Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Class Guide (OGL)

Here's another question for those who have the ACG already, does the base hunter or any of the hunter archetypes qualify for Monstrous Mount?

So I read the Swashbuckler. Then came here to confirm the most baffling thing I found. Yep, no dex to damage for the most iconic weapon of a swashbuckler. Closest I can get is a feat tax and using a cutlass. The whole reason I bought this book was because of this class and a promise in a blog post for dex to damage. For the first time, I honestly feel a little cheated by Paizo.

Well, we'll see if the developers will address this, either here or at GenCon. I hope that they don't try to ignore this matter.

Xen wrote:

So I read the Swashbuckler. Then came here to confirm the most baffling thing I found. Yep, no dex to damage for the most iconic weapon of a swashbuckler. Closest I can get is a feat tax and using a cutlass. The whole reason I bought this book was because of this class and a promise in a blog post for dex to damage. For the first time, I honestly feel a little cheated by Paizo.

What's stopping you from house-ruling it into a class feature or feat?

The fact that many GM's and all of PFS don't roll with house rules?

Not to mention that giving Bastard Swords and Dwarven Waraxes dex-to-damage and not Rapiers is absurd.

I need to step out for a bit so that's everything from me for now - if you leave questions I'll do my best to find answers when I'm back. :)

I'd like to comment here about a number of promises that I believe Paizo made that are supposed to fulfilled in this book.

First, this book was supposed to bring the troops back from the Worldwound on an aggressive timetable, so they could all be home with their families in time for the fall harvest festival.

Second, Habe's Sanatorium in Varisia was supposed to be closed down.

Third, as a basic human right, we were supposed to get free access to remove disease, remove curse and other condition removing scrolls, even if we aren't active Pathfinders going on adventures.

Wait...

Xen wrote:

So I read the Swashbuckler. Then came here to confirm the most baffling thing I found. Yep, no dex to damage for the most iconic weapon of a swashbuckler. Closest I can get is a feat tax and using a cutlass. The whole reason I bought this book was because of this class and a promise in a blog post for dex to damage. For the first time, I honestly feel a little cheated by Paizo.

What's stopping you from house-ruling it into a class feature or feat?

Because our PFS Brothers and Sisters deserve justice!

Also what Magnuskn said.

FREE BEER
(tomorrow)

What's stopping you from house-ruling it into a class feature or feat?

I was actually looking forward to playing this class in PFS, so I won't be able to house rule it. Also, my home group isn't a fan of house rules.

Is there any support for ranger traps, skirmisher ranger tricks, bardic masterpieces, or new traits?

Also could someone shed more light on the spontaneous magus?

For the folks who continue to express concern about swashbucklers and rapier damage, I encourage you all to take the rapier-only swashbuckler archetype through a DPR spreadsheet and really be certain it's lacking on the damage output compared to a swashbuckler wielding a battleaxe... at least before venting a sixth or seventh time.

There is a swashbuckler archetype that focuses exclusively on the rapier which has a number of goodies like getting an extra feat at 1st level (hey, free Weapon Focus on top of finesse) and who's weapon training damage is an advancement step ahead of the regular weapon training damage advancement.

This is the same one with the bigger panache pool that gets to add Intelligence to attack rolls. It also gets the ability to spend a point of panache to automatically threaten a critical hit and an improved critical range ability that stacks with keen and improved critical. That's right. Stacks!

I suspect if you took the rapier swashbuckler at level 1, 5, 8, 12 and 20 - you might fight not only does it do just as much damage, it does even more.

I suspect this is why the designers/developers are quiet here as well, since they've already gone through this exercise.

There is also an obscene amount of swashbuckler magic gear in this book, from capes to rapiers to sleeves to hat plumes. Swashbuckler looks very strong.

Cool. We have a swashbuckler who guarantees critically with his magic floppy hat and couture clothing. I'm in.

What about the Bloodrager archetypes? I gather there are loads!

