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Me neutral good Troll. Why? Me read what happen after die in Golarion.
Ick Ick Ick
Abaddon (Neutral Evil): Get hunted by big Daemons. Best case is you evolve like Pokemon but still daemons catch and eat.
Hell (Lawful Evil): Tortured then do paperwork. If approved become wimpy Devil fire stuns. Other Devils laugh at you and throw fire.
Abyss (Chaotic Evil): Eat and eat as a worm. Eventually become a demon. Like Very Hungry Catepillar but turn into disgusting Dretch.
Petitioner eaten or become low rank Devil or Demon. Not sure which worse. Nobody smart be evil.
Blerg Blerg Blerg
Purgatory (Neutral): Become skeleton, earn becoming Aeon.
Limbo (Chaotic Neutral): Bobbly wallowing then become Protean.
Heaven (Lawful Good): Janitor in heaven then become Archon.
Elysium (Chaotic Good): You be hedonist then become Azata.
Any sound fun to you? Butterfly Girl sound nice until realize spend eternity running errands as underpaid musician.
Runner Up
Utopia (Lawful Neutral): Riddles on skin. Decipher to become smart Inevitable.
Me Troll. Me appreciate regeneration. But even Troll not want be smarty pants for eternity. "Me not robot servant, me wise advisor pain in hiney! Oooh, me go fight chaos army even if CR 2!"
Best
Nirvana (Neutral Good): Become animal. Seek and achieve true enlightenent. Become wise Agathion who avoids combat danger.
Guaranteed eternity as cross between Enlightened Master and Cheshire Cat? Woot. Sign me up. No other destiny come close.
So who me worship? Lots neutral good deities. As mendicant fraternal suave athlete Troll me have shrine to Kurgess cause me like travel, like sports, like Cayden Cailean parties, and like spontaneous fun with Desna girls.
Hum i quite like the CG , so i think i will stay with it :P.
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Troll seems to have missed the point entirely. Take a normal troll. Big, ugly, CE to the core. Likes mainly three things in life: Eating, hurting people, and tooth and nail fighting. Fun, wholesome fun for the whole family.
Now... let's say such a troll understands what is coming for him in the afterlife. The pharasman cleric, intestines already torn out, says: "You stupid troll! Keep this up, and you'll end up in a place where you will do nothing but eat, hurt people, and fight tooth and nail with others for ALL ETERNITY!"
Three guesses what they troll will think about this?
At least some people know for sure where they're going to go...
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Interesting, but few have an objective look on things...
Abaddon (Neutral Evil): Get hunted by big Daemons. Best case is you evolve like Pokemon but still daemons catch and eat.
The strong always become stronger, Spaz. As a daemon you will grow in power until you make THEM flee from YOU - after all, you are the mighty Spaz! You will crush the first lowly deamon to approach you, and rise through the ranks swiftly and mercilessly!
Hell (Lawful Evil): Tortured then do paperwork. If approved become wimpy Devil fire stuns. Other Devils laugh at you and throw fire.
Spaz, my dear Spaz, such are not the fate of those who make prior arrangements! You just need to sign here...and here and here...and we can fast-track you to the role in which you are perfectly suited: you are a mighty warrior, and a place in Hell's army is yours for the taking. Obviously we cannot make you a general to begin with but with your impressive skills you will swiflty rise through the ranks...
Abyss (Chaotic Evil): Eat and eat as a worm. Eventually become a demon. Like Very Hungry Catepillar but turn into disgusting Dretch.
Ha! That is the fate of the weak, the half-hearted, the barely-truely-evil! YOU, Spaz, will become the mightiest all-devouring worm in the Abyss, and will consume everything to evolve swiftly into a great demon! And think of all the sheer power and ecstasy you will have to do to achieve this!
Petitioner eaten or become low rank Devil or Demon. Not sure which worse. Nobody smart be evil.
Foolish dim-witted Troll! Evil is the alignment of the clever and confident - everyone would be evil save those who lack the brains to be free, and the confidence and courage to ask. All those not evil are weaklings who have sold out and drunk the cool-aid of those that prefer to rule docile fools...
Purgatory (Neutral): Become skeleton, earn becoming Aeon.
