To start I'll say don't get too excited, you won't be able to make strait full-attacks.
What I'm looking at though is the magus arcana maneuver mastery
I was checking out if any magus arcana might be worth committing 5 of my feats when I came across this one and my mind started to fill with visions of plain old wizards and sorcerers confidently wading into battle next to their Eldritch Knight and Dragon Desciple friends and doing just as well if not better.
Immediately I set out on a hunt to find ways to peg damage on to combat maneuver rolls. Unfortunately the closest viable thing I could find was greater sunder but the controversy around whether sunder works with a full-attack action was too much for me to handle.
I think the best options would be maybe a grapple focused build or using spellstrike in conuncture with trip to make an ultimate debuffer witch gish.
So I've brought my find here to see what everyone else can come up with.
Maeuver Mastery
Special: A magus can select this magus arcana more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time he selects this arcana, he selects another combat maneuver.
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Combine with this and we get one step closer to glorious Muscle Wizard.
I didn't even know that arcane discovery existed! Thats amazing!
The problem is that the Maneuver Mastery arcana lets you use your Magus level in place of your BAB, but if you are a Wizard with the Magus VMC your Magus level is zero.
I've never really been a fan of the idea that you can gain an ability that is useless to you simply because you "don't have (class) levels". I think that whatever class gave you that features should be the class that it works off by level, whether it's specified or not. In this example of Magus VMC, you could argue that this is your character level or that it's your "primary", or class taken at level one, class.
I suspect that we can safely assume - especially for a subsystem that's only legal in home games - that you count as a magus of your level for the purpose of your magus abilities. ^_^
I don't see why you would assume that. There are no rules statements supporting that idea. Furthermore, if your character level counted as your level in your VMC class by default, then they wouldn't have needed to include language like the following.
Discovery: At 15th level, he gains an arcane discovery (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 86) or wizard bonus feat, treating his character level as his effective wizard level.
Mutagen: At 11th level, he gains the mutagen class feature, with a duration equal to 10 minutes per character level. He counts as an alchemist for the purposes of drinking a mutagen.
Improved Uncanny Dodge: At 19th level, she gains improved uncanny dodge, treating her character level as her effective rogue level.
And there are many other examples.
Specific to this case, the Magus VMC says the following:
Magus Arcana: At 7th level, he gains one magus arcana. He treats his character level as his effective magus level when determining whether or not he can select an arcana.
Once again, the bolded part would be unnecessary if your assumption were correct. And while the statement says that your character level counts as your magus level for the purpose of qualifying for the arcana, it pointedly doesn't say that it counts for purposes of advancing the arcana.
I've never really been a fan of the idea that you can gain an ability that is useless to you simply because you "don't have (class) levels". I think that whatever class gave you that features should be the class that it works off by level, whether it's specified or not. In this example of Magus VMC, you could argue that this is your character level or that it's your "primary", or class taken at level one, class.
It isn't useless. There are plenty of Magus Arcana that can be used without levels in Magus. Maneuver Mastery just isn't one of them.
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I suspect that we can safely assume - especially for a subsystem that's only legal in home games - that you count as a magus of your level for the purpose of your magus abilities. ^_^I don't see why you would assume that. There are no rules statements supporting that idea.
A) Because I choose to read the rules in a way that renders them fully functional, rather than looking for ways to undermine that functionality. Just my way, though - feel free to do your own thing. ^_^
B) The book is meant as a series of experimental rules options open to tweaking - see any of Mr. Seifter's posts on the subject. The only place where RAW can overrule a GM is PFS, and variant multiclassing isn't legal there. So, the RAW is what you make of it. If you choose to rule that way, you are quite welcome to do so.
C) Because page limits and word count are a thing. They probably considered "You count as having magus levels for your magus abilities gained from the magus variant multiclass" to be wasted ink, especially since each VMC would have required all those wasted words. Word counts are a harsh mistress. ^_^
That said, it might be time to wander over to the Ask thread for some clarification.
Combine with this and we get one step closer to glorious Muscle Wizard.
Is there any archetype for other classes or any other way to get this discovery for another class.
One that is not wizard VMC, so it stacks with the magus VMC to get the magus arcana maneuver mastery.However those two would combine well with the artful dodge feat. And with a 1 level dip into empiricist investigator. More power to intelligence.
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Combine with this and we get one step closer to glorious Muscle Wizard.Is there any archetype for other classes or any other way to get this discovery for another class.
One that is not wizard VMC, so it stacks with the magus VMC to get the magus arcana maneuver mastery.However those two would combine well with the artful dodge feat. And with a 1 level dip into empiricist investigator. More power to intelligence.