I forgot about the PFS. I'm not a PFS member, and I definitely house rule in my games to make if more flexible to our gameplay style. I am surprised that GMs don't house rule. It's even encouraged in the GM guide. Dex-to-damage is something I definitely don't like, but I see it making sense for a scimitar or something similar, not a dwarven axe. But I guess it depends on how you flavor your description of your attacks in combat. You should house rule dex-damage for piercing weapons into your own games or discuss the possibility with your groups GM if people are really passionate about dex-to-damage

For the folks who continue to express concern about swashbucklers and rapier damage, I encourage you all to take the rapier-only swashbuckler archetype through a DPR spreadsheet and really be certain it's lacking on the damage output compared to a swashbuckler wielding a battleaxe... at least before venting a sixth or seventh time.

There is a swashbuckler archetype that focuses exclusively on the rapier which has a number of goodies like getting an extra feat at 1st level (hey, free Weapon Focus on top of finesse) and who's weapon training damage is an advancement step ahead of the regular weapon training damage advancement.

This is the same one with the bigger panache pool that gets to add Intelligence to attack rolls. It also gets the ability to spend a point of panache to automatically threaten a critical hit and an improved critical range ability that stacks with keen and improved critical. That's right. Stacks!

I suspect if you took the rapier swashbuckler at level 1, 5, 8, 12 and 20 - you might fight not only does it do just as much damage, it does even more.

I suspect this is why the designers/developers are quiet here as well, since they've already gone through this exercise.

There is also an obscene amount of swashbuckler magic gear in this book, from capes to rapiers to sleeves to hat plumes. Swashbuckler looks very strong.

First off, I am playing a Swashbuckler at level 14 in a RotRL campaign at this time. I can't imagine that my GM is letting me rebuild the character completely to accomodate an archetype which obviously is built with another attribute spread focus than a normal Swashbuckler would be.

Secondly, this still does not address at all the utter absurdity of bastard swords and dwarven waraxes getting dex-to-damage, while rapiers (and all other one-handed/light piercing weapons, mind you) do not.

For the folks who continue to express concern about swashbucklers and rapier damage, I encourage you all to take the rapier-only swashbuckler archetype through a DPR spreadsheet and really be certain it's lacking on the damage output compared to a swashbuckler wielding a battleaxe... at least before venting a sixth or seventh time.

There is a swashbuckler archetype that focuses exclusively on the rapier which has a number of goodies like getting an extra feat at 1st level (hey, free Weapon Focus on top of finesse) and who's weapon training damage is an advancement step ahead of the regular weapon training damage advancement.

This is the same one with the bigger panache pool that gets to add Intelligence to attack rolls. It also gets the ability to spend a point of panache to automatically threaten a critical hit and an improved critical range ability that stacks with keen and improved critical. That's right. Stacks!

I suspect if you took the rapier swashbuckler at level 1, 5, 8, 12 and 20 - you might fight not only does it do just as much damage, it does even more.

I suspect this is why the designers/developers are quiet here as well, since they've already gone through this exercise.

There is also an obscene amount of swashbuckler magic gear in this book, from capes to rapiers to sleeves to hat plumes. Swashbuckler looks very strong.

Any chance you could post some more info on that archetype? I agree, I wish people would relax about the rapier thing ATM perhaps there is a trait which let's you use a 1h piercing weapon as slashing? Or you just take a scimitar and say, look at how beautiful my "rapier" is...

I am getting funny pictures in my head of axe wielding dwarven swashbucklers :)

Cool. We have a swashbuckler who guarantees critically with his magic floppy hat and couture clothing. I'm in.

What about the Bloodrager archetypes? I gather there are loads!

Blood Conduit: A magical groper.

For the folks who continue to express concern about swashbucklers and rapier damage, I encourage you all to take the rapier-only swashbuckler archetype through a DPR spreadsheet and really be certain it's lacking on the damage output compared to a swashbuckler wielding a battleaxe... at least before venting a sixth or seventh time.

There is a swashbuckler archetype that focuses exclusively on the rapier which has a number of goodies like getting an extra feat at 1st level (hey, free Weapon Focus on top of finesse) and who's weapon training damage is an advancement step ahead of the regular weapon training damage advancement.

