter attack "3rd party")

What about someone coming to the Attacker's aid in the above? Personally, if this is happening in a NPC protected zone, pox on the Attacker. He chose to bait and play games that way. Even if he's the noble thief Robinhood, let the NPCs curb-stomp his buddies if they try to jump in. In a 'protected' space, the disadvantage should be on the "Attacker" and anyone else should have the option of giving them a swift kick for it without an NPC.

The only Criminal flag is the one given to the "Attacker". If the "Attacker" is both Criminal and Aggressor, open session game.

There is another mess that can be created, where the "Attacker" steals the loot and then drops it. The "Defender" then picks it back up and gets flagged for stealing the "Attacker's" now item. In EVE ownership is appending to the "container" holding the items. Not sure how ownership will be handled in PFO, but I'd guess it will be similar just to avoid database issues. 20 lumps of Gold Ore wont' get a variable of their original miner's name. It's the act of taking from a pack/sack/loot-bag/body that flags, not the actual possession of item.

In the case of both being flagged, things would get mess as both would be Aggressor and Criminal, meaning a kind of bloody free for all on the two. The only way I can think to mitigate that is to allow the "Defender" to steal from the "Attacker" (who is already flagged criminal) without getting flagged himself.

This would actually be best written in programing logic and I'll have to come back later with that.


Now lets take the NPC reaction force out of the loop. Now the states of "Criminal", Aggressor, Attacker, Defender, aren't really an issue outside of how it impacts Reputation and Alignment. And that is a slightly different tangent.

A Flagging system is all about who is allowed to do what to whom under the eyes of the NPC guardian system. When you take the AI guardians out of the equation Flagging doesn't really matter, which is what unrestricted totally open PvP is.

Without NPC guards. I can jump in whenever I feel like it... and so can anyone else. The only issue then becomes how Alignment and Reputation get affected. Which one of the major issues this thread has brought up. Exactly what acts do what and how much to whom. Bigger can of worms, but related to "Can-Flipping" and "High-Sec" griefing tricks.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Jousting tournaments, the Melee, wrestling, martial arts competitions.

The Chaotic way of combat is to just walk up to the fellow and slug him.

The Lawful way is to throw your glove in his face.

The Evil way is leave a corpse at the end (maybe two).

The Good (or at least Neutral) way is to leave an unconscious body. I guess Good would stopping at first blood or some other rather lenient 'scoring' system, like in boxing, wresting, or various martial arts.

I take issue with point #4. Without a 'dual/tournament/contest' system you can't have Lawful combat (outside the War system). If you don't have a non-lethal option you can't have Neutral combat. This means the only "meaningful" combat is to the death, and that cheapens all other kinds or makes them absolutely meaningless (which means no one is going to really do them).


I will argue point #3, PvP is It is a resource-drain with no reward (to the game economy as a whole). PvP invariably means the loss of resources in the whole system. Items are destroyed or damage, consumables expended, and so on. One side or the other may come out head in the resource loss (by taking whats left of the other side stuff), they may even 'personally' profit, but at the end the totality is a loss.

That is a money-sink. You can't put Coin into PFO by PvP. You can only shift it and remove it. It is also high risk (lose most of your stuff) high reward (get most of theirs, less damage/expendables). It is entirely possible to scale this back just like there are gradients to the 'openness' of PvP. The less risk, the less reward.

Resource loss is a side issue, much like gambling. If you sit down to play cards you can play for different stakes, high (like world tournament of poker), low (hundreds of dollars instead of thousands), virtually none ( a few bucks between friends). Unless you're the winner, you lose all. How much you win and how much you lose depends on the initial stakes.

Now to the cards analogy throw in that every game played X% of the total pot is taken by... lets call it the house, and removed forever from play. It's a bit better in a game like PFO because resource loss in low/no stakes combat can be lessened as well, for example not expending healing potions, buff items, or expensive spell components.

Risk/Reward & Cost/Profit

It doesn't have to a one size fits all number when it comes to PvP. It sure isn't one size when it comes to PvE (mining, dungeons, etc.) risk/reward. Why are the best resources out in free for all PvP lands and not in the 'safer' starting areas? Because the risk is higher there, both from better Players and from more powerful AI-monsters.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

ZenPagan wrote:

@ Lord Daeron : While I am aware I can still do the PVP and the alignement shift that is not what worries me. It is the fact that I am being flagged via the anti griefing mechanism at all and therefore presumably could be judged a griefer by a gm and have my account shut down.

