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With the power at a price theme becoming the main focus of PF2's oracle, I figured it would be a good idea to rank all the curses, see what worked.

I'll keep it simple, I'm rating them on a scale of 1 to 7. 1 is for extreme cases of too much buck for too little bang, 7 is for extreme cases of too much bang for too little buck, and 4 has an ideal balance. 3 and 5 are off balence in one way or another but not horribly, it's 2 and 6 where problems start.

Note that my rankings assume a start of level 1 or 3 and an end a little bit above 15, so the later a boon from a curse comes the less it factors into the rating. I'm also assuming a home game where the GM can change what they're bringing to an encounter, not PFS. I'm also not considering dual-curse combos or potential with the Oracle's Burden spell.

big list:
Aboleth 3

Accursed 5

Blackened 2, but increase to 3 if the GM doesn't apply the penalty of the curse to scorching ray

Clouded Vision 2

Cold Blooded 4, but decrease to 3 in cold campaigns

Consumed 3

Covetous 4

Deaf 4

Deep One 3, but increase to 4 in aquatic campaigns

Demonic 3, but increase to 4 in evil campaigns

Ghoul 6

God-Meddled Uh.....I'll get back to you on this one.

Haunted 6, but reduce to 5 in intrigue campaigns if your GM gets a little too trigger happy with the mischief.

Hellbound 4, but increase to 5 in evil campaigns

Hive 4, but reduce to 3 in intrigue campaigns

Hunger 2

Infested 5, I'd say reduce to 3 in intrigue campaigns but goblin exclusive, also who wrote the progression on this? That's not how curse levels up!

Lame 5, but increase to 6 on oracles that can start with a mount

Legalistic 4

Lich 2, but increase to 3 in evil campaigns

Lycanthropy 4, but reduce to 2 if the GM rules that you can't understand anyone without speak with animals and not just that you can't speak.

Plagued 4

Possessed 5

Powerless Prophesy 4

Pranked 4, but reduce to 3 in intrigue campaigns if your GM gets a little too trigger happy with the mischief

Promethian 4, but reduce to 2 if the GM is slow at getting you to level 4 and is stingy on the npc clerics

Putrid 3, but reduce to 1 if an alchemist/investigator is in the party

Reclusive 4

Scoruge...rain check.

Shadowbound 3

Sitebound 1, yes I know this is meant for NPCs but a 1 is still a 1

Tongues 4, but reduce to 2 if your table likes to hide what you're doing from everyone else

Vampirism 2, but increase to 4 in evil campaigns

Wasting 6, but reduce to 4 in intrigue campaigns

Wolf-Scarred Face 3

Wrecker 1, but increase to 2 if you don't have a gentleman's oath to not sunder

Wrecking Mysticism 5

Elemental Imbalance 4, but reduce to 3 for water

Song-Bound 5, but reduce to 4 in an intrigue campaign

Toxic Blood 3

a few explanations:
Demonic is a rank below Hellbound purely because of the level 10 ability. Losing all the spells with good attached to them is a very big deal but so is immunity to fire damage. These curses are interesting in that the higher you get in level the more negative impact since you lose out of more and more spells, which means the higher level abilities get more scrutiny than normal.

A save or die spell like possession is a fast track to getting a 5 or more even at 10th level, and it would take something as debilitating as Clouded Vision to get it down to a 4. In PF2 where incapacitation abilities are nerfed on creatures stronger than you Ghoul, Possessed, and Wracking Mysticism would all be ranked 1 lower.

Flying oracles do not increase Lame's rating through 6 levels of reduced speed that stacks with medium armor before they get to fly, and there's nothing stopping the other oracles from just getting some winged boots. Mounted oracles get to cheat from day 1 and enjoy the later benefits all they want.

Elemental Imbalance for cold is ranked lower because 1, fire damage is everywhere and 2, that curse cuts you off of Flame Strike

Deaf is a 4 simply because of how wide open of a door it leaves for stealth builds.

Now bare in mind that these are just the conclusions of an oracle main, one with an extreme hatred of save or die effects regardless of who's using them. This list also doesn't factor differences between PF1 and PF2. For instance blacked is way less hurtful when the cantrip damage is as inflated as it is here.