This is the same one with the bigger panache pool that gets to add Intelligence to attack rolls. It also gets the ability to spend a point of panache to automatically threaten a critical hit and an improved critical range ability that stacks with keen and improved critical. That's right. Stacks!

I suspect if you took the rapier swashbuckler at level 1, 5, 8, 12 and 20 - you might fight not only does it do just as much damage, it does even more.

I suspect this is why the designers/developers are quiet here as well, since they've already gone through this exercise.

There is also an obscene amount of swashbuckler magic gear in this book, from capes to rapiers to sleeves to hat plumes. Swashbuckler looks very strong.

This sounds awesome, I am very excited about this aaaand I cannot wait to have my book shipped and at my door in probably a few weeks. A rapier focused archetype is exactly what I wanted

Speaking of traits for swashbucklers, how about a favored class bonus teaser? I don't know if this will garner "that's awesome" or "I hate swaxe-bucklers even more!" responses, probably a bit of both.

I apologize to the PDT in advance for posting this one verbatim, but it is just a FCB, and I imagine if not posted this way, it would be even more contentious!

Any more info on the Inquisitor archetype that gets slayer combat styles? I am VERY interested in this as I was contemplating a dip into an inquisitor for the spells and inquisition or a ranger for the combat style.

Having both would be awesome.

Speaking of traits for swashbucklers, how about a favored class bonus teaser? I don't know if this will garner "that's awesome" or "I hate swaxe-bucklers even more!" responses, probably a bit of both.

It's not that I suddenly hate the idea of axe-wielding dwarven swashbucklers. I am pretty agnostic on the whole concept.

It is just bizarre to me that they get preference over rapier wielding swashbucklers. Why?!?

Xen wrote:

So I read the Swashbuckler. Then came here to confirm the most baffling thing I found. Yep, no dex to damage for the most iconic weapon of a swashbuckler. Closest I can get is a feat tax and using a cutlass. The whole reason I bought this book was because of this class and a promise in a blog post for dex to damage. For the first time, I honestly feel a little cheated by Paizo.

Well, we'll see if the developers will address this, either here or at GenCon. I hope that they don't try to ignore this matter.

Relevant:

I'm afraid it's actually official policy not to wade full throttle into the pre-release question threads triggered by the early PDFs, when many people received information secondhand or possibly missed a line of text in their excitement (not saying that happened here, since there was a cut and paste).

So no need to worry that the designers ignoring the discussion here. They're just not speaking up yet. I imagine we'll hear a lot more from them after GenCon, perhaps with a bit of a delay to let the forums work on the new book and identify potential problems / areas of concern. (The forums are great at gathering that data, after all. Lots of folks working on it, and folks who haven't seen the text a thousand times and so can look with fresh eyes.)

:-)

Speaking of traits for swashbucklers, how about a favored class bonus teaser? I don't know if this will garner "that's awesome" or "I hate swaxe-bucklers even more!" responses, probably a bit of both.

I apologize to the PDT in advance for posting this one verbatim, but it is just a FCB, and I imagine if not posted this way, it would be even more contentious!

** spoiler omitted **

Wait, what?

"If the swashbuckler has the Slashing Grace feat or another similar effect, she can treat the battleaxe or handaxe as a one-handed piercing melee weapon"

Why is this text there? Slashing Grace already lets you treat the Battle Axe as a one-handed piercing weapon.

However, the handaxe is a light weapon. if you can use one light weapon with slashing grace, does it apply to other light weapons?

wakedown wrote:

Speaking of traits for swashbucklers, how about a favored class bonus teaser? I don't know if this will garner "that's awesome" or "I hate swaxe-bucklers even more!" responses, probably a bit of both.

I apologize to the PDT in advance for posting this one verbatim, but it is just a FCB, and I imagine if not posted this way, it would be even more contentious!

** spoiler omitted **

Wait, what?

