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I rise from my grave...to ask y'all a question. I'm gonna be running this and I've been looking at the statblocks of the NPCs that made me pick this AP to be the AP I run to get my skills up to snuff. Unfortunately it seems the custom bug bit me yet again (I can't even run a simple monster without changing the feats on them.) So before I give into my urges I wanted to see if reclassing anyone would break the campaign. Anyone that gets a reclassing would still be true to the character's core, Sandru would still be a swordsman with a smile and doginess to spare, Shalelu would still be at home in the woods and skilled with a bow, etc.


What weapons would someone from Irrisen usually carry on them? I've been searching around and I haven't found anything on the matter.


Our investigator is a lot more combat focused than most and tends to save inspiration for saving throws. They're also a psychic detective and lack expanded inspiration, so that's how some of the traps got by. My memory also isn't the best and I might be misremembering failures to disarm traps as failures to spot traps, I know we at least trigger a lot of traps.

However I do know for certain we've been ambushed by almost everything that can ambush us and the only instance of us not being ambushed we because we shot arrows at the thing we didn't trust rather than on perception checks.

Book 2:
Unless there was ambush opportunities in the fortress in book two, we got to the top of the roof, had to run, and then ran back in with reinforcements on that one so everything was in different spots than originally intended. Also the thing that didn't ambush us was the living topiary.


My GM is pretty by the books so I suspect they're using the default stealth for invis, but that's not the issue with the perception. With that it's that the Paladin, Investigator, and I think the Bard all maxed it out and feels like it was a complete waste for all the things that aren't invisible that keep ambushing us. Whenever we find something it's because the investigator took 20 and even when he does he still misses a trap or two. Invisibility causes a different problem that's pretty much personal to the Paladin (protip, don't have someone start playing melee in this campaign.) I was mostly asking to check if invisiblity and grapple counters were something I should make priorities for the other APs or if I shouldn't bother.

Also as a party we're fine on knowledge skills, it's just that the Paladin lost interest in the plot because of book'o'rama. That was mostly on us researching a huge majority of the books before even starting the stuff in book 3. I'm hoping they'll be back on board once this part has been completed.


It's mostly the combat. I've noticed that enemies almost always go first, that there's a lot of invisibility and darkness flying around, and that everything grapples the investigator here in particular. There's also the matter of skill checks because our melee hasn't been able to spot a single thing despite maxing out perception and they lost interest after...I'm gonna spoiler this just in case.

book 3 at the start:
They lost interest during the research phase of chapter 3 since they had no knowledge skills to look into the books.


I'm almost at the end of book 3 for this campaign. Without spoilers is this what I should expect from Paizo APs as a whole, or is this an outlier?


taks wrote:
Why the shaman hate?

It's a flavorless upgrade to both Oracle and Witch, two full caster classes that didn't need upgrades. It's an oracle that gets to mysteries and can swap one out each day while also being a witch with every spell on their list, the ability to burn bad spells, and they don't loose all their spells permanently if their familiar dies.

Also note my post at the start of the thread where I listed it as something to remove. I want the class gone. Its "replacements" were already in the game when it butted its head in there.


Omnitricks wrote:
Why don't we just have an "errata" removing all non spellcasters at this rate? They are pretty much getting more and more useless.

Remove them, remove full casters, rearrange the condition removal spells a little, move the plot spells down a bit, and you'll have a pretty well balanced game as far as player options are concerned.


See the reason I put what I put on the chopping block is because we're removing things, not replacing them. And those things just need to be removed rather than replaced with something else.

If it were something that we were replacing than it changes.

1) Vatican Casting

2) Ability Scores

3) Shaman


I'd recommend using Discord for voice but otherwise everything Crystal said about roll20 is spot on...though finding tokens to represent things with its search engine is a pain at times.


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Tyinyk wrote:

1. The honor optional rules.

2. The reputation and fame optional rules.
3. The wounds and vigor optional rules.

This is my first time hearing of any of those optional rules.


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mardaddy wrote:

Very poorly thought out justification to give bonus to AC.

So by the fluff, the LEAST LIKELY to get into melee (INT bases PC's of any stripe) get a bonus to AC for their comprehensive melee experience.

