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APG Page 23.
Human Favored Class Option for the Rogue
What does this mean?
"Rogue: The human gains +1/6 of a new rogue talent."
It's worded a little awkwardly, but it's exactly the same as all the other fractional favored class benefits. Every sixth time you select that favored class benefit, you get an additional rogue talent.
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It means that if you take it for 6 levels, you get a new rogue talent. You only get the bonus when the fraction becomes a whole number, and the same goes for all of the other favored class bonuses
EDIT: Ninja'd. Damn you, Zurai!
EDIT EDIT: By the way, I also believe that this favored class bonus hurts a lot more than it should, because if you choose it you're not seeing any benefit for a whole 5 levels. If you make a level 6 rogue to start the campaign with, however, it might be decent to take.
A new rogue talent once every 6 levels.
Here's an example with a Human that has Rogue as its favored class:
Level 1: Rogue; +1 Hit Point
Level 2: Fighter: (Not a favored class)
Level 3: Rogue; +1/6 Rogue Talent (@ 1/6)
Level 4: Rogue; +1/6 Rogue Talent (@ 2/6)
Level 5: Rogue; +1 Hit Point
Level 6: Fighter; (Not a favored class)
Level 7: Rogue; +1/6 Rogue Talent (@ 3/6)
Level 8: Rogue; +1/6 Rogue Talent (@ 4/6)
Level 9: Rogue; +1/6 Rogue Talent (@ 5/6)
Level 10: Rogue; +1/6 Rogue Talent (@ 6/6)
Level 11: Rogue; +1/6 Rogue Talent (@ 1/6)
Notice at level 10 in the above example is when you get your bonus Rogue talent, not ever 6 levels of Rogue because in the above example at level 1 and level 5 we choose +1 Hit Point. Then at level 11 it resets and starts over until you get a full 6 again.
This really make Half-elves more valuable when making multi-class characters :-)
APG Page 23.
Human Favored Class Option for the Rogue
What does this mean?
"Rogue: The human gains +1/6 of a new rogue talent."
It means that Humans are 1/6th better at gaining rogue talents than other races.
What? Who are you going to believe? Me or those other guys?
My question about this is does it have to be from the regular list of talents? or can it be an advanced talent once the rogue is high enough leveled? if so trading in 6 levels of +1 HP for the talent that lets you pick a feat, then picking toughness...
My question about this is does it have to be from the regular list of talents? or can it be an advanced talent once the rogue is high enough leveled? if so trading in 6 levels of +1 HP for the talent that lets you pick a feat, then picking toughness...
You know I believe you could take from the advanced rogue talents, but I think you must be at the sufficient level when you can start gaining advanced rogue talents, so you can't gain the an advanced talent early but you can gain an extra one in this way.
You know I believe you could take from the advanced rogue talents, but I think you must be at the sufficient level when you can start gaining advanced rogue talents, so you can't gain the an advanced talent early but you can gain an extra one in this way.
That was my thought due to the wording of the advanced talents that starting at 10th level you could begin putting that 1/6th toward an advanced talent instead of a regular talent. If you don't have any other plans or need for an extra feat toughness might be a good choice for the squishy rogue. Though with all the new goodies in the APG I certainly think that you should have some better choices than getting an additional 16 HP.
You know I believe you could take from the advanced rogue talents, but I think you must be at the sufficient level when you can start gaining advanced rogue talents, so you can't gain the an advanced talent early but you can gain an extra one in this way.That was my thought due to the wording of the advanced talents that starting at 10th level you could begin putting that 1/6th toward an advanced talent instead of a regular talent. If you don't have any other plans or need for an extra feat toughness might be a good choice for the squishy rogue. Though with all the new goodies in the APG I certainly think that you should have some better choices than getting an additional 16 HP.
Well having low HP on a rogue doesn't always make a character squishy because rogue's are not tanks, they are evaders and making attacks hurt so they tend to get in and get out.
I think that this could be very viable thing to take if you plan it right with the correct build. Personally I would only use this for the advanced talents so starting at level 4 is a good time to start taking the 1/6 of a rogue talent so by level 10 you get two advanced talents.
You know to bad there is no 1/6 extra feat for a favored class.