Why did I post this here? Mostly in hope that seeing what worked, what didn't, and what was a spectacular flop would help balance the new curses better.


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To make things clear I was talking about the hail mary thing as if the oracle had an additional explosion when they went down, the focus spells are not and should not be the hail mary.


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Lyz Liddell wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

Delay Affliction should really get swapped with something else anyways.

It's too niche of a spell for how recyclable focus spells are, especially for Oracles who are designed to be cycling around pretty frequently.

In a playtest one shot our Oracle would just cast delay affliction twice on a random person for no benefit in order to get into his moderate curse so he could boost his healing.

I'm definitely hearing this - it's not the right spell for that role. We're working on it!

Restoration as a 2 action spell? Pretty please?


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See when I hear witch what I hear depends on the time of day. Sometimes it's actually spooky, but it's more often fairytales that come to my mind. Sometimes it's magical girls that come to mind, and not just the edgy ones. Every now and then a certain blonde kleptomaniac with the laserest laser to ever laser will cross my mind. And if you catch me on a nostalgia trip and sometimes my mind will go to the wicked, disgusting, green, rhyming, fat f--- of a rival to a bear and a bird that really needs a new game to come out, come on Microsoft!

Ahem. My point is witch means a lot of different things to different people. Your spooky could be another person's comedy, or mystic, or lewd.


BellyBeard wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Cole Deschain wrote:
Lyz Liddell wrote:
We don't have a final mechanic for this, but it's clear that the unconscious option isn't working, so it's right out! Our design conversations are ongoing about what mechanic we want to put in its place.

Might I suggest that doing a Hail Mary shuts off the oracle's spellcasting for a set period?

Like, they draw on their conduit too much and burn it out for a while.

That way, the price is stiff (your spellcaster can't cast spells until they have time to recover), but the player can still have their character do stuff in the context of the game.

Just make sure that the hail mary is a proper hail mary. If we're working on the power at a price angle I want a huge desperation option at the cost of my spellcasting. As of now there's not really a good hail mary in the revelation spells I can find.
Well, there is a balance tough. Make the effect too huge and the player starts using it at the end of every day,rather than as a desperation move. It needs to be a "tip the scales" kind of thing.

Honestly the "use it every day" thing might not be the worst. Oracle needs something to make it worthwhile compared to cleric and now that its customization heaven has been thrown out the window and Cleric gets more spells known and per day than an Oracle I feel letting them have one big blast when they're just done with everything is a something notable.

Sure one hypernova at the end of the day will probably not stand up as well to Cleric's raw spellpower, but if PF1 taught me anything it's that Oracles need as many unique tricks to them as they can muster in order to keep up with Cleric knowing almost every spell on the list that the two classes share.


This whole spell list fiasco is one of a few reasons why I'm not fond of how spell lists work in PF2. If we used class based lists this wouldn't be a controversy and there'd be more focus on the balance issues the witch has.


Cole Deschain wrote:
Lyz Liddell wrote:
We don't have a final mechanic for this, but it's clear that the unconscious option isn't working, so it's right out! Our design conversations are ongoing about what mechanic we want to put in its place.

Might I suggest that doing a Hail Mary shuts off the oracle's spellcasting for a set period?

Like, they draw on their conduit too much and burn it out for a while.

That way, the price is stiff (your spellcaster can't cast spells until they have time to recover), but the player can still have their character do stuff in the context of the game.

Just make sure that the hail mary is a proper hail mary. If we're working on the power at a price angle I want a huge desperation option at the cost of my spellcasting. As of now there's not really a good hail mary in the revelation spells I can find.


Bandw2 wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
to be clear, outside of classes that specifically made guns better i haven't seen a single person use a gun in my entire time playing, and there was very little reason to over a crossbow.

I also didn't see anyone use a gun without class features that helped them use them.

It was great and I hope it continues to be the case in PF2.

Right, because a switch hitter with a Pistol and a Cutlass isn't piraty at all, and so people only ever used guns or didn't ever. They shouldn't be tied to specific classes.