Cast loose each layer of your being and ascend to perfection. What could be more?
Limbo (Chaotic Neutral): Bobbly wallowing then become Protean.
Total freedom of form and spirit! No constraints of form, no rules to obey! Who wouldn't want that?
Heaven (Lawful Good): Janitor in heaven then become Archon.
It is an honour to serve the great hosts of heaven, to be part of the great design and follow the will of the perfect. All right-thinking being follow this path of strength of strength and compassion.
Elysium (Chaotic Good): You be hedonist then become Azata.
Ecstasy and the endless ability to create art and beauty and music! This is the great reward for a life well-lived!
Any sound fun to you? Butterfly Girl sound nice until realize spend eternity running errands as underpaid musician.
Money is over-rated anyway - after all, you can't take it with you...
Utopia (Lawful Neutral): Riddles on skin. Decipher to become smart Inevitable.
The quest to ultimate perfection.
Nirvana (Neutral Good): Become animal. Seek and achieve true enlightenent. Become wise Agathion who avoids combat danger.
You have chosen wisely, Spaz. Your quest will indeed take you to enlightenment.
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Krom the Barbarian worship gods that help him achieve victory and if they won't help? Then to HELL with them!
Krom have druid friend to reincarnate Krom. So him effectively immortal anyway.
What Krom alignment you ask? NONE YOU BUSINESS! This why Krom regularly eat lead paint, this make Krom undetectable to magic.
All alignments/religions are foolish. Eternal existence is hell. You either get bored and stuck in your ways or you continually/periodically forget everything you experienced.
Like a choice of being in a retirement home for all eternity or having dementia for all eternity.
Me? I'm gonna arrange some way to destroy my soul or find rest some time after death.
If you want your soul destroyed, just ask a Daemon to eat it.
Let's see what happens to big ugly troll above. He is finally killed by something bigger and uglier. He tells Pharasma he wants to go to NG afterlife. She has a bad day or something, and big ugly troll becomes a big ugly racoon in the afterlife. This racoon never finds anyone who wants to fight, food is free for the taking, and he is taken in by an agathion who thinks he is cute. Thousands of years later, his soul dissolves out of massive boredom.
Hmm... so I'm going to serve in Heaven for awhile, before evolving and becoming a flying ball of light that shoots laser beams of death...
Not a bad fate.
Troll seems to have missed the point entirely. Take a normal troll. Big, ugly, CE to the core. Likes mainly three things in life: Eating, hurting people, and tooth and nail fighting. Fun, wholesome fun for the whole family.
Now... let's say such a troll understands what is coming for him in the afterlife. The pharasman cleric, intestines already torn out, says: "You stupid troll! Keep this up, and you'll end up in a place where you will do nothing but eat, hurt people, and fight tooth and nail with others for ALL ETERNITY!"
Three guesses what they troll will think about this?
You left out the fourth thing troll like, but you have to ask Phil and Dixie about what that is.
Mammon Cultist
Let's see what happens to big ugly troll above. He is finally killed by something bigger and uglier. He tells Pharasma he wants to go to NG afterlife. She has a bad day or something, and big ugly troll becomes a big ugly racoon in the afterlife. This racoon never finds anyone who wants to fight, food is free for the taking, and he is taken in by an agathion who thinks he is cute. Thousands of years later, his soul dissolves out of massive boredom.
Thousands of years? Hah, I give it about two weeks.
Heaven (Lawful Good): Janitor in heaven then become Archon.
Wrong, there are no janitors in Heaven, their $#!* don't stink. :)
Hell (Lawful Evil): Tortured then do paperwork. If approved become wimpy Devil fire stuns. Other Devils laugh at you and throw fire.
You left off the paper cuts.
Swordpriest
Hmm... so I'm going to serve in Heaven for awhile, before evolving and becoming a flying ball of light that shoots laser beams of death...
Not a bad fate.
Then you become a dog.
Then you become a dog.
Even better!
Then you become a dog.Swordpriest
Hmm... so I'm going to serve in Heaven for awhile, before evolving and becoming a flying ball of light that shoots laser beams of death...
Not a bad fate.
I also become a Star.
Gotta say though, the CG people have got a sweet deal. They have a chance to become Ghaele Azatas. This woman could kick your ass all day long, and then kiss your boo-boos better.
