Welcome to the Gunslinger Class Playtest!


Gunslinger Class

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Paizo Employee Designer

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Hi everyone!

Apologies for this thread coming in a bit late, it's been a hectic morning! As we go into this playtest, I'm going to reiterate a request Mark made in the inventor thread:
"We've never really had two back-to-back books with playtests like this before and a lot is happening right now because of it. As a result, I need your help now more than ever to make sure I can keep up with all the great feedback you have. While the swashbuckler playtest I was able to read every post and follow every discussion here and even in some other places, for the summoner that wasn't the case. It was filled with gems of incredible feedback but buried in a few repetitive discussion topics. So I'd like to ask that we try to focus, like the inventor class itself, on new playtest experiences, analyses, reactions, and ideas, rather than get too distracted in lengthy debates with other playtesters or re-iterating a point we've already made in other threads. It can be very tempting to do so, but I guarantee you that I read and thoroughly digest playtest results and new analyses (if I can find them amidst the other posts) while I skip repeat posts, so if your intended audience is the designers, repeating your message is not helping your case. It might particularly seem challenging when a new playtester makes a point again that you've already seen before, perhaps in a new thread, to come back into that thread to reiterate your own opinion, and perhaps instead of doing so (in either support or disagreement), we can post a reply thanking the playtester and linking to the prior discussion in case they want to see some support or counterpoints there.

To help me find things, I'm also going to create a new thread for links to new playtest posts or analyses. If you see one, drop a link in that thread. I will be moderating out any post to that thread other than such links, so it can be a nice place for us all to check together to find something new."

This is also the place for special announcements to look out for, so watch this space. You can find the playtest assets and survey links here.

Looking forward to the next month as everyone gets to explore this new class and its accompanying mechanics together! Let's all have fun, respect each other's thoughts and opinions, and dig into playtesting this next round of options!

1) First update/clarification! Gunslinger Weapon Mastery should also grant access to the critical specialization effects of crossbows, not just firearms.

2) Sword and Pistol should say "melee weapon or unarmed attack" in the third sentence.

3) The benefits from Firearm Ace should last until the end of your next turn.

4) The Deception or Intimidation check made as part of Pistolero's Challenge is made against the target's Will DC

5) When maintaining your firearms to avoid misfire chances from having used them the previous day, you can clean and maintain multiple firearms during the one hour period (so a pistolero could maintain a pair of dueling pistols, a drifter could maintain a brace of hand cannons, etc.)


Michael some questions and early observations:

1. I am attempting to build John Wick, which seems to work either with Pistolero or Drifter. Sword and Pistol caught my eye, but there is ONE part of the feat that specifically says "weapon" and not simply "melee attack" (the part that triggers for the next strike). Is that intended? I ask because if it isn't it changes my path decision and my level 1 feat choice (this character will be for a level 1 game)

2. Should Trickshot, Blast Lock, and Black Powder Boost allow Crossbows? I guess the implication for Black Powder Boost (outside the name itself) is the momentum of the firearm propels you, but just wanted to get clarfication on the first two especially since they don't seem like they should be off-limits for Crossbows (I'd argue outside the use of "Blast" Lock, that Heavy Crossbows might be able to "pick" it better, then again, arrows too). I guess the explosive barrel is harder to imagine for Crossbow on Trickshot, but it's already subject to GM interpretation so I could see it.

I'm going to be the one testing this one as a GM PC in the game this weekend! Will report in hopefully soon after :) (in the appropriate thread of course)


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I need to know if the Pistolero really needs 2 rounds, or 6 actions that provoke reactions to reload his pistols (I would never play like that, but just to know the true rule of the thing)
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I will be play-testing right away, we already have a gunslinger who is anxious to try the real deal. Btw you did a gorgeous job with the feats, they are all really cool

Paizo Employee Designer

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Midnightoker wrote:

Michael some questions and early observations:

1. I am attempting to build John Wick, which seems to work either with Pistolero or Drifter. Sword and Pistol caught my eye, but there is ONE part of the feat that specifically says "weapon" and not simply "melee attack" (the part that triggers for the next strike). Is that intended? I ask because if it isn't it changes my path decision and my level 1 feat choice (this character will be for a level 1 game)

No, that should also include unarmed attacks, I'll add it above.