"If the swashbuckler has the Slashing Grace feat or another similar effect, she can treat the battleaxe or handaxe as a one-handed piercing melee weapon"

Why is this text there? Slashing Grace already lets you treat the Battle Axe as a one-handed piercing weapon.

However, the handaxe is a light weapon. if you can use one light weapon with slashing grace, does it apply to other light weapons?

"or another similar effect"

It is just bizarre to me that they get preference over rapier wielding swashbucklers. Why?!?

Allow yourself to get your hands on the full book. There is much rapier love in the book.

The "swashbuckler's rapier" is a +1 rapier costing a mere 7,320gp.

What does it do you ask?

Why, if you're holding it and spend a point of panache, you can give it the bane property for 1 round against any humanoid subtype.

There are many swashbuckler only (essentially) weapon enchants.

I'm not the developers, but there's just so much rapier love, maybe it didn't need the Dex to damage. Or maybe that ability has been cherry picked to appear in Advanced Class Origins.

I think we need to trust the developers here, who I'm certain will chime in on exactly what their process was when they can. I see no reason to get too fired up at this point since there is really so, so, so much love for rapier-wielders in the book, that it's at least clear to me that many many, many (if not most) swashbucklers will be carrying them.

So no need to worry that the designers ignoring the discussion here. They're just not speaking up yet. I imagine we'll hear a lot more from them after GenCon, perhaps with a bit of a delay to let the forums work on the new book and identify potential problems / areas of concern. (The forums are great at gathering that data, after all. Lots of folks working on it, and folks who haven't seen the text a thousand times and so can look with fresh eyes.):-)

Given that this discussion cannot have escaped their eyes (although I'd easily understand that they just have gotten into the office over in Seattle) and that they have written the book, they could then at least give us a heads-up that there is some non-absurd reasoning for this or that we simply have missed something so far.

wakedown wrote:

Speaking of traits for swashbucklers, how about a favored class bonus teaser? I don't know if this will garner "that's awesome" or "I hate swaxe-bucklers even more!" responses, probably a bit of both.

I apologize to the PDT in advance for posting this one verbatim, but it is just a FCB, and I imagine if not posted this way, it would be even more contentious!

** spoiler omitted **

Wait, what?

"If the swashbuckler has the Slashing Grace feat or another similar effect, she can treat the battleaxe or handaxe as a one-handed piercing melee weapon"

Why is this text there? Slashing Grace already lets you treat the Battle Axe as a one-handed piercing weapon.

However, the handaxe is a light weapon. if you can use one light weapon with slashing grace, does it apply to other light weapons?

Maybe because they are expecting the dwarf to take slashing grace (dwarven waraxe)'

I think we need to trust the developers here

Given Magnus's comments regarding the developers in other areas (*coughMythiccough*) I think there's about as much chance of him just trusting them as there is him spontaneously combusting and instantly reincarnating like a phoenix.

magnuskn wrote:

It is just bizarre to me that they get preference over rapier wielding swashbucklers. Why?!?

Allow yourself to get your hands on the full book. There is much rapier love in the book.

The "swashbuckler's rapier" is a +1 rapier costing a mere 7,320gp.

What does it do you ask?

Why, if you're holding it and spend a point of panache, you can give it the bane property for 1 round against any humanoid subtype.

There are many swashbuckler only (essentially) weapon enchants.

I'm not the developers, but there's just so much rapier love, maybe it didn't need the Dex to damage. Or maybe that ability has been cherry picked to appear in Advanced Class Origins.

I think we need to trust the developers here, who I'm certain will chime in on exactly what their process was when they can. I see no reason to get too fired up at this point since there is really so, so, so much love for rapier-wielders in the book, that it's at least clear to me that many many, many (if not most) swashbucklers will be carrying them.

See, goodies for the new class are nice to have. My problem here is still another thing, though.

Big unwieldy one-handed slashing weapons like bastard swords = totally fine to use dex-to-damage!

Rapiers and other traditionally dexterity-associated piercing weapons = nope.

