Shooting Toward a New Horizon

Each bullet will have to be crafted as an item with the desired spell effect, but you will also have quick crafting to make magic bullets that only last until your next daily prep. Attachments to the gun will allow for metamagic: a scope for Reach Spell, a diffuser for Widen Spell, and the like, but they will require the extra action to take effect as usual. Maybe you can only have one such device on your gun at a time, but you can swap them.

MADBOY AND MADGIRL SPARKS AHOY

SCIENCE!

So reading over the Inventor class.... has anyone realized it means you can do RWBY? Because as it stands Inventor legit lets you make a RWBY-styled weapon by level 4.

Personally, I would love to see three class feats for the Inventor:

Show Them, Show Them All! - Create a distraction through a spectacular display of technological splendor that scales with class proficiency.

I Will Thwart You! - Reaction that disrupts clockworks and alchemical creations of your opponents, much like Counterspell (with Tamper as a prerequisite)

Science Has failed Me! - Reaction that allows you to Stride after your invention fails or critically fails.

Also in consideration Creepy Laugh (Free Action demoralize on opponents with a successful action from your inventions) and Gloat (Single Action sustained rant that aids allies and oppresses opposition).

Just random thoughts...

I was hoping we could get some wild west style six-shooters for this. Flintlocks are just plain boring.

The problem is having both six-shooters and flintlocks in the same game. You either balance guns and gunslingers around having to reload after every shot, or you balance them around, well, not doing that. There's a reason there's not much overlap between the use of single-shot handguns and revolvers.

That said, it seems many of the feats seem more suited to revolver-style shooting anyway, where you actually have the capacity to use shots for other things than shooting at the targets you mean to kill.

Pepperboxes would seem like an intermediate step, and it would make sense to classify them as advanced firearms on account of being fairly clumsy. Proper revolvers on the other hand, while advanced technologically, don't seem like they'd warrant being harder to use than a flintlock.

Oh, and I'd specify that even the regular firearms are fairly advanced and use breechloading techniques and pre-made ammunition. Otherwise, Reload 1 makes no sense at all.

Steampunk eh? Well at least they're uncommon.

Baelor the Bard wrote:

Hey, I'm really excited to give these new classes a look, but I'm a blind gamer and this PDF isn't very accessible. It's showing up as an untagged PDF and it's getting pretty jumbled up when my software tries to organize it.

What PDF reader are you using? I'm using Adobe and it comes out pretty clean for my screen reader. QRead might also help with layout issues if you've got it. It has a pretty decent track record with Paizo PDFs in my experience.

I'm using JAWS, as a note, so if you're on NVDA or something else things may be different?

I'm using Adobe and NVDA. I'll give QRead a try. I got it to work alright in Microsoft Edge but I had to tweak some things.

Soluzar wrote:

I was hoping we could get some wild west style six-shooters for this. Flintlocks are just plain boring.

The problem is having both six-shooters and flintlocks in the same game. You either balance guns and gunslingers around having to reload after every shot, or you balance them around, well, not doing that. There's a reason there's not much overlap between the use of single-shot handguns and revolvers.

That said, it seems many of the feats seem more suited to revolver-style shooting anyway, where you actually have the capacity to use shots for other things than shooting at the targets you mean to kill.

Pepperboxes would seem like an intermediate step, and it would make sense to classify them as advanced firearms on account of being fairly clumsy. Proper revolvers on the other hand, while advanced technologically, don't seem like they'd warrant being harder to use than a flintlock.

Oh, and I'd specify that even the regular firearms are fairly advanced and use breechloading techniques and pre-made ammunition. Otherwise, Reload 1 makes no sense at all.

They do specify that ammunition is already prepared as paper cartridges, although I agree that shoving a paper cartridge down the barrel in real life would probably take longer than 1 action. That being said, in first edition it was possible to get it down to a free action and get 5+ shots at someone's touch AC, so given that guns no longer have the touch AC advantage I would honestly be upset if the reload time was longer.

I find the Unstable keyword a really interesting mechanic but unnecessarily underpowered. It is basically spending a feat to gain once per battle action (nobody is going to go for or make DC 17) to get the rough equivalent of a weak focus spell.

With focus spells you can quickly scale up to 2 and 3 focus points. But the Inventor gets no such capability. Focus points are also more easily replenished at 10+ level but the Inventor needs to reach level 14 to get the ability to use Unstable twice before a 10 minute rest.

Or am I missing something. Fingers crossed that the DC 17 is a typo.

