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Shameless plug for my Fighter Unchained thread... Without blowing my own trumpet, I genuinely think a couple of small tweaks solve a fair few issues...
Yes that summarises the archetype perfectly!
Rite Publishing's Secrets of Divine Channeling does (IMHO) a lot to fix channeling by adding additional effects based on the chosen Domains. Basically a much stronger version of Variant Channeling. For example, channeling the Darkness Domain snuffs out all nearby lights, while channeling the Repose Domain prevents nearby corpses from animating. There are also more powerful effects that kick in at higher levels, in addition to a bunch of "meta-Channel" feats. Variant Channeling is analogous to Paizo general relationship with cleric/class abilities..... Great idea, very poor execution So many of the abilities are just weak and have such a short duration that they aren't worth it. Its weird with channeling, Paizo just dont see it.... why would you invest ability score points and feats that you dont have, in something that scales so poorly and is such a poor substitute for actual spells?!!
Yes but Shaman uses cleric list for its FCB.... I really dont think Warpriest or Inquisitor need Unchaining as they always come across as largely well balanced and designed classes. And its extremely unlikely that Warpriest would be Unchained due to the fact that it is a relatively new class. Yes you could just give over the cleric list to the Oracle, thats true. But then my issue is that realistically are Paizo likely to dedicate space to a new class spell list that will in all likelihood contain a large % of the Oracle list anyway? I doubt it...
With all these discussions, there always has to be a balance between idealism and realism... It would be great if each deity was more specific in terms of what it offered clerics but then that in itself would involve re-writing a huge quantity of Paizo material. Are they likely to do that? Some Unchaining of the D8 cleric could definitely be done with minimum fuss but any significant design ideas could IMO only be realistically implemented in a new D6 class, which by definition would have to be different enough from the D8 class to justify its existence.
Yup and then straight after, get to the chopper!
Out of the 3 threads I've done for Unchaining (Fighter, Cleric, Ninja).... Cleric has both the greatest challenges but also the greatest potential. The biggest problem in terms of Unchaining D8 cleric is that its main class features are firmly embedded in other classes, making wholesale changes almost impossible. 1) The spell list is directly used by cleric, oracle, warpriest and shaman... you cannot just rip it up and start again!! It has to stay as is regardless of the potential benefits of a redesign. 2) Channeling is also accessible by several classes now and so again presents obstacles in terms of re-design. The only possibility IMO under an Unchaining would be to give the cleric only an option to trade out the existing channeling set up completely in favour of other abilities. This way any changes only affect the cleric in isolation and have no impact on other classes. Changing the existing channeling set up just creates knock on effects in terms of balancing other classes. 3) Domains - to a lesser degree, are also accessible to other classes (druids and inquisitors). Thus changes to spells and/or domain abilities also has problematic knock on effects. Again there would have to be a way of making changes in isolation. Possible but tricky - for example it would have to be made clear that 12th level domain powers were only available to clerics or something like that!) Taking all the above into consideration, 2 approaches are needed IMO: 1) Unchaining the D8 cleric should revolve around modular options to limit impact on other classes but also to give options to the cleric... eg) choice of spontaneous heal/harm or spontaneous domains, channeling or dice pool for augmenting spells, armour/shield vs bonus feats... etc 2) New D6 class - this would allow design from a fresh canvas as it would be a distinct entity from the D8 cleric. It would still be largely based around the cleric spell list but other class abilities could be introduced without worries over impact on other classes.
eh... it probably wouldn't be so bad if they couldn't get armor from anywhere else. Exactly, they are quite literally incapable of wearing physical armour. Doing so completely removes ALL powers. Even a Wiz can get magically enhanced mithral bucker and armoured kilt to rack up some useful AC! I would say its entirely appropriate for the class..... the ROBED holy man. To make it different from the D8 you would have to remove armour and shield. And you always have to bear in mind that there is no Mage Armour! I suppose you could instead do a divine/profane bonus to AC = 1/2 class level (slightly weaker over 20 levels) If it has no armour, no shield and no way of improving its AC significantly.... things will get messy quickly!
