Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Technology Guide (PFRPG)

Gorbacz wrote:

Jeven wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Having people constantly pop up and tell you that you're a Not True Fantasy Fan because you enjoy something else than knights and princesses can sometimes get tiresome.

Other customers are just giving feedback to Paizo about their preferences and/or seeking reassurance that they are not permanently changing their focus. Its not about you.

Cool. Can that feedback be more "Hey guys, I'm really not into sci-fi!" and less "You betrayed us, True Fans of Fantasy?". Thank you.

Interesting - you'll have to show me exactly where you got that "quote". I know you wouldn't be putting words into other people's mouths just to reinforce a weak position...

By all appearances, there are a lot of people looking forward to this AP and its attendant supplements. That's fine, I'm never going to tell someone how they should have fun or what they should enjoy. What I am going to do is tell Paizo how I and others like me feel, something I consider important as a member of this community even if my opinion happens to be in the minority.

Insain Dragoon wrote:

Ultimately the most important feedback will be how we vote with our dollars.

*eyes all the campaign setting books for Iron Gods in my shopping cart*

Oh you can be sure I'm voting with my dollar....as soon as the AP subscription discount for Iron Gods kicks in! Never have I actually been excited enough to subscribe for an AP before, until I found out about and subsequently researched Iron Gods.

I will be doing the same. I plan on canceling my subscriptions for the duration of Iron Gods and using that money to buy the new Rise of the Drow products instead or maybe continue my quest to complete the AP's I've missed out on in the past, but I fully intend to return with the arrival of Giantslayer. Paizo has more than earned my loyalty and respect as a customer, but that doesn't mean I have to buy into everything they do.

To be fair, you did end with the snide remark that compares what Pathfinder is doing to the utter rules mess that is Rifts. Subtle and maybe unintentional, but it felt like the comparison was out of disgust. Also by saying that, you are essentially saying "Paizo is wrong in doing this and leave it to another system". Which, for those of us that like more options, is something we think is bunk. It's like saying "Paizo, don't do Tian Xia. If I wanted that, I'd play Lot5R". Feels very dismissive of our likes.

To be fair, you did end with the snide remark that compares what Pathfinder is doing to the utter rules mess that is Rifts. Subtle and maybe unintentional, but still there.

Feels very dismissive of our likes.

I think if you go back and re-read my posts and all of the responses that came after it, I'm not the one being dismissive of the likes and dislikes of others... I'm expressing my opinion, and being castigated for it, so much so that James had to step in and say that there was room for all opinions, even dissenting ones.

Move over lame demons, we welcome I new robot overlords.

For instance, check out Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson. It's basically high fantasy with power armors and huge light-saber (not quite but similar) swords. And you'd be hard pressed to find more popular writer of fantasy amongst the current crop of authors.

One should note that the power armour and lightsabers are not actual technology like what you might expect to see in, say, Mass Effect. They're magic, probably artifact-level. Especially the lightsabers, after the second book - they're straight magic, even if it's magic that lacks the hallmarks of traditional D&D stuff (a good thing, in my opinion, but I digress). Possibly not the Shardplate either, but we don't know how those are created yet.

It would be more accurate to say, I think, that while Way of Kings has things that have somewhat similar effects to known sci-fi elements (such as the aforementioned power armour and lightsabers), those things are still magic in nature.

Alloy of Law would probably be a better example, especially in a comparison to Alkenstar. Or, to draw on a different author, Brian McLellan's Powder Mage trilogy. Although it doesn't go into sci-fi, but instead sticks to roughly around the American Civil War.

[/fantasy book digression]

Odraude wrote:

To be fair, you did end with the snide remark that compares what Pathfinder is doing to the utter rules mess that is Rifts. Subtle and maybe unintentional, but still there.

To be fair, I didn't mention a thing about rules but rather the mish-mashed themes of an RPG that combines swords and sorcery, psionics, aliens, extra-dimensional beings, laser guns and power armor. Anyone who chose to misread it as a reference to mechanical defects in the game is projecting their own issues - subtly and maybe unintentionally, but still doing so.

Odraude wrote:

Feels very dismissive of our likes.

I think if you go back and re-read my posts and all of the responses that came after it, I'm not the one being dismissive of the likes and dislikes of others... I'm expressing my opinion, and being castigated for it, so much so that James had to step in and say that there was room for all opinions, even dissenting ones.

