Now with the advent of archtypes and classes galore there is some classes that have fallen on the wayside and mostly become obsolete with a few exceptions: the Prestige classes.
So the question is: What are the exception to the "bad" which is prestige classes?
My personal favorite have to be the Winter Witch and the Evangelist prestige classes due to their inherent ability to progress their previous class. ( Winter Witch continue to get their Hexes and Spells at a reasonable rate, while Evangelist only lose out on a single level while gaining all the features of their parent class among with some goodies.)
And i guess the Dragon Disciple is still pretty awesome.
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Honestly, I still thoroughly enjoy and build towards Prestige Classes. I generally prefer them to archetypes, but that is just me.
I like Living Monolith.
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Dragon Disciple is the only one I can think of that people on the message board still talk about.
I think there should be more 3-5 level prestige classes, and fewer with 10.
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Well personally i think some prestige classes just have too heavy requirements for what they actually offer as a class.
A few other prestige classes i actually looked into is the Red Mantis Assassin and the Horizon Walker, but the Red Mantis is purely for the theme of it and not as much for its abilities, and Horizon walker i just exploit the 3 lvl dip to get dimension door for the dimensional agility feat-line.
Suppose is the nature of pathfinder where going a solo class is so beneficial that prestige classes is just not that appealing in compairson?
Especially the caster based prestige classes where you dont want to lose that first level of spell progression.
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The problem with most PrCs is that they take too long to get to and they take too long to get the good stuff. Arcane Trickster is the biggest one that comes to mind, requiring three levels of wizard and rogue minimum meaning that it takes 9th level minimum to get its cool thing (impromptu sneak attack.) Exceptions need loose restrictions and either quick access to the good part of the class (Dragon Disciple) or only a minor impact on your base class's stuff (Evangelist)
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I am currently playing a wizard/ loremaster and finding this combo good. Of course, at base I am playing a wizard, so it is hard to go wrong.
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Despite the SLA FAQ nerf, Reach Eldritch Knight isn't totally dead (however, Rules As Written, Maneuver Mastery doesn't work due to lack of effective Magus levels for Magus Arcana Effect, because VMC Magus only gives effective Magus levels for qualifying -- therefore, you may need to pick another Magus Arcana instead -- see the following few posts). But if you get your GM to rule in your favor on this, you're good to go -- just take Transmuter instead of what is recommended in here.
And see this introductory post (race selection for the next 2 linked post) and this Transmuter-based Eldritch Knight build (uses Dual-Talent Human) and this other Transmuter-based Eldritch Knight build (uses Elf; also see next post in that thread).
For Arcane Trickster, see this thread on building a modern Arcane Trickster -- ever since Pathfinder Unchained and Dirty Tactics Toolbox came out, you can potentially make an Arcane Trickster with true full progression spellcasting, although in some cases (especially if retraining is not available) you might want 1 level of Sneak Attack class.
Arcane Archer can be good for a dip of 4 levels (only loses 1 level of spellcasting progression, and lets you Imbue Arrow with Antimagic Field -- brokenly strong, but that's the fault of the spell (as inherited all the way from 1st Edition), not the prestige class.
A few spellcasting prestige classes, such as Arclord of Nex and Magambyan Arcanist, dont interrupt spellcasting progression at all.
Martials have some options also:
Battle Herald is not too shabby, and with the advent of Pathfinder Unchained, can be done single-class (and no loss of Base Attack Bonus) until you get to the prestige class.
Halfling Opportunist starts out lacklustre, but if you go through all 5 levels and have access to Pathfinder Unchained Fractional Bonus Progression, it gets pretty good if stacked on top of a Sneak Attack class, letting you get Sneak Attack on ALL Attacks of Opportunity.
Hellknight (the martial variety, not the Signifer) is not bad.
Prestige classes do need an update though (especially those from earlier times), and one particular problem is that very few prestige classes actually work well with 6/9 and 4/9 spellcasting classes, because spellcasting progression is done as a fixed ratio of the entry class (or occasionally one of multiple entry classes), with only very rare provision for progression of class features other than spellcasting, while 6/9 and 4/9 classes are much more dependent upon class features other than spellcasting than 9/9 spellcasters.
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Sentinel of Pharsma is a strong choice if you want to fight with daggers.
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Veiled illusionist is excellent if you want a cleric with some illusions available, and is somewhat useful to some other classes.