I always liked the Evangelist. Its OK but nothing special... the loss of 3D6 channel effectively kills off channeling completely and the spontaneous casting options are only meh! It tends to get used a lot due largely to the terrible cleric alternatives! Again Paizo's weird channeling thing/delusion.... channeling use is only just barely useful in certain situations and even the slightest weakening is enough to invalidate it completely. Hence why I've always thought when designing archetypes it should either have its function boosted somehow (eg Herald Caller) or completely removed and traded for something decent. No half measures!
According to many... Batman (Animated Series) is considered the definitive portrayal of Batman, Joker et al...and I largely second this. Although I would agree she isnt super clever (ie Joker level) she is capable of having what I would call 'Moments of Genius' where she does something completely unexpected (even throwing Batman/Joker off guard) and that has a profound effect on whatever dodgy situation she is in. These moments can manifest in a physical way or in a bizarre tactical way. Don't know how you could translate that into PF?
Intelligent but naive.... she cant help falling for Mr J !!! :))
Honestly, I'd like it at the D8 Cleric more than the D6 Priest class, because that's where AC is any useful. My rationale for it being better suited to a D6 class was mainly because I envisaged the D6 class to be completely unable to use physical armour or shields (like Ecclesitheurge)..... like even worse than Wiz & Sorc who at least can use mithral bucklers, arcane armour training... etc
Something I've wanted to do for a while is play an unarmoured Inquisitor or Cleric, while still being able to engage in melee (because it's cool). So how about an archetype or other way to gain Wis to AC instead of armour proficency? Even if it was an armour bonus (thus also superiorly sub-par to medium or even light armour), I'd love that. A WIS to AC would be great for a D6 priest class... Even if a D6 divine class emerged, the Wiz/Sorc would obviously have to retain the best overall spell list, but something like this would be good to provide a different balancing factor and a way to differentiate from the D8 cleric....
So here's the lowdown on the Mythos Cultist amazingly worthwhile (*coughchokesplutter*) WIS damage ability They are all standard action, single living target, 30 foot range. Useage: 1/day at 5th and one extra use every 3 levels 5th level: 2 points of wisdom dmg + confusion and sickened for 1d4 rounds at 5th lvl. Will save negates. 11th level: 1d6+1 wisdom dmg + confused and sickened for 2d4 rounds. Will save reduces to 1 wisdom dmg and sickened for 1d6 rounds. 19th lvl: 2d6 wisdom damage and the target is permanently confused and sickened. Greater restoration, heal, limited wish, wish, or miracle can release the sickened and confused condition. Will save negates. This replaces the channel upgrades at 5th, 11th and 19th lvl. And here are my overall thoughts Well I have to say the Mythos Cultist is just plain bad....and very disappointing IMO, especially since the cleric only got 1 archetype whilst others got 3! 1) Making channeling more viable (a highly dubious idea in the first place) and then stripping 3D6 off the top just makes it doubly pointless. Variant channeling becomes the default/only option... bad news since theyre just not remotely worth the action economy. Also you're obliged to spend a feat due to the emphasis (which the cleric has very few of in the first place) in order to get Selective Channel. 2)The 19th level ability is a waste because: a) You're well into 9th level spell territory anyway.... infinitely better options have long been available b) The conditions can be removed by almost any half decent caster c) Will negates 3) The lower level abilities are barely useful and due to the standard action/limited use per day/single target/Will negates will rarely get any useage. 4) A bog standard cleric of a GOO/OG can easily be built to be a more effective cultist than the cultist archetype itself!... NEVER a good sign! 5) Just overall the trade offs in general are REALLY imbalanced...I'm seriously thinking of going part time as a chemist and then part time as an archetype designer! ;)) Another tombstone has appeared in the Graveyard of Cleric Archetypes; and as on the others it reads...'Great idea, very poor execution'....RIP
The issue was more that divine classes have somehow cornered the market on healing, I was stating that this isnt the case. Also that you dont need a 'healer' in the party as a specific role.....it has associations with 'Healbot'!!!