Is there anybody who thinks that this makes sense?

wakedown wrote:

I think we need to trust the developers here

Given Magnus's comments regarding the developers in other areas (*coughMythiccough*) I think there's about as much chance of him just trusting them as there is him spontaneously combusting and instantly reincarnating like a phoenix.

Yeah, by this point it's kinda like buying repeatedly from Griftah over in Shattrah.

I'll ask again; can someone tell me if Warpriests choose to take Domains and/or maybe even Inquisitions instead of Blessings?

Are there any spells that let you change into fey or other creatures that do not have a polymorph version?

wakedown is continually making sense
wakedown do you see what happens now when you try to make sense on these forums

Could just be a typo/braino, in which the writer meant to put 'Light' and put 'One Handed' instead, or meant to put 'One Handed (Finessable)' or something and the parenthetical got dropped. That would explicitly allow for rapiers and whips to be counted, but not battle axes or bastard swords.

Given that this discussion cannot have escaped their eyes [...] and that they have written the book, they could then at least give us a heads-up that there is some non-absurd reasoning for this or that we simply have missed something so far.

It hasn't escaped them. Mark's mentioned it a couple times in his thread, though he hasn't addressed it. Plus, it seems ... unlikely that they won't be carefully watching the product thread discussing their big new rulebook.

The policy seems like a good one to me, though it does lead to these small frustrations in the meantime.

Patience.

:-)

Given that this discussion cannot have escaped their eyes (although I'd easily understand that they just have gotten into the office over in Seattle) and that they have written the book, they could then at least give us a heads-up that there is some non-absurd reasoning for this or that we simply have missed something so far.

Jason Bulmahn asked for patience earlier in this thread, explaning that GenCon prep takes up a LOT of time for everyone at Paizo. If the designers have anything to say about the game mechanics involved, it'll happen after GenCon. So, patience. :)

wakedown is continually making sense. wakedown do you see what happens now when you try to make sense on these forums

I've learned to try not to make sense here by now. I'm trolling for people to click 'favorite' on my posts now.

I've learned my techniques from the best.

I've learned them from the most electrifying forums poster in the world.

In case that doesn't work. Ranger archetype. With swashbuckler panache. That gets to target touch attack AC with bows. That is all.

So, people with the book, how does the Blade Adept archetype for arcanist hold up to the Bladebound archetype for the magus?

I don't have the final copy, but it was built off the black blade archetype ability so should be quite close. I'd love to know more about how this archetype looks in it's final form as well.

Lamontius wrote:

wakedown is continually making sense. wakedown do you see what happens now when you try to make sense on these forums

I've learned to try not to make sense here by now. I'm trolling for people to click 'favorite' on my posts now.

I've learned my techniques from the best.

I've learned them from the most electrifying forums poster in the world.

In case that doesn't work. Ranger archetype. With swashbuckler panache. That gets to target touch attack AC with bows. That is all.

you stop it

wakedown wrote:

Speaking of traits for swashbucklers, how about a favored class bonus teaser? I don't know if this will garner "that's awesome" or "I hate swaxe-bucklers even more!" responses, probably a bit of both.

It's not that I suddenly hate the idea of axe-wielding dwarven swashbucklers. I am pretty agnostic on the whole concept.

It is just bizarre to me that they get preference over rapier wielding swashbucklers. Why?!?

Look, it's also cutlass wielders getting preference over spiked shield, heavy pickaxe, trident, morningstar, and short spear users. Yes, rapier is iconic. So is cutlass. There will be silly things either way. They have provided an archetype for the rapier wielders, and house ruling remains as viable as it ever does.

My operating theory will be that they wanted to give River Tam access to Dex-to-damage when dual-wielding hand axes because waif-fu is cooler with axes. That, or they chose to go with piratical swashbucklers and give the others archetypes.

I, however am upset at not getting Dex-to-damage on two-handed bludgeoning weapons like the iconic comedically-oversized mallet.

Spelleater, Untouchable, and Metarager look pretty cool! I'm really looking forward to Bloodrager.

