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Starfinder Adventure Path #1: Incident at Absalom Station (Dead Suns 1 of 6)

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Starfinder Adventure Path #1: Incident at Absalom Station (Dead Suns 1 of 6)
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A Ship Without a Crew

When a brutal gang war breaks out on a docking bay in Absalom Station, the player characters are recruited by the Starfinder Society to investigate the unexpected bloodshed. Delving into the station’s seedy Spike neighborhoods, the heroes confront the gangs and discover that both were paid to start the riot and that the true conflict is between two rival mining companies battling over a new arrival in orbit around the station: a mysteriously deserted ship and the strange asteroid it recovered from the Drift. To head off further violence, the heroes are asked to investigate the ship and discover what happened to its crew, as well as the nature of the asteroid it tows. But what the players find there will set in motion events that could threaten the entirety of the Pact Worlds and change the face of the galaxy forever...

This volume of Starfinder Adventure Path launches the Dead Suns Adventure Path and includes:

  • "Incident at Absalom Station," a Starfinder adventure for 1st-level characters, by Robert G. McCreary.
  • A gazetteer of Absalom Station, by James L. Sutter.
  • Magical relics inspired by the lost planet Golarion, by Owen K.C. Stephens.
  • An archive of new alien creatures, by Jason Keeley and Robert G. McCreary.
  • Statistics and deck plans for a new starship designed just for the player characters, plus details on a new planet in the Codex of Worlds, by Robert G. McCreary.

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-961-5

The Dead Suns Adventure Path is sanctioned for use in Starfinder Society Organized Play. The rules for running this Adventure Path and Chronicle sheet are available as a free download (1.7 MB PDF).

Other Resources: This product is also available on the following platforms:

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5/5 —

A serviceable start

3/5 —

There's been a lot of words written about the Dead Suns AP as a whole. I don't want to rehash what other people have written, but here are my thoughts:

1. Requires buy-in from the players, no players guide - As it starts out almost as abruptly as Abomination Vaults for PF2. You're here to meet a dwarf about joining the SF Society, he gets murked, you get drawn into a conspiracy. If the players are disinterested, then no amount of begging by the Shirren SF Society contact is going to make them care.

2. Red Herrings - There's several red herrings floating around involving corporate bureaucratic infighting between a mining guild and a corporation over who gets to claim the Drift Rock that's never really elaborated upon and is honestly just a time-waster as there's no payoff for the group at all. I think it's better to excise this part entirely.

3. Another Red Herring - There's a character that you meet who basically disappears and is never mentioned again, except that your choice to complete the job or not complete the job may affect whether you get somebody's away message in the third AP. Was kind of disappointed.

4. The Ship Is A Deathtrap - Part 2 takes place on a derelict. Really cool, really spooky, except the players are marooned on this ship with no choice but to go forward. Good to chase the players up a tree, bad in that they probably were not prepared for this. My suggestion? Have an unethical space goblin/Wytchwyrd merchant dock with the derelict and offer medical services or consumables to the group. They will need them, if most peoples accounts of playing this AP are to be believed.

Disappointing

2/5 —

NO SPOILERS

Ok, here we go! The first adventure path for Starfinder, Dead Suns. I got to play it in a campaign that took a couple of years of biweekly sessions. My starting PC was a hyper-caffienated energy drink loving barathu envoy, B'rll'blub. He was great fun to play, but proved startlingly ineffective in combat and died later in the campaign--but it was through his eyes I first experienced what I'm reviewing today, Chapter 1: Incident at Absalom Station. In the flagged section below, I discuss the adventure in detail. My general thoughts might be summed up as: it's okay, but nothing spectacular, and with some encounters that aren't really fair to the PCs. Here in the "No Spoilers" section, however, I'm going to discuss everything in volume one that's not part of the adventure--the front and back matter.

[Cut for space: my hatred of the cover, and my description of the inside front and back covers and the author's foreword.]

The first piece of proper back matter is a twelve-page gazetteer of Absalom Station, the center for humanity in the Pact Worlds solar system (the main campaign setting for Starfinder). An interesting history is provided for the station, and I like how it cleverly integrates some concepts from Pathfinder (like the Starstone, some neighborhood names) while making it its own thing. Absalom Station is perhaps the most important location in the setting, as it holds the headquarters for the Pact Worlds government, the Starfinder Society, the Stalwarts (intergalactic peacekeepers), and more. It also serves as a natural starting location for adventures, and a probable home for PCs since it's a pretty multicultural place--a bit like Babylon 5. Although much of this information is probably replicated in the Pact Worlds hardcover, the gazetteer does a good job describing the different areas of the station and leaves a lot of room for GMs to customise as necessary for the adventure they want to tell. There are some "feel and flavour" elements that I think are missing--how do people get around (elevators? trams? vehicles?); what's it like for newcomers when they arrive (visas? security inspections? customs taxes?); and what laws are in place regarding weapons (frowned upon? side-arms only? everyone's got a rocket launcher?). This last issue in particular has proven problematic for a lot of gamers as it goes to varying real-world conceptions of what's normal for urban communities. As a complete aside, I can't help but note that the artwork of the dude on page 43 is *clearly* an intentional likeness of Jon Bernthal from Netflix's The Punisher!

Next up is "Relics of Golarion", a four-page-long collection of new magical items that have historical links to the now-missing planet. The writer clearly knew their Pathfinder lore, as there's a rich evocation of setting elements in the backstory to each item. In terms of actual usefulness, many of the items are too expensive or too high-level to be useful for most PCs, but I liked the falcon boots (allowing a PC to make a sort of personal gravity field so they can walk on walls or ceilings, even in Zero-G) and the (perhaps overpowered) chained weapon fusion which gives any melee weapon the reach property! I liked the section, though as a timing matter I think it was probably too soon and the space should have been devoted to making Starfinder more its own thing instead of tying it so closely to Pathfinder. New readers can be turned off if they feel they can't get the full story without playing an entirely different game.