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In general straight 1 class is probably better but prestige classes make characters more interesting and give a wide variety of special abilities to work with. I like a great deal of prestige classes especially those with easy requirements. Heck my dm has banned me from taking more than 2 :)
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* Magaambyan Arcanist
* Hellknight
* Hellknight Signifer
* Soul Warden
* Master Chymist
* Evangelist
* Exalted
* Arcane Archer
* Arcane Trickster
* Dragon Disciple
* Eldritch Knight (even better now with VMC Battle Oracle - Skill at Arms)
* Holy Vindicator
* Inheritor's Crusader
* Living Monolith
* Mammoth Rider
Those are the good ones off the top of my head. Yes, some of them require specific builds and can only be "correctly" built a couple different ways, but that's only because a PrC - by its very nature - tends to pull you in a specific direction.
Have to admit the list of useful prestige classes is a tad longer than i had the impression of at first.
A question to GMs out there: IF a prestige class require a certian "cult" or "RP-requirement" would you allow that kind of class in your own setting or "standard-fantasy" settings or do you limit these to Golarion only?
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I think PrCs can be a good tool for enriching a setting by creating a package of special skills for a certain organization/movement, that people from various classes can get into. So I think they're quite setting-bound.
That said, if the chassis or flavour of a Golarion PrC is good and a player is enthusiastic about it, we could certainly discuss ways to reskin/adjust them to fit with something in my own setting. Possibly I'd have to make up an analogous organization to the Golarion one. Won't always be practical but we can always take a look.
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Have to admit the list of useful prestige classes is a tad longer than i had the impression of at first.
A question to GMs out there: IF a prestige class require a certian "cult" or "RP-requirement" would you allow that kind of class in your own setting or "standard-fantasy" settings or do you limit these to Golarion only?
I personally dislike limiting what my players can do mechanically based upon my choice in campaign setting. That said I usually require them to devote themselves to the most similar organization/religion/etc. This is one of the areas that make house rules so great
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One core problem I think Prestige classes have is #1 you cant start at them, #2 you can only take up to 10 levels, and #3 you dont grow in most class features. Most classes are heavily dependent on their class features so youre splitting up abiltities and getting a weaker resulting fusion.
Personally I love the concept of the Mystic Theurge as a White/Black Mage with 2 schools to cast high(but not top) tier magic, but it fails as you can only get 10 levels as a prestige class, meaning you have something like tier 8 Wizard spells and tier 6 Cleric spells without armor and no strength for melee.
Dragon Disciple is still good, oddly enough more because of the Bloodrager than the Sorceror. Its because that prestige classes gives powerful PHYSICAL bonuses. a Sorcerer becomes a middling warrior/mage, but the Bloodrager gets huge bonuses. You would have to clear it with your DM to actually use.
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Even with the 1 level drop, Pathfinder Savant is still pretty good for Wizards and Clerics...
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Eventually, I will make a Lantern Bearer.
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The prestige classes that I believe to still be "good enough" include:
- Arcane Trickster became more doable with the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat.
- Champion of Irori is fairly badass. Spending Ki (which is relatively plentiful) to get additional Smite Evil is nothing to scoff at. In addition, full BAB, 4+ skill points and all good saves. Perfect Opening can be a hilarious answer to enemies that crit often. There are quite a few style feats that require crits with unarmed strikes, which are otherwise hard to get.
- Cyphermage has doable prerequisites and adds a lot of class skills for wizards. Once you've got all you wanted from your arcane school, this is a nice emeritus class.
- Dragon Disciple became quite viable for draconic bloodragers.
- Evangelist is a good option for clerics willing to trade 1 level of spellcasting for no longer being skill-starved. It's also plausible for wizards who want better skills, HP and BAB.
If your group is whining about full casters being too strong, this PrC could be a good sideways compromise. Delaying one caster level may even out the raw power, but you get breadth in return.
- Hellknights just got a new book. They were already doable, with some good disciplines and nifty features like moving at full speed in heavy armor. I'm still digesting the new material.
- Hellknight Signifer - far kinder to divine casters. Can even be done as a druid with a domain. It's not super-powerful, but depending on your build, doesn't gimp you either.
- Inheritor's Crusader - A pretty fun 3-level side trek for paladins.
- Living Monolith - swift action enlarge is quite a powerful ability for dominating the battlefield. Apart from that, decent and fun abilities and doable prerequisites.
- Magaambyan Arcanist - it's a shame there are so few [good] spells on the wizard and druid lists. But Lasting Goodness with Burst of Radiance is pretty mean. It's not very powerful, but it's still mechanically viable and very flavourful.
- Mammoth Rider - depending on how 'uge-friendly your battles are, you may be able to dominate the battlefield due to being bigger than most enemies. Surprisingly many enemies are supposed to be scary because they're bigger than the PCs...
