Building a modern Arcane Trickster


Advice


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So my group is wanting to do a "superhero" game, where everyone makes characters in Pathfinder based off actual heroes (or villans). My question is this: I'm wanting to construct Loki, preferably from an Arcane Trickster.
My only problem is that for theme purposes, he pretty much needs to be a sorcerer, which will already make it more difficult than going wizard. Some of my group is more "oldschool" (as far as Pathfinder goes), and I worry about convincing them of the validity of newer material, but it may be my only hope of getting into the PrC before something ridiculous like 7th or 8th level.

TL;DR share tips for a sorcerer based Arcane Trickster that won't be completely terribad


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I copy this from another thread:
Brawler (Snakebite Striker) 1 / Sorcerer 4 / Arcane Trickster 10
take this feat at lvl 3: Accomplished Sneak Attacker


Are player companions valid/legit or whatever? These guys take convincing to get a single trait in a campaign.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One of these days, I'll write up a guide I can copy-paste for this. I consider myself a pretty big AT fan, so I try to keep up to date with the best entry options. Really excited there has been a lot of buzz lately. Currently, you are looking at:

Start Snakebite Striker Brawler with Variant Multiclass Rogue and the Accomplished Sneak Attacker at 1st level.

Then, take Wizard for 3 levels.
You'll have a Snakebite Striker 1/Wizard 3 that can enter Arcane Trickster. At 7th level (Wizard 3/Brawler 1/Arcane Tricker 3), retrain Snakebite Striker Brawler into Wizard, which will take 7 days and 490 gold. You now have a Wizard 4/Arcane Trickster 3 at 7th level.

In your case, you could delay Arcane Trickster by a level and use Sorcerer or Arcanist instead.

If retraining rules are off the table, another option is to go Sorcerer/Wizard 7 and then AT

Dark Archive

Xethik wrote:

One of these days, I'll write up a guide I can copy-paste for this. I consider myself a pretty big AT fan, so I try to keep up to date with the best entry options. Really excited there has been a lot of buzz lately. Currently, you are looking at:

Start Snakebite Striker Brawler with Variant Multiclass Rogue and the Accomplished Sneak Attacker at 1st level.

Then, take Wizard for 3 levels.
You'll have a Snakebite Striker 1/Wizard 3 that can enter Arcane Trickster. At 7th level (Wizard 3/Brawler 1/Arcane Tricker 3), retrain Snakebite Striker Brawler into Wizard, which will take 7 days and 490 gold. You now have a Wizard 4/Arcane Trickster 3 at 7th level.

In your case, you could delay Arcane Trickster by a level and use Sorcerer or Arcanist instead.

If retraining rules are off the table, another option is to go Sorcerer/Wizard 7 and then AT

I'm loving the AT idea with the VMC rules and Accomplished Sneak Attacker. AT can get off the ground even earlier now so its a win win.


Xethik wrote:

One of these days, I'll write up a guide I can copy-paste for this. I consider myself a pretty big AT fan, so I try to keep up to date with the best entry options. Really excited there has been a lot of buzz lately. Currently, you are looking at:

Start Snakebite Striker Brawler with Variant Multiclass Rogue and the Accomplished Sneak Attacker at 1st level.

Then, take Wizard for 3 levels.
You'll have a Snakebite Striker 1/Wizard 3 that can enter Arcane Trickster. At 7th level (Wizard 3/Brawler 1/Arcane Tricker 3), retrain Snakebite Striker Brawler into Wizard, which will take 7 days and 490 gold. You now have a Wizard 4/Arcane Trickster 3 at 7th level.

In your case, you could delay Arcane Trickster by a level and use Sorcerer or Arcanist instead.

If retraining rules are off the table, another option is to go Sorcerer/Wizard 7 and then AT

Wow that's genius. Now to just convince my DM to let me use this feat and the unchained multiclass rules..


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I haven't had a chance to give it a spin, so please let me know how it goes! I've got a feat/level list on my notepad at home. If I remember, I'll dig that up and give it a post.

Dark Archive

Xethik wrote:
I haven't had a chance to give it a spin, so please let me know how it goes! I've got a feat/level list on my notepad at home. If I remember, I'll dig that up and give it a post.

Most definitely. If I can I will give it a playtest spin as well assuming all goes well.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

I'm not really familiar with Loki from the comics, but a Ninja sounds like it could be better synergy with Sorcerer than Rogue or Brawler. Especially with the Vanishing Trick.