No other way, unfortunately. It has no level requirement, though, so a wizard splash can get it.
Artful Dodge does seem like a good plan - imagine that (plus all this other stuff) on an oracle who has Cha to AC. Just drill your Dex deep into the Earth's molten core. ^_^
Time for the Intedin to rise
Well, {C} actually reinforces the point that I was making. The fact that they individually state that "your character level counts as effective levels in your secondary class" in dozens of cases throughout that section really only makes sense if that isn't a general principle. The Wizard VMC description alone uses that type of language five times. A single sentence at the beginning of the entire section could have established that "character levels count as effective levels in secondary classes unless stated otherwise." That would have been the obvious way to both reduce the word count and make the general principle clear. But they didn't establish it as a general rule, and they tellingly didn't add that language to the Magus Arcana section under discussion. ^_^
Points {A} and {B} are perfectly valid reasons to change the rules. I was simply pointing out what the current rules actually state. Of course a GM can houserule them into something else, and doing so would, in my opinion, reflect the experimental spirit in which Unchained was written. But just because a GM could rule that way, doesn't mean that "we" can all "safely assume" that they will do so without any language to support that decision. Perhaps you meant to say was something like "If I were GM, then this is how I would houserule it" or "All of the GM's that I play with would rule this way." ^_^
Marking for interest -- this gives me a Reach Eldritch Knight build idea, but I don't have time to flesh it out right now.
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Combine with this and we get one step closer to glorious Muscle Wizard.
The brain isn't just a muscle, it is my only muscle!
SOME OF POST OMMITED FOR SPACE
Improved Uncanny Dodge: At 19th level, she gains improved uncanny dodge, treating her character level as her effective rogue level.And there are many other examples.
Specific to this case, the Magus VMC says the following:
Magus Arcana: At 7th level, he gains one magus arcana. He treats his character level as his effective magus level when determining whether or not he can select an arcana.Once again, the bolded part would be unnecessary if your assumption were correct. And while the statement says that your character level counts as your magus level for the purpose of qualifying for the arcana, it pointedly doesn't say that it counts for purposes of advancing the arcana.
Well woops I didn't notice that it was only for the purpose of qualifying. Well if anyone was looking for a way to lower their BAB for combat maneuvers we have it.
Okay, I'm back from work, so here goes my new Reach Eldritch Knight idea. The original form of my idea was more or less in the last half of this post (scroll down to new 3rd character), but it had a bug in that I thought I had put in Combat Reflexes but somehow left it out, so you have to read down some posts, and this was also before the SLA FAQ nerf, which forces a thorough rebuild and outright throwing away some of the ideas (of course this was also before Variant MultiClassing and the Elven Branched Spear, and a shorter time before that cool campaign idea died a very unceremonious early death). It was originally inspired by this thread (post #3).
The Reach Eldritch Knight is not so much attempting to be a Magus alternative as the arcane equivalent of a Reach Cleric (also see discussion thread). Unfortunately, due to the SLA FAQ nerf, it doesn't help much to link to the old Eldritch Knight guide, but we're going to use Variant MultiClassing (Magus) and an Elven Branched Spear to salvage something -- it just won't be the same, since Eldritch Knight's capstone (Spell Critical, which is actually pretty nice with the right weapon) will be unavoidably pushed beyond the end of most games, and our Base Attack Bonus will be lower until getting to such levels where the game is about to end, but on the other hand, VMC Magus is going to let us put back in a bit of Magus stuff after all and even help with the combat maneuvers (pending resolution of the issue being discussed above).
This character will do multiple duty by being a full arcane caster delayed by only 3 levels (and only 1 caster level; eventually 4 levels and 2 caster levels) and by taking Attacks of Opportunity with reach at close to full BAB, using an Elven Branched Spear. Magus (vanilla and archetypes) just don't work so well for this purpose, due to lower level spells and the fact that Spell Combat is designed to work as a substitute for Two-Weapon Fighting and not Two-Handed Fighting. I can't (yet) guarantee that I can get something better with this build, but I want to take another shot at it.