I find the Unstable keyword a really interesting mechanic but unnecessarily underpowered. It is basically spending a feat to gain once per battle action (nobody is going to go for or make DC 17) to get the rough equivalent of a weak focus spell.

With focus spells you can quickly scale up to 2 and 3 focus points. But the Inventor gets no such capability. Focus points are also more easily replenished at 10+ level but the Inventor needs to reach level 14 to get the ability to use Unstable twice before a 10 minute rest.

Or am I missing something. Fingers crossed that the DC 17 is a typo.

Well the way I see it that inventor is more of martial than "okay you can three times per battle shoot huge laser beam", so unstable options more of give them fun options and DC 17 is for "ah you desperately actually need to do it again or want gambling"

Dual Weapon Reload needs to be available to the Gunslinger at first level. It's completely necessary for half of the concepts this class is supposed to support to function. If it isn't something you can start with you can't play that concept unless you're starting at a higher level.

The Dual Weapon Reload feat makes absolutely no sense. What are you using to do the reload, your teeth?

Even with speed loaders or semi-automatics (neither of which are, afaik, available on Golarion) it takes both hands to reload a weapon. If you're dual wielding, you have to re-holster or drop on a weapon cord one of them while you're reloading the other. Heavy crossbows are worse.

I suppose a mage could use something similar to Mage Hand to reload. :-)

Or maybe Dual Weapon Warriors have some form of telekinesis just for reloading.

I really like these classes and got really excited for the Drifter. That is until I started building one and realized that the Drifter is near unplayable until level 6. The whole concept is to fight with a melee and firearm simultaneously, however I can't reload while dual wielding until level 6!

Is the intension for this class to only shoot somebody once per battle? Or are they envisioned to be the comic relief by constantly dropping their sword to reload their pistol and then picking their sword back up?

Seems we need something built into the class that allows for a sheath-reload-draw as a single action. This would make sense to sheath the sword, quickly reload the weapon, and redraw your sword in a single fluid action.

"Armpit Tuck" You can tuck a weapon into your armpit and retrieve it as a free action.

Given that the current solution is apparently "you have to buy a dozen copies of your weapon for it to be usable during the course of a fight" I'm willing to give up a little realism. Right now the only Gunslinger build that functions at all is the sniper.

Good news, by the way! We'll be talking about the history and development of firearms in Golarion and how it diverges from the real world in the final release for Guns & Gears!

Now that will be interesting!

Just watched a video in which they demonstrated reloading a cap and ball revolver. Seems to me if you had to do that in the middle of a firefight, the fight would be over before you got it done. :-)

Gunslinger's way: pick one of the three.

"Said I preferred a rifle. Didn't say I don't know how to use a hand gun." -- Matthew Quigley

Good to have some free gunslinger and inventor stuff for PF2e out there. ;)

I don't think Drifter is unplayable at all. Until sixth level your pistol is for an opening volley. I'd prefer it if they could grab reloading strike at level 4 especially since the functionally similar Duel Weapon Reload from the archetype is available at that level, but honestly you're doing more damage with your melee weapon than a pistol in any case, with the exception of crits. The feats at lower levels are perfectly suitable to play this way. That's assuming you have the funds to buy a melee weapon and a pistol at first level, which could be a stretch.
I do agree that Pistolero isn't viable without a Duel Weapon Reload option because of its Greater Deed. In addition to adding a Duel Weapon Reload option I think the Pistolero should have a greater deed that doesn't involve using two weapons and Finish the Job should be a feat option for Pistoleros that want to use two pistols. Honestly it's playable with a single pistol until level 15.

As someone whose homebrew setting relies on guns, this is very exciting for me. That said, I'm quite sad to lose Lirianne even if the new gunslinger looks really cool.

Gunslinger is very niche for me. I'd probably play/allow one in Skull & Shackles. Possibly Serpent's Skull.
I'll have to take a closer look at this inventor.
Like some others, I also agree some of this stuff from inventor might be fun for a Numeria game like Iron Gods.
I don't mind the technology when it is kept to its certain area. But go too much with it and I might as well play Starfinder.
Luckily they made them Uncommon.

I don't think Drifter is unplayable at all. Until sixth level your pistol is for an opening volley. I'd prefer it if they could grab reloading strike at level 4 especially since the functionally similar Duel Weapon Reload from the archetype is available at that level, but honestly you're doing more damage with your melee weapon than a pistol in any case, with the exception of crits. The feats at lower levels are perfectly suitable to play this way. That's assuming you have the funds to buy a melee weapon and a pistol at first level, which could be a stretch.