I would say it allows a rogue to get a total of three extra talents over 18 levels. You could take any talent you meet the prereq's for. So if you started taking them at level One you would get a talent at level 6. At level 12 and 18 you could take either a normal talent or an advanced talent.
I would say it allows a rogue to get a total of three extra talents over 18 levels. You could take any talent you meet the prereq's for. So if you started taking them at level One you would get a talent at level 6. At level 12 and 18 you could take either a normal talent or an advanced talent.
Nerco-ing this as I can't find a recent post, or if someone can point me to an official post, I'd really appreciate it.
Can you select a FCB for an ability that you have not gained yet, say at first level for +1/6 human rogue FCB to gain a rogue talent?
Can you select a FCB for an ability that you have not gained yet, say at first level for +1/6 human rogue FCB to gain a rogue talent?You cannot. So...you can get your first extra Talent at level 7.
I disagree with this. I see nothing that states you cannot take the fractional favored class bonus prior to gaining the class ability it affects. In fact, the example given in the Racial Favored Classes section of the Advanced Race Guide exhibits the opposite:
For example, a dwarf with rogue as his favored class adds +1/2 to his trap sense ability regarding stone traps each time he selects the alternate rogue favored class benefit; though this means the net effect is +0 after selecting it once (because +1/2 rounds down to +0), after 20 levels this benefit gives the dwarf a +10 bonus to his trap sense (in addition to the base value from being a 20th-level rogue).
In this example, the +10 bonus at 20 implies that it was taken at every level, even though Trap Sense is not a class ability until 3rd level.
Thanks for the great example!
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I agree that you can take this FCB at level 1. I think you're restricted from taking a bonus to an ability you don't have - if there were a FCB that increased your effective rogue level for using a talent, you'd have to actually have the talent before you could select it.
But this FCB simply grants you a thing directly, it doesn't depend on having it in the first place. Theoretically you could take it even if using a rogue archetype that never gets rogue talents.
I agree that you can take this FCB at level 1. I think you're restricted from taking a bonus to an ability you don't have - if there were a FCB that increased your effective rogue level for using a talent, you'd have to actually have the talent before you could select it.
But this FCB simply grants you a thing directly, it doesn't depend on having it in the first place. Theoretically you could take it even if using a rogue archetype that never gets rogue talents.
It may sound logical, but I am having difficulty finding any source or FAQs that suggest that you can't.
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While this is in the PFS section, it was clarified with the design team.
Related Point: Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.
This isn’t actually a new rule. It’s just a clarification that I confirmed with the design team because it seemed that some folks were assuming otherwise.
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If we did a FAQ, it'd be possible to separate out gaining a fraction of a new thing you don't have any of yet from modifying something you don't have.
For instance, with this hypothetical FAQ, gaining 1/6th of a revelation and then using that to at level 7 pick up a revelation that requires level 7 would be fine, but giving yourself bonuses preemptively with the revelation you don't have yet wouldn't.
The 1/6 of a rogue talent FCB isn't increasing the effective level of any ability. It is giving a bonus rogue talent after taking it six times.
If we did a FAQ, it'd be possible to separate out gaining a fraction of a new thing you don't have any of yet from modifying something you don't have.
For instance, with this hypothetical FAQ, gaining 1/6th of a revelation and then using that to at level 7 pick up a revelation that requires level 7 would be fine, but giving yourself bonuses preemptively with the revelation you don't have yet wouldn't.
From my understanding of both of your posts, it seems to imply that you can start taking the FCB as long as when you fulfill the full fraction, it must align at the level at which you gained the ability, am I right?
E.g. Human barbarian +1/3 to bonus of superstitious rage power can be picked at level 2 if you intend to pick up the rage power at lv 4
The way I would handle it is thus:
Static bonus to ability scores that you do not possess yet do nothing until you possess the ability in question. Ex. Dwarven bonus to trap sense 'kicks in' at level 3, when the rogue gets trap sense.
Gain 1/x class ability, you gain an extra instance of that class ability the moment you have taken enough to qualify for it. 6/6, 5/5, etc, etc.