Condition removal is not exclusively divine and anyway thats why people walk around with decent UMD and scrolls of lesser restoration!
Well I have to say the Mythos Cultist is just plain bad....and very disappointing IMO, especially since the cleric only got 1 archetype whilst others got 3! 1) Making channeling more viable (a highly dubious idea in the first place) and then stripping 3D6 off the top just makes it doubly pointless. Variant channeling becomes the default/only option... bad news since theyre just not remotely worth the action economy. Also you're obliged to spend a feat due to the emphasis (which the cleric has very few of in the first place) in order to get Selective Channel. 2)The 19th level ability is a waste because: a) You're well into 9th level spell territory anyway.... infinitely better options have long been available b) The conditions can be removed by almost any half decent caster c) Will negates 3) The lower level abilities are barely useful and due to the standard action/limited use per day/single target/Will negates will rarely get any useage. 4) A bog standard cleric of a GOO/OG can easily be built to be a more effective cultist than the cultist archetype itself!... NEVER a good sign! 5) Just overall the trade offs in general are REALLY imbalanced...I'm seriously thinking of going part time as a chemist and then part time as an archetype designer! ;))
But still... Another tombstone has appeared in the Graveyard of Cleric Archetypes; and as on the others it reads...'Great idea, very poor execution'....RIP
Non-magical means of dealing with restoration-level maladies or no buy. Divine magic's exclusive lock on healing is one of the biggest issues of this game and needs to be addressed. 1) Wands of CLW have long replaced the need for a 'healer' 2) Loads of classes have ways to access healing spells 3) If anything the reverse is true, divine magic has virtually no 'lock ins'
Much app for the info.... how does the general useage work? Uses per day? Single target, close range, SR..? etc
Will save to negate?
Will save to negate?
What are the details of the Mythos Cultist wisdom damage ability? Cheers
I disagree and the fact that such a key point hasn't been officially clarified does at the very least give significant ambiguity. Like the author of the Shaman Handbook said... if it isnt the case then the door is wide open for clerics and druids to grab an Arcane Bond via Eldritch Heritage....
Wis Damage could be pretty great, actually, as anything that can penalize Will Saves is good, and honestly there is a huge precedence for Wis relating to sanity. The keys are when can this actually be done (5th level is not too good), and if it can be resisted/negated. I disagree - what you always have to consider when talking about 'abilities' is opportunity cost. The WIS damage ability (whatever the specifics may be) has to be a good enough option so as to overlook others available. Lets say its a standard action, single target, close range ability, no SR but a save (a reasonable assumption).... even a -6 WIS effect only equates to a -3 on Will saves. Can I do better with my existing spells/abilities?.... 90-95% of the time you bet!! Ergo....a very poor trade off considering what has been given up. I have not seen the Archetype, so can't say really how it's themed. But, I'd say a cultist that can't use much in the way of armor or arms would probably stand out as a pretty bad hidden cultist. Why? Its not like everyone walks around with armour and a shield?! I'll reserve judgement, but not optimistic. I havent seen the full details myself either, but there is a whole lot of precedent not to be hopeful!
Nope.... one of the very few classes (perhaps only?) that only got one archetype. Looking back again at the info leaked out, this archetype is actually pretty terrible..... like almost into the realms of Appeaser, Cardinal and Cloistered Cleric terrible!! Being able to inflict WIS damage as a PC on monsters is pretty insignificant when you think about it... :( And yet again, it didnt touch armour or shield proficiencies.... even though 'Cultist' SCREAMS no armour. The archetype actually screws up 2 in 1.... a really imaginative, promising concept like a Mythos Cultist and a channeling focussed cleric. You basically have to spend a feat straight away in order to make use of the channeling. Its actually almost laughable.... a basic cleric of a GOO/OG who takes Dreamed Secrets (which ironically is a tricky option for the Mythos Cultist due to its CHA emphasis) absolutely trounces the archetype at its own game! As my Irish colleague would say..."Jeeesus, Mary and Joseph Paizo.... You couldn't organise a *&%$ up in the Guinness factory!"
