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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Intrigue (PFRPG)

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Intrigue (PFRPG)
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Words Cut Deep

In the right setting, a single scathing word can prove deadlier than a poisoned dagger. Behind the scenes of heroic battles and magical realms lies a seething underbelly of danger and deception. This world of intrigue holds endless possibilities for adventure, as heroes duel with words instead of steel, plot daring heists, and engage in battles of wills against relentless nemeses. A high-stakes game of shadows and secrets is yours to master—if you have the wits!

Whether the heroes are taming the blood-soaked back alleys of their favorite metropolis or jockeying for the queen's favor alongside highborn nobles, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue is an invaluable companion to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 10 years of system development and an Open Playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into a new era.

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue includes:

  • The vigilante, a new character class that lives two lives—that of an unassuming member of the community, and a cloaked crusader with his own agenda!
  • New archetypes for alchemists, bards, druids, hunters, inquisitors, investigators, mesmerists, rangers, rogues, slayers, spiritualists, and more!
  • New feats and magic items for characters of all sorts, granting mastery of street-smart combat, impenetrable disguises, and misdirection.
  • Dozens of spells to manipulate tense social settings, whether to reveal adversaries' secrets or hide the truth.
  • A complete system of influence, providing new goals and rewards to challenge players and link their fortunes to nonplayer characters and organizations.
  • Systems and advice to help Game Masters introduce a variety of new encounters into their games­—daring heists, extended pursuits, and tense searches for buried secrets.
  • Rules for social combat and verbal duels, allowing characters to use words as weapons to sway hearts and humiliate foes.
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-826-7

Other Resources: This product is also available on the following platforms:

Hero Lab Online
Fantasy Grounds Virtual Tabletop
Archives of Nethys

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A Must-Have for Heavy RP Games

5/5 —

Okay, let's get into Ultimate Intrigue! As the title implies, the purpose of this book is to help flesh out more subtle elements of the game: things like spreading rumors, rallying a crowd, stealing secrets, and other classic cloak-and-dagger stuff. I've used bits and pieces of it in previous campaigns, but read through it carefully (and incorporated a fair bit of it) for my current Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign, as that adventure path is designed around urban political strife. Boiled down to brass tacks, the book is a 256 page hardcover comprised of six chapters. The full-colour artwork is very strong throughout, and the cover is great (though Merisiel's legs are like three times longer than her torso!). There's a very short two-page introduction that summarises each chapter--which is what I'm going to do anyway.

Chapter 1 is "Classes" (60 pages). The big deal here is a new base case, the Vigilante. The concept is that the character has both a normal (social) identity and a masked identity, with certain class options only working while in the associated guise. There are also several safeguards to help keep anyone from figuring out that Bruce Wayne is really Batman. I have a Vigilante character in Pathfinder Society, and one of my players runs one in Curse of the Crimson Throne. I think the class is perfect for an urban campaign mostly set in a single city (especially with lots room for intrigue), but it doesn't work as well with the more traditional "travelling adventuring party" campaign. It's a bit too obvious when five newcomers arrive in town, only for one of them to "disappear" and a new costumed avenger show up. I know there are also some gamers who dislike what can seem like the awkward introduction of comic book super heroes into their fantasy role-playing. For me, I think the concept works well--though as I said, only in particular types of campaigns.

A large chunk of the chapter is devoted to new archetypes for other classes. More specifically, alchemists, bards, cavaliers, druids, inquisitors, investigators, mesmerists, rangers, rogues, skalds, spiritualists, swashbucklers, and vigilantes get some love. Frankly, a lot of the archetypes are fairly forgettable, but there are exceptions--for example, a Daring General Cavalier would be great in military campaigns, the Dandy Ranger could be really useful in an urban campaign, and a couple of the vigilante archetypes are perfect if you want to play the Hulk or Spider-Man. Although the rogue archetypes aren't very good, there are several excellent rogue talents that focus on making the character harder to track through divination, etc. It's worth nothing that this book came out during the period when the hardcover line was still setting-neutral, so there won't be any Golarion-specific flavour with the archetypes (for better or worse depending on your preferences).

