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Pad300, the PRD states

prd wrote:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

I didn't read too much more of your build but that would remove the second AoO you have listed for moving in.

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First I will say the following may contain spoilers for the show Game of Thrones / book series a song of ice and fire.

Well she has almost no combat abilities and no direct control over dragons. If you wanted to make a character close to her abilities I would says something along the lines of :

Human Commoner 1/Aristocrat 3, high Cha and Int, skills in bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, profession: Queen. Use some of her WBL to buy a dragon hatchling and give her a custom feat that grants wild empathy ability only usable on her dragon.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
It goes back to being mithral bars. Its a transmutation spell, not conjuration.

This was my hope as well. Since the spell effect changed the material into the armor, I was hoping when the spell effect ended the armor would change back into material.

Since the cost of a large mithral breastplate is now 16800 gold, If I bought mithral and other materials (I'm assuming straps, bolts, rivets etc) equal to 1/3 the cost, so 5600 gold, I could turn those into large mithral barding with sufficient craft check for masterwork.

I do see that there are differing views on if it would change back at the end of the scenario though so this might not be the best thing to try.

Thanks! I thought we were in the PFS forums. Also I didn't know the item just disappeared when the spell effect ended, I guess that is a reasonable interpretation.

If I target a lump of material with fabricate and succeed at the craft check to make it into large mithral barding, what happens to it at the end of the scenario?

I know from the guide that "All spells and effects end at the end of a scenario". Does the armor revert back to the pile of materials that I had at the beginning, or would I lose all of it?

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I am very glad to finally have an official answer to this.

I am also very sad that an agile mithral breastplate for a horse now costs 17600g despite weighing, and presumably taking up the same amount of mithral as a mithral chain shirt for the same horse that costs 4400g.

First I will point out this does seem to be a general rules question, and thus would be better posted in the rules forum. I know you are asking specifically for PFS, but we use the same rules as such this wouldn't be a PFS specific ruling but a general game ruling.

That being said...

I don't believe these would work together. Swashbuckler Martial Training says to "select one martial weapon". The Elven Branched Spear is not a martial weapon. You may be treating it as one due to other abilities, but it is not actually one.

I can see how others might allow it, and I don't believe that is a bad interpretation, it just isn't how I would read it.

I'll suggest a classic conjuration wizard. With the crafting feat I assumed an increase of 25% to wbl, and any scrolls crafted at 1/2 cost.

Level 8 Divination Wizard (Foresight sub-school)
Str: 7
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 26
Wis: 11
Cha: 7
Reactionary: +2 Initiative
Clever Wordplay: Int instead of Cha for Diplomacy
take the optional racial trait fleet footed for Run and +2 initiative.
Feats:Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus Conjuration, Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration, Improved Initiative, Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Familiar (Faerie Dragon).

Notable Gear: Handy Haversack, Headband of Vast Intelligence +4, Belt of Dexterity +2, Lesser rod of extend, cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone, 4 leaf clover, pearl of power level 1x 4. 8000g left for random wands, scrolls and whatever he might want.

The basic strategy here is go first (also always act in a surprise round if there is one), size up the room and try to use 1 spell to take care of the biggest threat, or just make the fight easier for your team. with Heightened Awareness you have a + 21 initiative, (feel free to swap out improved initiative if you feel this is overkill, Heighten on create pit, glitter dust, or euphoric cloud is pretty good instead) so you should go first 99% of the time. If nothing else, set up in a good position and give your allies all Fortell bonus (foresight level 8 ability) or debuff your enemies. Do not underestimate the Prescience ability, you can use 11 times per day. Arm your Faerie Dragon with wands, scrolls, pages of spell knowledge and he/she will help a ton as a complete second spell caster. If you max out UMD it can even use a wand of ill omen on enemies before you cast a spell on them. Use your high knowledge rolls to identify your target's weak save and exploit it.