I currently play Eve and although I doubt anyone there would accuse me of being a griefer I find legitimate actions I would make as a player get trapped by there much more limited anti griefing mechanism to the point where I am not allowed to defend myself against someone I know is about to suicide gank me. My worry is that this game is going to end up even more restrictive of legitimate player actions in the name of anti griefing

Agreed, proactive self defense is not possible in EVE.

Likewise the complexity of the flagging system deters people from assisting people being attacked. Classic case in EVE is Can-Flipping (or 'stealing' to get flagged as 'criminal' to goad another player into attacking). In this situation the aggrieved party cannot be directly assisted by a 3rd party. A 3rd party could jump in with non-attack support (such as healing/repairs). This in turn opens the healer up as a legit target to be attacked, and if it is, can then shoot back.

What this prevents is any meaningful combat on the Good end of the spectrum where people can come to the aid of say, an unaligned merchant being attacked by bandits (a common thematic element in fantasy worlds). This could be left to PvE but that doesn't build a player driven response system to acts of banditry.

A small point however, in EVE the penalty for death can be minimized quite heavily which makes suicided ganking worth the trouble. It is suicided because they get killed by the NPC response force while a buddy darts in scoops up the loot. One way to deal with that would be to 'lock' the corps if the 'marshals' show up and kill the ganker. In game this would be the equivalent of the marshals taking the body (and stuff) back to HQ for retrieval by family/friends/the-person-killed. They're not going to let some pick-pockets run up to the crops after the fact.

This is mostly directed at the 'safer' High-Sec end of EVE space. In Low-Sec, where NPC guards don't respond things get more open. Risk/Reward. Although the flagging system and Standing hits for getting into combat still happen. Used to be a part of a Low/Null-Sec patrol alliance that would regularly sweep NPC controlled territory along a particular corridor to keep try an keep trade flowing up and down. In PFO this could very well be a 'Good' group but will slowly get Evil hits for engaging and driving off the 'Evil' bandits.

It all goes back to IMO the Kill vs Subdue issue. Initiating combat being Chaotic I can get behind, especially without a set of formalized system (see dueling). However PFO currently doesn't have a system of combat without death in the plotting.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Milo Goodfellow wrote:

I think he said attacking someone and getting the attacker flag moves you to chaotic, killing them is the evil part. So a CG character would be ok with starting the fight, it is just the "finishing" it that becomes the issue. I would LOVE for there to be some mechanic in-game where good character (or people who just rather not kill all the time) to knock out someone or otherwise just subdue them. That way, it isn't killing them and we don't get the evil for it, but we still "defeat them" and get the satisfation and MAYBE limited loot from it. Not sure exactly, it is just an idea, but there it is. I think someone had asked about this before.

What do we think? would this help those good people trying to stay good? Even being evil, expecially if I go lawful, I might have use for a knock out technique here and there.

I was thinking the same thing as I was reading the article. A very underplayed aspect of the pen and paper game is the use of non-lethal damage to knock out instead of outright kill foes.

Currently in most open PvP games there is no real distinction between 'good' PvP and 'bad' PvP. A bystander who jumps into a furball on behalf of the defender gets slapped almost as hard as the original atttacker. The down side is I see Chaotic 'good' griefers who just about assaulting and knocking people out (looting or no looting). Provided there is still some kind of alignment shift based on who you attack it could work out.

Chaotic Netural then becomes the home of the aggravatingly unpredictable, but said player isn't as likely to kill you dead and take every last bit of loot off your body, maybe just your pocket change and any lose items. This makes it distinct from Chatoic Evil and not just a way station along the path.

I would not call these 'personalized' figures. That makes it sound like another one of many 3-D printing endeavors, which it isn't. Instead this is a 1-inch wide dual-sided LCD screen for displaying images. I'd put it more kin to a digital cardboard stand miniatures.

Cool idea, but kinda this almost feels like it'd have a better run using E Ink's color e-ink technology. Static, low-power image display is exactly what e-ink was built for.