Chapter 2 is "Feats" (24 pages). There's something like 110 new feats in the chapter, and probably something for everyone. Given the book's theme, many of the feats are related to sneaking around, hiding and disguising spells, stealing stuff, making plans, figuring out when you're being to lied to, etc. A few that I particularly like include Brilliant Planner (giving you the chance to have just what you need just when you need it), Call Truce (giving a slim chance to actually end combat peacefully when its underway), and Drunkard's Recovery (silly but fun). A couple of important feats are Conceal Spell (which hides the pesky manifestations that spells create in Pathfinder) and Fencing Grace (adding Dex to damage with rapiers, a favourite of swashbucklers everywhere). Overall, I thought the options presented were well-written and plausible in terms of desirability.

Chapter 3 is "Mastering Intrigue" (68 pages). This is probably the most important chapter in the book for GMs. It offers tons of useful advice, as well as clarification on some tricky game mechanics, to help run intrigue-based games. The pages about how common magic spells can be handled while still preserving mysteries, secrets, and misdirection is pure gold. The chapter also introduces seven new rules sub-systems, any or all of which can be incorporated into a campaign to flesh out certain aspects of gameplay. "Influence" is a sub-system that deepens the process of persuading a person or organisation to support you. Instead of a simple single Dipomacy check, PCs need to make certain skill checks to learn a person's interests and weaknesses, and then other skill checks to take advantage of what they've learned. The process operates through multiple phases of tracked successes and failures, and can be tied to mechanical favours and benefits. It's become a very popular facet of many Pathfinder Society scenarios, and I think it's a pretty clever way to handle things--though it can be a bit clunky at first. "Heists" is a sub-system that contains some excellent advice to GMs on how to structure things so players don't obsess over unimportant trivia and are willing to violate that old canard of "don't split the party." "Infiltration" contains some quick advice, but that's about it. "Leadership" deepens the feat of the same name, adding lots of rules for interacting with other sub-systems both in this book and in Ultimate Campaign. I'm personally still not persuaded that the Leadership feat chain is a good inclusion to the game. "Nemeses" is all about adding a recurring villain; I think it's trying to systematise something that could be handled just fine without it. Though there are some fun suggestions on evil plots to foil. "Pursuit" is a little like the Chase sub-system from the GameMastery Guide but stretched out over hours and days cross-country instead of in minutes through alleyways. I could imagine using it. "Research" is probably my favourite of the sub-systems, and one I've used in multiple campaigns. In essence, it gives the PCs a reason to use things like libraries and archives by giving them bonuses to their Knowledge checks, but then makes gaining different thresholds of information the result of multiple successful checks. Overall, a great chapter--I wish the Influence and Research sub-systems had been in the Core Rulebook, because they really add a lot to the non-combat aspects of the game.

Chapter 4 is "Social Combat" (25 pages). The idea here is to present GMs with options on how to handle social conflicts--things like debates, trials, cutting repartee, etc. There's also a "verbal duels" sub-system. I'm just not sure about it--it's something I'd have to see in practice. However, a really useful part of the chapter is advice to the GM on how to handle the various social skills in the game--Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive--as well as the intrigue skills like Disguise, Perception, and Stealth. The advice here is excellent, and I just stopped in the middle of this review to reread it.

Chapter 5 is "Spells" (40 pages). You can judge from the length of the chapter that there's a ton of new spells, and every spellcasting class will find something. One of the fun things the chapter introduces is a new "ruse" descriptor for spells, which means the spell is easily mistaken for another even by observers trained in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana). It's a good way to mislead folks who have played way too much Pathfinder. There are some really clever spells in this section, with a couple of my favourites including false resurrection (instead of bringing back a soul, you stuff a demon into the body!) and the hilarious shamefully overdressed.

Chapter 6 is "Gear and Magic Items" (22 pages). There are some new mundane pieces of equipment (weapons like the cool wrist dart launcher, alchemical items, etc.) but most of the chapter is new magic items with an intrigue theme. The one that really stuck out at me was the launcher of distraction, which is perfect for assassination attempts because it makes it seem like the attack is coming from somewhere else.

Overall, I think Ultimate Intrigue is an excellent book. It's pretty much a must-have in my opinion for any campaign that's going to involve a lot of role-playing or that moves beyond traditional dungeon crawling and wilderness encounters. Even readers not involved in "intrigue campaigns" per se are sure to find plenty of material they can use.