I could of course be wrong.... but it says that the Spirit Magic slots are a Shamans spontaneous casting slots and thus represent the selection of spells that a "shaman knows"... The FCB adds spells... to "the list of spells the shaman knows" Plus, I was surfing around the other day and came across the following guide by someone very knowledgeable and regarded....Shaman Handbook Like I said I could be wrong but it seems clear IMO. In particular it makes an excellent point regarding all Clerics and Druids running around with Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) for an Arcane Bond to cast their entire spell list spontaneously..... Clerics and Druids do not "know" their lists. You have to remember that Shamans are a hybrid class... a mix of prepared and spontaneous.
Careful choosing is key... AON is great for seeing all the options, although these days its really slow to update. Remember the cleric spells chosen can only be used in the Spirit Magic slots. You have to take the Water Spirit hex to get round it. Add one spell from the cleric spell list that isn’t on the shaman spell list to the list of spells the shaman knows. This spell must be at least 1 level below the highest spell level the shaman can cast.
Some excellent suggestions ideas here... Well I do hate to say it... but I told you so regarding the latest 'attempt' at a cleric archetype Mythos Cultist GAINS +2 on certain knowledge skills
LOSES One entire domain
Its bizarre it really is... exactly like I was saying previously regarding channeling, Paizo keep on flogging that dead horse!! Having more uses of something thats terrible DOES NOT EQUAL good archetype design! You can make a basic cleric of a GOO/OG a more effective archetype than this archetype! What can I say..!
Only one archetype? I thought everyone was supposed to get 2? We'll have to disagree on this one I fear... its quite a significant downgrade IMO The problem with the channeling "boost".... is that channeling is a pretty dire ability in the first place, even with CHA as casting stat!
We have a saying where I come from in England...."You cant polish a &^%$." Oh well....moving on - is the Gingerbread Witch as fun as it sounds? And I gather we have an INT based Inquisitor?
Cheers for the info Hmmm.... bit of a let down IMO, a real missed opportunity...oh well! Leaving aside other probs, mind affecting effects do make up a big chunk of Will based saves! What is the other cleric archetype about? What do you reckon to the book overall? Am still waiting to get my hands on the hardback here in the UK! :(( Ps I hear the Cult Hunter is pretty funky!
A couple of things: 1) Whats the lowdown on the druid archetypes? 2) For the Mythos Cultist would this be a reasonable summary? GAINS +2 on certain knowledge skills
LOSES One entire domain
Kudos for the work.... but in my mind the D10 BAB just doesnt fit. The ninja is a very slight, slim individual with a focus on agility and precision than muscle and stamina. Light armoured/no-armoured and definitely no shield
I hope I'm not coming off as to negative or antagonistic, which isn't my intent. Rather, I'm trying to have a meaningful conversation, and to see if anything anyone says might make me rethink my opinion or show me something I didn't see. Honestly, the biggest obstacle I see in the Cleric ever being fixed or improved is how many nearly exact opposite views there are on what is wrong or needs to be done. No of course not... dont apologise for having an opinion! You are right, it is a strange one. When I did my 'Fighter Unchained' thread it was very clear what areas needed work. But with 'Cleric Unchained' the opinions are wider and more varied. Its is clear though that something needs changing in a big way. Paizo seem to be trying the rather ineffective 'stick a plaster on it' approach with the cleric, the classic example being channeling.
So many aspects of the clerics role have gone - even healing can now be effectively done by several other classes. We will have to agree to disagree on the battle cleric thing - I have seen several others post in threads that nowadays the worst build for a cleric is battle! The Oracle is completely wrong for the D6 role thematically. The robed holy man is a devout worshipper who sacrifices their life in the worship and teachings of their one god. Oracles dont need to do anything to gain their powers....no preaching, no holy symbology, no places of worship, no religous ceremony or texts, not even praying!!!! The complete antithesis of what the D6 holy man represents in all cultural references.... and there are many, many people who would like to see a D6 divine class. In fact the D6 divine class is very widely 3PP'd and homebrewed... probably more so than any other concept.