Quote:


2. Should Trickshot, Blast Lock, and Black Powder Boost allow Crossbows? I guess the implication for Black Powder Boost (outside the name itself) is the momentum of the firearm propels you, but just wanted to get clarfication on the first two especially since they don't seem like they should be off-limits for Crossbows (I'd argue outside the use of "Blast" Lock, that Heavy Crossbows might be able to "pick" it better, then again, arrows too). I guess the explosive barrel is harder to imagine for Crossbow on Trickshot, but it's already subject to GM interpretation so I could see it.

I think Trick Shot probably should include crossbows (the "exploding barrels" might push suspension of disbelief towards that camel bane straw, so interested it hear what other people think). I'm open to opinions on Blast Lock as I can see that going either way. Black Powder Boost is pretty explicitly something that's probably going to stay gun-locked just by virtue of the fact that crossbows are probably just not able to click into the story of that effect.

Quote:


I'm going to be the one testing this one as a GM PC in the game this weekend! Will report in hopefully soon after :) (in the appropriate thread of course)

Looking forward to hearing about your experiences!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I also agree that the feats of this class are packed with interesting mechanics and flavor. The chassis is pretty straight forward so overall it seems pretty solid all around. I had 0 interest in this class before looking closer at the feats and now I am interested in play testing one.

Even though there are fears that utilize bombs, there is no access to bombs from within the class itself right? They have to be bought or the character MCs into Alchemist?

Horizon Hunters

Hi Michael, can you clarify if the full Gunslinger would have access to Dual Weapon Reload for those folx who wish to double pistolero the day?


I've got a question

I'm just missing something or there isn't a built-in way of reloading for gunslingers that use 2 guns?

Reloading needs 1 free hand and there is nothing like dual weapon reload (Dual-Weapon Warrior Archetype) on the feat list. As it is now, reloading strike doesn't work with this fighting style and Paired Shots and Two Weapon Flurry are almost unusable outside of dropping and drawing pre-reloaded weapons.

Edit: Just saw the previous comment -_-


can i ask what was the tone and idea behind the class. it seems strange where some of the skills and feats fits and are logical as with others... its hard for me to understand how it would work. wondering if the feed back you got was to go crazy then tone it down after or is it intentional? as the DM trying to figure out how to have bullets bouncing swords back and gun flying is breaking verisimilitude


For my initial observations:

-1st: I believe that Firearm Ace and Crossbow Ace if you decide to add it to the class feat pool should be class features. For a class so built into those, picking a permanent, pasive source of damage looks like a non-decision to me. For the same reason I think Sword and Pistol should be implemented in some way or another into the Drifter Way abilities and not as a class feat.

-2nd: I believe picking Unerring Shot at 18th level after getting Shotist Edge at 17th will feel weird. Non-stacking options feel bad most of the time.

-3rd: Misfire is beatifully implemented. You did an awesome job with it IMO. It presents opportunities for roleplay and being mostly tied to class feats makes it a chosen risk instead of the constant gamble that it was in 1st edition.

-4th: I have mixed feelings about the list of firearms you gave to us. When you compare them to crossbows they don't seem that much better. They consistently have less base damage and range in exchange for Lethal. I can understand this aproach for simple firearms, but martial ones seems to just lack punch. Specially if you compare them to bows, another martial ranged weapon.

-5th: In contrast, I love your approach to the blunderbuss, very elegant. never liked the approach of blunderbusses forcing reflex saves or multiple attack rolls.

And finally a question, are Alchemical Shot and Shattering Shot a teaser for a future Way?


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Firearm Ace only lasts until end of current turn, while Crossbow Ace lasts until the end of the next turn... this seems like a mistake?


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
roquepo wrote:

For my initial observations:

-4th: I have mixed feelings about the list of firearms you gave to us. When you compare them to crossbows they don't seem that much better. They consistently have less base damage and range in exchange for Lethal. I can understand this aproach for simple firearms, but martial ones seems to just lack punch. Specially if you compare them to bows, another martial ranged weapon.

Consider, though, that Gunslingers start at 1st level with Expert in all firearms and continue to progress these proficiencies like a Fighter as they level. Considering Gunslingers are that much more accurate than other classes makes firearms that much more deadly in their hands as opposed to other classes picking up one of these firearms. Paizo has to be careful about both item rarity and making firearms too much more powerful than other weapons and spells of the same level or the game becomes unbalanced in favor of the firearms and gunslingers. I think the solution, at the time of my first read thru, is an elegant one.


