Shooting Toward a New Horizon

I am, however, happy to see "strategically placed exploding red barrels" become a part of Pathfinder.

I haven't read the whole thing. Where are these? One of my players might be interested....

I can't wait for the Automaton Ancestry in the Guns & Gears book to go along with the Inventor class. Then, I can play an automaton and its twin as a companion. :)

I have to say, as somebody who had actively hoped it WOULDN'T be gunslinger because I was worried it would be plain and boring as a class, this looks incredible.

But really, my eyes are on inventor. The inventor alone looks like its going to have more build options than half of the classes combined.

Yeah... this is a grand slam for me. It feels like the next step in class design for PF2e

YES YES YES YES!!!!

*Does Minion Dance*

TiwazBlackhand wrote:

First note: Gunslinger Weapon Mastery at level 5 gives crit specialty effects for firearms but not crossbows. This is probably an oversight?

Yeah, it should be for both.

Can we PLEASE have a locked thread in the playtest forum where these statements can be linked or (even better) reposted?

So much gets lots in the comments and the forum search function is decidedly dysfunctional when trying to find them again.

So we're getting John Wick and Tony Stark. Nice.

Michael Sayre wrote:

TiwazBlackhand wrote:

First note: Gunslinger Weapon Mastery at level 5 gives crit specialty effects for firearms but not crossbows. This is probably an oversight?

Yeah, it should be for both.

Can we PLEASE have a locked thread in the playtest forum where these statements can be linked or (even better) reposted?

So much gets lots in the comments and the forum search function is decidedly dysfunctional when trying to find them again.

I don't know what you are asking, but I have referred your request internally. Thanks.

Can we PLEASE have a locked thread in the playtest forum where these statements can be linked or (even better) reposted?

I'm contacting the designers to see how they would like to handle clarifications.

So we're getting John Wick and Tony Stark. Nice.

This is so banal yet so true.

CrystalSeas wrote:

Can we PLEASE have a locked thread in the playtest forum where these statements can be linked or (even better) reposted?

I'm contacting the designers to see how they would like to handle clarifications.

I'll be working this out with Michael Sayre this afternoon when we are both out of meetings.

My first impression of the Gunslinger is that I'd be really happy with it if it wasn't completely unplayable.

Like... the Drifter and Pistolero are both designed with the intent of dual-wielding right out the gate. I love the Sword and Pistol feat. But only Drifters get the ability to reload with two full hands, and only at 6th level. Before then... what, do you only get to shoot your gun once per fight? And what are dual pistol slingers supposed to do?

And what are dual pistol slingers supposed to do?

The Dual-Weapon Warrior archetype has "Dual Weapon Reload" as a feat 4, so this should probably be something available to the Gunslinger lest we push everyone to take that archetype.

How do you reload a crossbow, if its uses 2 hands..? You just do it...

Arachnofiend wrote:

And what are dual pistol slingers supposed to do?

The Dual-Weapon Warrior archetype has "Dual Weapon Reload" as a feat 4, so this should probably be something available to the Gunslinger lest we push everyone to take that archetype.

I concur. This should be a feat available as a Gunslinger class feat of the same level. I suspect it was probably left on the cutting room floor as a feat they already knew works well and would be a part of the Gunslinger, but had an unfortunate oversight when writing the class for the playtest document.

How do you reload a crossbow, if its uses 2 hands..? You just do it...

The CRB points out that while a Crossbow requires 2 hands to wield, it requires only one hand to grip, and the text for "Reload" (page 279 in the CRB) says "Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon."

The problem is when you're wielding two pistols or two hand crossbows. It takes >0 hands to hold onto your weapon, and an action to pick it up if you drop it. Now you can certainly just handwave "a gunslinger can just do it" but it's probably worth addressing.

Dual Weapon Reload needs to be available to the Gunslinger at first level. It's completely necessary for half of the concepts this class is supposed to support to function. If it isn't something you can start with you can't play that concept unless you're starting at a higher level.

2 pistols at level 1 is really expensive, particularly since ammunition isn't free and you will want some armor.