Argh, pistols be for yellowbellied, scumguzzling, deadweights! A real pirote uses blades for the nimble ones, axes for the burly bois, and a big, booming cannon held on the ship!

...Okay but talking seriously, you could run cutlass and pistol in PF1 since Gunslinger came with martial weapons. It ate every feat you got but you could run it, and it was a pretty decent idea due to the reload speeds firearms had. You just sacrificed damage on both fronts, something every switch hitter suffers from.

But I don't really see the problem of needing a specific class to use guns. After all you need a specific class to throw explosives or use a crossbow as anything more than a backup in PF1, and those have less archetypes than the gun. It's not the only thing getting this treatment.


Replace Delay Affliction with Restoration but now it takes a single action to cast.


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GM Stargin wrote:
Don't know if I'm derailing the thread here but I do want to get across to Paizo that... while I appreciate their desire to highlight diverse ancestries in the iconics... the need to represent human diversity requires more human iconics

Human diversity is more than just skin color. You could easily represent neurodivergencies like ADHD or the Autism Spectrum Disorder with a nonhuman race. In fact as someone on the spectrum I personally would encourage the latter...assuming they write them well. Western writers tend to be troublesome with this.


Bandw2 wrote:
to be clear, outside of classes that specifically made guns better i haven't seen a single person use a gun in my entire time playing, and there was very little reason to over a crossbow.

I also didn't see anyone use a gun without class features that helped them use them.

It was great and I hope it continues to be the case in PF2.


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thenobledrake wrote:
And no D&D version or Pathfinder version has ever been a "system that results in taking a sword to the chest that doesn't require 2 months of downtime to recover from" because that is not now, nor has it ever been, how hit points work.

This is table dependent. I personally flavor HP as how tough your vitals are and how hard your skull is to crack. More HP means it takes harder hits for those things to fail.

Why do I do this? Because PCs at level 5 or higher are superhuman in their prowess and should be given superhuman durability to match.


I have a Cryptid Scholar Investigator that's able to boost her the ac of her allies to absurd degrees with aid another, opportune advise, shield, and barkskin. Firing on full cylinders it turns someone that doesn't invest in defense into something even the boss has trouble to hit, and gods forbid it's paired with a paladin.


Another member of the "start at level 3" camp here. Only exception is for APs. Main reason is because screw how deadly critical hits are at level 1. If I wanted a lot of PC death going around I'd be playing Dungeon Crawl Classics. Getting a small jump start on a build is a nice bonus though.


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The big thing curse needs to do is be worth the bang for the buck it's charging. In PF1 Kinetisist was in a similar boat where it took penalties in exchange for using its powers and it got bonused based on how harsh the penalties were. And by penalties I mean working with a smaller pool of hit points.

This worked because the rewards for burn where pretty big deals. Boosts to attack and bigger boosts to damage. All day size bonuses to physical stats of your choice. Crit/sneak protection that went up with the burn. This was on top of boons you could pay burn for that lasted all day like the defensive talents. This type of system has worked before and I'm sure Paizo can pull it off for Oracle, especially since the discourse over it has been loud.


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Bandw2 wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Fire is probably the worst off of the three mysteries but its curse at least has direct offensive and defensive benefits.
Listen, people just aren't thinking of how to properly utilize being on fire

You joke but my build for apocalypse oracle was "grab fire resistance and wade into melee while on fire." And it did it better than flame does here.


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Excaliburproxy wrote:
Listen: The alchemist sucked in PF1 as well.

I could write something but this image says it better than I ever could.


There are magical instruments costing 60, 900, and 19,000 gp for a +1, +2, and +3 item bonus to perform respectively, and since I'm going Maestro Muse my perform bonus is gonna be important.

That said my dex isn't high on my priority list so maybe the physical armor might be better. I'm starting with 12 at the moment. I could get it as high as 16 but int, wis, and especially con and cha are hungry too.


So after looking at bard enough to want to make and play one I've run into the question of what spells to get. After a trip of culture shock (hi magic missile, you're sure on my list!) I've wondered something, how good is mage armor for a bard?