Ashanderai wrote:
roquepo wrote:

For my initial observations:

-4th: I have mixed feelings about the list of firearms you gave to us. When you compare them to crossbows they don't seem that much better. They consistently have less base damage and range in exchange for Lethal. I can understand this aproach for simple firearms, but martial ones seems to just lack punch. Specially if you compare them to bows, another martial ranged weapon.

Consider, though, that Gunslingers start at 1st level with Expert in all firearms and continue to progress these proficiencies like a Fighter as they level. Considering Gunslingers are that much more accurate than other classes makes firearms that much more deadly in their hands as opposed to other classes picking up one of these firearms. Paizo has to be careful about both item rarity and making firearms too much more powerful than other weapons and spells of the same level or the game becomes unbalanced in favor of the firearms and gunslingers. I think the solution, at the time of my first read thru, is an elegant one.

Consider other classes can use them too. We can't judge firearms as a gunslinger-only thing. Martial firearms are way worse than composite bows.

Lets compare an Arquebus and a Composite Longbow. It has a worse volley trait, 20 ft less range and reload 1, then they have Fatal d12 instead of deadly d10 (Fatal d12 on a d8 weapon starts at 5 more average over a d8 deadly d10 weapon on crits, that damage difference peaks between level 4 and level 12 at 9 more average damage and then the diference slowly falls down to 6 average damage when major striking runes come online) and Sniper instead of propulsive (mostly the same damage, propulsive needs you to invest a little bit into STR and the other needs the flatfooted condition to work). Were not for the reload it would be slighly better than a composite longbow. The Arquebus being 1d10 base Fatal d12 would be far better, like a ranged pick with reload and without a consistent bonus to damage.

The same goes for the other martial weapons, don't know about bumping their damage dice, but they need some improvements.

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There's no way for a Drifter to reload a firearm while wielding a melee weapon unless they take a feat that isn't available until 6th level. Even Sword and Pistol doesn't do so.

This effectively kills the fantasy of a sword-and-gun combatant that Way of the Drifter tries to sell.


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Cyrad wrote:

There's no way for a Drifter to reload a firearm while wielding a melee weapon unless they take a feat that isn't available until 6th level. Even Sword and Pistol doesn't do so.

This effectively kills the fantasy of a sword-and-gun combatant that Way of the Drifter tries to sell.

That is odd. And yet I can’t really imagine that this is intended/somehow accidental. I would hope that there would have been some internal playtests that figured this out.

Frankly I’m still trying to work out if/why the one-handed/two-handed stuff is still a thing and if it is, why it isn’t definitively settled so the class can get on...

Paizo Employee Designer

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Unicore wrote:

I also agree that the feats of this class are packed with interesting mechanics and flavor. The chassis is pretty straight forward so overall it seems pretty solid all around. I had 0 interest in this class before looking closer at the feats and now I am interested in play testing one.

Even though there are fears that utilize bombs, there is no access to bombs from within the class itself right? They have to be bought or the character MCs into Alchemist?

Or crafted by taking the Alchemical Crafting feat and gaining the formulae, yes. There will likely be a couple crafting feats in the final version that are geared towards alchemical bullets but will also make bombs more accessible, but do be sure to include any feedback you have on the matter in the survey once you've playtested!


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It's alright to leave space in a class that can be filled by an archetype as well. I see nothing wrong with working in a bit of Alchemist to provide bombs, especially when you have 6th level access to Shattering Shot, which is pretty cool imo.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Cyrad wrote:

There's no way for a Drifter to reload a firearm while wielding a melee weapon unless they take a feat that isn't available until 6th level. Even Sword and Pistol doesn't do so.

This effectively kills the fantasy of a sword-and-gun combatant that Way of the Drifter tries to sell.

Does it actually, though?

Historically, you'd have a bracer of loaded pistols, and pistols are much more affordable now, as well as the errata having eased the restrictions on needing to count sheathes and bandoliers and letting you have a wider number of worn items. Drifter is also the most melee oriented of the ways. It's not coincidental that the gunslinger has Quick Draw as an option and Reloading Strike comes in right at the point in time where you've stepped into the realm of martial characters being beyond what is feasible in the real world and a striking weapon being something everyone will actually have.

As always in a playtest, this is not the final version of the class and there are options in place specifically to test out more experimental or less explored aspects of things. There will be new feats and likely an array of minor adjustments that could be anything from downgrading a class feat to a skill feat to adding brand new feats or more existing feats from archetypes and classes. Playtests at Paizo are always going to check out the edges of the system to see what clicks and what flops so we can use that data on each subsequent product as well.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Archetypes are cool, but I think they should feel like addons or ways to expand classes rather than something you need to make one of the expected builds function at 100%.