I still can't help but feel this is still a few years to early. Then again someone's got to push the market. Based on the kick starter is seems like he's looking to sell them at about $15 dollars each and 4 hours of active play time. It's got promise, and as NFC/Bluetooth controller chip prices drop it defiantly has room to grown in interactivity with the play surfaces (already you could make a base that interacts with capacitive touch screens).

brock, no the other one... wrote:

Let me second (or third) this, especially for the feature that allows you to set up crops for a document. So you can chop the PDF down to just the part of the page that contains the text. This, on my iPad, makes the PDFs as legible as reading them in print.


Especially for the non-distructive cropping. But so many other things.

On Android a quick search brings up ezPDF Reader which seems to have similar cropping feature. If its good for fitting legal documents to size it should be good for RPG products.

So I wasn't just being uncaring of what Wizards was up to and this was really recent. Oh happy day... and I think my entreatment budget just cried out in terror. To bad they selection is still so small. Lots stuff I'd like see get put up if they could.

Like the old Aleternity books. I was actually talking myself into getting them all digitally back in '09 when they shuttered the PDF sales.

The Complete Book of Villains (2e) is also on my "wish" list for a digital copy. One of those books that remains viable, especially for new GMs across editions.

Jam412 wrote:
Did WotC ever get its VTT up and running? I remember watching a demo for it in the early days of 4E and thought it looked really cool. I don't recall hearing much since though.

No, they got into a 'beta' for their D&D Insiders which was more like a rough alpha. Wizards has had a bad track record of backing the wrong technology and picking Silverlight(virtually no mobile support) was no different this time. They finally canned it back in July last year due to "lack of interest".

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Dundjinni is one I used to use.

I use Inkscape and Gimp now.

I would be careful about Dundjinni though. No one is minding the store, the original programmer has been in and out of contact over the last few years so It's a bit of a dodgy thing. I wish this wasn't the case because it really was a good program and much promise going forward.

Like Adamantine Dragon I've had to move on to other options. Currently I'm using a mix of vector drawing programs. TouchDraw and iDraw (both iPad), Artboard (Mac), even dabbled in using Sketchup. The big advantage of Sketchup is that it can be used render full 3D environments to scale and it's learning curve is actually fairly gentle for basic drafting. Make sure you grab the download under the Pro, there is a free version.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Then ban them, that's a moderation mechanic of the game's meta. Simple as that. Account, credit card, and IP if need be. Outright remove such players from the pool entirely. Rarely is such meta play anything other then another tool for griefing.

I would challenge the Devs to look at actual ways to support in-game spying as part of their 'next gen' efforts.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Blaeringr wrote:
Sounds like he prefers scripted, AI guided evil. Real intelligence behind your opponents is too much for some people.

No, I got tired of EVEs general b+@*!**@ making it impossible to form impromptu groups. Which is why I don't play EVE anymore. Forgetting that EVE does't have "Good and Evil" outside the Concord rating (which doesn't mean much) just about anyone can be an Alt ready to betray everyone at the drop of a hat.

I seriously hope the Devs and Mods of PFO crack down hard on those kinds of Meta-games.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Jiminy wrote:

So you want people to be evil/villains/miscreants, but have giant flags above their heads stating as much and allow anyone to take actions aagainst them with minimal repercussions?

So basically, no mysterious shadowy figure working in the background. No elusive thief that poses as an innocent crafter, no spies or undercover agents in organisations/guilds/kindoms, no subterfuge or backstabbing politicians working their way up. Everyone needs a flag to make things black or white.

Sounds very boring.

We may as well all just play LG or CE fighters and line up in trenches and have a go at one another.

Yep, or at least have those giant alignment flags as detectible as they are in P&P (by spells) because otherwise you get meta like EVEs where convoluted Out-of-Game spying using shell characters is a common and accepted practice. Doing what has no equivalent in-game mechanic that can be "fought" against.

I am 100% against the use of this kind of Meta-Knowledge for intentional tactical gain. If someone wants to be a shadowy spy infiltrating the opposite organization, make that a skill and make a counter for it. Or are you afraid to play a spy in such a system where your toons true nature could be discovered with appropriate resources.

Use in-game methods to hide what the character is so in-game methods can be used to discover it. Don't bull s#&~ the system by creating a 100% Good aligned character as the spy plant for your Evil one. That is hard core cheating and abuse of the system. Ditto goes for the other way around, Evil flagged alts spying for "Good" mains.