I do agree that Pistolero isn't viable without a Duel Weapon Reload option because of its Greater Deed. In addition to adding a Duel Weapon Reload option I think the Pistolero should have a greater deed that doesn't involve using two weapons and Finish the Job should be a feat option for Pistoleros that want to use two pistols. Honestly it's playable with a single pistol until level 15.

I honestly think it would be better if Drifter was fully reworked to be an "opening volley" spec, because right now that is... not what it is. Frankly as much as I like the idea of using a melee weapon in addition to your gun, the Drifter is pretty terrible at doing it. Remember that you have an innate -2 to your melee attacks; normal martial proficiency without normal martial bonuses.

I'd propose Drifter be reworked to a "marking" system where if you hit an enemy with your gun you get bonuses against them with your melee weapon for the rest of the fight. This would also give us a spec that has genuine synergy with scatter weapons, which we're missing right now.

As a random side note, for those who are against the inclusion of guns within their games or homebrew settings, here are but a few alternative names one could us for crossbow touting Gunslingers:

Crossbowman/woman
Crossbower
Marksman/woman

OR, my personal favorite, Arbalist, which will be what I use when describing the class as a crossbow wielding expert.

Crossbowperson

Baelor the Bard wrote:

I don't think Drifter is unplayable at all. Until sixth level your pistol is for an opening volley. I'd prefer it if they could grab reloading strike at level 4 especially since the functionally similar Duel Weapon Reload from the archetype is available at that level, but honestly you're doing more damage with your melee weapon than a pistol in any case, with the exception of crits. The feats at lower levels are perfectly suitable to play this way. That's assuming you have the funds to buy a melee weapon and a pistol at first level, which could be a stretch.

I do agree that Pistolero isn't viable without a Duel Weapon Reload option because of its Greater Deed. In addition to adding a Duel Weapon Reload option I think the Pistolero should have a greater deed that doesn't involve using two weapons and Finish the Job should be a feat option for Pistoleros that want to use two pistols. Honestly it's playable with a single pistol until level 15.

I honestly think it would be better if Drifter was fully reworked to be an "opening volley" spec, because right now that is... not what it is. Frankly as much as I like the idea of using a melee weapon in addition to your gun, the Drifter is pretty terrible at doing it. Remember that you have an innate -2 to your melee attacks; normal martial proficiency without normal martial bonuses.

I'd propose Drifter be reworked to a "marking" system where if you hit an enemy with your gun you get bonuses against them with your melee weapon for the rest of the fight. This would also give us a spec that has genuine synergy with scatter weapons, which we're missing right now.

The first level feat Sword and Pistol makes your oponent flatfooted to your melee attack when you hit with the gun. At low levels you do it as an opening volley and at that point in the game you're going to do fine with the lower proficiency of your melee attack. Once you grab reloading strike the basic move becomes shoot, slash, reload. If you use an agile melee weapon being flatfooted will balance out the lower proficiency.

The gunslinger/drifter + inventor is perfect for making a Yharnam Hunter. Gunslinger for obvious reasons and inventor for the trick weapons. Fear the old blood, everyone.

The first level feat Sword and Pistol makes your oponent flatfooted to your melee attack when you hit with the gun. At low levels you do it as an opening volley and at that point in the game you're going to do fine with the lower proficiency of your melee attack. Once you grab reloading strike the basic move becomes shoot, slash, reload. If you use an agile melee weapon being flatfooted will balance out the lower proficiency.

Sword and Pistol only works if you're shooting your gun in melee. It's designed as a rotational thing that you do when you're already "stuck in". For the opening volley thing to work Drifter would have to be designed where you use your gun on the first round and your melee weapon for the rest of the fight, not flipping back and forth.

I'm quite sad to lose Lirianne even if the new gunslinger looks really cool.

Has Paizo said that if they appoint a new iconic for a class the old one is no longer available? I must have missed it. Although, come to think of it, I don't know how easily certain PF1 class iconics (gunslinger, alchemist, magus, summoner for starters) can be ported to PF2.

Troodos wrote:

I'm quite sad to lose Lirianne even if the new gunslinger looks really cool.

Has Paizo said that if they appoint a new iconic for a class the old one is no longer available? I must have missed it. Although, come to think of it, I don't know how easily certain PF1 class iconics (gunslinger, alchemist, magus, summoner for starters) can be ported to PF2.

I'm just referring to seeing her in artwork.