I love the Inventor iconic. *Looks* like a half-orc. His Construct-gob minion is adawable.

Really hoping after the playtest we can get an Inventor Weapon capability for ranged weapons, including gunnes.

Oh man these classes look amazing! Especially the inventor! I'm so pleasantly surprised! I thought it would end up being like the DND artificer but its completely unique. I can see so many cool character designs with it already!

Also with this book and the talk of Arcadian gun-mages, I can't help but hope some more Arcadia goodness is on the horizon!

Great job Paizo, as usual!

2 pistols at level 1 is really expensive, particularly since ammunition isn't free and you will want some armor.

The Pistolero is just as capable of running gun+melee weapon as the Drifter; SaP Pistolero is the build I was most interested in before I realized I would never be able to reload my gun.

Well just looked over the playtest and noticed something weird in the firearm section. muskets are listed as cheaper, weaker, lighter and with shorter range than an arquebus, not to mention being a simple weapon vs a martial weapon respectively. Yet irl muskets are longer & heavier than an arquebus, as well as having longer range and firing a larger lead shot with better penetration(the weapon traits feel like they could be switched to reflect this too). This is why the musket became the standard while the arquebus fell out of use.

Seems like a bit of a mix up

CrystalSeas wrote:

Can we PLEASE have a locked thread in the playtest forum where these statements can be linked or (even better) reposted?

So much gets lots in the comments and the forum search function is decidedly dysfunctional when trying to find them again.

I don't know what you are asking, but I have referred your request internally. Thanks.

Correcting the typo would probably help readability:

"So much gets lots lost in the comments"

Michael Sayre wrote:

TiwazBlackhand wrote:

First note: Gunslinger Weapon Mastery at level 5 gives crit specialty effects for firearms but not crossbows. This is probably an oversight?

Yeah, it should be for both.

Can we PLEASE have a locked thread in the playtest forum where these statements can be linked or (even better) reposted?

So much gets lots in the comments and the forum search function is decidedly dysfunctional when trying to find them again.

Thread created!

We'll be updating that first post with tweaks and clarifications as they come up.

The new iconic's gun redefines the expression "hand cannon."

I like it! :)

The inventor seems heavily inspired by a third party first edition class called the "machinesmith" that a player once played in my Iron Gods campaign, or it's possible this is a case of parallel development, but the similarity is uncanny. Anyway, I liked the machinesmith and I think I'll like this inventor!

Edit: the third party in question was Louis Porter jr. Productions.

I'm gonna dig gunblades.

I know the playtest has quick-and-dirty doubling ring rules for ranged/melee mix, but can the final product have like a "doubling brace" so I can spread the same enchantment over like six pistols, that I can fire and drop a la Blackbeard?

Well, well, well.

The Inventor will let me do the original concept I had for one of my 1E Alchemists that never quite panned out.

I will offer a cursory note, however, that the playtest list of Inventor class feats offers armor builds more options than the others.

Additionally, on a conceptual level, I really want a way to make a zipline gun/crossbow, and the feats as listed don't really cover that...

Well just looked over the playtest and noticed something weird in the firearm section. muskets are listed as cheaper, weaker, lighter and with shorter range than an arquebus, not to mention being a simple weapon vs a martial weapon respectively. Yet irl muskets are longer & heavier than an arquebus, as well as having longer range and firing a larger lead shot with better penetration(the weapon traits feel like they could be switched to reflect this too). This is why the musket became the standard while the arquebus fell out of use.

Seems like a bit of a mix up

Furthermore the description for arquebus given in the playtest says "...the long barrel makes the weapons particularly unsteady unless a tripod or other stand is used to stabilize it". A description far more accurate for the "musket", which in the days of the arquebus was the designation for a firearm larger than an arquebus or caliver. In fact next to the size of the firearm, the necessity of a "fork rest"(the tripod in this example) to brace it is what differentiates a musket from a contemporary arquebus.

(the arquebus is also described as a "long rifle" despite predating and falling out of use before the invention of rifling but thats a different - and I would say semantic - complaint)

I know the playtest has quick-and-dirty doubling ring rules for ranged/melee mix, but can the final product have like a "doubling brace" so I can spread the same enchantment over like six pistols, that I can fire and drop a la Blackbeard?