There will be more then enough action without Meta game b*+@%#!+ creating an atmosphere of inherent mistrust.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Actually I suspect the Tarrasque, and invading hordes of savage humanoids, are the kind of "Monster" events the Devs were looking at running every so often.

Constant PvP can help drive a story, but so can slightly randomized PvE. The Environment shouldn't just go away because people are fighting. Wandering Monsters are a classic P&P staple. Corrupted Blood may be going over the top into Griefable territory but thats an example of non-monster PvE making things different from what's expected.

The point is to add a bit of chaos where it otherwise may not exists. EVE gate camping fleets are basically scripted, down the minium number and types of ships needed to setup and maintaining a lockdown on a low sec gate (including dealing with NPC gate guns). They only have to worry about an opposing Player fleet of greater size/ability coming to attack them. If they also had to worry about getting jumped by a totally random Concord (space police) or NPC pirate group passing through (with randomized ship types/strengths) it would very much change the meta. Same thing goes with mining in EVE, the NPC "spawns" that show up are very predictable and can be planed for.

Predicable systems are boring systems, which is why the concept of Open PvP worlds exist and not just PvE theme parks, players/humans are innately forces of chaos on an ordered system, which makes the game world more unpredictable, which makes it an going challenge.

I guess I'm saying at minimum don't forget the Wandering Monsters. This is a living fantasy world full of fantasy creatures. They aren't all going to stand around in little clumps next to resources scratching their butts waiting to get jumped.

Simple d20 game mechanic on perception. A battle (and by battle that would be assuming about 8 participants) has a -10 to the Perception DC. Every 10 feet adds +1. A full on fight can be heard 100 feet away without even trying (DC 0). A typical unskilled 1st level goblin warrior will likely have a 50% change at 200 feet. Animals (which are often default trained in perception and base 12 wisdom) will have at minimum +5, which means a total 100% chance at 150 feet, 50% at 250 feet. As you get tougher and tougher animals and monsters that radius only increases. Many monsters are known for not carrying about danger and will virtually always move toward noises.

The difference between just walking and a battle comes out to 200 feet worth of sound in the P&P game. So a group of basic goblins that wouldn't have even noticed you suddenly get a 50% change (per goblin) to now notice the fight and decide if they want to come over and find out what's up.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I'm just going to say it. I hope you (or I hope the hypnotical you, assuming your just playing devils advocate here) and people like you get caught in the Devs multi-layer Griefing defenses and perma-banned. We don't need EVE Fantasy, not with it's f***** meta of backstabbing, two-facing, and general constant treachery.

Either play Evil like this all points toward or go play another game.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Being wrote:

So what is your hurry anyway?

The LOOTZ MAN! Gotta go fast to beat everyone else to those choice resources on the perimeter of 'civilization'. Gotta beat the daily respawn rush! Also can't keep my bros waiting cause the found a sweet dungeon with more fat loots on the opposite side of the map.


Coming from EVE where the only true "fast" travel was:

1) Get a faster warping ship (i.e. carry less stuff and learn to run faster)
2) Plot a shorter number of jumps and take risks by cuttitng through low & null sec space
3) Learn how to use a Jump Drive freighter or other Capital ship
4) Jump Bridge, like Jump Drive but on some sub-captial ships and can 'fling' non-jump drive ships of certain types.

Jump Drives being like Teleport of EVE, only you had land in LowSec (PvP open) space so ya had to have some friends on the other end spotting of trouble. Even then sometimes it took several "teleports" to go from one end of EVE to the other.

I never really saw people comparing that it took too long. The system they did have was an auto-pilot. Set it let it auto move you through High-Sec (safer) space, go take a bio (food, water, exercise, bathroom) break, come back and be where you needed to be.

That explained, "Faster" travel or automated travel would both be useful in the longer term. I'm less keen on the Devs stance on being attachable while in effectively Auto-Travel... it can and does happen in EVE but it often takes a specialized suicide ship(s plural when it came to dragging down larger freighter and battle ships classes) willing to get blown up by the Space Police to do it. Most of the time is was a fairly safe thing to set the auto-pilot when going form one side of EVE to the other and then just go AFK for a bit.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I'm still waiting for a PvP sporting game that throws PvE on top in the middle of PvP just to f*** with everyone. Like you got two sides in the middle of a battle when a marauding giant comes-a-galumping through and starts smacking anyone within range. Maybe that'll be PFO eventually.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Oh it will. If it can avoid some of the backstabbery BS and innate (almost encouraged) griefing that plagues EVE, it will. Since the Devs are going to take a hard stand on griefing from the start they're already one=upping EVE in my book.