Go to spells: Start the day with Extended Mage Armor, Ant Haul, cast extended See Invisibility and heightened awareness if you think trouble might be brewing.
Level 1 spells(7 of these): Grease can still be handy at this level, DC 22 if you use a pot of grease as a material component means this is still handy for many things even at this level, keep heightened awareness ready at all times. Vanish can be handy, lasts long enough for a whole combat too if you want to start summoning.
Level 2 (6 of these): Create Pit, Glitterdust, Euphoric Cloud. Each targets a different save none of them allow SR, and they all effectively take at least 1 target out of the fight. Invisibility and See Invisibility are staples at this level as well
Level 3 (6 of these): Haste will make you friends, Aqueous Orb is so much fun to roll around the battlefield, DC 23 reflex save or be scooped up (yes please). Nauseating Trail: cast on your familiar who than goes invisible and weaves a trail through/around enemies to nauseate them (fort save)
4th level spells: (5 of these) Black Tentacles is really nasty if you know you will have an amazing roll for it using prescience! Emergency Force Sphere (prepare 2 of these, you are squishy) Summon IV starts to get interesting, mephits are a grab bag for any situation, lion does some good damage. Dimension Door is another good escape. If you took heighten, pick a level 2 spell to enjoy the higher dcs here.

I don't have a rules source for you, but I am sure that they stack. Just look at the Ankylosaurus. A heavily armored dino, has +9 to start, at advancement it gets another +2, it does not replace it's +9 with a +2.

Yes, James seems to have summed up the issue nicely. While I'm not sure I could say with certainty that the way it is now is the way it was originally intended, that doesn't really matter. The way it is now seems clear to me, and I'll have to say farewell to a certain Faerie Dragon.

Thanks for the different view points on this all.

edit: I'm just happy I was able to use him from level 7-13 :)

andreww wrote:

Mystic theurge has never advanced your familiar, I don't think the recent FAQ changes that.

Relevant FASQ

Thanks for the reply Andreww, I never thought Theurge was advancing my familiar, but I did think that the "Arcane Caster Level" requirement for improved familiar was satisfied when my Wizard caster level was sufficiently high. This was never in question for me, and it was never questioned in the games I played the character with. The FAQ I mentioned above is what is causing me to doubt that now.

Either it was always illegal and I just read the rules wrong, or the FAQ I linked caused it to be illegal. The third reading I guess would be it still is legal? It seems there is some thought on that, maybe I will bump my rules question again and hope to get some traction there on the discussion.

Hey guys, I posted about this in the general rules forum and didn't get a reply, but my main concern is for pfs so I thought I would ask here as well.

I have a Mystic Theurge that I haven't played in a couple years (Wizard 2, Cleric 1, Theurge 10). I had assumed at the time my "Arcane Caster Level" was whatever my wizard caster level was, but there was a faq about a year ago (linky)that seems to clarify this is not the case, and I would just count my wizard levels for this. This means I no longer qualify for Improved Familiar. Would I just retrain the feat and go back to the familiar I had before 7th level? Would retraining also cover all the gear I bought for my familiar to use (wands, handy haversack, ioun stones).

Thanks in advance for the help.

If you post a link to a Google spreadsheet or something, people could add links to ones they made/contributed for each kind you posted.

Nefreet wrote:

"Pregen" is actually a trademarked term. I learned this when I crafted versions of the Iconics from the APG, before the real ones were released.

And it's understandable. When someone says "Pregen", Paizo wants to make sure that the term is universally understood.

This is good to know. just call them "freegens”. free to all!

I haven't played my theurge in a couple years and I saw a FAQ that came out about a year ago that I wanted to just get some clarification on from you wonderful people :).

From my reading, a wizard 2/cleric 1/mystic theurge 10 (from before when this was legal) does not qualify for improved familiar anymore? I understand looking back people may say it never qualified, at the time I thought it did.(and never ran into anyone who disagreed)

Thanks for the help all!

Gisher,he said he won't run anything with those mechanics in them, not that he wouldn't run for players using them. A distinct and major difference.

I think the way it works by the rules is that you have to tell the animal to use the tricks, than on it's initiative it follows those orders how the GM believes it would. So on your turn you could say, ”Fluffy, attack that Target, if you miss use second chance strike, if you hit at all, use aiding attack”. I believe that would work, keep in mind the pet has a limited amount of uses of those tricks per day. Also a GM may start limiting the amount of free actions you take (each trick you tell a turn is a free action), though I haven't seen that very often.

The tentacle from this discovery can be pretty tricky, and I don't know if I am 100% correct, but I will share my interpretation of it.