- Pathfinder Savant - if UMD and scrolls are really your thing. I think it out-competes Mystic Theurge on power vs. flexibility. You can dip into other classes' spell lists without falling behind quite as far on your main list. In an odd campaign where you have disproportionate wealth to spend on consumables, this PrC is king.
- Shadowdancer - it all depends on how well you can weaponize the shadow. It's a great scout and lethal against enemies without magic attacks. Could be a brilliant assassin.
- Ulfen Guard - underappreciated I think. Doable entry criteria. Good class skills, BAB, HD and saves, and okay skill points. I'm currently considering the idea of getting in with unchained monk. But it's also a way for a barbarian to play a more "controlled" theme with good Will saves while progressing rage powers. And the bodyguard powers are neat. It might be cool to explore ways to team up with a teamwork PC "principal" as well.
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I currently have a character in PFS that recently became a Halfling Opportunist, but I haven't played with him yet. It takes a bit work to get going, The entrance is pretty easy to fix, you only need to be a Halfling and have a certain feat. Halfling is fine if you want to be a Rogue, and the feat is a bit of a waste, but not terrible. The fact that enemies (almost) automatically aid you on your AC against them is pretty neat, it shores up the Rogue's weak will save, and the capstone is pretty sweet if you manage to build around it. I took two levels of Slayer for a combat feat for free, martial weapon proficiency, and some BAB (maybe 1 would've been better). I took 3 levels of Unchained Rogue for DEX to damage and sneak attack. At level 10, when I've reached full Opportunist levels, I'm not missing out on BAB and only lagging behind 1d6 on sneak attack dice, which can be fixed with Accomplished Sneak Attacker or a third level of Slayer. And I bought a cracked Opalescent White Pyramid ioun stone so an Elven Branched Spear becomes a martial weapon for me, which I can wield because of the Slayer dip. And with the capstone ability, I can attack from reach, and walking to me will provoke attacks from me (I plan to take Lunge), which get sneak attacks.
It's a few hoops, but I don't think this is necessarily worse than pure Rogue.
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Has anyone tried or taken a good look at the new Lion Blade?
Now with the advent of archtypes and classes galore there is some classes that have fallen on the wayside and mostly become obsolete with a few exceptions: the Prestige classes.
So the question is: What are the exception to the "bad" which is prestige classes?
My personal favorite have to be the Winter Witch and the Evangelist prestige classes due to their inherent ability to progress their previous class. ( Winter Witch continue to get their Hexes and Spells at a reasonable rate, while Evangelist only lose out on a single level while gaining all the features of their parent class among with some goodies.)
And i guess the Dragon Disciple is still pretty awesome.
There really aren't that many PrC's which aren't viable. There are however what I think are bad entry paths... such as ...
Sorcerer/Oracle to Mystic Theurge... unless you're very content with casting a lot of low level spells.
Magus to Eldritch Knight... The intended path of Fighter/Wizard gives superior casting options. The EK path sacrifices too much of the magus options to be worth while.
Bard to Dragon Disciple. The DD is clearly meant for draconic sorcerers, it's almost an extension of that class.
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I made a Duelist coming off of a Lore Warden Fighter and have been very happy with the character. He effectively got doubly compensated for giving up shields.
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Bard to Dragon Disciple. The DD is clearly meant for draconic sorcerers, it's almost an extension of that class.
Bard to dragon disciple? I didnt think You could do that do that. Technically you can do the same with the magus. The draconic bloodline isnt a requirement UNLESS you have a Sorceror. Even more technical, you dont even need to be Draconic Bloodrager.
But really, Dragon Disciple powers are meant to synergize with the Draconic Bloodline.
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Bard to Dragon Disciple. The DD is clearly meant for draconic sorcerers, it's almost an extension of that class.
Bard to dragon disciple? I didnt think You could do that do that. Technically you can do the same with the magus. The draconic bloodline isnt a requirement UNLESS you have a Sorceror. Even more technical, you dont even need to be Draconic Bloodrager.
But really, Dragon Disciple powers are meant to synergize with the Draconic Bloodline.
The requirement is spontaneous casting, which can be done with either a bard or a certain magus archetype. The class does specify that a sorcerer must be of the draconic bloodline.
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Pain Taster is pretty awesome.
I'm a huge fan of the theme (the non good requirement is at least better than evil only).
My PFS, int dumped, Zon-Kuthon following fighter is going for it, after a few alchemist levels.
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There really aren't that many PrC's which aren't viable. There are however what I think are bad entry paths...
This is actually a pretty excellent point.
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{. . .}
There really aren't that many PrC's which aren't viable. There are however what I think are bad entry paths... such as ...Sorcerer/Oracle to Mystic Theurge... unless you're very content with casting a lot of low level spells.