Wish they FAQ this soon =\
Just keep things simple. FCB's are so minor they aren't going to break anything. If a Dwarf Rogue wants to spend his FCB's on stone based trapfinding, let him. The +1 bonus will be there at level 2, but will be a bonus to something he doesn't have - so it has no effect. At level 3, though, when he gets trap finding, he's so good at looking at stonework, he gets that +1 from that point on. At level 4, he can get a +2 to the trap finding.
I don't see how this is breaking any written rules, or breaking any game balance. And it just makes things simpler.
The human rogue gaining the extra talent at level 6 from spending all his FCB's up to that point is also no problem in my eyes. There are no written prerequisites in the Racial Favored Class Bonus ruleset at all. Why needlessly inject them in there?
But what about the oracle favored class bonus ruling?
As it's a PFS only ruling (it's not errata'd or FAQ'd), I'll choose my reading that makes sense to me. If someone is going to follow that, then retrain your oracle levels to oracle levels after you get the revelation THEN use your FCB for it. As per the retraining feats FAQ you only have to meet prerequisites you qualify for NOW not when you got the feat. It should work that way for FCB.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gn
And, the ruling is not a PFS ruling, it is a official Pathfinder ruling, as it says in the post.
Posts in the forum are unofficial. That's a rule. There is NO FAQ or errata to back up that post. So, yes it's a PFS only ruling. For it to be an official "clarification", it's need an associated FAQ to point it out.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland's post clarifying that thread posts are NOT "official rulings". http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2prmb&page=3?Vital-Strike#102
Wait, where does it state u can get a fcb at level 1? The dwarf and human fraction makes sense if u started taking fcb at level 2 because at level 2 by taking them, the dearf would have a bonus to the ability and have the ability to use at lvl3 and since rogies get their talents at lvl 7, a free one would come into play if u do it at lvl 2 as well.
Anyone got a sourse that u can take fcb at level 1 by chance, because i thought it was taken when u leveled up.
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The official ruling is the FAQ on not having a feature until you have it. This just clarifies that this applies to FCBs.
That is how I understood this thread. It is also how I read the rules before this thread was public.
Now that being said, I don't understand why the +1/6 things work to get an extra thing of something before I have that something. The part described later.
Except when there is an additional addendum saying it is official. Basically, dev posts are not RAW, unless they say they are, and this one does. To be honest, it actually says they aren't making a ruling, just explaining how the rules actually work. The official ruling is the FAQ on not having a feature until you have it. This just clarifies that this applies to FCBs.And, the ruling is not a PFS ruling, it is a official Pathfinder ruling, as it says in the post.Posts in the forum are unofficial. That's a rule. There is NO FAQ or errata to back up that post. So, yes it's a PFS only ruling. For it to be an official "clarification", it's need an associated FAQ to point it out.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland's post clarifying that thread posts are NOT "official rulings". http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2prmb&page=3?Vital-Strike#102
The only issue is that a clarification IS an FAQ. As noted in the post from Stephen, "Second, it does not force anyone playing the game to participate in or wade through message board threads (some of which can be a thousand or more posts long) in order to find official rulings." Having a rule someplace other than the FAQ's or errata goes against this. Second, he does NOT say it's official, just that he talked to the team. Said team never made an official comment. So it's mighty fine RAI but not RAW. You can't expect a post in the PFS section to be an actual official rule for normal pathfinder.
The only thing that's clear is that it's a rule for PFS. Do you have a link to the FAQ you are talking about? A don't recall any FAQ about partial abilities counting as the finished product before it's actually complete.
I can most certainly count a post in the PFS forum as official for pathfinder if the post says its official for pathfinder. Would it be better if it was put into the FAQ? Yes, but it doesn't change the fact that its an official post because it says it is an official post.
I never saw the word official. And if it did someplace, was it official PFS rule? That's something different than official pathfinder rule.
As for the FAQ, its this one:
When do I count as having a class feature?
What book? JUST the title question takes a LOT of FAQ's to go through.
I'm going to disagree with you on it's being official. At best, his comment is like saying the rule will be changed in the future. Until that times comes, it's not. HE got a clarification and HE made a ruling using it for PFS. What's missing was the clarification for us (an FAQ). Let me put this another way. This is like an almost FAQ for PFS. Would you take something from the PFS FAQ as a rule for normal pathfinder? I wouldn't.