Except you kind of are being dismissive. You made it clear that you don't want Paizo to do this with your Rifts comment. Pretty much a "Why do this when we have Rifts?" Imagine if you wanted more classic fantasy and someone said "Why publish more classic fantasy when we have 30+ years of that to work with"? Probably wouldn't like that, no? Same with the "Is Paizo Being Too Genre Inclusive" thread you posted in. It's essentially saying, "Yes Paizo is being too genre inclusive and I'm afraid it'd going to overshadow what I like, so they shouldn't do it". Or else, why post this "fear that fans of classic/high fantasy" that you have? What is it you meant when you had a fear for the Technology Guide? ;)

Honestly, I'm not dismissive of peoples' wants from Pathfinder, and at the very least, I'm not of yours. I love having options, even if I don't use them. I think that having option for people that like classic fantasy is great. And I think having options for people that like sword and planet style is great as well. And psionics and eastern settings and New World settings... For me, having options for everyone is great for the fan base. The beauty of it is you don't have to buy it if you don't like it. I may never run an eastern campaign, but it's great that someone has the tools to run one. And as Paizo has shown, they will continue to support different genres and playstyles. Which is awesome. It means you get to enjoy Pathfinder how you wish, and I get to enjoy Pathfinder how I wish. The existence of what you like doesn't lower my enjoyment of Pathfinder, and vice versa.

Everyone can have their cake and eat it too. And cake is awesome :D

Odraude for the win everybody! :D

Gorbacz wrote:

Jeven wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Having people constantly pop up and tell you that you're a Not True Fantasy Fan because you enjoy something else than knights and princesses can sometimes get tiresome.

Other customers are just giving feedback to Paizo about their preferences and/or seeking reassurance that they are not permanently changing their focus. Its not about you.

Cool. Can that feedback be more "Hey guys, I'm really not into sci-fi!" and less "You betrayed us, True Fans of Fantasy?". Thank you.

Interesting - you'll have to show me exactly where you got that "quote". I know you wouldn't be putting words into other people's mouths just to reinforce a weak position...

Per your request,

It’s one thing to face a dragon armed with a longsword and a suit of magic plate mail, but what if you had an atom gun and powered armor? How many zombies could you blow up with a rocket launcher? What happens if you’re standing next to a graviton reactor when it explodes?

A quote like this terrifies me and the many other fans of classic or high fantasy... if we wanted to play Rifts, we would be.

My 2 cp.

To me your comment read, and still reads, as you speaking for ALL fans of classic or high fantasy. I happen to number myself in that group and frankly sir, you do not speak for me.

No your exact words do not match Gorbacz's quote, but the tone implied by them is pretty clear. You were in fact being dismissive of people who don't agree with you.

EDIT: or rather your words were dismissive of people who did not agree with you.

I am not being dismissive of what you want out of Paizo. NEither is Gorbacz.

nightflier wrote:

For instance, check out Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson. It's basically high fantasy with power armors and huge light-saber (not quite but similar) swords. And you'd be hard pressed to find more popular writer of fantasy amongst the current crop of authors.

One should note that the power armour and lightsabers are not actual technology like what you might expect to see in, say, Mass Effect. They're magic, probably artifact-level. Especially the lightsabers, after the second book - they're straight magic, even if it's magic that lacks the hallmarks of traditional D&D stuff (a good thing, in my opinion, but I digress). Possibly not the Shardplate either, but we don't know how those are created yet.

It would be more accurate to say, I think, that while Way of Kings has things that have somewhat similar effects to known sci-fi elements (such as the aforementioned power armour and lightsabers), those things are still magic in nature.

Alloy of Law would probably be a better example, especially in a comparison to Alkenstar. Or, to draw on a different author, Brian McLellan's Powder Mage trilogy. Although it doesn't go into sci-fi, but instead sticks to roughly around the American Civil War.

[/fantasy book digression]

Well, yes. Although it is kinda possible that the whole setting is in fact SF rather than fantasy. There are some subtle hints. Digression aside, yes those things are (for now) magical, but the feel is more sci-fi (in my opinion). Although, I had one player in my old campaign that I ran in 1999 devise a spell that sucks out "pluses" from magic items into gems, and uses those gems as a temporary power sources for other magic items. That was way before Eberron :) I improved on that idea, and now that world has Iountech based exactly on those very high fantasy roots.

Wiggz wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Jeven wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Having people constantly pop up and tell you that you're a Not True Fantasy Fan because you enjoy something else than knights and princesses can sometimes get tiresome.

Other customers are just giving feedback to Paizo about their preferences and/or seeking reassurance that they are not permanently changing their focus. Its not about you.

Cool. Can that feedback be more "Hey guys, I'm really not into sci-fi!" and less "You betrayed us, True Fans of Fantasy?". Thank you.

Interesting - you'll have to show me exactly where you got that "quote". I know you wouldn't be putting words into other people's mouths just to reinforce a weak position...