The reading for it says

Tentacle Discovery wrote:
Benefit: The alchemist gains a prehensile, arm-length tentacle on his body. The tentacle is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though he can use it to make a tentacle attack (1d4 damage for a Medium alchemist, 1d3 damage for a Small one) with the grab ability.

The part that can be confusing is where it says it does not give you any extra attacks per round. That can be interpreted a few different ways. How many attacks do you have? Some GMs will look at a level 7 fighter (BAB 7) and say you have 2 attacks, so you can attack with the tentacle and your weapon as long as you don't increase your total number of attacks (2).

Well what if you are two-weapon fighting and you have improved two-weapon fighting? Now you have 4 attacks as a level 7 fighter (BaB 7). Some GMs will allow you to substitute the tentacle in for off-hand attacks as long as you do not attack more than 4 times total in a round. I think that is fair, but the rules aren't very clear so it's probably best to run it all past your GM.

Your second point is easier. The rules are clear that if it is your only natural attack you get to use it with 1.5 STR modifier at full base attack bonus, but you only get 1 attack with it when you do that, no matter what your BAB is you won't get iteratives on the natural attacks. If you attack with it while attacking with manufactured or additional natural attacks (if you ever gain them) it would be treated as a secondary weapon.

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I don't think this is covered exactly under the rules, so it would be up to the GM, but this is how I see it playing out:

First the creature playing possum would need to succeed on a bluff check (possibly disguise if it was set up beforehand with fake wounds) to trick his opponent into thinking he was dead. A slight of hand check might also be required if he is armed to keep a grip on his weapon while not letting on that he still holds it.

If all that succeeded and the opponent attempts a coup de grace, I would allow the target to A: not react at all and take the full damage from a coup de grace (possibly after making a fort save or some other check to continue the ruse) or B: take an AOO (that a coup de grace provokes from any threatening opponent) and than proceed to let the opponent convert his attack into a single melee attack with his weapon. Since the coup de grace is a full round action to perform he would not be able to convert it into a full attack, but would proceed with a regular attack.

That is how I see it being the most fair, but there are many different ways I guess it could go depending on the GM.

I would say it works for range or melee weapons. It does not say one or the other, so as long as he is attacking with a weapon, he doubles it's threat range.

One thing to mention if you are looking at the dpr comparisons is that the ranger has an animal companion for a good chunk of his career. I know that isn't archery damage, but I at least would count it for something.

With minimum investment into your companion you can easily see 50-80+ dpr from your companion at level 10, to say nothing of the rest of the benefits (more bodies on the field, riding options, crowd control).

I am not as familiar with all of the classes presented in this thread, so if some of them have that option too it is worth considering.

I believe the answer is yes you do. Threaten is used for many different mechanics, including flanking. If you can make a melee attack into a square, you threaten it. The wording you quoted says nothing about running out of AOO. Something that provides you an AOO always does so, if you can't take advantage of it that is one thing, but it is still provided.

Kris Verschaeve wrote:

Just a last question before I withdraw to my batcave.

Imagine I'm a dwarven ranger. If I cast instant enemy: humanoid (giant) does the dwarven defensive trait trigger ? What about earth child style, what about ascetic style transferring the Wisdom to damage to a "monk" weapon from earth child style? Is this possible with the relevant feat prerequisites or is it deemed in the same boat as a bane weapon?

It's not gear dependent .

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I was gming and this question came up, I would allow all of that to work. I don't see why it wouldn't.

Chess Pwn wrote:

Instant enemy "For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes."

So if you instant enemy a dragon to be a halfling then your bane halfling works since it's treated as a halfling.

Well, that's the idea at least for getting bane with instant enemy.

While I think I agree with you on this, I will say I have seen it ruled both ways in pfs and in home games.

The GM's reasoning for not allowing it was that you treat the enemy as a Halfling, but the Bow is magically enchanted to fight Halflings, and doesn't care what you think or treat the enemy as, it is still a dragon.

There are arguments against that as well, but I think it is ambiguous enough to go either way and there are several threads on these forums going back years with people arguing for or against.

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I haven't seen anything for general play, but specifically for Pathfinder Society it says this on the Additional Resources page

Additional Resources wrote:
Only normal ioun stones have resonance—cracked and flawed ioun stones never do.