Ah. Yeah, I suppose they'd say "no more of the old one, too confusing". Shame that. :-)

Troodos wrote:

I'm quite sad to lose Lirianne even if the new gunslinger looks really cool.

Has Paizo said that if they appoint a new iconic for a class the old one is no longer available? I must have missed it. Although, come to think of it, I don't know how easily certain PF1 class iconics (gunslinger, alchemist, magus, summoner for starters) can be ported to PF2.

The old fire oracle iconic is used as an example of a "fire-based" oracle build in the class pages in APG. They said the iconics are not "dead", and they might get cameos. They just won't be used as stand-ins for players in most pictures like before. They might still appear in comics and games.

Ah. Yeah, I suppose they'd say "no more of the old one, too confusing". Shame that. :-)

Like the primary role of the iconics is "so you have a picture of somebody to accompany the class writeup" and "so you have a group of people you can depict in art in various situations to stand in for PCs."

So we already have the weird issue of "iconics simultaneously exist at all 20 levels" since we have like, level 20 Merisiel on page 50 of book 6 of Age of Ashes, but the next time she's in an AP she'll be back to level 1 again.

As someone whose homebrew setting relies on guns, this is very exciting for me. That said, I'm quite sad to lose Lirianne even if the new gunslinger looks really cool.

Considering that Dwarves who live in the Mana Wastes were the ones who invented black powder weapon in the Inner Sea Region, I like the idea that the new gunslinger iconic is a Dwarf.

Troodos wrote:

As someone whose homebrew setting relies on guns, this is very exciting for me. That said, I'm quite sad to lose Lirianne even if the new gunslinger looks really cool.

Considering that Dwarves who live in the Mana Wastes were the ones who invented black powder weapon in the Inner Sea Region, I like the idea that the new gunslinger iconic is a Dwarf.

Oh, yeah, she looks really cool and it's a good idea to have a dongun dwarf. But I'm still attached to the old character

Baelor the Bard wrote:

The first level feat Sword and Pistol makes your oponent flatfooted to your melee attack when you hit with the gun. At low levels you do it as an opening volley and at that point in the game you're going to do fine with the lower proficiency of your melee attack. Once you grab reloading strike the basic move becomes shoot, slash, reload. If you use an agile melee weapon being flatfooted will balance out the lower proficiency.

Sword and Pistol only works if you're shooting your gun in melee. It's designed as a rotational thing that you do when you're already "stuck in". For the opening volley thing to work Drifter would have to be designed where you use your gun on the first round and your melee weapon for the rest of the fight, not flipping back and forth.

Ahh I see where you're going. Well I don't think there will be an opening volley effect that lasts longer than a round, and I think we're much more likely to see firearm proficiency reduced instead of proficiency with other weapons increased. You could easily get off an opening shot and then use that Pistol Twirling feat to keep them flatfooted by feinting. Honestly shooting in melee is usually fine in second edition Pathfinder so I still think it works.

Troodos wrote:

As someone whose homebrew setting relies on guns, this is very exciting for me. That said, I'm quite sad to lose Lirianne even if the new gunslinger looks really cool.

Considering that Dwarves who live in the Mana Wastes were the ones who invented black powder weapon in the Inner Sea Region, I like the idea that the new gunslinger iconic is a Dwarf.

It makes sense on a number of levels. Lirianne is from Alkenstar, so her replacement should have at least as strong a connection to guns. Also, given that Shardra is no longer the iconic oracle, I'm glad that they were quick to use another Dwarven woman as an iconic. (Hopefully at least one of the new iconics will be trans as well!)

given that Shardra is no longer the iconic oracle

Shardra was the iconic Shaman, and whether or not she still happens to be such will be determined if/when we get a Shaman class for PF2.

Alahazra was the iconic oracle in PF1, replaced by Korakai in PF2.

Evan Tarlton wrote:

given that Shardra is no longer the iconic oracle

Shardra was the iconic Shaman, and whether or not she still happens to be such will be determined if/when we get a Shaman class for PF2.

Alahazra was the iconic oracle in PF1, replaced by Korakai in PF2.

...GAK! ...never mind, forget I said anything. It's been a day.

(My comment about more trans iconics stands, though)

Well the way I see it that inventor is more of martial than "okay you can three times per battle shoot huge laser beam", so unstable options more of give them fun options and DC 17 is for "ah you desperately actually need to do it again or want gambling"

I see your point, but Champion is a Martial, with the highest armor proficiency progression to boot. Champion still easily gets 3 focus points. Basically, the more focus Feats you get the more you build up your capacity. With Unstable you peak at 1 making taking more than one Unstable feat undesirable. Which is a pity because all of them are super cool.