Per your request,

Wiggz wrote:

It’s one thing to face a dragon armed with a longsword and a suit of magic plate mail, but what if you had an atom gun and powered armor? How many zombies could you blow up with a rocket launcher? What happens if you’re standing next to a graviton reactor when it explodes?

A quote like this terrifies me and the many other fans of classic or high fantasy... if we wanted to play Rifts, we would be.

My 2 cp.

To me your comment read, and still reads, as you speaking for ALL fans of classic or high fantasy. I happen to number myself in that group and frankly sir, you do not speak for me.

No your exact words do not match Gorbacz's quote, but the tone implied by them is pretty clear. You were in fact being dismissive of people who don't agree with you.

EDIT: or rather your words were dismissive of people who did not agree with you.

I am not being dismissive of what you want out of Paizo. NEither is Gorbacz.

To be fair, Gorbacz is. But that's Gorbacz for ya!

*cue sitcom canned laughter*

And the constant defensive "it's OK, Iron Gods is just a phase, then we're back to your beloved traditionalist giants and orcs stuff" from Paizo staff doesn't help much.

Maybe Paizo isn't the game company for you? I'm sure there are other rpg companies who on regular basis produce non-standard fantasy gaming material.

As it stands - Paizo is going to be doing this type of creative content as a one-off, and most of their customers support that.

Gorbacz wrote:

And the constant defensive "it's OK, Iron Gods is just a phase, then we're back to your beloved traditionalist giants and orcs stuff" from Paizo staff doesn't help much.

Maybe Paizo isn't the game company for you? I'm sure there are other rpg companies who on regular basis produce non-standard fantasy gaming material.

As it stands - Paizo is going to be doing this type of creative content as a one-off, and most of their customers support that.

However, they are getting a great deal of support from fan for more than just the standard western fantasy. First it was Distant Worlds, then Rasputin Must Die, and now Numeria. So while it might seem like one-offs, they are giving a great deal of more support for these style of play. And chances are they won't stop.

Then again, I still wish there was more support for Tian Xia than just some PFS modules. So, who knows.

Auxmaulous wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

And the constant defensive "it's OK, Iron Gods is just a phase, then we're back to your beloved traditionalist giants and orcs stuff" from Paizo staff doesn't help much.

Maybe Paizo isn't the game company for you? I'm sure there are other rpg companies who on regular basis produce non-standard fantasy gaming material.

As it stands - Paizo is going to be doing this type of creative content as a one-off, and most of their customers support that.

However, they are getting a great deal of support from fan for more than just the standard western fantasy.

I don't doubt that they are getting support - but not more support than "traditional" fantasy (whatever the hell that means).

First it was Distant Worlds, then Rasputin Must Die, and now Numeria. So while it might seem like one-offs, they are giving a great deal of more support for these style of play. And chances are they won't stop.

And no where in my post did I say they should nor implied that they would.

Then again, I still wish there was more support for Tian Xia than just some PFS modules. So, who knows.

Probably better supported via the single module line or campaign setting. But I'm sure in a few years the will do a OA style AP.

OA? what does that stand for?

I would love me some more Tian Xia love along with Distant Worlds, Arcadia, Garund, Sarusan, Azlant, and Casmaron.

Oriental Adventures.

I should have known that, thanks for answering Odraude.

Alright everyone lets get back to the subject of the product and expectations for it, and leave the technology vs. magic to another thread.

*puts vodka on the table for slavic members on the message boards*

*raises his glass, 2 fingers of scotch* To the product.

I'm actually really interested in the non-weapon items, and to questions like, "Can you make an item with an AI into an Intelligent Magic Item?"

Real-life Chainsaw-Sword.

Real-life Chainsaw-Sword.

That looks kind of puny. :(

But I give them props for the attempt, at least. It's a good step towards something like on the cover of Lords of Rust.

I'm actually really interested in the non-weapon items, and to questions like, "Can you make an item with an AI into an Intelligent Magic Item?"

Which raises an interesting theosophical question: How would an AI and an intelligent magical item regard one another?

Tels wrote:

Real-life Chainsaw-Sword.

That looks kind of puny. :(

But I give them props for the attempt, at least. It's a good step towards something like on the cover of Lords of Rust.

I look upon it as a prototype.

Graeme Lewis wrote:

I'm actually really interested in the non-weapon items, and to questions like, "Can you make an item with an AI into an Intelligent Magic Item?"

Which raises an interesting theosophical question: How would an AI and an intelligent magical item regard one another?

Warily. :-)

So I am wondering if we will get more stats for a tech familiar.

So I am wondering if we will get more stats for a tech familiar.