Okay, I don't like this either, but 95% of the magus class is gonna go up close and personal and there's plenty of alchemists and investigators that like to dance in melee. And then there's wizards -> eldritch knights too. Saying INT based classes don't do melee is a lie that I will not stand for.


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Can we get an errata that forces prepared casters to use the rod during spell prep...or make everyone take a full round action when using them?


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1) Fates Favored

2) Shaman

3) Combat Expertise


johnlocke90 wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Isn't there a feat that allows you to add your INT to your AC? Or am I hallucinating again? Oh well, time to go gather the cats that are flying around the room.
There's a feat that lets you use INT as DEX for feat requirements at least, and bring me one of those flying kitties.

Thats pretty nifty.

Any way to replace strength for feat requirements?

Thankfully there isn't. Let the poor stat have that at least.


DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Isn't there a feat that allows you to add your INT to your AC? Or am I hallucinating again? Oh well, time to go gather the cats that are flying around the room.

There's a feat that lets you use INT as DEX for feat requirements at least, and bring me one of those flying kitties.


Barbarians are more deadly than paladins under normal circumstances, but paladins get to be more deadly 1 to 7 times per day depending on the level. Paladins are harder to take out of a fight though if you can't ORKO them and they have an extra feat compared to barbarians who need raging vitality if they don't wanna risk exploding at 0 HP.


Oh yes Dreamed Secrets, yes, remind me, how many spells at a time can they grab at once? 2, and they have to be lower than the highest level cast. In other words Time does it earlier and with more at once. Plus you can't grab time stop with it either.

And that's not counting a Time oracle grabbing this feat nor is it counting a certain prereq in that feat...

666bender wrote:

give me 1 reason why any oracle of time is any better than a shaman "speaker of time" . ?

We're comparing oracles to oracles. Talk about shamans somewhere else.


Dracoknight wrote:

lvl 2 Paladin + Nature/Lunar Oracle + Noble Scion "Everything to CHA" setup?

I keep getting reminded why Oracle is my favorite class over uRogue, but i keep making rogues for some reason ^^;

Personally I'd go Paladin with a dip into Nature/Lunar/Lore for that one given Smite Evil and Lay on Hands both go off the stat, meaning you sorta have charisma to HP and a few times per day you have charisma to attack and double charisma to defense since smite gives a deflection bonus...assuming you can find a deity that would make Nature/Lunar/Lore oracles out of paladins.


CBDunkerson wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Okay, I don't AP, how much s!@~ does Baba Yaga raise?

Well... there was that time she single-handedly carved the nation of Irrisen out of the Lands of the Linnorm Kings.

...or the whole thing in Iobaria with making Kostchtchie a twisted giant under her control.

...and meddling in affairs on multiple worlds (e.g. Golarion, Triaxus, Earth...)

...enslaving an ancient proto-Norn to gain influence over fate...

et cetera. Fun and hijinks.

Yeeeesh, yeah that's the sort of thing the gods should be intervening with, or at the very least having a child and making that child an oracle with the potential to go mythic. I'd suggest sending their best warrior or a behemoth but...well...I don't think those would work on her at the moment.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Remember that at a certain power level deities are going to take note. What stops a level 20/tier 10 character from liberating Cheliax singlehandedly? Same thing that stops Cayden and Desna from going in themselves. Actions have consequences, no matter the power level.
Eh. I'm skeptical of this logic. Characters like that aren't deities and don't operate by the same rules at all, allowing them to act relatively free of such restrictions. Heck, Baba Yaga has explicitly remained a non-deity partially specifically for that reason.

Okay, I don't AP, how much s@&* does Baba Yaga raise?


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Remember that at a certain power level deities are going to take note. What stops a level 20/tier 10 character from liberating Cheliax singlehandedly? Same thing that stops Cayden and Desna from going in themselves. Actions have consequences, no matter the power level.


Note for race, either go half-orc with the tattoo trait and fate's favored to boost all your saves by 2 or go half-elf with the dual minded traits for +2 for all will saves and +4 if enchantment shows up. Half-elf also has a bonus to perception making the wisdom penalty less of an impact.

Also if you go bard heavily encourage pet classes or summoning classes so you can actually buff powerful things.