A bestiary-style "Alien Archives" introduces 7 new creatures, with each receiving a page. The line-up is: akatas, bone troopers, driftdead, garaggakal, rauzhant, vracinea, and void zombies. The artwork is really strong here, though I don't see much in the way of creative ideas here (and a couple of just updates of Pathfinder monsters). Five of the seven appear in the adventure proper, which is a nice way to save word count there.

Finally, there's the "Codex of Worlds", a one-page description of a planet ripe for adventure that's located somewhere outside of the Pact Worlds system. This issue's entry is "Heicoron IV", an ocean planet with rival civilizations. Although they share a common ancestry, one has adopted to living on floating cities while the other has made the depths their home. There's a "first/early contact" situation for explorers. A classic SF concept that could have appeared (budget-willing) on Star Trek. It's not easy to design a world in one-page, but I liked what I saw with Heicoron IV.

The pattern established in this first issue of the AP persists in subsequent issues, with each including a setting element, a bestiary section, some player-facing character options, and a one-page new world. It's worth noting these volumes are also much shorter (just 64 pages each) compared to first edition Pathfinder APs, making them less of a value for the budget-conscious.

SPOILERS! (for the whole AP):

On to the adventure! This starts with a two-page campaign outline that offers the GM a rough idea of what's in store for the entire AP. In short, Dead Suns is going to be a planet-hopping adventure. The PCs start on Absalom Station in Chapter 1, head to Castrovel in Chapter 2, on to the Diaspora in Chapter 3, a gas giant in the Vast in Chapter 4, an artificial moon in Chapter 5, and then a massive Corpse Fleet flagship in Chapter 6. This is an AP meant to show off themes of space travel and exploration, not one about laying down roots or deep involvement with NPCs and communities. The plot itself concerns the lurking danger of an epic superweapon called the Death St--I mean, the Stellar Degenerator--capable of destroying entire worlds. I'll get more into that in reviews of later chapters.

Part 1 of Incident at Absalom Station is "Absalom Gang War." All of the PCs are meant to be new (or returning) visitors to Absalom Station interested in joining the Starfinder Society (an organisation devoted to exploration, scholarship, and first contact). That's a reasonable premise, but I *really* wish Starfinder did AP Player's Guides like Pathfinder does--they make great advertising tools and help players better immerse themselves in a campaign's premise.

Anyway, I think starting a campaign off with some drama and action is a wise choice, and that's what we get here, because the moment the PCs step off their shuttle and into the docking bay, they're caught in a firefight between two rival gangs! The Starfinder agent meant to show the group around (a dwarf named Duravor Kreel) is killed in the crossfire. I joked with my GM for months after because this is done in a heavy-handed way. Instead of Kreel being killed in the opening descriptive text (before the PCs can do anything), he's required to be killed in the first round of Initiative (no matter what the PCs do, and with no attack or damage roll required). But my PC had a rescue plan! Oh well . . .

With Kreel dead and the gang members dispatched (or fled), the PCs will eventually come into contact with the shirren Chiskisk, a higher-ranking member of the Starfinder Society. Chiskisk is concerned that perhaps Kreel's death wasn't simply a "wrong place at the wrong time" situation, and asks the group to investigate his death as a sort of audition to become members of the group. The investigation aspect is handled pretty well, I think, with five different columns for Gather Information results on different topics and lots of room for creative GMs to flavour how (or from whom) the PCs are getting the info. The PCs will quickly understand that the two gangs fighting in the docking bay (the "Downside Kings" and the "Level 21 Crew") were essentially proxies hired by two rival mining companies (the "Hardscrabble Collective" and "Astral Extractions"). The mining companies are enmeshed in a legal dispute over who gets to claim ownership of an asteroid-sized chunk of rock found in the Drift that had been towed back to Absalom Station by a mining survey ship named the Acreon. As all of the crew of the ship were dead on arrival, Absalom Station's authorities have placed the ship and the Drift rock into quarantine some distance from the station.

That info reveals what the gangs (and their mining company employers) were fighting over, but it doesn't yet explain the nature of Duravor Kreel's death. To get more answers, the PCs need to visit each gang's headquarters and see their leader. The adventure handles this part well, with diplomatic and violent approaches accounted for, and some good characterisation of the NPCs. Busting up gang members isn't exactly intergalactic SF action, but every Starfinder has to start somewhere! Assuming their investigation goes well, the PCs should learn that, in fact, Kreel was an intended victim by one of the gangs--he was a board member of the Hardscrabble Collective and so a hit was put out on him by Astral Extractions out of fear he would also get the Starfinder Society involved in the legal dispute. It's a mystery that has a satisfying conclusion, and gives the PCs an early sense of accomplishment.

Part 2 is "Ghost Ship." The PCs have a few days of downtime to explore and establish themselves on Absalom Station--something that's good for role-playing, even if the GM knows they won't be staying there long. They're then invited to a meeting with Ambassador Gevalarsk Nor, the necrovite (a type of undead) ambassador from Eox! Friendly chatting with evil undead is something some players will have difficulty swallowing, but the premise of Starfinder is that Eox is a full member of the Pact Worlds and that although some people find them distasteful or suspicious, they're generally treated decently. It definitely makes for an interesting meeting, as the PCs learn that the ambassador has an offer for them: he wants them to investigate the Acreon and the Drift rock, and report what they find. It turns out that Ambassador Nor is the mediator between the ongoing dispute over who should get to claim the rock. He's willing to pay well, and he offers additional payment if the PCs bring back to him personally a particular container in the ship's hold--though he won't reveal what's in it! I can't argue with a "What's in the box? Don't open the box!" mystery.