1/5 —

Don't get me wrong I love Paizo books, I love their work, and I'm proud to own almost all of their publications.

However, Ultimate Intrigue is the one book I regret buying. It's even more than that, it's the one book i regret they ever published.

We need rules and systems, ok. We need a magic system because magic isn't a real thing. We need a combat system otherwise playing with your grilfriend become home abuse. But we don't need a social system because it's a ROLEPLAYING game. Either you want intrigue heavy campaign and you roleplay them, or you want to dungeon crawl or investigate (that's fine too) and you don't play intrigues. You can even do both and it's great.

Aside from that massive problem, the book suffers from "a turn normal actions into feats/class ability" syndrome. I can't count the number of time where players made me fighters to wizards or rogues with a dual identity. We didn't need the Vigilante, and still don't. And I loved when wizard use to get clever and ask for linguistics/bluff roll to blend a spell into a phrase. Now you need a feat for it. Thanks, Ultimate Intrigue. If that was not enough, some of these nonsense feat are built in feat tax chains.

But the one thing I hate the most about this book is the stupid FAQ it bestowed upon us to promote itself (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9tza). That makes a whole school of magic (illusion) utterly useless, and destroys a lot of others (enchantment).

Now I know I can just refuse to use it. But i use to love pathfinder for the clarity and perfect sense with out need to houserule much.

Now it's gone.

I'm tired of paizo trying to stuff this book down our face

1/5 —

If I was playing a home campaign this book might be more fitting,

For society play this verbal debate and other ideas for this book really bog down the game play. I like social aspect of games and role playing but as I said society play it slows the game way down to try and get people up to snuff on the mechanics

An amazing new class in a hit and miss supplement

4/5 —

So, Ultimate Intrigue took a long time for me to come to a complete opinion on.

The Vigilante class introduced in this book is, in my opinion, easily the best non-spellcasting class Paizo has ever created. It breaks up its social options and combat options in such a way that you have a great character able to participate in all areas of the game without having to choose whether you want to be competent in combat or in the myriad other facets of the game like exploration, social encounters, etc. It has deep and well-designed talents that allow you to pick any of a variety of different ways to participate in combat, with or without weapons, and numerous tools for allowing players to influence the story with safe houses, contacts, and more.

At PAX Prime 2016 I had the opportunity to visit Paizo's Pathfinder demo area and play their pregenerated vigilante character. I honestly didn't expect it to go terribly well; after all, the vigilante is a class built around balancing two identities and moving between different social strata, so you'd think that this would require a more controlled environment where you know the other players in advance and have time to plan out how your character fits into the game world with your GM ahead of time, right? Turns out, I was wrong. The vigilante class is well-crafted enough that even while playing a 1st level pregen I was able to easily deal with situations in and out of combat, and it took me about 60 seconds of conversation to establish with the group that I had a secret identity they were privy to and might need them to cover for my character from time to time if he needed to swap identities. It didn't hurt matters that the only downside to anyone learning a vigilante's secret identity is that, well, they know his or her secret identity. You can go all Tony Stark if you want, announce that you are Iron Man, and carry on as normal. Very few of the vigilante's abilities actually require you to maintain truly secret identities, and the only real hit you take is that you're a bit easier to find by magical means (though even this can be addressed with clever use of the Safe House Social Talent).

The book also elaborates on the intent behind numerous spells that often prove problematic for GMs in games where they want to have a focus on gritty investigation of mystery, such as the various detect spells, speak with dead, etc.

I think my biggest disappointments with the book, and the reason I can't give it 5 stars, lie in the feats and archetypes. I'll start with the feats, and a bit about why I see most of them as representative of missed opportunities.

To start with, Pathfinder's skill system is heavily dated. When Paizo brought it over from 3.5, they combined a few extraneous skills, but otherwise did little to update things, meaning the core area of the rules covering everything in the game that isn't casting spells or hitting things is now well over a decade old and out of date. Several skills don't even actually work, or work well, as written, have interactions you're just supposed to kind of assume or make up (Ride and Handle Animal are a mess, Stealth requires one to check out FAQs and blog posts online to use as intended, Bluff and Diplomacy have more than a few vague areas and inconsistencies, etc.), so what better book to address, update, and expand these core components of the game than a book about playing skill and intrigue heavy campaigns? Unfortunately, Paizo chose not to go that route, instead relying on feats to stretch skills over their gaps and issues, leading to many of the feats in the this book providing skill uses that I've seen GMs at hundreds of tables houserule as basic functions of those skills to begin with. Instead of formalizing intuitive uses of existing skills into their basic function, they added a feat tax to allow characters to do things many people already thought they could do. While there is a section in the book going over several of the vague areas in a few key skills, these are primarily common sense clarifications instead of the full address the skills could have used.