I imagine most high level PCs take a page out of the gods' books and take a less involved role. Many probably train apprentices, and I imagine quite a few operate or even found guilds to train tomorrow's heroes. Either way they're probably not going to go do hero stuff unless the country's about to explode or something.

Unless they ascend into godhood, that's also an option.


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swoosh wrote:
it's 2016, do people really still think misanthropy is cool?

It's not cool, it's fun!


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

If you have an ability that lets you roll something twice and select the best option, and are hit with a condition that makes you roll the smae thing twice but take the worse result, what happens?

This came up when my oracle used borrow fortune. She has an ability that lets her roll twice while beating spell resistance or while dispelling. We ruled that the ability and condition cancel each other out, but is there an official rule on this?


TriOmegaZero wrote:

Oh lord, this one again?

Well, my Life Oracle is 15th level now. Still haven't lost a party member yet.

Flame Oracle level 13, almost 14 here. Lost 2 party members and in both cases they went from full HP to dead in mythic trials.


Okay so apparently Melee cohorts have trouble staying alive during mythic trials because our barbarian kicked it in the middle of our second mythic trial. Thankfully she got back up after breath of life.


Ehhhh, channel dice like to vary and vary hard. You say it will heal 35 and it will avoid the 30-39 range just to spite you. That's not to say that they fail you a lot, they're just really inconsistent, moreso than any other d6 I've seen.


Think healing in combat would happen more often if every class had options to "cast from hit points?" Things like the powerful physical attacks from modern SMT games which all cost a set amount of HP to use. Not like burn (which I'm still fine with BTW) but something you either had to be careful with unless there's a life oracle or something in the party.


Bandw2 wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I'm actually reading a book about one of my favorite Chaotic Neutral characters—Clariel, the Lost Abhorsen, by Garth Nix. That's what Chaotic Neutral should be, in my opinion. Clariel isn't randomly destructive, or "evil-but-not-exactly". She's a free spirit who doesn't want to bother anybody and doesn't want to be bothered. She has a sense of right and wrong, and feels a sense of conscience that constrains her, but she really just wants to be left alone. Her independence is the thing she prizes above all else.

Things don't go too well for her, but she's one of my favorite characters in that series.

Yoshikage Kira Just Wants to Live Quietly

JoJo's Part 4:
See if he wanted to live quietly he should, I dunno, not kill women and take their severed hands out on dates!

Ashram wrote:
Choose a different deity then? >.>

Might not be an option in this instance. Each deity has different boons for their obedience. IIRC Calistria is amazing for bards in the later levels as she allows you to use performance to turn a spell...or negate it. I forget the specifics on that.


You could go full Persona 3 on them and use spell bullets if you don't mind firearms.


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Melkiador wrote:
The downside of the cohort was supposed to be that you need to keep them safe while keeping them with you, because they need xp to level. And if they die, they can be harder to replace. Meanwhile eidolons are almost expected to die every day, and companions only take a day of downtime to replace.

Except the level you get cohorts is close to when death stops being the end of everything and starts to become an annoyance, especially if there's a cleric or oracle in the party.


Science. '^'


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I have no idea, I haven't been tracking my Holy Smite dice that well.

Clearly this means we need to do extensive testing. I say smite 100 mooks of each alignment, take the average, and whoever has the highest is the most evil. Use intensify spell for some extra range.

FOR SCIENCE!


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Meanwhile our parties go full communism with multiple members taking crafting feats. One guy does wondrous items, another does weapons and armor, and another does rings.


Okay, you've misread some of my things and aren't getting what I'm arguing, at least I assume, so I'm going to make myself as clear as possible.

The nature mystery is weak when compared to other mysteries for a multitude of reasons, the biggest of which being that it cannot do anything significantly different from any other mystery aside from mounted combat and because its revelations are unable to make up for its bonus spells which have a tendency to lack impact. The fact than Lunar can do almost anything it can do better makes the problem that much worse.

Do you understand my argument now? I'm saying it's weak compared to other mysteries. And you know what? That's fine. No matter what mystery you take you can still kick serious ass with 9 levels of spellcasting. Some just kick more ass than others and Nature's one of the others here. I never said Nature couldn't hold its own in a campaign and never meant to imply it.