Assuming the PCs agree, they'll get their first taste of the game's starship combat rules. The shuttle they've been loaned is attacked by a single-seat interceptor piloted by an android assassin (hired by whichever mining company the PCs seemed most adverse to). I'm on the record as loathing starship combat in Starfinder, but at least this one is quick and easy, and serves as a straightforward introduction of the rules to players new to the game. As is often the case, I am annoyed that whether the PCs win or lose this starship combat, there are no real consequences, as the adventure assumes that the PCs take lifeboats to get on to the Drift rock (I have no idea why this "professional assassin" wouldn't just shoot down their lifeboats, and the adventure provides no explanation either).

Exploring the Acreon plays up to the classic science fiction "ghost ship" trope. The crew are either dead or vanished, and the PCs need to figure out what happened to them. Their investigation is hampered by the fact that some space goblins from Absalom Station broke into the quarantined ship earlier; I like how they can be simple foes to neutralize or made short-term hirelings (my group chose the latter option, because we needed all the help we could get!). The answer to what befell the ship's crew comes pretty quickly: the movie Alien. Here, they're "akatas", but they look and act very similar to Ripley's foes, complete with the egg-laying-in-human-host bit. Frankly, I wouldn't have minded an answer that was more creative and original. On the other hand, the "what's in the box?!" mystery has a great reveal. When I played, our group didn't open it because the Ambassador said not to and we wanted to get paid. But if a group does, they see there's a dead body inside--and the body opens its eyes and speaks! In short, the container contains an undead "bone trooper" who was being smuggled into Absalom Station by Ambassador Nor. This can turn into a combat or a role-playing encounter, but either way I think it's a creepy-fun answer.

Part 3 is "Phantoms of the Drift" and sees the PCs exploring the Drift rock itself. A well-concealed cave leads to a hidden complex of chambers with technology far in advance of what the Pact Worlds has. The PCs won't know this now (and even as a player, I never realised it until preparing this review), but the Drift rock is actually a small sheared-off portion of the Stellar Degenerator itself! While exploring, the PCs have to survive the android assassin who comes after them in person, some zombies (crew members from the Acreon infected by the akatas), a security robot, and more. They'll also be attacked by a driftdead (a new creature from the back matter's bestiary) that was once a space explorer named Moriko Nash--who died 75 years ago! It turns out Nash was the captain of a starship called the Sunrise Maiden that encountered the Drift rock decades before the Acreon. In a touching bit, the PCs find Nash's last recording that details her fate and gives an ominous warning that something is hunting her.

The PCs probably won't have realised it, but once they landed on the Drift rock and started exploring, their shuttle is remotely activated and flies back to Absalom Station, leading them stranded. This is a contrived (and to my mind execrable) excuse to force the PCs to find another way home. Of course, they'll find the Sunrise Maiden in a hangar bay, the ship intended to be their real home for the rest of the campaign (and the subject of the inside front and back cover). But first, they have to deal with what killed the ship's former captain.

The big boss of Incident at Absalom Station is a new monster called a garaggakal. It's a CR5 monster with a bite attack that does 2d6+9 damage, a special "Leech Life" attack that it can use (a limited number of times per day) to instantly do 5d6 damage that it then gains as temporary hit points, and an EAC/KAC high enough that PCs will probably hit it only 25% of the time. Oh, and if PCs barricade themselves in a room somewhere to rest and heal, it can pass through walls to get them! In short, it's a TPK waiting to happen, as evidenced by several posts in the forum. My experience as a player was exactly the same, although the GM took pity on us and had it act in ways that allowed us to eventually beat it. Frankly, I'd rather suffer a TPK than get a pity win. But in any event, placing the garaggakal there was a terrible decision idea by the adventure writer. I guess I can chalk it up to the difficulties with appropriately scaling difficulty in a brand new game, but I feel like just eyeballing what it can do versus what four average Level 2 PCs can do shows it's likely to be a big problem that leaves a sour taste in the mouth moving forward. And that's where the adventure concludes--there's not an epilogue, because the action starts up immediately in the next volume of the AP, right when the PCs leave the Drift rock.

Overall, both as a player and a reader, I felt some disappointment with Incident at Absalom Station. There were some bits I really enjoyed (the investigation and dealing with the ambassador, for example), but the plot afterwards was pretty basic: a ghost ship followed by a space-dungeon crawl that I've seen a million times, in Starfinder Society scenarios and elsewhere. I was hoping that the first AP for the game would really hit things out of the park (like Rise of the Runelords) did for Pathfinder, but that just isn't the case. And the big boss encounter made it clear that the writers' expectations of what an average group can do is not realistic.

Good starting adventure, but not that good intro

3/5 —

So I'm having bit of problem with these reviews because I'm doing them while running the final book, so by now players' reactions and such isn't super fresh in my mind :p But at least my impressions have had time to age.

The adventures premise of "your contact got killed that ropes you into plot between two factions competing for same thing" and gags involved in it IS interesting.... But have no relevance to rest of the plot at all, so it all feels kind of... Irrelevant?

If Dead Suns is structured like a scifi action adventure movie, this book is essentially pre credit roll intro thing. Like Indiana Jones stea- err finding that golden idol and having it stolen by his evil counterpart. Except instead of lasting 5-10 minutes, it lasts for one sixth of the story.