I have added this to my playtest notes, but mention it when you take the survey as well!

I know the playtest has quick-and-dirty doubling ring rules for ranged/melee mix, but can the final product have like a "doubling brace" so I can spread the same enchantment over like six pistols, that I can fire and drop a la Blackbeard?

This isn't connected at all to the playtest so it's kind off topic, but I'd really love something like this for throwing weapons too.

I mean, returning runes exist but there's something that feels weird about throwing a shuriken or knife and having it teleport back to your hand so you can throw it again as opposed to having like, an enchanted bandolier or belt pouch that conferred its magic to a whole bunch of otherwise mundane weapons you could go throwing around.

Furthermore the description for arquebus given in the playtest says "...the long barrel makes the weapons particularly unsteady unless a tripod or other stand is used to stabilize it". A description far more accurate for the "musket", which in the days of the arquebus was the designation for a firearm larger than an arquebus or caliver. In fact next to the size of the firearm, the necessity of a "fork rest"(the tripod in this example) to brace it is what differentiates a musket from a contemporary arquebus.

(the arquebus is also described as a "long rifle" despite predating and falling out of use before the invention of rifling but thats a different - and I would say semantic - complaint)

Muskets stayed in use far longer than the arquebus and were originally just a heavier arquebus. The definition of a musket changed over time, while the arquebus did not, however, and round about the time that matchlocks became standard, any long gun with a flintlock was commonly referred to as a musket.

The name arquebus actually comes from the word haakbus, referring to a variety of gun that had a stabilizing hook along the bottom. Since the arquebus is the gun literally named after needing a stabilizing element, I decided it made the most sense as the long gun to apply the sniper and unsteady traits while the musket can be seen as the more common type of smooth bore long gun typically produced in the foundries of Dongun Hold for the humans and other residents of Alkenstar.

Good news, by the way! We'll be talking about the history and development of firearms in Golarion and how it diverges from the real world in the final release for Guns & Gears!

So I'm wondering if firearms with multiple barrels are planned for this book, such as the Pepperbox or the Double-Barreled Pistol from 1E? They seem doable if you add something like a Capacity trait with a value, such as Capacity 6 for a pepperbox. Reloading actions might get weird though. Still, I'd be interested to see if these make their way to 2E.

OH YES THANKS YOU FOR THE NEW CLASSES AND ROCK AND ROLL BABY HI HI HI.

Hmm. Having a look at the document, thematically I don't think they should have been classes on their own. I don't see a whole lot here that couldn't have been accomplished with an archetype or extensive feat paths for Fighter/Swashbucker and Alchemist.

Agreed...but it's been pretty clear since the get-go that a smaller set of flexible classes fine-tuned by archetypes wasn't the direction they were taking 2E.

Additionally, on a conceptual level, I really want a way to make a zipline gun/crossbow, and the feats as listed don't really cover that...

Possibly, only possibly because a lot can happen between now and then, but possibly because it's already an item option being busily crafted by freelancer worker bees for the final book, which will be packed to the brim with cool gadgets and devices of all stripes that you don't need to be an inventor to use :)

I have a player in my current game who always, and I mean ALWAYS, buys a grappling gun if it's an option. Their current character is a Rogue with lots of crafting, engineering, and tinkering vibes.

When they first made their character they neglected to buy starting equipment, so I did it for them. I bought them a grappling hook, but specifically declined to also give rope.

To see the look on their face when they saw grappling hook in their inventory, only to immediately be crushed by its uselessness.

A grappling gun might be a worthwhile gift to make up for the prank. Also, transferring them over to Inventor!

Really like Overclock.

Especially that it works for Armor, Weapons, and Companion, so elegantly.

Also that Firearms come in multiple proficiencies.