TheMonkeyFish wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
TheMonkeyFish wrote:
So.... is there any chance of getting a Divine Dancer Oracle?
VMC Bard.
PFS Legal Divine Dancer?

Ranks in perform (dance) and flavor your somatic components.


Rysky wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Rysky wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Alex Smith 908 wrote:

Really a lot of this comes with how user-friendly magic has become in 3.5/Pathfinder. I don't think Paizo would dare in the modern era to include spells with the possibility to screw with the players if used poorly. When magic is on magic's terms it makes sense for a spell to have a morality in and of itself, but Pathfinder magic is all on the player's terms and thus really just a tool.

There is actually an item specifically from AD&D that does give a reason for fast healing being wrong. The Ring of Gaxx wasn't evil to use but if you used it too much it would make you dependent. It turned the user into a monster and was required to sustain their new monstrous form. After the transformation was complete, if the wearer was parted from the ring for 72 hours or more they would die.

See if Infernal Healing forced the person benefiting it to make a will save or seek out more it and it had an expensive component that you might have to murder some people to get I would be fine labeling it an evil spell. As is devil blood, smevil mud, healing without really bad side effects ain't evil.

Why is Devil's Blood not evil to you?

Why is Unholy Water not evil?

Evil materials, good effects. Effects > Materials.

-_-

Healing is neither good nor evil.

But to build off of this, if there was a spell that resurrected someone with no negative levels but consumed other people's souls to do so, it wouldn't be evil to you?

Depends on the soul used and the person raised really. If it uses an evil soul, hey, less evil in the world and you bring someone back to life! Sounds like a good act in line with quite a few LG and CG deities. Meanwhile using a good soul denies it its reward in the afterlife, pretty evil if you ask me. It's when the neutral souls get in the mix is when it gets tricky, I don't really have an answer for that one.

Looks up.

Oh...so there is a downside compared to CLW. And as should be expected of Paizo, it doesn't make a lick of sense! "Yes, I'll make a healing spell, and make it not work against the biggest threats to my followers instead of not working against my greatest assets in case they get out of line! This plan is perfect, I'll attract so many followers! ...Why are angels knocking out my new followers and converting them back to the side of good?" Isn't Asmodeus supposed to be a cunning schemer? I'm a mortal with no more than 10 int and wis and the flaw in this is painfully obvious to me, a god from Pathfinder would figure out something better, and given who we're dealing with, would make this baby force a few will saves.

Seriously, that fighter dying in the battlefield, or that orphan just outside of the burning building? Cast some IH on him and let his weak will save draw him to your god's side. As it stands right now you can just smear bad juice on the kid and he'll be fine after a little bit with no repercussions. I can't take it seriously as an evil spell when I can just go around fixing people without repercussions. "You'll turn evil." Yeah, turn evil with no effects on my character's behavior. I'll be back to good within a few adventures, and if that's not enough supplement it with protection from evil a few times. Heck I'll cast it on the kid a few times to get the bad juju out of him.

...The more I talk about it the bigger the missed opportunity I realize it is. It could have been so cool and instead it's really lame.


So I've been thinking and there's a few ways to make infernal healing actually evil.

The spell could only work on evil people. It could also make the body weaker, causing ability damage or sickening the target for 24 hours. The addiction method was also a thing. A will save to resist trying to conquer everything is also fine, though that might be difficult RP wise. Either way, evil s~!!'s supposed to be good in the short term and bad in the long term, so this spell should reflect that in its mechanics.

Of course it would also need a buff on how it heals...and better versions that heal better than the cure equivalent with worse side effects as they go up in level, risk/reward that s#!*!

And of course celestial healing would need reworking as well...Yeesh if I keep this up I might have to head to the homebrew forum to make every aligned spell actually thematic.


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Uh...bards don't need that many rounds of performance unless they're playing 5 songs at once.


Rysky wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Alex Smith 908 wrote:

Really a lot of this comes with how user-friendly magic has become in 3.5/Pathfinder. I don't think Paizo would dare in the modern era to include spells with the possibility to screw with the players if used poorly. When magic is on magic's terms it makes sense for a spell to have a morality in and of itself, but Pathfinder magic is all on the player's terms and thus really just a tool.