If we don't get them here, we'll likely get them in one of the volumes of Iron Gods (my money would be on Volume 5, and on them requiring Improved Familiar and Character Level 7).

Graeme Lewis wrote:

I'm actually really interested in the non-weapon items, and to questions like, "Can you make an item with an AI into an Intelligent Magic Item?"

Which raises an interesting theosophical question: How would an AI and an intelligent magical item regard one another?

AI, doesn't that stand for Arcane Intelligence in Pathfinder?

Seriously though, there's a ton of transhuman potential already in the game.

Intelligent weapons and constructs.
Animals/Vermin that have been Awakened.
People magic jarring into new bodies.
Homonculi, simulacra, clones.
Discorporate souls continuing to exist post-mortem as undead or petitioners.
Familiars and *ex* familiars (some of whom might retain some lingering unusual intelligence or capabilities).
People changing form and species and type through means as varied as gaining X levels in Dragon Disciple, or being half-this and half-that, or being reincarnated into a new creature type.
People being raised or resurrected from the dead, or ceasing to age (immortality discovery, Thuvian elixirs), or just aging ridiculously slowly (elf).

Sentient machines just adds another course to a big buffet of options to tell post-human 'who counts as people?' and 'who gets rights?' types of stories.

In Geb, for instance, the Dead Laws allow a ghoul or vampire or ghost to 'inherit' his own stuff from life, while, technically, in any other country, if someone's meat gets cold enough, all of their belongings and properties can lawfully be pillaged by their heirs (who might even hire monster-hunters or exorcists to evict them from their own homes, and / or this plane of existence), even if they are still active and doing stuff.

And yet ownership and legal rights of dead parties is completely arbitrary, as the Knights of Ozem seem to think that Geb 'stole' the corpse of Arazni, while, any other day of the year, they'd insist that dead people don't have any right of ownership over anything... As with most such laws, they are inconsistent in favor of the people crafting them. People they don't like (dead folk), don't get rights. If people they don't like do something they don't like (corpse-robbing), on the other hand, they'll totally make that illegal, even if it contradicts their previous stance of five-minutes-ago.

Intelligence alone, or even self-awareness, clearly isn't enough to grant rights of personhood (as many 'monsters,' but also intelligent magic items, constructs, familiars, awakened animals & plants, etc. would attest).

Such things would be philosophical ivory-tower stuff in most lands, but in post-Iron Gods Numeria, when there are self-aware machine people walking around, it could become a serious question, one that only Geb has attempted to resolve (and only in the very specific case of undead) before. (Perhaps also Nex, regarding ooze hive-minds, or even sentient items and constructs, but until we get a 64 page treatment on that nation, it's up in the air what sort of, if any, rights or citizenship status intelligent magical creations have.)

*snipped a whole lot of interesting stuff I hadn't even seriously considered when I wrote my "AI meets Sentient Item (SI?) post*

That's actually a whole lot more insight than I'd considered, but it definitely gets me thinking. There is certainly a lot of room to take a deeper look into things.

On top of "ownership" issues and property rights like you mention, that brings me back to AIs and intelligent items- can one really say that, as an example, that Intelligent Sword is theirs? If it's sentient, isn't it really its own item, and not property? Or the obverse- since they are generally non-mobile and require a tool user to wield- what would their views be on property and ownership? Would they see their wielder as just a "mule"?

It actually makes me look at the whole Ego/Personality Conflict rules in a different light. RAW, the items generally only conflict when a user attempts to use it in a goal that is contrary to the item's own interests, but perhaps these sorts of struggles would be even more commonplace. Hm.

It also reminds me of a similar- related- issue, in particular your mention of Geb, in regards to the Ghoran- vegetable people created as essentially cattle to feed the populace- but intelligent cattle (or even vegepygmies, as originally introduced by the drow).

Some heady stuff.

Removed some fighty posts. Come on folks, let's enjoy the game in all of its many genres and interpretations. No need to tell somebody else they're doing it wrong, or that their fun is invalid because it's not your kind of fun.

I really, really want there to be options for my Angel-kin Aasimar fighter with regards to stuff like clockwork and/or cybernetic prosthetic limbs. Metal Wings, yeah he'll take those with his feats, but get me a metal hand that can take a wand built into the wrist and as a backup or last resort type thing, drain that want to empower all his close combat attacks with some sort of elemental power.
Kinda the way clockwork familiars can drain wands and such for their own abilities.

This book could have twice the number of pages and it would be still too few. I am totally in favor of future material like this one.

I'm hoping that everything I need to make a Flash Gordon campaign will be in here.