Naturally, for using an Elven Branched Spear (1d8, 20/x3, Brace, Reach, Finesse, +2 to attack on Attacks of Opportunity, Exotic except Martial for Elves), it helps to be an Elf (meaning no feat needed for Exotic Weapon Proficiency). This also gives us +2 Dexterity to make Combat Reflexes and our non-armored Armor Class better and +2 Intelligence to make our spellcasting better; the -2 Constitution does hurt but isn't too horrible to un-dump as long as the point buy isn't too stingy. For our Martial Class, I would have suggested Swashbuckler, but we don't yet have an Elven Swashbuckler archetype that can use Swashbuckler Finesse with two-handed Elven Finesse weapons, so we're going to have to go with 2 levels of Lore Warden Fighter instead, which gets us more badly needed feats, plus that pesky Combat Expertise for free. For our spellcasting class, we are going to be a Wizard specializing in battlefield control (which suggests Conjuration, although other arcane schools can be made to work for this as well -- especially Diviner if you can't get the Defensive Strategist or Reactionary traits). Our VMC class will be Magus, as noted above (with the assumption that it is going to get Errata'd to be like the Oracle and Witch in not letting you take Extra Magus Arcana with one of your remaining feats). Feat starvation forbids taking Additional Traits as in my original idea, although you could take a Drawback to get 1 additional trait. Magical Knack is just about a must-have to compensate for 2 of 3(*) lost caster levels, and a Campaign Trait is often mandatory (if not, get one or maybe even both of the above two traits).
(*)This would be eventually 4 levels if you want to squeeze in Arcane Archer levels later on, although that is non-optimal due to the current impossibility of getting VMC Myrmidarch Magus for the Ranged Spellstrike; you would be switch-hitting between Archery and Reach, which isn't bad, but it is feat-intensive, and the two styles don't really synergize, although it would be good if the game is going really epic.
1. Fighter (Lore Warden) 1: Level 1 character feat = Combat Reflexes; Level 1 Fighter Bonus Feat = Weapon Finesse.
2. Wizard 1 (this could go 3rd, but want to get spellcasting online earlier). Pick Bonded Item for Arcane Bond, because a Familiar won't advance with Eldritch Knight levels (Boon Companion only puts a drop in the bucket and we can't afford it anyway, let alone Improved Familiar).
3. Fighter (Lore Warden) 2: Level 3 character feat = VMC (Magus) I (Arcane Pool) -- we can now put cool and useful effects on our weapon, although getting it enchanted as well is still a good idea; Level 2 Lore Warden Bonus Feat that replaces Bravery = Combat Expertise, which for some fiddly reason is needed for Improved/Greater Trip; Level 2 Fighter Bonus Feat = Improved Trip.
4. Wizard 2.
5. Wizard 3: Level 5 character feat = Bodyguard (if you want Knowledge is Power earlier and can wait on this feat, you could put Knowledge is Power in here instead of waiting until level 7).
6. Wizard 4.
7. Wizard 5: Level 7 character feat = VMC (Magus) II (Magus Arcana: Maneuver Mastery(*)); Wizard 5 Bonus Feat = Wizard Discovery (Knowledge is Power) (if you took Knowledge is Power at level 5 you can put another Wizard Bonus Feat in here -- especially if you want a Crafting or Metamagic feat).
(*)This requires resolution of the matter discussed above of just how effective your effective Magus levels are for the purposes of this Magus Arcana, whose wording was written long before VMC.
8. Wizard 6: Odd numbers of 1/2 BAB class levels are generally not so good for jumping to your prestige class, especially since the SLA FAQ nerf has probably hosed your chances to get the Eldritch Knight capstone anyway, and the next VMC Magus feature is going to alleviate some of the pain from that. So for the cost of delaying a hit point or two and your Eldritch Knight Bonus Feats by 1 level, scale up your Arcane School abilities a bit and get a couple of bonus spells in your spellbook without hurting your Base Attack Bonus.
9. Eldritch Knight 1: Level 9 character feat = a Wizard feat (or Bodyguard if you didn't already get it); Eldritch 1 Knight Bonus Feat = Greater Trip -- your Base Attack Bonus is just now high enough to qualify.
10. Eldritch Knight 2: Now your Base Attack Bonus and spellcasting both advance at full speed, although with a delay of 3 levels for each.
11. Eldritch Knight 3: Level 11 character feat = VMC (Magus) III (Spellstrike) -- now we get to start really doing the Magus thing, although the spells you use for this are going to have to be on the Magus spell list until you can get Broad Study at level 15;; right now, our spell levels are even with those of a Magus due to the delay of 3 levels of spellcasting, but we're going to start pulling ahead real soon. We're also even on Base Attack Bonus, and with +2 to Attacks of Opportunity from the Elven Branched Spear (as a feature of the basic weapon, before considering enchantments), we're doing not too shabby.
12. Eldritch Knight 4: And here is where we start to pull ahead on spellcasting, although a Magus will temporarily catch up at the next level.
13. Eldritch Knight 5: Level 13 character feat = a Wizard feat (unless you are going for Arcane Archer); Eldritch Knight 5 Bonus Feat = pick a Combat Feat (could be for archery if you really want those Arcane Archer levels). Magus temporarily catches back up to us in spellcasting levels, but now we're starting to pull ahead in Base Attack Bonus, and for practical purposes, we're going to stay ahead.