If this is for a home game talk to your gm, however I would be inclined to not allow it.

700g (500 for wayfinder 200 for ioun stone) for +1 to will saves and +1 to a charisma based skill is way below average. Especially considering what else you could get.

200g for improved unarmed strike (Cracked Deep Red)

500g for +1 to initiative and +2 to cmb/cmd (Cracked Dusty Rose)

Penumbral Accords is a scenario worth 1 xp

We B4 Goblins is a module but it is a specially short one that is listed as worth only 1 xp

I'm going to agree with Jeraa here, the foreclaws are primary attacks unless listed otherwise.

As to the question about multi-attack, when an animal companion without any secondary attacks gains multi-attack, they instead gain a second attack with a primary natural weapon with the -5 penalty . This has been confirmed by staff on the boards, and is the way the animal companion npcs are built in several places.

Joynt Jezebel wrote:
I am no expert, but isn't Spinosaurus a fine option. It has 3 attacks and a str of 18, that goes to 26[!] at level 7. It is too big for a lot of dungeons however.

Yes, it is a great option, it is sadly no longer legal for PFS though which is what the OP asked for

I think it depends a lot on what class has the animal companion and tactics with it.

T-Rex can be very strong on a Hunter or Sacred Huntmaster. Focus everything on that one big bite attack, add in outflank, pack flanking, paired opportunists, combat reflexes. If the hunter has a high crit range weapon, the AOOs can get crazy with the 10 foot reach. It can also grab reliably with a huge strength, can use skirmisher tricks to trip on an attack. Get a fortuitous AoMF as well for even more AOOs. All this on top of 4 more natural armor than the raptor.

Thomas Hutchins wrote:

So those GMs that wouldn't allow it. Do you allow someone to gain the normal familiar bonuses like the +4 init or +2 to saves if they had another combat pet?

I'm curious because I thought no to begin with. But I think I asked before and had a fair amount of people say they were okay with that, having a familiar grant its bonuses if not the combat pet, so I started considering a build for it.

I will preface this by saying I have never seen it come up, so I also would be open to some discussion on it at the table.

For this question, I would be inclined to let the player get the bonuses, because they get these abilities when within 1 mile of their companion. A mile is a long way, the familiar could be completely removed from combat trailing super far behind, and still give those bonuses to their master. However with the wysp, it needs to be within 30 feet, If it is affecting the combat, but not able to be targeted or dealt with in any way because it is chosen as the "non combat" companion I see that as a problem.

That is my view on the subject, as such I agree with Fromper that I wouldn't try it as a player at all, as a gm, I would be inclined to disallow it.

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I would assume as a player and as a gm, that a non combat pet would not influence the combat in anyway. So no buffs, debuffs, skill checks or any other rolls in combat. The FAQ says

FAQ wrote:

Noncombat animals (ponies, horses, pet dogs, and so on) cannot participate in combat at all.

In my mind, giving a buff is participating, so it would not be able to do that.

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Mark Seifter wrote:
JiCi wrote:

To have asked James Jacobs myself, he answered me this:

"There are some non-evil villains in Villain Codex, but the majority are evil, because that works best for villains in a generic sense."

Indeed. Evil villains are generally excellent villains for evil campaigns as well as for good and neutral campaigns. As just one example, scheming evil PC nobles could have their hands full trying to take control from the equally corrupt (and better connected) evil political establishment.

Is this a subtle jab at the current presidential election in USA? If so, I love it

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Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

a Paladin wearing full plate dragon armor, and not directly engaged in combat, is trying to take 10 to UMD a wand of Infernal Healing

3. Can the Paladin take 10?

I know this is a joke post, but still...

UMD wrote:

You cannot take 10 with this skill.

Axoren wrote:
Axoren wrote:

So far, I've found the following:

Witch's Fortune
Luck Domain
Fate Domain
Education Domain (triggered by natural extrema)

Are there any other reliable sources of Roll Twice, Take Best?

Which of these are feasible for use without a major loss of Action Economy?

Also, is there some way to extend the length of a Domain Power? To more than one round?

Headband of Fortune's Favor Allows luck bonuses and good luck effects to last 1 round longer which is what you were asking for.

Dual-Cursed Oracle has the Misfortune ability.

Misfortune wrote:
Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day.