Will take other thoughts to appropriate threads now!...

wactac wrote:

Furthermore the description for arquebus given in the playtest says "...the long barrel makes the weapons particularly unsteady unless a tripod or other stand is used to stabilize it". A description far more accurate for the "musket", which in the days of the arquebus was the designation for a firearm larger than an arquebus or caliver. In fact next to the size of the firearm, the necessity of a "fork rest"(the tripod in this example) to brace it is what differentiates a musket from a contemporary arquebus.

(the arquebus is also described as a "long rifle" despite predating and falling out of use before the invention of rifling but thats a different - and I would say semantic - complaint)

Muskets stayed in use far longer than the arquebus and were originally just a heavier arquebus. The definition of a musket changed over time, while the arquebus did not, however, and round about the time that matchlocks became standard, any long gun with a flintlock was commonly referred to as a musket.

The name arquebus actually comes from the word haakbus, referring to a variety of gun that had a stabilizing hook along the bottom. Since the arquebus is the gun literally named after needing a stabilizing element, I decided it made the most sense as the long gun to apply the sniper and unsteady traits while the musket can be seen as the more common type of smooth bore long gun typically produced in the foundries of Dongun Hold for the humans and other residents of Alkenstar.

Good news, by the way! We'll be talking about the history and development of firearms in Golarion and how it diverges from the real world in the final release for Guns & Gears!

ah, that's fair I was looking at them as contemporary firearms developed side-by-side instead of guns at different levels of tech progression. your statement about the the "haakbus" (hook gun) helps to clarify what you were going with your descriptions. I am also stoked to hear you'll be giving some development history for in setting firearms, as if I already couldn't wait for this book to come out!

Also upon review I feel like my previous posts may have been a little condescending/whiny. With how frequently firearms in fantasy are misunderstood, misrepresented or just plain abused like a red-headed stepchild (if you'll excuse a very dated idiom), I can get a little HEATED about the subject and it's execution. Sorry if it felt a little "know-it-all fan goes REEE over tiny details", I may have gotten a little over zealous.

Hey, I'm really excited to give these new classes a look, but I'm a blind gamer and this PDF isn't very accessible. It's showing up as an untagged PDF and it's getting pretty jumbled up when my software tries to organize it.

What PDF reader are you using? I'm using Adobe and it comes out pretty clean for my screen reader. QRead might also help with layout issues if you've got it. It has a pretty decent track record with Paizo PDFs in my experience.

I'm using JAWS, as a note, so if you're on NVDA or something else things may be different?

I love the Inventor iconic. *Looks* like a half-orc. His Construct-gob minion is adawable.

Really hoping after the playtest we can get an Inventor Weapon capability for ranged weapons, including gunnes.

[Emphasis mine for greater embarrassment] Oops. Reading comprehension fail. Ranged weapons and ammunition specifically mentioned somewhere in there. D’oh.

"Bonus points for those of you who might not be as enthused about having firearms in your home games: we’re playtesting the gunslinger with built-in options for replacing firearms with crossbows. ... And no, playing a character with this option won’t require a feat or archetype!"

Finally the gunslinger class made usable, and with sense. Thank you so much.

Good news, by the way! We'll be talking about the history and development of firearms in Golarion and how it diverges from the real world in the final release for Guns & Gears!

Now this will be a good read indeed. Please include this idea.

They did it, steampunk...!

I was hoping we could get some wild west style six-shooters for this. Flintlocks are just plain boring.

Something tells me those may be coming. Advanced firearms are just not in this playtest.

I was hoping we could get some wild west style six-shooters for this. Flintlocks are just plain boring.

The Inventor's left arm is a replacement clockwork arm. Nice!

Yeah, there's no advanced crossbows either. The daikyu is still the only advanced ranged weapon, and a weird one at that.

Something tells me those may be coming. Advanced firearms are just not in this playtest.

Soluzar wrote:

I was hoping we could get some wild west style six-shooters for this. Flintlocks are just plain boring.

Man, that'd be the choice. Revolvers having six shots per gun...but the -2 to hit for being Master at Advanced Firearms vs Legendary at Simple/Martial Firearms.

The tough choice.

So how do folks thing Gun Mages will be implemented? As an archetype? A wizard arcane thesis? A witch patron?