Even though I'm baffled too by no rapier and dex damage could we take that discussion elsewhere? This is not the rapier thread.

Also, as Set pointed out there might be an explanation for this.

Anybody noticed an earlier post saying the hunter has lost its cantrips? that information was wrong and based on a misunderstanding! .

Let it go or take the raper/dex - damage elsewhere. Please

More info on the investigator?

I knew about the ranger archetype. Tell me about the spontaneous casting magus instead.

magnuskn wrote:

Given that this discussion cannot have escaped their eyes [...] and that they have written the book, they could then at least give us a heads-up that there is some non-absurd reasoning for this or that we simply have missed something so far.

It hasn't escaped them. Mark's mentioned it a couple times in his thread, though he hasn't addressed it. Plus, it seems ... unlikely that they won't be carefully watching the product thread discussing their big new rulebook.

The policy seems like a good one to me, though it does lead to these small frustrations in the meantime.

Patience.

:-)

It literally would take them one minute of their time to write down a reassurance that they are going to discuss the topic later. I can understand that time is tight at this moment due to GenCon, but at least they should come down here and give some reassurance themselves that they are going to address this.

Yeah, I am a bit short on trust right now. Sorry. :-/

Given that this discussion cannot have escaped their eyes (although I'd easily understand that they just have gotten into the office over in Seattle) and that they have written the book, they could then at least give us a heads-up that there is some non-absurd reasoning for this or that we simply have missed something so far.

Somehow I think Gen Con prep trumps answering your questions, no matter how important you think your question is.

Seriously, the book has been in a handful of people's hands for less than 24 hours. Chill out. Imagine the dark ages before the Internet when you might have to wait months, if ever, to see a mention in Dragon.

Even though I'm baffled too by no rapier and dex damage could we take that discussion elsewhere? This is not the rapier thread.

Also, as Set pointed out there might be an explanation for this.

Let it go or take the raper/dex - damage elsewhere. Please

This is the product thread for the book containing the swashbuckler class and the Slashing Grace feat. There really is no more appropiate thread at this time, because the book hasn't released yet.

you stop it I am blushing right down to my bones

Truth! And you bastard, you were immediately favorited by Jim Groves. Perhaps karma though after he tried to kill your favorite PC with silent lightning.

I'd love to know more about how this archetype looks in it's final form as well.

You!!! Evil man!!! Stop trying to kill all my PFS characters!!!

Wait, I mean of course, so I can murd-- appropriately challenge Lamontius's PFS characters!

I can't wait to play my Dhampir Swashbuckler who uses bastard swords and now I have a new character idea for a Dwarf Swashbuckler who uses axes.

I'm going to have to donate blood and/or live off ramen but I am getting this book as soon as it drops.

Can anyone give me more info on the Slayer? Is there a "tunnel rat" archetype?

What sort of goodies does the Investigator get?

SM

There really is no more appropiate thread at this time, because the book hasn't released yet.

There is this thing labelled "Add New Thread" that you can use to create a more appropriate thread. It's like magic!

Look, it's also cutlass wielders getting preference over spiked shield, heavy pickaxe, trident, morningstar, and short spear users. Yes, rapier is iconic. So is cutlass. There will be silly things either way. They have provided an archetype for the rapier wielders, and house ruling remains as viable as it ever does.

Yet their iconic swashbuckler uses a rapier. I mean, I know that PF iconics are supposed to be pretty horrible mechanically...

Somehow I think Gen Con prep trumps answering your questions, no matter how important you think your question is.

Seriously, the book has been in a handful of people's hands for less than 24 hours. Chill out. Imagine the dark ages before the Internet when you might have to wait months, if ever, to see a mention in Dragon.

Yeah, I know, I know. It's still frustrating as hell.

There is this thing labelled "Add New Thread" that you can use to create a more appropriate thread. It's like magic!

And yet, adding a new thread about a topic which has not been 100% confirmed, as pointed out by many, seems more wasteful than containing this discussion in the thread which already has most of it. Magic!