This can be used to make allies or enemies reroll. They must take the second roll, not the worse roll so use it when allies roll low and enemies roll high/threaten criticals.

Just a heads up, the gold reward for Dance of the Damned looks incorrect. Slow Track is 8,883 and Normal is 27,766. I am not sure which is correct, but one is definitely wrong.

BadBird wrote:

1) Soothsayer/Fortune simply cannot activate until a roll can be affected by it. 'Could have been, if...' isn't enough.
2) A roll cannot be affected by Fortune until a player decides to do so.
3) Therefore, Soothsayer/Fortune cannot activate until a player has made the choice to affect a roll.

The problem I have with this reading of the rule is that the ability Soothsayer clarifies what it means in the parenthesis.

Soothsayer wrote:
When the witch uses the evil eye hex, fortune hex, misfortune hex, or retribution major hex, she can choose to delay the effect. If she does so, the hex takes effect the next time the target makes a roll that could be affected by the hex (such as an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check) or is affected by an action that could be modified by the hex (such as being attacked when the hex would affect the target’s AC), whichever comes first (ignoring actions that are not in combat and actions that have no penalty for failure).

(bolding mine)

The character/player doesn't choose to trigger the ability, needing to make one of those rolls triggers it. If it meant what you want, it would say something like

"The hex takes effect when the target chooses to use it on a roll that could be affected by the hex (such as...)"

That is how I read it at least.

Axoren wrote:
An 18 will only work on a little less than average for creatures of CR 4, though. Later in the game, creatures of higher CR are too resistant to Combat Maneuvers.

Sorry if I was unclear, when I said roll a 15 or an 18 I meant actual roll as in the result on the die, not the final trip check.

For instance, rolling an 18 would give a level 5 wizard with 23 intelligence a 29 to trip (18 +5 caster level +6 casting stat).

Edit: Just from my playstyle, I don't like to use spells where I have to roll for success, which is why I usually only used this when I knew the roll would most likely succeed.

I don't know about competitive play, but it can be a useful tool in a wizard's arsenal. It takes very little investment to have available, 3k gold for a lesser rod of toppling.

I used it on my divination wizard quite often while leveling and even sometimes at high levels. It helped that I had the moment of prescience ability. Knowing you are going to roll a 15 or an 18 makes the trip check much better.

At higher levels it also gets harder because not only do you have to succeed on a trip, but also on a spell resistance check on many enemies.

I agree with Name Violation upthread, You would probably gain the lower level ability of Wings of Heaven, so standard limited use.


I'm not an expert on Kineticists at all, so feel free to poke a hole in this, but Flurry of blasts has this text

Flurry of Blasts wrote:
If you are using a substance infusion that requires a saving throw, a target attempts its save only once (even if it was hit multiple times), but it takes a penalty on the save equal to the number of times it was hit beyond the first.

So multiple rays hitting the same target would give them a penalty on the Fortitude save to negate, but would not have to save multiple times.

I think raw, no. The text from the spell states

Snapdragon Fireworks wrote:
Once per round, as a move action, you may designate a target 5-foot-square within range and launch a pyrotechnic in that direction. The pyrotechnic takes a zigzag path from you to that square, always missing creatures and objects in its path, and detonates in that square with a bang and a colorful burst of fire and light.
and Widen Spell states
Widen Spell wrote:
You can alter a burst, emanation, or spread-shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell's area increase by 100%.

Since the spell does not specify being a burst, emanation or spread, it would not benefit from Widen Spell.

I second what Chris just said, there are a few things you have mentioned you will want to check with your GM.

1. As written, if you pick Thasilonian magic you cannot pick up admixture, which can hinder a blasting build.

2. You mentioned "tattoo dip" I am assuming you are wanting to dip tattooed and crossblooded sorcerer. There are many threads on these boards talking about this. The consensus is that it doesn't work for pfs and probably doesn't work in general, but there is debate there. Talk to you GM to see what he thinks.

3. You mention +3 evocation spells. Thasilonian magic replaces the regular evocation school, so you don't get the +1 from evocation school and than +2 more from thasilonian, it is just +2 from thasilonian. I think this was covered up thread but it may have been missed.

There are a couple classes that grant any teamwork feats they possess to their companion, regardless of prerequisites. That is the easiest way to do it.