The archetypes, like many Paizo hardcovers, are all over the place. Some of them are interesting and dynamic, like the Masked Performer bard archetype, some show an attempt at embodying a cool and modern concept but fail to achieve that concept in the actual execution, like the Magical Child vigilante archetype, and some are just plain bad, so obviously terribly designed that you almost wonder if the person who wrote them has ever actually played Pathfinder, like the Brute vigilante archetype.

Now, don't let the above wall of negativity mislead you; there is a lot of great stuff in this book, including perhaps the most inspired and well-crafted class Paizo has ever produced, a class that introduces really interesting design concepts, plays with components of the class chassis we haven't seen classes treat as quite so malleable before, and is a genuinely fun and interesting class to play in and of itself. Despite many of the feats ranging from useless to frustrating, there are still quite a few that are interesting and viable, and while the archetypes are very hit or miss, that's generally true of Paizo books in general and probably shouldn't be held against this one in particular.

My final verdict on Ultimate Intrigue is 4 stars, and a strong recommendation to pick it up, if for no other reason than to add the Vigilante class to your game (though there definitely are other reasons to add this book to your collection).

Pathfinder presents Batman!

4/5 —

No seriously. The vigilante class is freaking batman. Look at the art for chapter one and for the character. HE'S BATMAN. Of course they also have archetypes if you want to make Hulk, Sailor Moon, even He-Man. With the archetypes from other books the list goes on.
My favorite part, and I cannot wait to test this properly in a game, is the social combat. It works a lot like playing craps or roulette. You get a pool of Determination points which you use to place a bet then you roll off with your social skills check! Seriously it sounds like lots of fun!

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FallenDabus wrote:
Soooooo I just had a thought. I didn't really pay attention to the vigilante playtest, but could you use it tomodel a character who wasn't so wrapped up in a secret identity? Such as one Dr Jones perhaps? I know some stuff would be funky, but part of it feels like it would fit where the professor was one identity and the adventurer was another. Neither of them is really a secret... But most people in-universe know Indy as the former rather than the latter.

Works just fine. You lose out on a few perks, like the scrying protection, but there are no major drawbacks to doing things Indy style.

Fourshadow wrote:
I have a time machine...it's called "Subscription".

Without wanting to reopen a discussion that has been had umpteen times, subscriptions are just not practical for some folks, but I *do* understand the business reasons for the subscription model.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Here's the next blog!

This is so awesome!

Good news for strength-based Vigilantes, by the way. I don't know if it was brought up, but strength-based gets something just as cool. When you use Power Attack, you raise your AC by the penalty your attack, provided you actually take that penalty on at least one of your attacks. You have to be using strength for the attack roll, though.
Silver Crusade
QuidEst wrote:
Good news for strength-based Vigilantes, by the way. I don't know if it was brought up, but strength-based gets something just as cool. When you use Power Attack, you raise your AC by the penalty your attack, provided you actually take that penalty on at least one of your attacks. You have to be using strength for the attack roll, though.

Strength based gets something good, dual wielding gets something good, throwing gets something good, Vital Strikers get something good.

Vigilante gets all kinds of nice :3
5 people marked this as a favorite.

Shouldn't the ENTIRE Dex vs Str debate be elsewhere?! It's pretty disappointing to see a debate going on instead of discussion of the product.

There is so much to love about this book. I showed my son the spell "Hidden Presence" and his eyes bugged out. This spell might help you pull off what Bilbo does with Smaug...though you might break the spell if you spoke to the dragon. Love that spell!
Deflect Blame? Fail a Bluff check, you can pass it off on someone else! An attack that didn't do much more than anger an opponent? "She did it!"
Now, I do have a question about the Entice Fey chain of spells...can these fey be banished? Isn't the Material Plane their home plane (other than the First World)? So would they be subject to banishment? I ask because these are Conjuration with the Calling subschool rather than Summoning...
1 person marked this as a favorite.
Fourshadow wrote:

Shouldn't the ENTIRE Dex vs Str debate be elsewhere?! It's pretty disappointing to see a debate going on instead of discussion of the product.