(that said, actual adventure is fun, I like use of akata and stuff in the drift rock in itself, but its weak overall plotwise when you look at the ap as whole. It does have interesting stuff like potential enemy you can turn to friend and I do like idea of drift rock's discovery setting you up on grand journey. Though this book has several moments of straight up railroading that feels unnecessary or like if it could have been written around differently)

P.S. Gevalarsk Nor is the best npc of this ap. I do find it bit of mixed bag in how its kept secret for gm what his subplot is actually about, but I do like it you can reasonable figure it out by paying close attention through entire ap.

I expected so much more from Paizo then this...

2/5 —

While I generally do not play published adventures, Incident at Absalom Station is exactly WHY I don't play published adventures.

Without spoiling too much of the plot, IaAS is a railroady, contrived adventure that tries to be a murder-mystery but was written by someone who clearly had no idea how to write a murder-mystery.

The book kicks off with the players being newly recruited Starfinder Society members that arrive only to see their Society contact get gunned down in front of them. What follows is a paint-by-numbers story of corporate intrigue that drags on for much longer then it needs to be. Five minutes of dice rolling and roleplaying, and most intelligent players will have found both the main suspect and the motive. But because the writing is contrived, the party still has to trudge through largely pointless filler and no, you cannot call on the Starfinder Society to help speed things up (remind me why we joined these guys again?)

After the initial mystery resolves itself with an unsatisfying bit of Deus Ex Machina, we get to the second half of the adventure, a fairly standard dungeon crawl. Other then the fact that the encounters as written are not balanced for a standard party of four level two adventurers, this actually isn't all that bad. And yes, there is errata available that makes the dungeon encounters more manageable. That one was on us.

I will not elaborate on the ending other then it is fittingly unsatisfying for an adventure that had little player agency and was horribly contrived almost from the get-go. For a company that had been writing adventures for 14 years before Dead Suns dropped, Paizo's first outing into the Pact Worlds should have been better then this.

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Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team
3 people marked this as a favorite.
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Zaister wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
@Zaister, it is setting text, not rules text that affirms undead are evil on Golarion.
But where does it actually say that? Maybe we're just inferring that.
I don't know a specific book of the top of my head, but James Jacobs, the creative director of the original setting, has repeatedly confirmed that Undead are always Evil in the universe of Golarion barring few exceptions.

"Barring few exceptions" means undead aren't always evil.

Let's say one in a million undead aren't evil. (Not canon, just an example.) We haven't presented one million undead stat blocks anywhere in Pathfinder, so if there's even a single non-evil undead that ratio is supported.

Eox is a planet of undead. It has entire cities of undead. Let's say it's population is only 1% of Earth's. (Not canon, just an example.) That'd be 74 million undead.

So 74 of them wouldn't be evil. (Not canon, just an example).

And if they have a support club, the PCs might easily run into 20-30 of them all at once.

Or since there could easily be 40 B million earth-like planets in the Starfinder galaxy (Not canon, just an example), if even 1 in 1,000 was full of undead (which is much higher than the Pact Worlds ratio, and given what happens if a wight gets loose may be way low--not canon, just an example), that's be 40 million undead worlds. So if one in a million of those was primarily undead who aren't evil (say, a ghost world where the ghosts did nothing wrong but their sun went out, and they are all tied to the sadness of their world freezing to death), there could be an adventure where all the undead encountered are non-evil.

So even with the same kind of assumptions as Pathfinder, Starfinder can reasonably want to make sure we don't tell people that in our game (a different game, with different rules), not all undead are automatically evil.

...

Though most are.

Interesting, so what im curious about, is Eox generally viewed as a unpleasant / mostly evil place that the pact worlds tolerate because the benefits of having them in the pact outweighs the general atrocities of the society then? If MOST undead are evil and the planet is mostly undead then isnt it by default then a mostly evil world / society?
Dark Archive
Robert G. McCreary wrote:

Regarding Ambassador Nor:

** spoiler omitted **

All that says to me is that Player's Guide would have been really handy to explain Pathfinder player fundamental flavor differences between Pathfinder and Starfinder :P Pathfinder has hammered in our heads that "undead always evil, weird exceptions are just weird exception, necromancy is illegal everywhere unlike other way stated"

(necromancy being illegal isn't from creative director btw, its from undead slayer's handbook, it has rules for judging how generic settlement would react to it)
Liberty's Edge
2 people marked this as a favorite.

I do think though that there is an important difference in not being able to objectively confirm with a spell that a being is "evil".

It doesn't change what they are, where they draw their power from, what they do, how they think or act, nor perhaps what is thought or written about their ethics by many outside priests and philosophers.

But Pathfinder still operates on an objective evil "PING" test. Cast Spell = PING. "Yup, they are evil. Says so right here. Now we know for sure." You don't have to sort out the moral quandaries anymore. A Ping test tells you whether you are right or wrong in your belief.

Starfinder doesn't have that objective confirmation. Nothing else may have changed, but your certainty of their "evil" is now one of subjective belief, not objective certainty.

That changes nothing; and yet, everything. You can now have debates about it and draw distinctions that suit your purposes, whereas before you could not.
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Zaister wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
@Zaister, it is setting text, not rules text that affirms undead are evil on Golarion.
But where does it actually say that? Maybe we're just inferring that.
I don't know a specific book of the top of my head, but James Jacobs, the creative director of the original setting, has repeatedly confirmed that Undead are always Evil in the universe of Golarion barring few exceptions.

"Barring few exceptions" means undead aren't always evil.

Let's say one in a million undead aren't evil. (Not canon, just an example.) We haven't presented one million undead stat blocks anywhere in Pathfinder, so if there's even a single non-evil undead that ratio is supported.

Eox is a planet of undead. It has entire cities of undead. Let's say it's population is only 1% of Earth's. (Not canon, just an example.) That'd be 74 million undead.

So 74 of them wouldn't be evil. (Not canon, just an example).