Elfinlocks wrote:
TL;DR share tips for a sorcerer based Arcane Trickster that won't be completely terribad

I'd play that character concept as a Sandman Bard. Fits the Loki theme very well.


Xethik wrote:


If retraining rules are off the table, another option is to go Sorcerer/Wizard 7 and then AT

You won't be able to pick up your Sneak Attack feat until level 9, as you won't have Sneak Attack until level 7, the level VMC eats your feat, meaning you can't qualify early without retraining rules.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CalethosVB wrote:
Xethik wrote:


If retraining rules are off the table, another option is to go Sorcerer/Wizard 7 and then AT
You won't be able to pick up your Sneak Attack feat until level 9, as you won't have Sneak Attack until level 7, the level VMC eats your feat, meaning you can't qualify early without retraining rules.

Good catch! I think at that point it may be best to drop the one spellcaster level to put a level in Snakebite Brawler and drop Variant Multiclassing completely.

Being a level behind is cruddy, but you get plenty of goodies for the dip and prestiging.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Unfortunately, I don't have the right notebook with me, and I'm away from home until the weekend.

If I recall, the feats up to 15 were something like Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Spell Penetration, Improved Familiar, Feint Partner (with Valet familiar or a feint buddy)

This avoids Weapon Finesse, unfortunately. Some people love melee touch attacks and would use this a lot but I was more thinking of a Ray spam. Even more sadly, you don't pick up Spell Focus or any of the good CC metamagics like Dazing Spell with this sort of build. VMC definitely cramps feat choice hard. In the end, the sneak attack might not be worth and Wizard 3/Snakebite 1 (or Rogue 1 for more skill focus) with Magical Knack may be a better overall build. Really not sure at this point. I suppose it depends on what exactly you are going for!


I don't seem to have access to the Accomplished Sneak Attacker link. Can someone cite the source so I can look it up?


Prerequisites: Sneak Attack class feature
Benefit: +1 Sneak Attack die, max dice for SA = 1 die per 1/2 your hit dice.


CalethosVB wrote:

Prerequisites: Sneak Attack class feature

Benefit: +1 Sneak Attack die, max dice for SA = 1 die per 1/2 your hit dice.

What book is it from?


If I said Dirty Tactics Toolbox is what I remember seeing advertised, I still wouldn't be able to tell you that with 100% surety. I could access the feat at work but now can't at home.

Dark Archive

It is in fact Dirty Tactics Toolbox. For some reason the that link is locked behind some permissions, I know it wasnt earlier today when this topic was posted.


If you had 1d6 Sneak Attack, would you even be able to get Accomplished Sneak Attacker at 3rd level? You don't yet have enough hit dice for half your hit dice to be 2. I suppose you could say that you can take the feat but it doesn't kick in until 4th level, but in general, Pathfinder feats seem to be designed not to allow you to get feats that you can't use right away (apart from feats that just don't work due to errors in design).

On a related note, if you go Knifemaster Rogue instead of Snakebite Striker Brawler (or almost anything else), does the alteration in size of your Sneak Attack dice (d9 for Daggers and Starknives, d4 for everything else) carry over into Sneak Attack dice gained from other sources (including Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Vivisectionist Alchemist, and Arcane Trickster).


Sneak Attack from different sources stack. It's not like you pick up 3 different classes worth of Sneak Attack and have to decide which class to use to determine how many Sneak Attack dice you use. If one says you use d8s for daggers, then all your Sneak Attacks from all your different classes convince to be d8s on daggers. Like an Orc/Draconic Sorcerer that grants his Wizard fire spells +2 per die of damage.


it rounds up.

yes it does


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It appears content from the Dirty Tactic's Toolbox has been locked from d20pfsrd. It will probably reopen once the book is released to non-subscribers. It is the usual courtesy to wait.

As for taking Accomplished Sneak Attacker with it doing nothing, I'll point out that Combat Casting does not require spell casting. Nor does Extend Spell. It's odd, but not unheard of, for a character to take a "worthless" feat.


So to do the arcane trickster you have to use spells to attack touch AC right? since your BAB will be so low from all the magic classes that hitting normally wouldn't work, right?
which means you're either in melee doing touch spells, or only getting the one ranged attack in the surprise round correct?