Hunter and the Sacred Huntmaster (Inquisitor Archetype) are the two that are most prominent.

Arakasius wrote:
Still not sure how I get Instant Enemy but looking through the combat feats now.

Sorry that is my bad, I mixed up my terms. Not the spell Instant Enemy, the feat Dedicated Adversary. From Dirty Tactics Toolbox


Arakasius wrote:

Jayder: No I hadn't looked at that. It seems an option anyway and losing one level of casting for some flexibility isn't bad.. How does wild child and sacred huntsmaster work together? Would I need to take boon companion?

The animal companion that Wild Child gets stacks with the one the Sacred Huntmaster gets, so you have no loss in animal level. You would not need boon companion.

Are you open to dipping?

If you are, you can dip 1 level of Brawler (Wild Child Archetype).

D10 Hit Die
+1 BAB
+2 Reflex/Fort saves
Martial Flexibility: 4 uses a day, there are so many good things to use this on. Instant enemy is a staple, Blind Fighting if you need it, the list goes on
Brawler's Cunning: This solves your stat problem. You can keep your int at 10 (or dump it lower) while still qualifying for Pack Flanking (which got fixed to be a combat feat).
Improved Unarmed Strike- This isn't super useful, but may come up if you get disarmed or captured.

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Hey Mr. X.

I found the following text from Occult Adventures, I hope it helps

Occult Adventures wrote:

Whenever you gain a level in a favored class, you can
choose which favored class option you take. Unless otherwise
noted, these benefits always stack with themselves.

Many of these alternate class rewards add only 1/2, 1/3,
1/4, or 1/6 to a roll (rather than 1) each time the reward is
selected, or add 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a class ability (such as
adding to a mesmerist’s number of mesmerist tricks per day
or the total number of points in a psychic’s phrenic pool).
When applying such a benefit to a die roll or class ability,
always round down (to a minimum of 0). You may thus need
to select such an option several times before the benefit takes
effect. If an alternate favored class option modifies a class
feature or ability, it can’t be taken before the character has
that class feature or ability. For example, if a class gains a
class feature at 6th level, a character couldn’t take a racial
favored class option that applies to that class feature until
6th level, even if the benefit from that option wouldn’t be
high enough to add a bonus until a later level.
Some options may have a fixed numerical limit,

Yeah, as I mentioned a bunch of posts back, the extra flurry is pretty good. It is at lowest BAB, so not a total waste if you can find something else that fits the build better. But it is fun to be a machine gun. At Monk 8 with a Ki point, and boots of speed you fire 6 arrows.

As for better feats. The beauty here is you don't need any more combat feats, find something fun/flavorful. If you can find 3 feats that you don't need somewhere else, you could go Nature Soul > Animal Ally > Boon Companion. The choice of companion isn't amazing, but it could be a fun quirk. Or look at another feat chain that would be useful.

Doesn't Advanced Weapon Training require fighter level 5? How can you get it when you are fighter level 4. Is there a combo here I am not seeing?

Alex Mack wrote:
Jayder22 wrote:
Alex I do agree with you in theory, but not in practice. In theory, the monk would lose out on the extra attack and the BAB from flurry enough for it to matter. In practice, from what I have seen in pfs, Archers are rarely hindered from full attacking. Zen Archers even more so, since they have great AC, saves, and do not provoke in melee from level 3, they have no reason to move. Most of the time when I have grouped with a zen archer, they had AC rivaling any front liner (mage armor from wand, bark skin, wisdom bonus, dex. easily 24+ with no investment 28 with a ki point). It really is a bit unfair.

Hmm not sure where I was arguing for not making full attacks as an archer... the point of debate is that you cannot use Manyshot and Rapid Shot with Flurry.

So either you take a normal full attack using Rapid Shot and Manyshot or you do a flurry of blows (actually arrows) which gives you bonus attacks and allows you to use Ki to get yet another extra attack.

Yes, I misunderstood where you were coming from, thanks for the clarification. I agree switching to many shot and rapid shot on a zen archer does not seem like a good idea at all.

edit: At early levels, if you don't know what to take with the monk bonus feat, Dodge or Deflect Arrows are fine choices. Although going Zen Archer from the beginning avoids that problem.

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