There is so much to love about this book. I showed my son the spell "Hidden Presence" and his eyes bugged out. This spell might help you pull off what Bilbo does with Smaug...though you might break the spell if you spoke to the dragon. Love that spell!
Deflect Blame? Fail a Bluff check, you can pass it off on someone else! An attack that didn't do much more than anger an opponent? "She did it!"
Now, I do have a question about the Entice Fey chain of spells...can these fey be banished? Isn't the Material Plane their home plane (other than the First World)? So would they be subject to banishment? I ask because these are Conjuration with the Calling subschool rather than Summoning...

I know it doesn't have the same mechanics, but Deflect Blame makes me think of the Blame Thrower from Mystery Men. :)

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Mythraine wrote:


But I also think options to bolster STR-based characters in ways other than damage would be awesome as well. Strength to Fort saves is a great and logical idea.

"Lifting" the Curse: You use force of will and brawn to remove curse effects. Make a Strength check against the Curse DC to remove it as the Remove Curse spell.

Slithery D wrote:
Mythraine wrote:


But I also think options to bolster STR-based characters in ways other than damage would be awesome as well. Strength to Fort saves is a great and logical idea.
"Lifting" the Curse: You use force of will and brawn to remove curse effects. Make a Strength check against the Curse DC to remove it as the Remove Curse spell.

Forget stat arguments, make a TN Bro Cleric of Kurgess. "Bro, do you even lift curses?" "Check out my primitive firearms."

Would anyone care to shed some light on what the Cipher archetype for the Investigator is and/or give a bit more detail on what the archetypes for the Occultist get?
Silver Crusade

The Cipher basically becomes more of an unperson, can use inspiration without spending uses on stealth and perceptions, harder to detect with magic, others have to make perception checks to even acknowledge they exist, evasion and improved evasion, and hide in plain sight.

Occultist has the Ancestral Aspirant, which deal with your noble family and enchantments, and Secret Broker, which can trade and steal memories and secrets.
Community Manager
1 person marked this as a favorite.

Removed some posts and replies that were not about Ultimate Intrigue—leave the product discussion threads for the product, please.
Rysky wrote:

The Cipher basically becomes more of an unperson, can use inspiration without spending uses on stealth and perceptions, harder to detect with magic, others have to make perception checks to even acknowledge they exist, evasion and improved evasion, and hide in plain sight.

Occultist has the Ancestral Aspirant, which deal with your noble family and enchantments, and Secret Broker, which can trade and steal memories and secrets.

The Cipher sounds like fun! What sort of stuff do they give up?

Rysky wrote:

The Cipher basically becomes more of an unperson, can use inspiration without spending uses on stealth and perceptions, harder to detect with magic, others have to make perception checks to even acknowledge they exist, evasion and improved evasion, and hide in plain sight.

Occultist has the Ancestral Aspirant, which deal with your noble family and enchantments, and Secret Broker, which can trade and steal memories and secrets.

These sound way too fantastic. I need to play a Cipher Investigator. Here's to hoping it's compatible with Empiricist.

Secret Broker sounds similarly fantastic.

Thank you for the information!
Designer
Barachiel Shina wrote:

The spell Codespeak was already in the Black Markets Player Companion, but there seems to be an updated text description and also it seems to no longer be an Inquisitor spell as it is in Black Markets.

Is this intentional or an accidental omission?

Basically, codespeak appeared in a 3.5 product, so we picked it up for Ultimate Intrigue because it was a perfect fit. Hardcovers take a long time to develop and print compared to the turnaround on softcovers, so some time later, Black Markets also picked up the same spell from the same 3.5 product for the same reason, independently. I would tend to use the UI text because they're very similar but the UI version explains more edge cases, but the Black Markets text is also good too!

Rysky wrote:

The Cipher basically becomes more of an unperson, can use inspiration without spending uses on stealth and perceptions, harder to detect with magic, others have to make perception checks to even acknowledge they exist, evasion and improved evasion, and hide in plain sight.