I really don't think that the regular cleric can cover for the unarmoured D6 priest. It's not a matter of build or priority. Just like how you can't build an unarmoured, sword wielding dude from a Fighter; all you've done is impair yourself by removing armour. I largely agree....the Ecclesitheurge had the right idea but sadly was poorly executed. I suspect that Paizo will probably continue to churn out disfunctional cleric archetypes and thus maintain the bland, boring and stale cleric staus quo. I also think that it's weird that a cleric of Iomedae and Norgorber are about the same, mechanics wise. Due to the lack of substance in most cleric archetypes things like this tend to happen
Well I coughed up for a half share in the hardbook and now the wait begins.....
I really do not see a need for a cloth Cleric, since that can already be handled with the base Cleric and choices, and really isn't what the Cleric is supposed to be anyway. The huge problem is though that the original concept of the cleric has been made completely redundant In my opinion, the Oracle class makes a better white mage style priest anyway. I'd actually much rather see the Class start taking some ground back from the other divine warriors, (Inquisitor, Warpriest, and even Paladin) and finally find a solid niche. Something more like a combat medic/holy knight the class concept was based on. I just cant see it happening, the martial side of things is so completely entrenched with Warpriest, Inquisitor, Paladin that there would be no point. Any changes would reek havoc! The 'gap in the market' is that of the more caster cleric and/or D6 priest. And ironically this is probably the most thematic too since literature from all cultures is full of references to unarmoured holy men wielding divine power. This role really isnt suited to an Oracle because these men are always full of righteous conviction in the supremacy of their ONE true god..... a concept largely at odds with that of the Oracle.
As part of my 'Unchained Cleric' idea, I would have potentially have this as a new D6 divine caster. Archivist was WIS and INT based
There's a guy at work that reckons he'll have his hard copy in 4 days... that cannot be right surely?!?!
My idea for using Kuju-in was three-fold and most definitely distinct from a kineticist - my idea really wasnt for a hybrid type class: 1) In Kuji-in the thumb represents the source of power Ku (void), and the fingers represent the four elemental manifestations. They are Chi (earth – solids), Sui (water – liquids), Ka (fire – combustion) and Fu (wind – gases). Each of these would have a pool of abilities that could be taken at either any level or at specific levels, for some of the more powerful abilities. However, none of these abilities would be directly offensive in nature and would be more to do with assisting the ninja in their primary roles of assassination, sabotage, reconnaissance... etc. There would be no kinetic 'blasts'. Eg) For a ninja with fire as their source of power, they could create a Wall of Ash (similar to cleric domain) and explosive devices rather than lob out Fireballs or Walls of Fire 2) The use of ninja hand signs. The base ninja would get fixed access to specific hand sign abilities at certain levels. The 9 primary hand signs are Rin, Hei, Toh, Sha, Kai, Jin, Retsu, Zai, and Zen. Each symbol invokes different strengths and abilities in a trained ninja. So a base ninja might get 1 minor power from each of these between Lv 1-20. 3)Ninja archetypes could then represent specialists in specific hand signs. This combined with the original choice of one of the 5 sources of power gives 45 possible combinations! Eg) A 'Sha' (or suitable name) ninja with void as their source of power would be an archteype focussed on healing and condition removal/prevention of itself (scaling in power from 1-20) whilst at the same time gaining abilities from its void source. This was a big reason for wanting to make Unchained ninja a D6 (but possibly still 3/4 BAB)class. I really wanted to incorporate Kuji-in heavily..... and so needed to make some trades! The class could still get its rogue style sneak attack bonuses but I wanted it to be clearly distinct and much more funky!! :)))
My personal preference is: Minimum - Unchained cleric Ideal - Unchained cleric + new D6 divine class (thus giving the D6 - D10 range of options) Similar to what happened with Unchained monk, it could well render many archetypes unuseable but I would be fine with this, as the vast majority are either good ideas but poorly executed (eg Theologian, Undead Lord, Ecclesitheurge, Divine Scourge) or just plain crap (Cloistered Cleric, Cardinal, Appeaser, Scroll Scholar).