Like sure, it's free armor with faster(?) improvements but it's also less AC in general. Like when the chain shirt hits its first +1 it's giving the cap of protection that Mage Armor would give.

For reference my bard is operating with a lute and will be abusing the amount of damage telekinetic projectile deals to not use a proper weapon so I'm not gonna be paying for my offense.


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I think I have an idea, instead of making the revelation spells the Hail Mary, what if we give each curse an effect when it goes overboard? An omegaheal for life, some kind of flame crash for flame, and a big party buff for battle. You'd have full control over the Hail Mary effect, but after that you'd be feeling a lot of hurt.


Draco18s wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
I agree with this with a caveat. The players need to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is not something they're gonna win if they charge in. There's plenty of ways to go about this thankfully.
Quite. Too often "surprise! bad stuff!" isn't something that I, as a player, could have known or anticipated as being possible when it happens. I went in with a certain expectation and got blindsided by a surprise boss/trap/whatever that instantly wrecks my face with no warning, no ability to mitigate, and once resolved I'm no longer in shape to "run away."

This can even happen on fights you're meant to fight. I was forced to sit out of a the final fight of a book in an AP because of a trap that came out of nowhere. The worst part is the book went from "If you can deal with the premise it's amazing!" to "It's mostly good but your DM NEEDS to adjust the last fight or it's for sure to be a buzzkill on multiple levels."


Haffrung wrote:
Draco18s wrote:


I'll let you look back at the original statement. The relevant phrase was "players need to learn..." to which my analogy to Chutes and Ladders is not a strawman. It might be a simplification that taken out of context is hyperbolic, but it isn't a strawman.

I think you're reading a tone into the remark that wasn't intended. I take "players need to learn" in the same tone as:

You got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run

It's not badwrongfun for a DM to include encounters that the PCs should not expect to win in a toe-to-toe throw down. That they're meant to trick, ambush, avoid, evade, or talk their way out of.

I agree with this with a caveat. The players need to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is not something they're gonna win if they charge in. There's plenty of ways to go about this thankfully. My favorite is making a redshirt NPC that hurls insults at the party and then showing them how much damage he took.

Yes that is above your max HP, yes that was one attack, and yes I am playing Is That Blood Thine or Thy Enemy's.

Now run


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Squiggit wrote:
1e style curses sucked. They were boring and completely disjointed from the rest of the class. The PF2 iteration of mysteries are significantly better.

Just because they sucked for you doesn't mean they sucked for everyone. For my pf1 oracles I've had quite a varied experience with the curses. Sometimes, yeah, not really there. Hi Haunted, hi Legalistic. Other times it's a big part of the build. Hi Deaf, you're sure fun to make a stealth oracle with. Sometimes they're a huge part of the character even if the mechanical impacts are minimal. My Winter Oracle actually made a boss fight easier because she ate two people that were supposed to become zombies in the fight and hid them in the snow because of the ghoul curse.

And I wouldn't call these curses significantly better. While I do like the burn aspect going on here, I'm starting to think marrying them to mysteries was a mistake. In PF1 you can make a mystery that does nothing but screws the Oracle and it's fine, Oracles can just not take that curse. Here? A bad curse dooms an entire mystery. That's potentially an entire playstyle sent down the drain for the class.


Micheal Smith wrote:

I didn't read every post but it seems like people don't know or forgotten about Godless healing. This feat is amazing if you don't have a patron deity. Every hour you can have Battle Medicine to be used on yourself in combat I mean this isn't something you should solely rely on but hey the option is there so if you do have someone looking to TDW this is a great feat to have.

All of my characters that can take this feat will. Because the best part is you can use Battle Medicine on yourself and not rely on anyone else if need be.

Don't mind me, just scribbling down notes for when PF2 games get rolling.


Here's a reason for witches to not have a divine spell list available to them, it might be easier to balance them in the same book as Oracle if they don't have access to the same spell list the Oracle has.


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GM for a PF1 Occultist here. They really don't need me to hand them magic items 24/7. In fact every implement I've handed to them has been mundane. They make for really powerful gishes. Finding a way to challenge her in combat has been difficult to say the least.