In particular the Drifter stands out for me here, they're really encouraged to grab a fighting style archetype to bump up their proficiency with. +2 to hit with a weapon you're going to be spending a significant amount of time swinging is really strong.


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Thank you so much for the answer. So it leans on the historic side, and maintains the limitation of the reloading needing a free hand is indeed intended. That lets me adapt accordingly
<I have never used and never will use the 6-2; Table of inhumanity in my games> But is so great to finally have an official answer.

The Gunslinger otherwise is looking so amazing, such a great job on the weapons as well. Expert level 1 + Fatal crits is a fantastic way of emulating the feel of the weapons, without breaking the thing.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Dubious Scholar wrote:
Firearm Ace only lasts until end of current turn, while Crossbow Ace lasts until the end of the next turn... this seems like a mistake?

Almost certainly my fault for not including a comment in the draft for the editors and other designers that it's paralleling an existing feat. I've added this to the corrections in the top post.


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Michael Sayre wrote:
Cyrad wrote:

There's no way for a Drifter to reload a firearm while wielding a melee weapon unless they take a feat that isn't available until 6th level. Even Sword and Pistol doesn't do so.

This effectively kills the fantasy of a sword-and-gun combatant that Way of the Drifter tries to sell.

Does it actually, though?

I'm a fan of the draw and drop model of flintlock fantasy but I worry that it's not going to work once striking runes become relavent. Pistols are cheap but runes are still expensive.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Bardarok wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:
Cyrad wrote:

There's no way for a Drifter to reload a firearm while wielding a melee weapon unless they take a feat that isn't available until 6th level. Even Sword and Pistol doesn't do so.

This effectively kills the fantasy of a sword-and-gun combatant that Way of the Drifter tries to sell.

Does it actually, though?

I'm a fan of the draw and drop model of flintlock fantasy but it's not going to work once striking runes become relavent. Pistols are cheap but runes are still expensive.

That would be why immediately after that I said "It's not coincidental that the gunslinger has Quick Draw as an option and Reloading Strike comes in right at the point in time where you've stepped into the realm of martial characters being beyond what is feasible in the real world and a striking weapon being something everyone will actually have."


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Hmmm so something like quick draw and drop until level 6 where you get reloading strike. I guess I can see that. Still dual pistol seems to have no solution other than dual weapon warrior but maybe I'll just need to play with the options a bit more. Thank you for the response.


Another question, how does Drifter's Rebounding Assault work with a gauntlet? They are attached to your hands.

Paizo Employee Designer

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roquepo wrote:
Another question, how does Drifter's Rebounding Assault work with a gauntlet? It is more or less attached to your hand.

I probably wouldn't try throwing one that I've specifically said is attached to my hand rather than just worn, but as a GM, I certainly wouldn't have any issue with someone saying they keep the laces a little loose so they can fling it at whoever offends them next.

So the answer is "Exactly like any other weapon because there's no rules element to say they should be treated differently, but if your GM says it's too immersion breaking, it's their table."

Paizo Employee Designer

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Bardarok wrote:
Hmmm so something like quick draw and drop until level 6 where you get reloading strike. I guess I can see that. Still dual pistol seems to have no solution other than dual weapon warrior but maybe I'll just need to play with the options a bit more. Thank you for the response.

Please do make sure to include your final thoughts in the post-playtest survey!

Silver Crusade

Startin and endin a duel in the same breath eh?


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So is Pistolero not actually intended to support melee builds then? If so you should probably change the fluff text that lists an SaP Musketeer as an example build.


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Michael Sayre wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Another question, how does Drifter's Rebounding Assault work with a gauntlet? It is more or less attached to your hand.

I probably wouldn't try throwing one that I've specifically said is attached to my hand rather than just worn, but as a GM, I certainly wouldn't have any issue with someone saying they keep the laces a little loose so they can fling it at whoever offends them next.

So the answer is "Exactly like any other weapon because there's no rules element to say they should be treated differently, but if your GM says it's too immersion breaking, it's their table."

Rocket fists are go.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Michael Sayre wrote:
Cyrad wrote:

There's no way for a Drifter to reload a firearm while wielding a melee weapon unless they take a feat that isn't available until 6th level. Even Sword and Pistol doesn't do so.

This effectively kills the fantasy of a sword-and-gun combatant that Way of the Drifter tries to sell.