{. . .}
After the SLA FAQ nerf (linked in my previous post), all entries into Mystic Theurge are bad -- that's just one of the worst ones that involves 2 9/9 spellcasters (anything less than 9/9 on either side is even worse, of course). If you manage to make it to really high levels, you can amortize the terribleness of your entry.
And as noted before, almost any combination of 4/9 or 6/9 spellcasting class entry into any prestige class that progresses spellcasting is bad, because this type of prestige class assumes that you are going to be a 9/9 spellcaster, at least for the purposes of making sure not to overpower things. (The obvious exception is Evangelist, which progresses everything with a delay of 1 level, although at the cost of a severe Divine Obedience requirement; the less-obvious exception is Inheritor's Crusader, which manages to give bonuses to Paladin abilities that are enough better for a Paladin than for a Cleric so as to compensate for the fixed progression of 4/9 instead of 9/9 spellcasting).
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After the SLA FAQ nerf (linked in my previous post), all entries into Mystic Theurge are bad -- that's just one of the worst ones that involves 2 9/9 spellcasters (anything less than 9/9 on either side is even worse, of course). If you manage to make it to really high levels, you can amortize the terribleness of your entry.
The only build I've seen that makes Mystic Theurge even remotely viable requires the Eclectic and Esoteric Training spellcasting guild perks from Inner Sea Magic to become an effective 17/17 caster at level 20 (and have access to 9th level spells from both of your classes.) But those benefits are so terribly broken in anyone else's hands that you'd have to have a *very* lenient DM to let you gain access to them (they're kinda fine for the MT, imo, but then you end up in a spot where if the MT can have them, why can't *anyone* take them?)
It's a shame. I adore the idea of the Mystic Theurge... but you're just better off going Witch, Shaman, Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle, Magaambyan Arcanist, Collegiate Initiate Arcanist, Soul Warden, etc, etc...
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^What's needed is for those perks to be made part of the Mystic Theurge class features instead of being available to any random multiclass spellcaster off the street.
Alternatively, have Mystic Theurge have its own specific override of the SLA FAQ nerf to early entry (for balance, this should probably work for arcane or divine but not both at the same time).
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^What's needed is for those perks to be made part of the Mystic Theurge class features instead of being available to any random multiclass spellcaster off the street.
That's actually pretty much what we did for our home games (though no one's bitten yet): we turned them into feats with the Combined Spells class feature as a prereq for Esoteric Training.
Prerequisites: Ability to cast spells, Knowledge (any) 3 ranks, Spellcraft 3 ranks
Benefit: Choose one spellcasting class you have at least one level in: you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by one, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice.
Esoteric Training
Prerequisites: Combined Spells class feature, Eclectic Training, Knowledge (any) 7 ranks, Spellcraft 7 ranks
Benefit: The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to three (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice).
Select a second spellcasting class you have at least one level in: you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by one, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice.
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I really like Divine Scion.
1 Level dip into Crossblooded Sorcerer (Orc/Draconic), blaster-based Oracle, then 10 Levels of Divine Scion.
Using your Draconic element, against evil creatures (or whichever alignment you choose; just, evil is common for enemies), you're doing +4 damage per die on spells. That's more powerful than if you Maximized the spell, doesn't raise the spell levels, and it stacks with Empower/Maximize.
Dual-Cursed Oracle is better, too, as you can make the enemy reroll failed saves if they're close enough.
20d6 plus the per-die bonuses, plus empowered and maximized....doing an average of 235 points of damage to many evil enemies with one spell.
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After the SLA FAQ nerf (linked in my previous post), all entries into Mystic Theurge are bad -- that's just one of the worst ones that involves 2 9/9 spellcasters (anything less than 9/9 on either side is even worse, of course). If you manage to make it to really high levels, you can amortize the terribleness of your entry.The only build I've seen that makes Mystic Theurge even remotely viable requires the Eclectic and Esoteric Training spellcasting guild perks from Inner Sea Magic to become an effective 17/17 caster at level 20 (and have access to 9th level spells from both of your classes.) But those benefits are so terribly broken in anyone else's hands that you'd have to have a *very* lenient DM to let you gain access to them (they're kinda fine for the MT, imo, but then you end up in a spot where if the MT can have them, why can't *anyone* take them?)
It's a shame. I adore the idea of the Mystic Theurge... but you're just better off going Witch, Shaman, Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle, Magaambyan Arcanist, Collegiate Initiate Arcanist, Soul Warden, etc, etc...
What exactly is your standard for "viability"? The intended entry path of wizard/cleric/druid gives you 7th level, 13th CL for two classes at level 16. I don't think being one spell level behind for two full spell classing classes, is that bad a tradeoff.