They also don't seem to be that complex to build. Maybe the mental focus might be tricky each day but that's no more difficult than prepared spellcasting.


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So I just looked at the sorcerer class page for the first time. Sorcerer gets more spells known and spells per day than an oracle. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that our extra focus spells don't make up for this if only because of the curse mechanic.


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I can't believe that killing and the rezing the oracle is being seriously considered as a way to bypass the curse.


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zer0darkfire wrote:
The developers said on stream that they really wanted to stay away from X to Ys, and for good reason.

I understand this sentiment and generally agree with it, but I feel letting investigator use int for perception is a worthy exception for this considering a) perception is more vital for this class than any other and b) it's not like perception is the only thing worth investing wis over. Even if it had no skills tied to it at all will saves would still make investing in the stat not only worthwhile but highly advised.


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zer0darkfire wrote:


Unsettling Deduction:
Reaction/Free Action Not really sure which to use for balance.
Trigger You critically succeed at a check to Study a Suspect

You accurately predict and describe an opponents next action to them, unnerving them. You attempt to demoralize the target of your Study a Suspect, adding your circumstance bonus from Study a Suspect. As normal, this demoralize has the auditory trait and the target must be able to understand you even if you have abilities that say otherwise.

Next you'll say, "This ability sounds really cool and I want to use it on my investigator." GASP.

This ability sounds really cool and I want to use it on my investigator!

GASP.

In all seriousness add this please so I can take it and the "I totally bought this" abilities and make my Joseph Jostar even more Joseph Jostary.


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Sorry about that, got distracted by Pokemon.

The big thing PF1 witch hair has going for it is that you can deliver touch spells through your hair. An int based attack with 10 feet of reach was better than getting up close and personal, even if it did mean you had to go against full AC.

As far as I can tell, PF2 doesn't allow for delivering touch spells through natural attacks. I might have missed a rule somewhere though.

Without that, I would like feats that allow for the White Hair Witch archetype to be a thing once again. Things like more reach, grab/free grapple attempt after hitting an opponent, constrict. Was it the most optimal playstyle? Gods no, but it was fun gatdangit.


More feats for that hair please. I don't care if I'm a lot less effective than a martial, I just want the hair to be a decent option like it was in PF1.


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Castilliano wrote:
I don't think anybody wants to shine vs. minions to the detriment of their contributions in boss battles.

This, this, this. I cannot favorite this enough.


Corla wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:

Really I feel the big problems here is that Life and Flame just aren't offering enough bang for your buck. Look at Battle for a moment. Fast healing of half your level in battle is well worth the AC and Saving Throw penalty (especially in a system with jank 0 HP mechanics) and its major curse bumps up the fast healing to character level. Fast healing beyond 4 was hard to get for PCs and here we have Fast Healing gatdang 11.

THIS IS ON TOP OF +4 TO DAMAGE! This is worth the stupefied here!

The math on Battle oracle isn't actually all there. The design is to make it more of a martial character, by it never quite gets anywhere near as good as an actual martial character, but quite a bit. +4 damage is nothing compared to the greater weapon specialization that most damage dealer get. And even if you multiclass into barbarian to get the bonus damage to add Rage on top of that it still pales in comparison. Not to mention they have a harder time hitting than a martial character.

See here's the thing. I'm looking primarily at the fast healing, not the damage. To me the damage is the proverbial cherry. Sure it's nice to lick, but it's nothing compared to the ice cream of the fast healing. I'm also guessing that by the time you're using this option most of the time you're gonna be out of your better spell slots, there's a lot less in this system after all.

In other words this gives Battle Oracles a desperation move at high levels, and while it's not the pulpiest of desperation moves it's still better than Life or Flame would be without any spell slots. And that's assuming Paizo doesn't add any feats to make battle oracle better at smacking someone, which I doubt is the case.

Now if Oracle gets more spell slots this will become less worthy, but I'd still call it far from worthless. It's Fast Healing 11 for crying out loud and it goes up! You'd have to hurl all the debuffs at it to not make it worthwhile.