Occultist has the Ancestral Aspirant, which deal with your noble family and enchantments, and Secret Broker, which can trade and steal memories and secrets.

If you've seen the Silence in Doctor Who, the Cipher's theme is similar to that--being forgotten very quickly and even ignored in battle. A lot is given up for it, though: I believe 5 talents between levels 3-11 are given up. Also all trap and poison related abilities.

Designer
Fourshadow wrote:
Rysky wrote:

The Cipher basically becomes more of an unperson, can use inspiration without spending uses on stealth and perceptions, harder to detect with magic, others have to make perception checks to even acknowledge they exist, evasion and improved evasion, and hide in plain sight.

Occultist has the Ancestral Aspirant, which deal with your noble family and enchantments, and Secret Broker, which can trade and steal memories and secrets.

If you've seen the Silence in Doctor Who, the Cipher's theme is similar to that--being forgotten very quickly and even ignored in battle. A lot is given up for it, though: I believe 5 talents between levels 3-11 are given up. Also all trap and poison related abilities.

Yeah. For a character that matches the concept, it's definitely worth it for what you get and all the fun hijinks you can pull with it, but it's not a small archetype in terms of give and take.

The Cipher comes close to equaling my favorite Investigator Archetype, the Lamplighter (Heroes of the Streets PC). Of course, they cannot stack...:(
Silver Crusade
Gisher wrote:
Rysky wrote:

The Cipher basically becomes more of an unperson, can use inspiration without spending uses on stealth and perceptions, harder to detect with magic, others have to make perception checks to even acknowledge they exist, evasion and improved evasion, and hide in plain sight.

Occultist has the Ancestral Aspirant, which deal with your noble family and enchantments, and Secret Broker, which can trade and steal memories and secrets.

The Cipher sounds like fun! What sort of stuff do they give up?

Changes skills and inspiration, gives up everything involving traps and poisons, gives up swift alchemy, changes studied strike, and gives up 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th talents.

Silver Crusade
Pyromancer999 wrote:
Rysky wrote:

The Cipher basically becomes more of an unperson, can use inspiration without spending uses on stealth and perceptions, harder to detect with magic, others have to make perception checks to even acknowledge they exist, evasion and improved evasion, and hide in plain sight.

Occultist has the Ancestral Aspirant, which deal with your noble family and enchantments, and Secret Broker, which can trade and steal memories and secrets.

These sound way too fantastic. I need to play a Cipher Investigator. Here's to hoping it's compatible with Empiricist.

Secret Broker sounds similarly fantastic.

Thank you for the information!

Np :3

And unfortunately no, it wouldn't stack with Empiricist.
Fourshadow wrote:
The Cipher comes close to equaling my favorite Investigator Archetype, the Lamplighter (Heroes of the Streets PC). Of course, they cannot stack...:(

There are already so many Investigator archetypes that I want to play: Empiricist, Psychic Detective, and Lamplighter. Now we have another one. Curse you, Paizo! Why are you giving me so many things that I want!

Rysky wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Rysky wrote:

The Cipher basically becomes more of an unperson, can use inspiration without spending uses on stealth and perceptions, harder to detect with magic, others have to make perception checks to even acknowledge they exist, evasion and improved evasion, and hide in plain sight.

Occultist has the Ancestral Aspirant, which deal with your noble family and enchantments, and Secret Broker, which can trade and steal memories and secrets.

The Cipher sounds like fun! What sort of stuff do they give up?
Changes skills and inspiration, gives up everything involving traps and poisons, gives up swift alchemy, changes studied strike, and gives up 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th talents.

Thanks for the details. Those lost talents... yikes! It still might be good for an infiltration build.

Gisher wrote:
Fourshadow wrote:
The Cipher comes close to equaling my favorite Investigator Archetype, the Lamplighter (Heroes of the Streets PC). Of course, they cannot stack...:(
There are already so many Investigator archetypes that I want to play: Empiricist, Psychic Detective, and Lamplighter. Now we have another one. Curse you, Paizo! Why are you giving me so many things that I want!

I know! Archetypes are a fantastic mechanic for those who want a little flair to the main chassis of the class. My Lamplighter often strikes 1st and hardest in my group. She is awesome.