And if they have a support club, the PCs might easily run into 20-30 of them all at once.

Or since there could easily be 40 B million earth-like planets in the Starfinder galaxy (Not canon, just an example), if even 1 in 1,000 was full of undead (which is much higher than the Pact Worlds ratio, and given what happens if a wight gets loose may be way low--not canon, just an example), that's be 40 million undead worlds. So if one in a million of those was primarily undead who aren't evil (say, a ghost world where the ghosts did nothing wrong but their sun went out, and they are all tied to the sadness of their world freezing to death), there could be an adventure where all the undead encountered are non-evil.

So even with the same kind of assumptions as Pathfinder, Starfinder can reasonably want to make sure we don't tell people that in our game (a different game, with different rules), not all undead are automatically evil.

...

Though most are.

74 out of 74,000,000 pretty much means Undead are almost always Evil, that's 0.000001% that aren't Evil. So you can't really say "most" with that low of a number and give the impression that you are going to meet non-Evil Undead every now and then, when meeting one may as well be a miracle.

Silver Crusade
3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Look, if Paizo says that undead aren't evil, their customer service number will be swamped by calls from Coalition of Concerned Parents about the fact that walking corpses which were denied the grace of God are not called out as something fundamentally bad and not okay. There's a fine line around a trigger area for many American religious people there. It's the same problem as with nipples and kids in danger, apparently.
Dark Archive
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Zaister wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
@Zaister, it is setting text, not rules text that affirms undead are evil on Golarion.
But where does it actually say that? Maybe we're just inferring that.
I don't know a specific book of the top of my head, but James Jacobs, the creative director of the original setting, has repeatedly confirmed that Undead are always Evil in the universe of Golarion barring few exceptions.

"Barring few exceptions" means undead aren't always evil.

Let's say one in a million undead aren't evil. (Not canon, just an example.) We haven't presented one million undead stat blocks anywhere in Pathfinder, so if there's even a single non-evil undead that ratio is supported.

Eox is a planet of undead. It has entire cities of undead. Let's say it's population is only 1% of Earth's. (Not canon, just an example.) That'd be 74 million undead.

So 74 of them wouldn't be evil. (Not canon, just an example).

And if they have a support club, the PCs might easily run into 20-30 of them all at once.

Or since there could easily be 40 B million earth-like planets in the Starfinder galaxy (Not canon, just an example), if even 1 in 1,000 was full of undead (which is much higher than the Pact Worlds ratio, and given what happens if a wight gets loose may be way low--not canon, just an example), that's be 40 million undead worlds. So if one in a million of those was primarily undead who aren't evil (say, a ghost world where the ghosts did nothing wrong but their sun went out, and they are all tied to the sadness of their world freezing to death), there could be an adventure where all the undead encountered are non-evil.

So even with the same kind of assumptions as Pathfinder, Starfinder can reasonably want to make sure we don't tell people that in our game (a different game, with different rules), not all undead are automatically evil.

...

Though most are.

74 out of 74,000,000...

And either way, that is weird argument in AP were undead Corpse Fleet is one of two bad guy groups <_< Like, ok, they presence is okay by law, but even in first book all of named eoxian npcs are evil. Like even if you assume that "hey they might not be evil", its kind of irrelevant if they are evil anyway.

Though yeah, as steel_wind said since Starfinder doesn't have detect evil, it does make alignments more interesting since there is no objective way for character to know the alignment :D
Dark Archive
5 people marked this as a favorite.

All this seems to tell me is that a players guide would have been really usefull for this Ap (A lot of people are going to possibly assume a lot of things that are no longer true simply because they have used the same Default setting ((Mostly)) as pathfinder.)
Kevin Mack wrote:
All this seems to tell me is that a players guide would have been really usefull for this Ap (A lot of people are going to possibly assume a lot of things that are no longer true simply because they have used the same Default setting ((Mostly)) as pathfinder.)

Bingo.

Mark Moreland wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
It's all academic, anyhow. I was just kidding. I figure pizza for the warehouse crew is the simplest method.
Just the warehouse crew? *sad*

I'm happy to bribe anyone.

However, I'm still holding a grudge over this post. :p

Hmm... In absence of any kind of objective measure... I think there's one question that determines whether a given Eoxian is "trustworthy".

"Do you, or have you ever endorsed the use of the Eoxian Super Weapon?"

If they answer that they currently do... You should not associate with them.

If they say they once did, but no longer do, then at the very least, they're pragmatic. You can probably trust them as far as you can throw them, but not much further.

If they didn't endorse it, and don't endorse it... Assuming they're not lying, then they're probably fine, they at least SEEM okay. That said, remain sceptical, and remember to keep quizzing them on it every few levels.

There is... Some room for nuance to this question though. If their answer is along the lines of "only in retaliation", that's fine; mutually assured destruction tends to prevent even the greatest conquerors from deciding war is worth it.

The key is not to imply that's a viable answer though. You know... So its easier to screen "may be lying" from "sounds legit".
Gorbacz wrote:
Look, if Paizo says that undead aren't evil, their customer service number will be swamped by calls from Coalition of Concerned Parents about the fact that walking corpses which were denied the grace of God are not called out as something fundamentally bad and not okay. There's a fine line around a trigger area for many American religious people there. It's the same problem as with nipples and kids in danger, apparently.

Can you be any less condescending?

Most undead are evil because they either feed of other sentient life (vampires) or had to do irrevocable evil acts to become undead (liches).

It has nothing to with American views on undead which as far as I know are no different than those held by Europeans.
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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I still haven't seen a quote form a printed Pathfinder rules or settings book where it ays that undead must always be evil.
Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Getting back to the actual product for a moment: is there a reason Clara-247 doesn't have an XP value listed in her statblock? Note that the question is not "what is her XP value?" – I know what that should be.