So bottom line, I'm not going to go back and forth over it. I just can't see how this can be PFS ruling in the PFS threads is official for pathfinder as a whole.
My own thought on the FCB: Myself, I don't see fractional bonuses running afoul of the actual FAQ until it grants an actual bonus. So a +1/4 ability doesn't actually DO anything until it's taken 4 times. Until then it isn't adding to anything. It's the same way 1/6th of a feat does nothing until you actually take it 6 times. This seems to be a reasonable reading of the rules so I'd need an actual FAQ to change my mind on the RAW.
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If the APG partial FCB bonuses weren't able to be taken until you received that feature, than the example given for the dwarf would be incorrect and should state that at level 20, it would only have a +9 bonus.
If we follow that, not only does it allow partial abilities to be taken before you get the ability it modify it but you can take bonuses BEFORE you get the ability. That dwarf would have a +1 bonus to trap sense ability regarding stone traps when he doesn't get trapfinding till 3rd.
To me, it seems that the FAQ "When do I count as having a class feature?" is about when you can use that feature "as a prerequisite". The FCB though don't have prerequisites. For instance, you can take the trait Magical Knack for a class you don't have yet or Magical Lineage/Gifted Adept for a spell you don't know. You can take the feats Combat Casting or Heighten Spell without a spell or SLA. Why would FCB's be treated differently?
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If the APG partial FCB bonuses weren't able to be taken until you received that feature, than the example given for the dwarf would be incorrect and should state that at level 20, it would only have a +9 bonus.
And that is different from many other examples and samples that are, also, incorrect, or should be changed to correspond with a clarification that the person writing the example did not think of?
@graystone: For your home game, do it how you wish, or your GM says it works, but be aware that you have the left the door open to the insanity that is an Elf or Aasimar Oracle with +10 to his effective level for one of his Revelations. Make it the exampled Oracle with an animal companion, take Boon Companion if it wasn't already set to Druid level is Oracle Level, and you wind up with an AC who will be a 30th level AC when the Oracle reaches 20th level. And would be a 20th level AC when the Oracle reaches 14th level.
ACs, at level, tend to be a pain. Make them higher level, and the party can, essentially, stand back, healing the AC, and play poker.
If the APG partial FCB bonuses weren't able to be taken until you received that feature, than the example given for the dwarf would be incorrect and should state that at level 20, it would only have a +9 bonus.And that is different from many other examples and samples that are, also, incorrect, or should be changed to correspond with a clarification that the person writing the example did not think of?
@graystone: For your home game, do it how you wish, or your GM says it works, but be aware that you have the left the door open to the insanity that is an Elf or Aasimar Oracle with +10 to his effective level for one of his Revelations. Make it the exampled Oracle with an animal companion, take Boon Companion if it wasn't already set to Druid level is Oracle Level, and you wind up with an AC who will be a 30th level AC when the Oracle reaches 20th level. And would be a 20th level AC when the Oracle reaches 14th level.
ACs, at level, tend to be a pain. Make them higher level, and the party can, essentially, stand back, healing the AC, and play poker.
Ah... You can pick a animal companion with an oracle at 1st. How does any of this affect that? Lunar, Primal Companion, tiger. Takes the nifty FCB EVERY level even if the PFS clarification is in force.
As to "for my home game", I've already stated why I don't find the PFS restriction binding outside of PFS. If it's an problem with AC's and the FCB, it's outside this issue.
If the APG partial FCB bonuses weren't able to be taken until you received that feature, than the example given for the dwarf would be incorrect and should state that at level 20, it would only have a +9 bonus.
Yes and no, the bonus to disable device checks they gain is totally fine and plays off of trapfinding, which rogues get at first level. They really should have made it an OR clause instead of an AND clause joining the two, then everything would have been fine.
If the APG partial FCB bonuses weren't able to be taken until you received that feature, than the example given for the dwarf would be incorrect and should state that at level 20, it would only have a +9 bonus.Yes and no, the bonus to disable device checks they gain is totally fine and plays off of trapfinding, which rogues get at first level. They really should have made it an OR clause instead of an AND clause joining the two, then everything would have been fine.
The gain is not to trapfinding but trap sense which is gained at lv3.