I think a good change to Unstable might be to keep it as is, but make the first attempt a Craft check (instead of a freebie) with the DC being the standard check DC for that character's level, then make the second check at the Very Hard DC+5 difficulty (instead of DC 17 flat check), and then make the third attempt at an incredibly difficult DC+10 to that original DC number, with a fourth attempt being impossible, capping it so that it cannot be used more than 3 times in any given scenario.

Having the Inventor have to do maintenance in the heat of combat is very appropriate for the class, and gives you something to do with Craft. I like it.

Michael Sayre wrote:

Good news, by the way! We'll be talking about the history and development of firearms in Golarion and how it diverges from the real world in the final release for Guns & Gears!

Now that will be interesting!

Just watched a video in which they demonstrated reloading a cap and ball revolver. Seems to me if you had to do that in the middle of a firefight, the fight would be over before you got it done. :-)

FYI - a well trained musketman can reload and fire a Brown Bess musket in 20 seconds. 8 action reload 1 action strike?

Pistols can be reloaded faster. I'm sure a blunderbuss can be reloaded pretty quickly too.

If rifled barrels are introduced as advanced firearms, that takes longer too.

Having the Inventor have to do maintenance in the heat of combat is very appropriate for the class, and gives you something to do with Craft. I like it.

I also like that it makes it so that it is never completely a reliable, sure-fire ability, and yet, if your skilled enough and lucky enough you MIGHT be able to use abilities with the Unstable trait as often as up to three times per combat. OR, despite all your vaunted skill, you might just fail and never use it even once in a particular combat just because the Unstable and erratic Invention you are always tinkering with decided to just be uncooperative today due to some unknown factor... Well, back to the drawing board! I love the flavor of that; it can make failure fun when it comes to roleplaying stuff like that.

As a note, and I've got no idea how "canon" this is, when I look at the picture in the blog post with my screen reader, it's caption says, "A human gunslinger and a dwarven inventor run from brass construct guards."

So the new iconic for gunslingers may not be dwarven after all.

As a note, and I've got no idea how "canon" this is, when I look at the picture in the blog post with my screen reader, it's caption says, "A human gunslinger and a dwarven inventor run from brass construct guards."

So the new iconic for gunslingers may not be dwarven after all.

The lineart for the iconic in the playtest pdf looks pretty dwarven to me.

The Wayne Reynolds sketch in the PDF is the iconic, the above is just art.

As a note, and I've got no idea how "canon" this is, when I look at the picture in the blog post with my screen reader, it's caption says, "A human gunslinger and a dwarven inventor run from brass construct guards."

So the new iconic for gunslingers may not be dwarven after all.

In every playtest so far, the Wayne Reynolds art in the playtest PDF has always been the new iconic art for the class being playtested. It has been that way ever since the 1st edition of the game, if I recall correctly; it certainly has been for entirety of the second edition. Furthermore, Paizo has been on record saying that they always get Wayne Reynolds to do the initial concept art every time they create a new iconic. So, I believe the art for the gunslinger and the inventor in the playtest PDF is the early draft of the final art that will be in the final print of Guns & Gears for those classes. The art in the blog post here is not the art for the new iconics.

In every playtest so far, the Wayne Reynolds art in the playtest PDF has always been the new iconic art for the class being playtested. It has been that way ever since the 1st edition of the game, if I recall correctly; it certainly has been for entirety of the second edition. Furthermore, Paizo has been on record saying that they always get Wayne Reynolds to do the initial concept art every time they create a new iconic. So, I believe the art for the gunslinger and the inventor in the playtest PDF is the early draft of the final art that will be in the final print of Guns & Gears for those classes. The art in the blog post here is not the art for the new iconics.

Correct! The dwarven lady with the cannon on her shoulder and the half-orc man with the prosthetic arm and trusty gobbot are the new iconics.

As a note, and I've got no idea how "canon" this is

Cannon seems more apropos when referencing these classes. ;)

So how do folks thing Gun Mages will be implemented? As an archetype? A wizard arcane thesis? A witch patron?

I think they would just use the Shooting Star Magus synthesis.

Ventnor wrote:

So how do folks thing Gun Mages will be implemented? As an archetype? A wizard arcane thesis? A witch patron?

I think they would just use the Shooting Star Magus synthesis.

Actually, a Magus Synthesis that lets them more easily reload while spellcasting could be another viable way to implement the gunmage concept.