Made GM reference threads for the AP.
Sovereign Court
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Be sure to edit the body of your posts for the correct part. Some of the later ones said they were the thread for part 1.

Fuuuuuuuuuu!

Thankies for pointing that out.

And fixed!

Hehe, I forgot to go back and put the links in Part 1 XD

Everything should be working now.
Creative Director, Starfinder Team
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Just dropping in to add fuel to this particular fire...

Yes, undead are almost always evil in Pathfinder. James Jacobs is the Creative Director of Pathfinder, and he likes it that way.

Starfinder is a different game, with a different Creative Director. And while I totally respect James's opinion and see where he's coming from, I've always wanted to play more with undead that aren't necessarily evil. So in Starfinder there have been some fundamental shifts to make that more feasible. (Exactly what prompted those shifts in-world hasn't been addressed in print yet, but a lot can happen in thousands of years.)

If you want Eox's undead population to be 100% all-bad, all the time... cool, go for it, there's certainly plenty of support for that. But if you want to play a more ambiguous game where undead Eoxians aren't necessarily evil, that's where I'm interested in heading. I want Eox to be the Cheliax of Starfinder—yeah, folks generally understand that their government is pretty twisted, but they're a big economic power and generally law-abiding, so it's in everybody's interest to play nice. As in the real world, good and evil matters way less to the Pact Worlds legal system than whether you obey the rules and honor your contracts, and the Bone Sages are both smart enough and smooth enough to convince everyone that they can all just get along.

Does Pharasma's church like that? Hell no! But just as you and I aren't allowed to go around being murderous vigilantes every time we object to someone's morality or religion, neither can citizens of the Pact Worlds (at least not when there are witnesses). Does that mean that there are Pharasmin terrorists conducting guerrilla strikes on Eox, publicly condemned by all the Pact Worlds even if some of them quietly approve? I hope so! To me, that's way more interesting.

Again, your mileage may vary, and I encourage you to tweak the setting to your heart's content. But for me, the more moral quandaries and shades of gray we can pack into the game, the better!

Okay, but there is in fact an in-universe reason for why more Undead are able to be Non-Evil though, correct? Cause while Starfinder may be a different game it still takes place in the same universe as Pathfinder.

James Sutter wrote:
But just as you and I aren't allowed to go around being murderous vigilantes every time we object to someone's morality or religion, neither can citizens of the Pact Worlds

It's not about their alignment or religions (which is kinda a bad example since the church of the Devourer are some of the main antagonists for this AP), but that they're monsters most likely actively involved in something Evil.

Sovereign Court
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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
They're monsters most likely actively involved in something Evil.

What makes them a monster? Existing? Being highly suspicious is not a just cause for murder. You still need evidence of wrongdoing to condemn someone.

KingOfAnything wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
They're monsters most likely actively involved in something Evil.
What makes them a monster? Existing? Being highly suspicious is not a just cause for murder. You still need evidence of wrongdoing to condemn someone.

Yep. Undead are indeed monsters.

And I did say "most likely" involved in something actively Evil.
James Sutter wrote:
So in Starfinder there have been some fundamental shifts to make that more feasible. (Exactly what prompted those shifts in-world hasn't been addressed in print yet, but a lot can happen in thousands of years.)

Well there we have it, something happened in-univers to change the way things work but nobody (except some sneaky devs) knows what. Hopefully that answers some concerns.

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4

This might be a little OT, but the discussion about undeath and necromancy and alignment has me waving my hands.

If I had to come up with a non-canonical, knee-jerk explanation as to why necromancy to create undead isn't inherently evil anymore, I'd go with this:

The void at the heart of the negative energy plane, the essence that birthed nightwalkers and creatures like the oblivion from B6, was destroyed. This may well be reflected in the loss or restructuring of the cosmic fire (Occult Adventures) at the heart of the Positive Energy Plane as well.

Now, of course, if nightwalkers are in Starfinder that goes right out the window. But so far they don't appear to be canonically referenced, so maybe there's something to be said about a "purification" of the Positive and Negative energy planes of moral extremism.

If there's balance in the universe this also means that manasaputra (Bestiary 5) are also gone. This may also be something that happened during the Gap. The destruction of the cosmic fire could backlash through the Akashic Record (Occult Adventures), which might even explain the memory loss of the Gap.

That's my tinfoil hat hand-waving exercise for the day. Enjoy yourselves some Dead Suns :D

Yeah for Dead Suns!

So glad Jabaxa was able to escape Five Nights At Freddy's.
Paizo Employee Franchise Manager
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Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Okay, but there is in fact an in-universe reason for why more Undead are able to be Non-Evil though, correct? Cause while Starfinder may be a different game it still takes place in the same universe as Pathfinder.

Sort of. One of the (real-world) reasons the Gap exists is to make the two settings different. There are certainly elements of the Pathfinder campaign setting that serve as inspiration for the Starfinder campaign setting, but they are not the same setting.

Canonically, I think of Starfinder as a space-fantasy reboot of Pathfinder. The core underpinnings of the setting are the same, but there are differences between them. Any changes made in Starfinder don't affect Pathfinder, just like anything we do in Pathfinder may or may not be reflected in Starfinder.

I mean, I love the original Battlestar Galactica, and I don't think I'd really change much about it. But I also love the 2004 reboot, different as it is. An expansion or change to the canon of one doesn't impact the other, but they're both still Battlestar.
Sovereign Court
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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I blame Shelyn. In her efforts to redeem just about everything, she granted sentient undead the ability to be non-Evil. Most still are evil, of course. But, she planted the rose.
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KingOfAnything wrote:
I blame Shelyn. In her efforts to redeem just about everything, she granted sentient undead the ability to be non-Evil. Most still are evil, of course. But, she planted the rose.