If your DM allows the dirty tricks book (a very big IF at most tables given that it allows you to do away with two levels of rogue and is a splatbook) then you are more or less playing a full caster with some rogue skills and sneak attack. Treat the character as you would an orthodox wizard or sorcerer in terms of their development.

If they don't allow the dirty tricks book (personally I wouldn't allow that feat) there is also the sap master approach for certain foes - works wonderfully with the Ki Arrow spell.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:

So to do the arcane trickster you have to use spells to attack touch AC right? since your BAB will be so low from all the magic classes that hitting normally wouldn't work, right?

which means you're either in melee doing touch spells, or only getting the one ranged attack in the surprise round correct?

You can also deny dex through a multitude of ways and Sneak Attack off that. I'm a big fan of Feint Partner with a Valet familiar, but there's also stuff like being invisible, blinding your opponent with Mudball (familiar with a wand readying an action to do so works great), or applying any other status effect that denies dex (I'm thinking Pinned and Stunned do, but perhaps I'm forgetting details there). Oh, and Impromptu Sneak Attack will do alright for you a couple times per day.

There is a metamagic feat in Dirty Tactic's Toolbox that allows you to Dirty Trick your opponent. That could be pretty useful, too.

Scarab Sages

If you have access to Occult Adventures (which is almost mandatory for a superhero themed game with the kineticist) then the Mesmerist is a much better fit for Loki than a Bard or an Arcane Trickster.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
If you have access to Occult Adventures (which is almost mandatory for a superhero themed game with the kineticist) then the Mesmerist is a much better fit for Loki than a Bard or an Arcane Trickster.

Yeah, I can definitely agree with this. Good call!


CalethosVB wrote:
Sneak Attack from different sources stack. It's not like you pick up 3 different classes worth of Sneak Attack and have to decide which class to use to determine how many Sneak Attack dice you use. If one says you use d8s for daggers, then all your Sneak Attacks from all your different classes convince to be d8s on daggers. Like an Orc/Draconic Sorcerer that grants his Wizard fire spells +2 per die of damage.

I know that the stack -- the question is HOW they stack. If you have Snakebite Striker Brawler 1/Knife Master Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster 2, do you get total Sneak Attack 3d8 when using knives and 3d4 otherwise, or 1d8 + 2d6 when using knives and 1d4 + 2d6 otherwise? (And if the answer is a mixture, how do you figure out which die Accomplished Sneak Attacker uses?)

Scarab Sages

UnArcaneElection wrote:


I know that the stack -- the question is HOW they stack. If you have Snakebite Striker Brawler 1/Knife Master Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster 2, do you get total Sneak Attack 3d8 when using knives and 3d4 otherwise, or 1d8 + 2d6 when using knives and 1d4 + 2d6 otherwise? (And if the answer is a mixture, how do you figure out which die Accomplished Sneak Attacker uses?)

3d8 when using knives and 3d4 otherwise. Knife Master Rogue is not a good idea if you are planning on entering Arcane Trickster.


^You're right -- I forgot that the spell Sneak Attack damage is going to be d4s unless you go the VMC Magus route and use Spellstrike with a knife (but this means no VMC Rogue Sneak Attack progression -- we really need an Arcane Trickster archetype of Magus or Bard, and Greensting Slayer and Sandman just don't cut it for this purpose . . . And Greensting Slayer seems very underwhelming anyway).


Well, with that dirty trick tactics feat that increases your sneak by 1d6 (but not higher than a rogue of your level) you can actually easily qualify by lvl 5 with either bard or magus by lvl 5 (and losing only 1 spell level) or even with wizard by lvl 4 (and again only losing 1 lvl).

Using snakebiter brawler instead of rogue you could go wiz3/snakebiter2 and go in with +2 feats and +3 bab which is cool.
Or you could go with urogue and get free finesse (but only +1 bab @4)

Shadow Lodge

Any of this pfs legal?


By the way, why can't I access the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat without logging into google? Seems wierd. What's the source for the feat?


The Dragon wrote:
By the way, why can't I access the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat without logging into google? Seems wierd. What's the source for the feat?

the source is dirty tactics handbook

the reason you can't access ANY content from that book is because pfsrd make a mistake when they uploaded, and they uploaded earlir than allowed. so they had to take everything down, and it will come back online when the 2week grace period for subscribers is over

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Building a modern Arcane Trickster All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.