I really, really want there to be options for my Angel-kin Aasimar fighter with regards to stuff like clockwork and/or cybernetic prosthetic limbs. Metal Wings, yeah he'll take those with his feats, but get me a metal hand that can take a wand built into the wrist and as a backup or last resort type thing, drain that want to empower all his close combat attacks with some sort of elemental power.

Kinda the way clockwork familiars can drain wands and such for their own abilities.

There already is an ability for Aasimars to get metal wings from the ARG. Metal Wings feat

Major_Blackhart wrote:

I really, really want there to be options for my Angel-kin Aasimar fighter with regards to stuff like clockwork and/or cybernetic prosthetic limbs. Metal Wings, yeah he'll take those with his feats, but get me a metal hand that can take a wand built into the wrist and as a backup or last resort type thing, drain that want to empower all his close combat attacks with some sort of elemental power.

Kinda the way clockwork familiars can drain wands and such for their own abilities.

There already is an ability for Aasimars to get metal wings from the ARG. Metal Wings feat

Yeah I know, I said that in the above post.

This book could have twice the number of pages and it would be still too few. I am totally in favor of future material like this one.

The book could have five times the number of pages and it'd only barely be enough.

It sucks to watch people come in and voice such negative opinions of something your totally amped about. Those of us who like syfy feel like anyone who dislikes it should just ease up and let us have our day for once. We can have both fantasy and syfy:)

It sucks to watch people come in and voice such negative opinions of something your totally amped about. Those of us who like syfy feel like anyone who dislikes it should just ease up and let us have our day for once. We can have both fantasy and syfy:)

Can we have sci-fi or SF instead of syfy? Because syfy is... I think it's an obscene Polish word. Gorbacz?

syfy is how its spelled at the bottom of my tv screen...

I want sci-fi in my pathfinder, not "syfy";)

I wish august would hurry up and get here.

I want sci-fi in my pathfinder, not "syfy";)

Oh, I don't know about that...

Sharknado DC 22
Mansquito DC 12
Lorenzo Lamas DC "Whatever the hell the plot demands"

I wish august would hurry up and get here.

I know, right? Between this and my vacation first week of August, this has felt like the longest July ever.

jimibones83 wrote:

It sucks to watch people come in and voice such negative opinions of something your totally amped about. Those of us who like syfy feel like anyone who dislikes it should just ease up and let us have our day for once. We can have both fantasy and syfy:)

Can we have sci-fi or SF instead of syfy? Because syfy is... I think it's an obscene Polish word. Gorbacz?

It's plural from 'syf' which itself comes from 'syfilis', and means a really ugly mess. Fustercluck is the closest English equivalent.

Syfy is a channel. They deliberately changed the spelling of it from Sci-fi so they could trademark it

And...well Pathfinder already has the Sharktopus from Syfy channel in the game :)

i mean dont get me wrong, i know how its spelled, but syfy is easier than sci-fi, so if they are both acceptable then ill go with the easier one. i was unaware it was slang for syphilis in poland though lol.

I like sci fi in my fantasy, but onlly if it's spelled sci fi :p

In the good old days of my youth, "sci-fi" was a deprecated term, at least by aficionados of science fiction, because it was applied to stuff (movies and television mostly) that wasn't "real" science fiction, but more Hollywood shlock. "Syfy" just takes that a step further, imo.

In the good old days of my youth, "sci-fi" was a deprecated term, at least by aficionados of science fiction, because it was applied to stuff (movies and television mostly) that wasn't "real" science fiction, but more Hollywood shlock. "Syfy" just takes that a step further, imo.

considering i dont know the difference, the shlock is probably all i know. but i do enjoy it quite a bit

People don't read much anymore, but try anything by Robert Heinlein, Arthur C. Clarke, Isaac Asimov (old masters), David Weber, John Ringo, Lois McMaster Bujold, Spider Robinson, Alan Dean Foster. There are many other good ones. Google the Hugo and Nebula Awards for ideas. Or go to Baen books and look at their author list.

I was introduced (at a local library) to Heinlein when I was twelve. I've been an avid fan of good science fiction for 55 years.

"So? 3,000 of them, and 20 of us. Sounds to me like they're in trouble." - Admiral Lady Dame Honor Stephanie Harrington, Steadholder Harrington, Duchess Harrington, SG, PMV, etc., etc.

I like sci fi in my fantasy, but onlly if it's spelled sci fi :p

I like Sci-Fi and SyFy in my fantasy....

This book could have twice the number of pages and it would be still too few. I am totally in favor of future material like this one.

I find it weird they do a small amount of pages or a huge hardcover. Why doesn't Paizo ever do something more in the middle now and then? Like with something like this, for example?