I am okay with this.

Mark Moreland wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Okay, but there is in fact an in-universe reason for why more Undead are able to be Non-Evil though, correct? Cause while Starfinder may be a different game it still takes place in the same universe as Pathfinder.

Sort of. One of the (real-world) reasons the Gap exists is to make the two settings different. There are certainly elements of the Pathfinder campaign setting that serve as inspiration for the Starfinder campaign setting, but they are not the same setting.

Canonically, I think of Starfinder as a space-fantasy reboot of Pathfinder. The core underpinnings of the setting are the same, but there are differences between them. Any changes made in Starfinder don't affect Pathfinder, just like anything we do in Pathfinder may or may not be reflected in Starfinder.

I mean, I love the original Battlestar Galactica, and I don't think I'd really change much about it. But I also love the 2004 reboot, different as it is. An expansion or change to the canon of one doesn't impact the other, but they're both still Battlestar.

So Starfinder isn't an alternate future to Pathfinder, it's an alternate future to an alternate Pathfinder?

Paizo Employee Franchise Manager
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Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
So Starfinder isn't an alternate future to Pathfinder, it's an alternate future to an alternate Pathfinder?

If that helps you grok that they're different games with different continuity, then sure.

Mark Moreland wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
So Starfinder isn't an alternate future to Pathfinder, it's an alternate future to an alternate Pathfinder?
If that helps you grok that they're different games with different continuity, then sure.

>_>

I love it all!

I don't anticipate any problems with the Elebrians as aliens be weird.

Thank you for the ships and codex of worlds especially.
Sovereign Court
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
So Starfinder isn't an alternate future to Pathfinder, it's an alternate future to an alternate Pathfinder?
If that helps you grok that they're different games with different continuity, then sure.
>_>

It's a fuzzy line. We just have to learn to be happy with the fuzziness. I assume you are a practiced snuggler?

KingOfAnything wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
So Starfinder isn't an alternate future to Pathfinder, it's an alternate future to an alternate Pathfinder?
If that helps you grok that they're different games with different continuity, then sure.
>_>
It's a fuzzy line. We just have to learn to be happy with the fuzziness. I assume you are a practiced snuggler?

Yes I am, but that's beside the point.

Paizo Employee Franchise Manager
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BTW, I wasn't trying to be snarky, but I can see how my last post could come across that way. At first, I really struggled with meshing the two games' continuities in my own head, and I'm the in-house continuity wonk. Eventually, I was able to get over small (and some larger) differences between the two by recognizing that they're different games. There's Pathfinder continuity and Starfinder continuity, and while some elements are the same in both, they're a Venn diagram, not a continuum.
Liberty's Edge
Mark Moreland wrote:
BTW, I wasn't trying to be snarky, but I can see how my last post could come across that way. At first, I really struggled with meshing the two games' continuities in my own head, and I'm the in-house continuity wonk. Eventually, I was able to get over small (and some larger) differences between the two by recognizing that they're different games. There's Pathfinder continuity and Starfinder continuity, and while some elements are the same in both, they're a Venn diagram, not a continuum.

I always saw Starfinder as a parallel universe, but maybe I'm too much into comics.

Wait. Franchise Manager. Since when was that a thing?
Congratulations! :)
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Paladinosaur wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
BTW, I wasn't trying to be snarky, but I can see how my last post could come across that way. At first, I really struggled with meshing the two games' continuities in my own head, and I'm the in-house continuity wonk. Eventually, I was able to get over small (and some larger) differences between the two by recognizing that they're different games. There's Pathfinder continuity and Starfinder continuity, and while some elements are the same in both, they're a Venn diagram, not a continuum.

I always saw Starfinder as a parallel universe, but maybe I'm too much into comics.

I believe the technical term is "Elseworlds."

Scarab Sages
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
James Sutter wrote:
Starfinder is a different game, with a different Creative Director. And while I totally respect James's opinion and see where he's coming from, I've always wanted to play more with undead that aren't necessarily evil. So in Starfinder there have been some fundamental shifts to make that more feasible. (Exactly what prompted those shifts in-world hasn't been addressed in print yet, but a lot can happen in thousands of years.)

LIES! If there were a different Creative Director, there would be more Grippli (possibly with a name change like the ratfolk got) wouldn't there be! I contend that you are actually James Jacobs in disguise!

Paizo Employee Franchise Manager
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Steve Geddes wrote:

Wait. Franchise Manager. Since when was that a thing?

Congratulations! :)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Okay, but there is in fact an in-universe reason for why more Undead are able to be Non-Evil though, correct? Cause while Starfinder may be a different game it still takes place in the same universe as Pathfinder.

James Sutter wrote:
But just as you and I aren't allowed to go around being murderous vigilantes every time we object to someone's morality or religion, neither can citizens of the Pact Worlds
It's not about their alignment or religions (which is kinda a bad example since the church of the Devourer are some of the main antagonists for this AP), but that they're monsters most likely actively involved in something Evil.

This suddenly reminds me of how a certain D&D verse handled why evil wasn't purged in an inquisition: basically, being evil doesn't mean it has to be actively harmful, it just has to prioritize you and yours over everyone else.

Said verse gave an example not unlike that of a loan shark, sure they'll call the guards to arrest you if you fail payments, and quite frequently they'll jack up the payments whenever they can, but they're performing a legit business, and aren't doing anything wrong... But yeah, they're evil.

Another example, is that Lex Luthor is "a monster"; but in most incarnations he's typically spending most of his time pondering what's best for Earth, mostly because of the simple fact he lives there. He's supportive of heroes at times, and antagonistic at others.