Really I feel the big problems here is that Life and Flame just aren't offering enough bang for your buck. Look at Battle for a moment. Fast healing of half your level in battle is well worth the AC and Saving Throw penalty (especially in a system with jank 0 HP mechanics) and its major curse bumps up the fast healing to character level. Fast healing beyond 4 was hard to get for PCs and here we have Fast Healing gatdang 11.

THIS IS ON TOP OF +4 TO DAMAGE! This is worth the stupefied here!

So what do the other curses do? Well at moderate Flame blinds you beyond 30 feet and makes everything else hard to hit unless you use fire in exchange for what? Concealment. A cheap flat check that might not even help. Life is even worse. For shafting any other healer trying to fix you, you have a 33% shot per die of healing more than your previous maximum with heal spells. There's a decent chance at low levels that you get jack s#~$ from this! These are not appropriate boons for the price you are paying, not even with the revelation spells put into consideration.

And that's just the moderate curses. Major? Hoo boy. Life is a bit on the debatable side as spell slots are pitiful here and free heals are free heals, but is it worth taking double the damage and potentially dropping to the floor on a character that can only get back to 1HP from other people? And this is on every 5th level + spell. If this is going to be I thing I think it needs to be allies only, regardless of feats.

Now Flame, dear gods what were they thinking? Take 2d6 damage each round or sacrifice an action. Extreme but this is major curse. The benefit? You get to do 2d6 fire damage to adjacent creatures, and they, not you, get a saving throw on the damage. Wheeeeeeee. Now if instead of doing damage to enemies you gained some kind of bonus to your next fire spell based on the damage you took, that would be pretty tasty. I'm not sure how you would do that though.

TL:DR Battle's curse is fine. The risk on Life and Flame are good but the rewards need improvements.


Was this the party with the investigator that went out for a smoke break in character during a boss fight?


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You know somehow I doubt that Anathema is nearly as debilitating than any of these curses.


Quintessentially Me wrote:

Kineticists in PF1 have a more tightly bound power level than other classes. The floor is higher (i.e. hard to be too ineffective) and the ceiling is lower (i.e. hard to be too overpowering).

The theme and flavor, though, I think appealed to a lot of people.

Can confirm. My friend LOVES the class and has a hard time not playing one because of the flavor. I personally played one because it was the easiest way to do damage with water.


Unicore wrote:

So I was thinking about this more today and fascinated by the idea that there could be a studied target mechanic that could let the investigator give the bonus damage to any one attack before the end of their next turn, rather than just their own attack.

My vision for this would be that the investigator spends an action on their turn to be able to use their reaction to add their bonus damage to an attack that has already hit against their target.

This removes the 2 D20 roll issue, but keeps the excitement of the mechanic resting on a die roll. And let's the investigator act in even more of a support roll with things to do in combat that are not dependent on the character being the attacker, although they still could be.

My investigators are pretty used to having their DPS be the rest of the party so this would be an absolutely delightful change for me.


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One thing to note is that the successful thing investigators do in combat doesn't have to be damage. In PF1 I managed to make an investigator that managed to bolster her allies AC to the point where bosses would spend fights never hitting them. Effortless aid and infusion is a fun combo.

Personally I'd love for more combat support options even for the non-alchemist guys. Stuff for maneuvers/debuffs after doing studied strike would be cool too.


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
It almost feels like the designer s heard 'how broken' Life Oracles allegedly were in PF, and decided to go in the opposite direction.

Every "broken" thing Life Oracles could do was either something every other oracle could do or was related to life link, usually alongside lay on hands to make yourself an HP battery.

While Life was one of the stronger mysteries it was far from broken. Mostly because it focuses on healing which in a rocket taggy system like PF1 is pretty difficult to do well.


Just a heads up, the option to skip the witch survey is bugged and forces you to do it anyway.


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What I wanna know is why recall knowledge isn't being used here. I mean, Investigator's thing is being a knowledge monkey, why are they not allowed to use that knowledge to hit harder?


Captain Morgan wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
I still find it a little odd that the Flame Mystery doesn't grant resistance to, you know, flame.
Well, that I kind of get, given how hard they are pushing the double edged sword nature of the class. You can offset that by using the Resist Energy spell though.