If you really don't like the obvious ninja as rogue archetype solution the thing to do is probably to completely de-rogue it. This is what I was thinking. But I wanted to really focus on the Kuji-in So you would start by choosing your 'Source of Power' - earth, water, fire, wind or void. This would then grant you certain level based abilities and 'spells'.... although these would function as either SLA or SU, and be purely somatic in nature (in keeping with the idea thematically).
I definitely agree that bonus feats should be bonus feats... it would enable some nice fighter customisation.
Ah, sorry, I thought this thread still discussed Unchaining/nerfing the Cleric and not Archetypes. There are some on this thread who believe that the cleric doesnt need 'Unchaining'...merely decent archetype design. There are others who believe that 'too much water has flowed under the bridge'..... and it needs Unchaining. There are pros and cons on both sides I guess!
And that's why it's not a good idea. But if you want to create meaningful cleric archetypes you have to. Its Paizo's reluctance to significantly trade out the clerics class abilities that result in the poor archetypes generally available. Or if they do they greatly underestimate the values and/or do half measures. In most cases.... you generally end up back at square 1.... playing a bland, boring cleric.
But if youre trying to breathe life into one of (if not the) blandest classes in the game via an archetype.... you have to remove them to greater or lesser degree IMO. And what is almost always forgotten when discussing clerics and archetypes is: 1) That they are feat starved already! So removing med armour and shield IS A BIG DEAL.... you can't just say "Oh you can just get them back with proficiencies...it doesnt matter...etc". Spending a feat for a cleric is a huge investment! 2) Related to the above, the clerics main class ability - channeling, is also massively feat (and stat) reliant. When you combine the 2 above points.... clerics arent just feat starved, they are feat emaciated!
Sounds like an EPIC encounter!!
Looks like we will just agree to disagree on domains and armour.... You cant just blithely say "Oh removing med armour and shield doesnt count"!!! They are worth feats... they ALWAYS count! The loss of AC ALWAYS counts. The loss of a domain ALWAYS counts. According to your logic we should just remove Mage Armour as a spell for wizards??! And taking a dip in anything is a massive deal for a full caster... and certainly not a justification for saying "Oh removing med armour and shield doesnt count!" Again to according to your logic we should make wizards D4 again... after all they shouldnt be near the fighting and can just dip a couple of fighter levels to get some HP anyway....! Part of the reason why Ecclesitheurge struggles to work is that the complete removal of armour and shield (and critically the inability to regain the proficiency) combined with the other stuff just isnt balanced. Removing med armour, light armour, shield = worth feats/equivalent ability Removing med armour, light armour, shield + inability to gain proficiency = worth feats/equivalent ability + This is cold maths... no ifs buts or maybes. We clearly come from 2 very different school regarding the notion of balance
Part of my reasoning for wanting to do a D6 (but 3/4 BAB) ninja was so as to quite heavily incorporate Kuji-in - the fabled 'ninja magic', into the design. This could be used to mitigate the loss of HP but also to provide an excellent template for archetype design, something that the current ninja sorely lacks. The combination of sources of power and mystic hand signs could be great. It could still be done with a D8 HD but you wouldnt be able to get as much mileage out of it. It would be flavourtastic!
I'm not suggesting lowering BAB... hence the mix'n'match comment
Dont get me wrong I'm not remotely saying that changing to a D6 HD is the only way to Unchain the ninja... far from it. Merely that with correct design it could be done with relatively little fuss. In essence I think the reason why ninja has been left behind is because people view it as being 'a bit like the rogue' whereas I think it really needs to be distanced from the rogue and given its own identity, rather than just a kinda sorta dressed in black rogue-type thing....
I'll just leave this here... Huge kudos for all the hard work but I dont think the fighter needs that much of a rework
Melf's Acid Arrow 3.5e Harm
That level of Unchaining could IMO only be justified if creating a new D6 class. And would I think be essential in order to make it distinct from the cleric.
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