One example of his behaviour in one cartoon is that he kidnaped a guy, cut off his arm, and cloned him for a spy; but when the original came looking for him, wanting revenge for the losing an arm part, he handed the guy a briefcase containing a high tech military grade prosthesis with inbuilt weapons, by every measure even BETTER than the arm he had. His next statement is priceless.

Lex Luthor wrote:
What do you really want? Revenge? Or Satisfaction?

In that way I find Lex Luthor probably one of the most relatable villains ever; partly because I have a brother who's similar in a way, and just as pragmatic.

Robert G. McCreary wrote:

Regarding Ambassador Nor:

** spoiler omitted **

Playable undead when?

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Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
It's not about their alignment or religions (which is kinda a bad example since the church of the Devourer are some of the main antagonists for this AP), but that they're monsters most likely actively involved in something Evil.

Shooting someone, because they most likely are involved in something evil, is never a good reason not even in Pathfinder with a more black and white look. Whats coming next, he looked evil?

lowfyr01 wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
It's not about their alignment or religions (which is kinda a bad example since the church of the Devourer are some of the main antagonists for this AP), but that they're monsters most likely actively involved in something Evil.
Shooting someone, because they most likely are involved in something evil, is never a good reason not even in Pathfinder with a more black and white look. Whats coming next, he looked evil?

Uh, yeah it is. There's several parts of APs where you are retaliating/preemptively going after Evil groups. This is the whole point of book 2 of Rise of the Runelords, going after the Skinsaw Cult.

Mark Moreland wrote:
BTW, I wasn't trying to be snarky, but I can see how my last post could come across that way. At first, I really struggled with meshing the two games' continuities in my own head, and I'm the in-house continuity wonk. Eventually, I was able to get over small (and some larger) differences between the two by recognizing that they're different games. There's Pathfinder continuity and Starfinder continuity, and while some elements are the same in both, they're a Venn diagram, not a continuum.

Okay, so alternate future to alternate past.

That has so many implications...
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Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Uh, yeah it is. There's several parts of APs where you are retaliating/preemptively going after Evil groups. This is the whole point of book 2 of Rise of the Runelords, going after the Skinsaw Cult.

The Skinsaw Cult is a bad example for "most likely doing something evil", because you know they do bad stuff. Your example would be more like "met an undead today on the street, destroyed him, because he is most likley planning evil stuff"

lowfyr01 wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Uh, yeah it is. There's several parts of APs where you are retaliating/preemptively going after Evil groups. This is the whole point of book 2 of Rise of the Runelords, going after the Skinsaw Cult.
The Skinsaw Cult is a bad example for "most likely doing something evil", because you know they do bad stuff. Your example would be more like "met an undead today on the street, destroyed him, because he is most likley planning evil stuff"

Well until we get some examples or write ups of Undead not doing that, its a very safe bet.

Liberty's Edge
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Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Well until we get some examples or write ups of Undead not doing that, its a very safe bet.

Safe bets don't hold up well in a court of law.

This "problem," such as it is, isn't unique to Starfinder. Ever have a paladin go to Geb?

The problem here is that "it's evil, I smite it," is the easy way out. It doesn't take any thought. But Good isn't about taking the easy path. It's about taking the hard one. You can fiercely oppose the efforts of a law-abiding evil... but if you want to keep your paladin-hood, you have to do so lawfully yourself. (Or get proof that they aren't actually law-abiding. That works too.) Just smiting them for existing, though, is an effective way to fall. Not necessarily by committing an evil act, but by having your alignment shift to NG or even CG.
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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

The timeline of the setting is important for judging the undead Eoxians.

41 AG: Absalom Pact is signed. At this point, the Eoxians become allied with all other races in their solar system.

291 AG: The Swarm attack both the Pact Worlds and the Veskarium. The Vesk (hostile since 36 AG) become allied with the Pact Worlds.

317 AG: Present day.

So the Eoxians have been reliable allies of the non-evil Pact Worlds races for over two (nearly three) centuries, while the Vesk have been allies for only a quarter century or so -- but nobody is talking about attacking Vesk on sight, even though there are probably more people in setting who are willing to do that than there are people who would smite Eoxians on sight.

As a point of comparison, I cannot think of any real world nations who have been allies for as long as the Eoxians and the other Pact Worlds planets have been.
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Shisumo wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Well until we get some examples or write ups of Undead not doing that, its a very safe bet.

Safe bets don't hold up well in a court of law.

This "problem," such as it is, isn't unique to Starfinder. Ever have a paladin go to Geb?

The problem here is that "it's evil, I smite it," is the easy way out. It doesn't take any thought. But Good isn't about taking the easy path. It's about taking the hard one. You can fiercely oppose the efforts of a law-abiding evil... but if you want to keep your paladin-hood, you have to do so lawfully yourself. (Or get proof that they aren't actually law-abiding. That works too.) Just smiting them for existing, though, is an effective way to fall. Not necessarily by committing an evil act, but by having your alignment shift to NG or even CG.

I haven't mentioned anything about Paladins, or Good for that matter.

I don't have a problem with Eoxians cause they're Evil, I have a problem with them cause they're Monsters.

And you don't have to abide an Evil nation's laws to stay a Paladin, there's multiple mentions in lore of Paladin strike teams going to Geb to slay Undead. A Paladin would not fall for slaying an Undead in Geb just because it happens to be illegal in Geb. A Paladin follows legitimate authority, not whatever authority or laws of the land they find themselves in.

Deads Suns spoiler:
Aside from the Ambassador (who may be implicit in what's happening and revealed later) who hires you in this Adventure and his servants, all the Undead in Incident at Absalom Station are trying to kill your characters. So yeah, pretty safe bet.
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