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Then you become a dog.Swordpriest
Hmm... so I'm going to serve in Heaven for awhile, before evolving and becoming a flying ball of light that shoots laser beams of death...
Not a bad fate.
I also become a Star.
Gotta say though, the CG people have got a sweet deal. They have a chance to become Ghaele Azatas. This woman could kick your ass all day long, and then kiss your boo-boos better.
I'd shoot for lillend or planetar and then just stick with class levels onwards.
Unless risen marilith somehow becomes an option. Risen marilith is always best option.
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I'd shoot for lillend or planetar and then just stick with class levels onwards.
Unless risen marilith somehow becomes an option. Risen marilith is always best option.
Yeah, but all but impossible. I mean, we'll see a risen succubus in an adventure before we see a risen marilith...oh wait...
Yeah, but all but impossible. I mean, we'll see a risen succubus in an adventure before we see a risen marilith...oh wait...I'd shoot for lillend or planetar and then just stick with class levels onwards.
Unless risen marilith somehow becomes an option. Risen marilith is always best option.
That's just mean and cruel.
Who are you fooling? Everyone knows your afterlife involves a penguin costume and endless, menial drudge work for less than minimum wage, Mordo.
Doesn't that only apply to "evil" characters?
Interesting, but few have an objective look on things...
That's a subjective look. Almost everybody who holds those opinions about the evil afterlives is objectively wrong. Practically everybody in the Abyss and Abaddon gets eaten and Hell generally uses those who sign away their souls no differently from the rest. There are reasons why some want to go to the lower plains, but those are dumb reasons for dumb people. Crime doesn't pay.
It is worth considering that if you do something just to get a reward it's not a good deed. What we have here is a troll who's parroting the actions of more enlightened races like a cargo cultist. That's not enough to get get you into Nirvana.
Hell is other people. There are other reasons, sure, but most of the bad parts of Hell are all the other dead people of your own alignment. Evil people aren't all that interested in an afterlife where everyone gets a medal, nobody suffers, and fluffy bunnies are snuggly. They want to compete with others for the top of the offal heap, and accept starting out at the bottom if there are no other options. That most get eaten, well... Too bad for them. They should have been strong enough to deal with the afterlife they chose. And of course, every single one of the petitioners firmly believes "it won't happen to me! I am stronger than the others!"
Different strokes. The ones who truly suffer there are the ones who ended up there because they failed their own views of how to act, and expected something better. The true evil people never expected, or wanted, anything else.
Just wear a ghearfu and a ring of regeneration. Problem solved... Got a DM to let me get one once... ah fun times... so broken....
edited for spelling
Sissyl, that still doesn't work out. It's still a bad decision because most people who think that way are not as tough as they think. They cannot be so, or there would be nobody for them to eat. Therefore they aren't planning as well as those who hope to go to a higher plane, therefore evil is still dumb.
The higher planes don't give everybody a medal. You have to have already won the medal to get in. That's the exact opposite. Should you not be good enough, you go to hell or somewhere instead and get your slim second chance at a tolerable existence for free.
Sissyl, that still doesn't work out. It's still a bad decision because most people who think that way are not as tough as they think. They cannot be so, or there would be nobody for them to eat. Therefore they aren't planning as well as those who hope to go to a higher plane, therefore evil is still dumb.
The higher planes don't give everybody a medal. You have to have already won the medal to get in. That's the exact opposite.
No.
That the evil people don't really qualify is irrelevant. They believe they are tough enough, and most are surprised when they get eaten. And a few, some rare few, are strong enough. Call it the Abaddonian Dream.
You are also not right on the fate of the good souls. So long as you maintain your alignment, you WILL get paradise after death. Pick one and stick with it. It doesn't take a medal, or sticking your neck out, or being a great hero. All it takes is having a certain alignment and keeping it.
It's kind of like the Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock version of Pascal's Wager.
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Take a normal troll...Likes mainly three things in life: Eating, hurting people, and tooth and nail fighting.
Trolls more refined! At least in suburbs. Lots me old posts share recipes!
Yes yes like eating. But nothing tastes as good as being fit feels.