Deadspace a.k.a player spawned instances for NPC quest dungeons.

How to do Probing in EVE, or how to find people in Deadspaces and warp/travel to them. Useful in Low Sec (full PvP space) for actually hunting mission runners. Or in High Sec for finding a "dungeon" that is being run and "looting/stealing" all the stuff they've left on the bodies.

How EVE NPC missions/quests work for people who've never played EVE.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

More reasons for pets:

Any class in the P&P game can buy Guard Dogs, Hunting Dogs, Hawks, etc and train them. There is even a skill for it (for those who don't P&P), Handle Animal. No reason it can't be true in PFO. A Fighter with a pack of Hunting Dogs.

• It is definitely part of 4 out the 12 classes (Wizard, Druid, Ranger, Sorcerer), plus any class that Summons (which is just about every caster class)

• Depending on how the searching for Instance dungeons and other 'hidden' sites works, "Pets" can work as the equivalent to EVE probes to augment the search.

• It lays the ground for commanding humanoid NPC AI when it comes to War Time, and Monster Event time. The Monster Actors (players picked by GW) need some way of influencing their AI minions.

• It adds to the economy. The buying, selling, raising, and training for "pets", plus equipment and "pet" focused consumables almost double the number of craft-able things in the market.

The "pet" or in other words subordinate AI, is so critical it shouldn't have even been on the poll to begin with. This is the kind of sub-system that makes a game stand out from others. Especially little theme-park junk like WoW's mobile stuffed animals.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Tyncale, seriously go look at how EVE handles this. EVE is hardly empty because of their PvE "space dungeon" raiding. My only major gripe about EVE PvE is that it was really hard to from impromptu groups due to Trust issues, which was due to EVEs setting and meta. Everything else can work in context of PFO. It was just the Trust issue of not knowing if a player/character was a plant that was out to backstab and assist in griefing that made it inferior.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

EVE also used semi-instansed temporary dungeons for player PvE missions. The reason for the semi is that they could still be found by other people who had the right skills and equipment to "scan" for other ships and ship wreckage. Which were the same skills needed to find randomly occurring non-Player generated areas of interest, which includes things like gas clouds and other high value resource.

In PFO I could see this being some offshoot of the Surveil Skills, and another big reason why I want PETS! Hawks and other birds or even land based animals could easily substitute for EVE Probes when it comes to 'searching' an area for hidden things.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Rainwhisper wrote:
Dorje Sylas wrote:
...provided you were willing to step outside the save "non-conflict" shell of a typical carebare play style.

I think, ultimately, I am not.

(I'm also concerned, based on past experiences, that players are not capable of creating engaging content that would draw me into a persistent world.)

And if you were randomly attacked by an AI wandering monster above your level instead of a player, would that be any better. Keeping in mind that areas your more likely to get attacked are also a higher reward (for your risk). Because in the end thats what open PvP is, a smarter wandering monster guarding the most valuable goodies.

By stepping outside the comfort zone I mean that you should be prepared to die. It is going to happen, be it from the AI or more likely at the hands of a player. If you can't get your head around occasional death then this game will never be for you, nor any open world game. Even in Minecraft on a non-PvP server you will die. Once you get over the fear of death and a bit of loss (as the trade-off for higher profit) then you are 90% of the way the way to being a Carebear in a PvP world. The other 10% is learning where the safer spots are.

You likely wont take me at my word but I was and am a carebear player. I generally don't like PvP when possible. Save for specific chosen instances. I was more then happy to do simple mission running until had built up a sufficient cushion of cash and gear. I then went out into the higher risk/higher reward spaces where PvP was less controlled.

I also used to be a mining boss in EVE, running crews of 12+ ships in belt mining, both safe and un-safe space. The important thing to be clear on is that you should not be alone. Most of the time I was doing missions or mining i was in a group of at least 3 or more. In low-sec (full PvP) mining we would also run with a small squad of PvPers for defense. We would also check local intel for troublemakers, keep an eye the region, and be ready to ditch if things started looking bad.