14. Eldritch Knight 6 or Arcane Archer 1 (requires a bit of feat squeezing earlier): If we stuck with Eldritch Knight, now we're pulling ahead of the Magus in spellcasting levels, and we're going to stay ahead, even if we do the Arcane Archer thing later; if we went with Arcane Archer, we're still even.
15. Eldritch Knight 7 or Arcane Archer 2: Level 15 character feat = VMC (Magus) IV (Magus Arcana: Broad Study) -- this lets us use Wizard spells that are not Magus spells with Spellstrike; also, we're pulling ahead of the Magus in spellcasting even if we went the Arcane Archer route; and if we did go for Arcane Archer, we now can do the fearsome Imbue Arrow with Anti-Magic Shell cheese, and we can even take 2 more levels of Arcane Archer without resulting in further caster level loss.
Edit: This does NOT mean that the Reach Eldritch Knight is better overall than the Magus. They serve different niches. The Magus is going to pull ahead in caster level (not spellcasting progression) once the first level of Eldritch Knight starts, and stay ahead, even though the Eldritch Knight eventually gets higher level spells. The Magus is going to win hands-down in doing burst damage (and will do better at getting through Spell Resistance) and in doing combat tricks other than the maneuver (Trip) that the Eldritch Knight specialized in (for one thing, the Magus will have a lot more feats), and some Eldritch Knight builds (the ones with whips) will even do a pretty good job with that. But the Eldritch Knight will have a niche in being the better battlefield controller by way of AoO-based action economy combined with higher level and more diverse spells for battlefield control (as well as for utility), of which the Magus is lacking (and will be better at getting through or bypassing high Saving Throws).
Okay, I'm back from work, so here goes my new Reach Eldritch Knight idea. The original form of my idea was more or less in the last half of this post (scroll down to new 3rd character), but it had a bug in that I thought I had put in Combat Reflexes but somehow left it out, so you have to read down some posts, and this was also before the SLA FAQ nerf, which forces a thorough rebuild and outright throwing away some of the ideas (of course this was also before Variant MultiClassing and the Elven Branched Spear, and a shorter time before that cool campaign idea died a very unceremonious early death). It was originally inspired by this thread (post #3).
The Reach Eldritch Knight is not so much attempting to be a Magus alternative as the arcane equivalent of a Reach Cleric (also see discussion thread). Unfortunately, due to the SLA FAQ nerf, it doesn't help much to link to the old Eldritch Knight guide, but we're going to use Variant MultiClassing (Magus) and an Elven Branched Spear to salvage something -- it just won't be the same, since Eldritch Knight's capstone (Spell Critical, which is actually pretty nice with the right weapon) will be unavoidably pushed beyond the end of most games, and our Base Attack Bonus will be lower until getting to such levels where the game is about to end, but on the other hand, VMC Magus is going to let us put back in a bit of Magus stuff after all and even help with the combat maneuvers (pending...
Wow this build looks awesome and super fun to play. If I can get my GM to houserule yes on maneuver mastery working I think I'll try this build out (arcane archer rout) in a game going to high levels or a game starting at high levels!
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Just to clarify: Gisher is correct; it would indeed be a houserule.
Sorry about that. I would still houserule in favor of it in this case. And I stand by my statement about assuming functional systems; this was not one of those times. ^_^
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^If they're going to introduce something like VMC, they should make it actually work in a useful way . . . .
That said, if you have to cut Maneuver Mastery due to this quasi-FAQ, the rest of the build should work. Not sure what Magus Arcana to get instead; it would be technically possible to get Broad Study instead of waiting until much later, but getting it 8 levels early just to get it online 4 of those levels earlier seems like a bad trade.
Something I'd also like to see to get this build to work better, and for more general use: A proper Elven Swashbuckler archetype whose Swashbuckler Finesse applies properly to the Elven Finesse weapons (not only Elven Branched Spear, but also Elven Curve Blade, as well as any other melee weapon listed under Elven Weapon Familiarity, including alternate racial traits that replace the normal Elven Weapon Familiarity with a different Weapon Familiarity, such as Spirit of the Waters).
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^If they're going to introduce something like VMC, they should make it actually work in a useful way . . . .
That said, if you have to cut Maneuver Mastery due to this quasi-FAQ, the rest of the build should work. Not sure what Magus Arcana to get instead; it would be technically possible to get Broad Study instead of waiting until much later, but getting it 8 levels early just to get it online 4 of those levels earlier seems like a bad trade.
It mostly works. It's better than some of the other VMCs, which work - badly. (Monk and ranger come to mind.)