Yes yes like cause hurt. Me not flaunt trash talk expertise on young ears in this forum.
Tooth and nail? No no. Club! Like when me met wife.
Me: Hur. Dead monster now!
She: You save me!
Me: Pardon. Too much flair on club. [Shakes club clean-ish.]
She: That not flair that brains.
Me: Want lick?
Conversation then degenerate after me masterful display of charm and subtle innuendo.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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If I live on Golarion, I don't give a flying toot about the afterlife. Whatever that life is, I'm not the one who gets to live it, some petitioner is. They might have been created from my soul and have fragments of my memory, but they are fundamentally different from me in both body and mind.
So screw 'em! Let 'em get eaten by daemons, or sing songs on elysium. Doesn't matter to me one bit!
If I live on Golarion, I don't give a flying toot about the afterlife. Whatever that life is, I'm not the one who gets to live it, some petitioner is. They might have been created from my soul and have fragments of my memory, but they are fundamentally different from me in both body and mind.
So screw 'em! Let 'em get eaten by daemons, or sing songs on elysium. Doesn't matter to me one bit!
You might have written this lightly, but it is thought provoking.
I am not sure you're entirely correct however. (Not sure you're wrong either)
Judgment is not swift for starters. Then the transformation from soul to outsider is not quick either, specifically it can take centuries to millennia. If you're from the Lower Planes that is centuries and millennia of torture and humiliation, during which the persona is driven mad, broken down, and reconstructed into something more "pure" and "elemental" in it's alignment. It is during this process that memories are stripped away.
This is at least what I have gathered from a concerted read through of the Books of the Damned, by Wes and James.
So, back to your point, when does memory and personality fall away? Definitely when you're a Petitioner. That is what I am not sure about.
And what we know might be somewhat contradictory. I don't have a huge problem with that, because it leaves the GM with some latitude, and after all.. many creation myths are contradictory.
I am troubled however, by the notion that one could cease feel the ramifications of one's life immediately at the point of death. I will have to look into this.
My impression is that memory is immediately lost upon transformation into a larva in the Abyss, and the transformation occurs upon arrival. However, the ramifications of their life are reflected in the demon they'll ultimately become. Note that most demons also can't remember their time spent in the filth as larva. Nightripper actually does, but he's very, very special.
It takes a much longer time in Hell - I believe it's not until all remembrance of mortal life has been erased that the Damned actually become lemures, and that process takes centuries. Lemures are blank slates, that then get molded into new forms, often with personalities tied to the new form. I consider that a reflection of Asmodeus's control freak nature. Only a handful of devils, like the Avzovada, or those erinyes actually formed from fallen angels, have any correlation between their current forms and what they used to be.
Abaddon's a bit weirder - since souls condemned to Abaddon are actively hunted and destroyed by the higher end inhabitants, many of whom can teleport at will with massive perception checks, I have no idea how long one of the hunted has to manage to survive against impossible odds before becoming a daemon in his or her own right. But the manner in which the person died shapes the daemon they become. Perhaps the catharsis of attaining deamonhood is what also strips away their last mortal memories?
Chaotic Neutral: you end up sitting in front of a computer, posting questions or comments to message boards that cause huge fights. It is the perfect way for Mordo to spend eternity.
Interesting, but few have an objective look on things...That's a subjective look.
That's the point, I was pointing out the subjective views.
Almost everybody who holds those opinions about the evil afterlives is objectively wrong. Practically everybody in the Abyss and Abaddon gets eaten and Hell generally uses those who sign away their souls no differently from the rest. There are reasons why some want to go to the lower plains, but those are dumb reasons for dumb people. Crime doesn't pay.
I agree, but the point is they don't think so. It's self-justification and confirmation bias, but that's what people are like.
It is worth considering that if you do something just to get a reward it's not a good deed. What we have here is a troll who's parroting the actions of more enlightened races like a cargo cultist. That's not enough to get get you into Nirvana.
By which logic most people following a creed (in game or real life) don't actually pass the muster. Almost every religion has a "...and don't forget {insert deity's name here} is watching you!" clause in it, to make sure the followers know that they will be punished if they step out of line. But look at it this way: even if he doesn't qualify by being good, at least he isn't being evil...