Doesn't the fire damage caused by the curse say it ignores resistance and immunity on you? And only you?


It has come to my attention that the Medicine skill actually restores 2d8 HP if used correctly, which I was not aware of at the time of making this post. I retract my concerns...I still want the old cure/inflict system from PF1 on oracles though.


Alright, so I've had enough time reading this and I've come to a worrying hypothesis. Oracle, even life Oracle, doesn't have the spellpower to keep a party healthy on their own at low levels and has to spend everything to do so at higher levels.

In PF1, a level 1 oracle as the solo healer often ends up blowing all 4 spell slots on healing the party. It doesn't matter if they get a bunch of 1's or a bunch of 8's, with the limited health pools those 4 slots burn up fast. However as health pools and spell slots increase with level the need for you to burn your slots to heal decreases.

So what's the deal? The deal is this Oracle never gets more than 3 spells per level per day. Even with d8+8 healing I'm not entirely confident this class can keep up as a solo healer at level 1 with how few spell slots they got. Later on, who knows how much they're gonna be forced to heal when they would rather use that fancy new holy water carpet bomb spell. (Granted I love being the healer but I understand it's a chore for other people.) That said, I do have some solutions for this.

1) Hey remember Starfinder's Mystic? Remember how it has some healing hands that heals 5HP per level each day? It helped Mystic keep up with the damage most of the time, though stamina also played a role in that. Maybe let Oracle have something similar in the first level feats.

2) Bring back virtue the cantrip and make it a d4 heal you can use once per person per minute. Or 5 minutes if you're that scared of out of combat healing.

3) You know how cleric gets free slots dedicated to Healing/Harming? I'm thinking maaaaaaaybe Oracle could also have that?

4) This doesn't help the situation but free heal/harm each new spell level like in PF1 where you get free cure/inflict known for each spell level would be very much appreciated.


The flame mystery in PF1 was a pretty swift mystery, possessing acrobatics and climb and perform as class skills, an option to move faster with free nimble steps, and an option to fly. That boost to reflex saves suits it well, they just need more feats exclusive to them to help them stand out.


Consider this. If Alahazra was made PF2's Oracle iconic her character would need a rewrite due to how PF2's curses work. She would be changed from effectively a blind character to a character that's only effectively blind every now and then.

In other words, porting her over would...abilitywash? Sightwash? Whitewash but for her condition rather than her skin color. Is that more offensive than replacing her with a bird?

...Just so nobody gets the wrong idea that's an actual question. I honestly do not know which of these two options would be more offensive.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the point should be that it should not be feasible to build an oracle who is simply not inconvenienced by their curse because "it only affects a thing I have chosen not to do."

I think the biggest no-curse in PF1 was "Legalistic."

While Legalistic was among the easiest curses to bypass the benefits from it were either lacking (level 5's is a situational boost and while level 10 gave you a reroll it took a long time to do so) or forced you to interact with the curse.

If you ask me, the biggest no-curse was Haunted. It only impacted non-weapon items so as long as you're not the consumable user you only have to worry about dropping your weapon. In exchange you got 6 spells, which included such beasts as Telekinesis and Reverse Gravity. The illusion spells and Mage Hand weren't too shabby either.

It seems PF 2 wants to make every curse a high impact curse this time, a bit of a shame. I feel some low impact curses here and there would be fine so long as the benefits to those curses is kept lower than the curses with higher impacts. Tongues was a good example of this where the problem was easy to work around but the benefit was also lackluster.

Regardless it is Paizo's game, though I hope that they make sure each curse is worth it. They have to be a lot more careful now with them since a curse that harms too much can take its entire mystery down with it.


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So I'm just gonna drop a...probably lukewarm take here, I'd rather have 3 classes that do the exact same thing than force everything into little over 10 classes. It's one of the reasons I dislike 5E even after playing around in it, concepts that could be much more fleshed out if they were fully fledged classes. Divine Soul sorcerer instantly comes to mind for me as a cop-out for having a proper Oracle class in that game.

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