There is actually an item specifically from AD&D that does give a reason for fast healing being wrong. The Ring of Gaxx wasn't evil to use but if you used it too much it would make you dependent. It turned the user into a monster and was required to sustain their new monstrous form. After the transformation was complete, if the wearer was parted from the ring for 72 hours or more they would die.

See if Infernal Healing forced the person benefiting it to make a will save or seek out more it and it had an expensive component that you might have to murder some people to get I would be fine labeling it an evil spell. As is devil blood, smevil mud, healing without really bad side effects ain't evil.

Why is Devil's Blood not evil to you?

Why is Unholy Water not evil?

Evil materials, good effects. Effects > Materials.


Alex Smith 908 wrote:

Really a lot of this comes with how user-friendly magic has become in 3.5/Pathfinder. I don't think Paizo would dare in the modern era to include spells with the possibility to screw with the players if used poorly. When magic is on magic's terms it makes sense for a spell to have a morality in and of itself, but Pathfinder magic is all on the player's terms and thus really just a tool.

There is actually an item specifically from AD&D that does give a reason for fast healing being wrong. The Ring of Gaxx wasn't evil to use but if you used it too much it would make you dependent. It turned the user into a monster and was required to sustain their new monstrous form. After the transformation was complete, if the wearer was parted from the ring for 72 hours or more they would die.

See if Infernal Healing forced the person benefiting it to make a will save or seek out more it and it had an expensive component that you might have to murder some people to get I would be fine labeling it an evil spell. As is devil blood, smevil mud, healing without really bad side effects ain't evil.


See in the Ravenloft example the shadow steed created by shadow magic is in constant agony. I say creating a thing that is always in pain is an evil act. I'm assuming the shadow spells all have in depth descriptions of what sort of horrors go on when they're cast. It's not evil because it's evil, it's evil because it's doing bad things.


Remember magic crafting starts at level 3 where money making skills are already starting to lose their kick. By level 5 they're pretty much useless for making money without pausing the adventure for months.


Alex Smith 908 wrote:
Rysky wrote:

So it's only evil if it's addictive? Evil isn't nebulous, it's broad. [I]infernal healing is because it's powered by devils and/or unholy water. Those things are evil. There is absolutely no evidence to the contrary.

"it just said 'hey demon blood is hella addictive and changes your behavior in x way'... you mean like how using a spell over and over will change your alignment and behavior?

Yeah they should have written out the specifics or even just suggestions in the spell itself. After all given all the magic items that are "cast x spell y times per day" and nothing else I know those pages are kinda padded.

Like take familiars in Ravenloft. I have no problem with the idea that all familiars in Ravenloft are evil. The book specifically details that they are the spellcaster's shoulder devil and working to tempt them towards evil. Animate Dead in Ravenloft explicitly go about murdering folks and even the mindless ones have a "cruel intellect" in Ravenloft that causes them to turn on weak-willed wizards. Specifically wizards who animate more undead than their caster level can control. All shadow magic is explicitly evil or at least dangerous because the shadows of Ravenloft are the Dark Powers toy and they don't like other people playing with it. Even the upgraded version of phantom steed was evil because you were creating a creature whose existence was torturous and horrible. Etc

I don't have a problem with the thing being evil. I just have a problem with it being evil solely because "you touched an icky thing" and having an [evil] tag. Hell I was hoping Pathfinder would add something like Ravenloft's powers checks for when someone calls upon supernatural evil in Horror Adventures., but no such luck.

Can I favorite this post multiple times? Please?


Alex Smith 908 wrote:


OD&D- Neutral
BECMI- Neutral
Rulecyclopedia- Neutral
AD&D- Neutral
AD&D2- Neutral
3.0- Neutral
3.5- Neutral Evil
4th- Neutral
4th Essentials- Neutral
5th- Lawful Evil

Them's not very good percentages for it being a "DnD centric" idea.

2 out of 9...argh, I used to be so good at this. It's a bit over 20% though, I know that much.


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Actually they're having liquid evil rubbed on their forehead.


Healstick for wands of CLW. Also CLW for cure light wounds.

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