The Cipher? Seems like enemies may not see him before or after they are hit. "What was that?!" I know, not quite THAT good, but it seems that way in my imagination.
Designer
Gisher wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Rysky wrote:

The Cipher basically becomes more of an unperson, can use inspiration without spending uses on stealth and perceptions, harder to detect with magic, others have to make perception checks to even acknowledge they exist, evasion and improved evasion, and hide in plain sight.

Occultist has the Ancestral Aspirant, which deal with your noble family and enchantments, and Secret Broker, which can trade and steal memories and secrets.

The Cipher sounds like fun! What sort of stuff do they give up?
Changes skills and inspiration, gives up everything involving traps and poisons, gives up swift alchemy, changes studied strike, and gives up 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th talents.
Thanks for the details. Those lost talents... yikes! It still might be good for an infiltration build.

Yup, it's really good for infiltration. The key is you get something cool that other investigators would probably like to take with a talent at each of those levels (evasion, the ability to studied strike non studied combat foes, hide in plain sight, constant nondetection at all times, and improved evasion!)

Someone said up-thread that the Vox Mesmerist can hit multiple target's with their version of painful stare....can someone explain how that works ?

The Sorrowsoul looks like a fun archetype. A pretty powerful "loner" bard. Surprised more people aren't talking about it.
Liberty's Edge

On the Cipher: The inability to take Extra Investigator Talent, or indeed gain any Talent at all until 13th level really hurts, though. Quick Study is a considered a must for a lot of combat Investigators, for example.

Still, Studied Striking whoever you like might make up for that...I'm really gonna need to look at that one.
Designer
Deadmanwalking wrote:

On the Cipher: The inability to take Extra Investigator Talent, or indeed gain any Talent at all until 13th level really hurts, though. Quick Study is a considered a must for a lot of combat Investigators, for example.

Still, Studied Striking whoever you like might make up for that...I'm really gonna need to look at that one.

Indeed. You can't spam it on the same creature (first time each day for each creature), but it's still really nice. In fact, your shrewd analysis has hit on the reason the archetype can be stuffed with so many strong trades (inattention blindness especially is usually really good compared to trap and poison stuff, and a lot of the other abilities are also nice) and still wind up working out.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Rysky wrote:

The Cipher basically becomes more of an unperson, can use inspiration without spending uses on stealth and perceptions, harder to detect with magic, others have to make perception checks to even acknowledge they exist, evasion and improved evasion, and hide in plain sight.

Occultist has the Ancestral Aspirant, which deal with your noble family and enchantments, and Secret Broker, which can trade and steal memories and secrets.

The Cipher sounds like fun! What sort of stuff do they give up?
Changes skills and inspiration, gives up everything involving traps and poisons, gives up swift alchemy, changes studied strike, and gives up 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th talents.
Thanks for the details. Those lost talents... yikes! It still might be good for an infiltration build.
Yup, it's really good for infiltration. The key is you get something cool that other investigators would probably like to take with a talent at each of those levels (evasion, the ability to studied strike non studied combat foes, hide in plain sight, constant nondetection at all times, and improved evasion!)

Why, yes I would take those if they were available as Talents. :)

Designer
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nighttree wrote:

Someone said up-thread that the Vox Mesmerist can hit multiple target's with their version of painful stare....can someone explain how that works ?

Imagine in your mind a smooth silky blend of mesmerist powers with sound striker bard-esque sonic attacks, and you'll get a good picture of it.

Designer
Gisher wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Rysky wrote:

The Cipher basically becomes more of an unperson, can use inspiration without spending uses on stealth and perceptions, harder to detect with magic, others have to make perception checks to even acknowledge they exist, evasion and improved evasion, and hide in plain sight.

Occultist has the Ancestral Aspirant, which deal with your noble family and enchantments, and Secret Broker, which can trade and steal memories and secrets.

The Cipher sounds like fun! What sort of stuff do they give up?
Changes skills and inspiration, gives up everything involving traps and poisons, gives up swift alchemy, changes studied strike, and gives up 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th talents.
Thanks for the details. Those lost talents... yikes! It still might be good for an infiltration build.
Yup, it's really good for infiltration. The key is you get something cool that other investigators would probably like to take with a talent at each of those levels (evasion, the ability to studied strike non studied combat foes, hide in plain sight, constant nondetection at all times, and improved evasion!)