And that was EVE, which is way more PvP happy then I read the PFO devs want to go. More people doing PvP just to mess with people. If PFO is EVEs level of "meaningless" PvP it'll be fine, and if the devs can pull off their magic to make it less it will be glorious.

The last note and the important one, you should not be playing alone. Be it mining, exploring, dungeon delving, you should be in a group. EVEs failing for carebears was that it was very hard to find pickup groups. EVEs meta was so dark and the rater lax attitude toward griefing made it almost impossible to TRUST another player. This is where I hope very much GW can best EVE. If i want to carebear Good then I'm going to trust the Devs to have a system to insure other people with a Good tag are people I can trust.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Kingmaker's Player's Guide. This is the guide book Game Masters were to give to any player joining a game running the Kingmaker Adventure Path. Set in the northern part of the River Kingdoms on the board between it and another nation, Kingmaker follows the efforts of group PCs to claim, hold, and eventually beat back all comers to their kingdom.

This kingdom building is very much at the heart of what PFO is going to do, and is also a hallmark of the River Kingdoms itself.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Rainwhisper wrote:
I was just about to back the Kickstarter, then I saw the open-world PvP...lost all interest at that moment.

Open PvP in PFO hopefully won't be the serious cluster grope it is in EVE. Then again the difference there is GoblinWorks stance out the gate to counter griefing instead of tastily encouraging it. I'm a PvE carebare in my heart of hearts, however after spending time in EVE I'm quite open to a more managed Open PvP situation.

Most of the time in EVE, PvP was actually quite limited if you:
1) Flew smart and paid attention
2) Stayed to 'secure' areas
3) Didn't respond to provocations from griefers and "loot stealers"

With an anti-greifing stance going in PFO seem like it will be much enjoyable for the Open PvP then not. As a carebare I really do (and put money down on) GW getting that part of "meaningful" PvP working. The chaos of conflict in EVE was almost always entertaining, if sometimes aggravating provided you were willing to step outside the save "non-conflict" shell of a typical carebare play style.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Well we could side slip to until the KS backers finish crawling over Paizo. I wonder what % of the backers haven't ever actually played Pathfinder or D&D before.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Or combinations there of...

Meritocracy combined with Democracy gets you various kinds of Oligarchy, depending on criteria. You can even cover Magocracy and to a degree Theocracy (if divine favor becomes a trackable stat :P)

Other conditionals could include:

Task based requirements (pulling swords from stones).

Prophecy (a player generated set of complex conditions, based on time/day, events, actions, and skills/talents)

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Chiassa wrote:

$80K to go!

Come on... mama wants a new MMO!

Oh we're getting it one way or another. This is for "mama wants her MMO sooner and better"... which in a different context could quite the euphemisms.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Mine all mine...don't touch wrote:

@ Ryan

Ramen noodle never hurt anybody.

You can do amazing things with ramen noodles if you're willing to be creative and add other low cost ingredients. Costco bulk buying also helps. :P

Which reminds me, lunch time. *goes to put a pot of noodles on*

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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1,5MM, would that be million? Cause if that's 1.5 million and they even just drop in a buck that's the stretch goal and beyond.

If that happened I think Doug's wife should get a Social Networker's like 200 ft. tall solid mithril statue that can be seen for hexes.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Seen this happen in EVE more often then not. People drifting off because of either absentee or ineffective leadership.

However I guess it depends on how the settlement was created. In EVE a corp could give out shares and give share holders voting rights, which included removing and replacing CEOs and other officers if needed.

While I don't think a Vote is appropriate for all settlements, I think for ones that feel they want to be major players or have some way to pass down leaderships if a leader disappears (Real Life happens) it would be appropriate to have some optional mechanic for challenge and replacing current leadership.

Voting can be very Lawful, while a direct Challenge or Dual can be very Chaotic. Votes that are stacked toward certain elite cabals can be very Evil, while free and even voting can be very Good. Duals involving skills other then combat can be very Good, while duals to the death&explosion are a hallmark of CE groups.


As a far reaching Meta fix, players in a group with a leader who's just *poofed* into nothing could have recourse through GoblinWords admins. That could be for people who've just out right vanish and not be on for months, or even have stopped paying for their account all together.

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