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From an optimization point of view there are very few prestige classes that help there. From a creative fun to play build prestige classes are great.
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From an optimization point of view there are very few prestige classes that help there. From a creative fun to play build prestige classes are great.
I find archetypes to be better in both areas, especially in the not needing to spend 3 feats, 14 archetypes, and flipping three times while meowing before taking the class you want area.
From an optimization point of view there are very few prestige classes that help there. From a creative fun to play build prestige classes are great.
This is by design. In 3.x there were prestige classes that were such a step up in power that if one person was using one their fellow party members almost had to in order to keep up. Pathfinder tried to make it a point to rebalance so that prestige classes were there for flavor not for power. In some cases they may have swung a little too far (where the PrC makes you weaker), but all in all I like that they're not about optimizing.
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After the SLA FAQ nerf (linked in my previous post), all entries into Mystic Theurge are bad -- that's just one of the worst ones that involves 2 9/9 spellcasters (anything less than 9/9 on either side is even worse, of course). If you manage to make it to really high levels, you can amortize the terribleness of your entry.The only build I've seen that makes Mystic Theurge even remotely viable requires the Eclectic and Esoteric Training spellcasting guild perks from Inner Sea Magic to become an effective 17/17 caster at level 20 (and have access to 9th level spells from both of your classes.) But those benefits are so terribly broken in anyone else's hands that you'd have to have a *very* lenient DM to let you gain access to them (they're kinda fine for the MT, imo, but then you end up in a spot where if the MT can have them, why can't *anyone* take them?)
It's a shame. I adore the idea of the Mystic Theurge... but you're just better off going Witch, Shaman, Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle, Magaambyan Arcanist, Collegiate Initiate Arcanist, Soul Warden, etc, etc...
Personally, mystic theurge was never bad. The early entry just made it meet everyone else's terms. But early entry versions feel too strong in the middle levels when you you were able to coordinate your casting stats. It really just needed some rearranging so that it could enter slightly less painfully and maintain it's versatility without the early level pain.
Early entry is still possible, though. It's just less obvious. Equipment Trick: Sunrod (Like the Sun). I've seen some debate around this, but it seems fairly clear to me that this should grant access. Be warned either way that there is debate regarding it.
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From an optimization point of view there are very few prestige classes that help there. From a creative fun to play build prestige classes are great.I find archetypes to be better in both areas, especially in the not needing to spend 3 feats, 14 archetypes, and flipping three times while meowing before taking the class you want area.
Got to agree that requirement heavy prestige classes tend to be bad. The ones with easier requirements are typically much better for that reason. Archetypes on the other hand don't feel any sort of special. They just change up a few class abilities, typically for something worse. Prestige classes typically give you a new set of useful abilities that you will likely never meet another character using(in that campaign that is)
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Most of the prestige classes are "good," for specific characters. Which is how they are designed in Pathfinder; they are not the "power-ups" that 3.x moved to, as PrCs were that much better than a base class.
There really aren't that many PrC's which aren't viable. There are however what I think are bad entry paths...
I would also add that some prestige classes are "bad" to take for the full 10 levels, but "good" for more limited investment. Arcane archer (2-3 levels) and dragon disciple (4 levels), for example, have most of the best abilities early on. Same with hellknight, IMO (2 levels to pick up full movement in plate armor, rather than 3 levels of fighter and a sash of the war champion).
Some "good" uses of prestige classes (IMO):
[fighter or ranger] 1/wizard 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8; BAB +17 and 9th-level spells at 20th character level
Brawler (snakebite striker) 1/rogue 1/wizard (Evocation/Admixture school) 4/arcane trickster 6/arcane archer 2/arcane trickster +4/arcane archer +2; BAB +12 and 9th-level spells at 20th character level, as well as Sneak Attack on the arrow damage and Sneak attack on an Imbued spell (with Surprise Spells) at 18th character level
Magus 4/bard (arcane duelist) 1/dragon disciple (advance magus spellcasting) 4/magus +X; many other Str-based characters can benefit from a bard 1/dragon disciple 4 or skald 1/dragon disciple 4 "dip" (beastmorph vivisectionist alchemist, barbarians, bloodragers, fighters, etc.; even paladins and rangers)
And for a "viable" mystic theurge:
Magus 5/cleric (negative energy) 1/magus +2 (Broad Study, cast in medium armor/3rd-level spells)/cleric +2/mystic theurge 10; the cleric buffs are strong (divine favor/power, blessing of fervor, righteous might, etc.) and the spontaneous inflict spells (not to mention access to healing spells/wands) increase the character's staying power