Why, yes I would take those if they were available as Talents. :)

I figured you might ;)

Mark Seifter wrote:
nighttree wrote:

Someone said up-thread that the Vox Mesmerist can hit multiple target's with their version of painful stare....can someone explain how that works ?

Imagine in your mind a smooth silky blend of mesmerist powers with sound striker bard-esque sonic attacks, and you'll get a good picture of it.

This is sounding perfect for my "Dark Speech" speaking cultist....awesome!

Mark Seifter wrote:
nighttree wrote:

Someone said up-thread that the Vox Mesmerist can hit multiple target's with their version of painful stare....can someone explain how that works ?

Imagine in your mind a smooth silky blend of mesmerist powers with sound striker bard-esque sonic attacks, and you'll get a good picture of it.

Careful there, Mark! You just stepped on my favorite class/archetype's licks! The Sound Striker would love to have scaling damage...but it's just straight 4d6...sniffle. :( However, they can add Cha mod to their Weirdwords... :)

It is a cool Mesmerist archetype, though.
Designer
Fourshadow wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
nighttree wrote:

Someone said up-thread that the Vox Mesmerist can hit multiple target's with their version of painful stare....can someone explain how that works ?

Imagine in your mind a smooth silky blend of mesmerist powers with sound striker bard-esque sonic attacks, and you'll get a good picture of it.

Careful there, Mark! You just stepped on my favorite class/archetype's licks! The Sound Striker would love to have scaling damage...but it's just straight 4d6...sniffle. :( However, they can add Cha mod to their Weirdwords... :)

It is a cool Mesmerist archetype, though.

This is 1d6+mes level, so it'll be a while before it beats 4d6+Cha modifier, though by the level we're talking about to get that AoE, you can combo it with compelling voice for some extra damage to a single target (though by then the soundstriker has multiple words).

Any "stand out's" in the spells added to the Vox's spell list ?
Designer
nighttree wrote:

Any "stand out's" in the spells added to the Vox's spell list ?

Depends on what stands out to you. Ear-piercing scream, disrupt silence, and echolocation are all spells that I've seen be particularly popular for other characters (or help vox out a lot but are new so just not popular yet, for disrupt silence).

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Depends on what stands out to you. Ear-piercing scream, disrupt silence, and echolocation are all spells that I've seen be particularly popular for other characters (or help vox out a lot but are new so just not popular yet, for disrupt silence).

My inspiration for the Character was the Bene Gesserit (Dune)....but most of this is covered by Charm, suggestion, command, etc....

I'm also adding elements of the 3.5 Dark Speech feats, and the "Black Tounge" form LOTR.....

Does the metaporh's adaptive physiology stack with the preserve organs discovery?

Has anyone mentioned if the zealot archetype replaces your specialization? This might finally be a way for me to make my holy monk/ninja without lots of crazy multiclassing if you can make a stalker/zealot with the unarmed talents and lethal grace.
Silver Crusade Contributor

It does replace specialization.
1 person marked this as a favorite.

Also I love the different archetype styles of vigilante, but I think you missed one, there's no ki based vigilante.
Wolfism wrote:
Also I love the different archetype styles of vigilante, but I think you missed one, there's no ki based vigilante.

There are still a lot of styles of vigilante they could do. But they have to save something for future books

Designer
Kalindlara wrote:
It does replace specialization.

It does, but nothing stops you from taking lethal grace anyway.

The Liberating special weapon ability in this book shares the same name as the Liberating property in Weapon Master's Handbook.

They both do very different things, but I'd be more careful on duplicating names. It can cause confusion. Especially when applying both abilities to the same weapon. Although writing down +2 Liberating Liberating Greataxe would be worth the comedy.
2 people marked this as a favorite.
Barachiel Shina wrote:

The Liberating special weapon ability in this book shares the same name as the Liberating property in Weapon Master's Handbook.

They both do very different things, but I'd be more careful on duplicating names. It can cause confusion. Especially when applying both abilities to the same weapon. Although writing down +2 Liberating Liberating Greataxe would be worth the comedy.

And what could be better for a costumed defender-of-freedom than a Liberating^2 weapon?

(Except maybe an Anarchic Liberating^2 weapon.)

Would someone please share the powers and swap-outs of the Consigliere Rogue archetype?

I don't think anything (let alone specific) on it has been shared yet.
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