Does it actually, though?

Historically, you'd have a bracer of loaded pistols, and pistols are much more affordable now, as well as the errata having eased the restrictions on needing to count sheathes and bandoliers and letting you have a wider number of worn items. Drifter is also the most melee oriented of the ways. It's not coincidental that the gunslinger has Quick Draw as an option and Reloading Strike comes in right at the point in time where you've stepped into the realm of martial characters being beyond what is feasible in the real world and a striking weapon being something everyone will actually have.

I'm all for a full strap of pistols, but not so much for 2, 3, 6+ hours of cleaning and maintaining them each day. That part of the Misfire rule seems to want to deter builds with multiple firearms?


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Vala the White-Haired Witch wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:
Cyrad wrote:

There's no way for a Drifter to reload a firearm while wielding a melee weapon unless they take a feat that isn't available until 6th level. Even Sword and Pistol doesn't do so.

This effectively kills the fantasy of a sword-and-gun combatant that Way of the Drifter tries to sell.

Does it actually, though?

Historically, you'd have a bracer of loaded pistols, and pistols are much more affordable now, as well as the errata having eased the restrictions on needing to count sheathes and bandoliers and letting you have a wider number of worn items. Drifter is also the most melee oriented of the ways. It's not coincidental that the gunslinger has Quick Draw as an option and Reloading Strike comes in right at the point in time where you've stepped into the realm of martial characters being beyond what is feasible in the real world and a striking weapon being something everyone will actually have.

I'm all for a full strap of pistols, but not so much for 2, 3, 6+ hours of cleaning and maintaining them each day. That part of the Misfire rule seems to want to deter builds with multiple firearms?

Oof. I hadn't considered that. A brace of pistols is looking less and less attractive.

Maybe reduce the time to 10 minutes? So the cleaning can be spaced out throughout the day during short rests?


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Feel like it'd be easier to just accept that a brace of pistols isn't a great gameplay experience even if it's more "realistic".

Paizo Employee Designer

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Vala the White-Haired Witch wrote:

I'm all for a full strap of pistols, but not so much for 2, 3, 6+ hours of cleaning and maintaining them each day. That part of the Misfire rule seems to want to deter builds with multiple firearms?

For clarity, that's going to get tweaked to specify that you can maintain multiple guns at once during your maintenance time. Because 2 guns are still going to have issues as well, even if not to the same degree as six. Will add that to the top post.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Depending upon how the final version of the doubling rings works, I could see the brace of pistols working even at higher levels if you don't have to invest in the runes for your pistol hand. For 2 gun fighting you only drop one gun, freeing your hand to reload the other and then drawing a new one with quick draw.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Unicore wrote:
Depending upon how the final version of the doubling rings works, I could see the brace of pistols working even at higher levels if you don't have to invest in the runes for your pistol hand. For 2 gun fighting you only drop one gun, freeing your hand to reload the other and then drawing a new one with quick draw.

There's also other cool possibilities, depending on what concepts most appeal to people as they playtest the classes. I could see, for example, a magical bandolier that you actually slot fundamental runes into, and then it can hold a set number of pistols that those runes are all cloned to so you can draw, fire, drop, and then have it magically rematerialize in the bandolier where it gets automatically reloaded over some fixed period of time. That particular execution could be really interesting for a character who also wants to mix Alchemical Shot into their routine by crossing a bandolier of bombs for each element type across the opposite shoulder, for example, since that could also involve a lot of active variance in how many free hands you have during any given activity.


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Such a bandolier, if it were to exist would be neat. How about something like this:

Fusilier's Bandolier
[Invested][Magical][Transmutation]
This finely made and richly decorated bandolier has six loops made to hold a single one handed firearm each. A user can bind up to six one handed firearms to the bandolier during their daily preparations by speaking a command while placing the firearm in the bandolier.

The bandolier can be etched with runes as though it were a one handed firearm, including fundamental runes. Any fundamental or property runes of firearms bound to the bandolier deactivate until unbound from the bandolier due to interference. Firearms drawn from the bandolier benefit from the bandoliers fundamental and property runes.

Whenever the wearer draws, fires and drops a firearm from the bandolier, the firearm is automatically returned to the bandolier at the end of their turn.

The bandolier also incorporates an ammunition bag that hangs at the wearers waist. The pouch appears mundane most of the time. The first time the pouch is opened on a given day the pouch opens to an extradimensional space instead of its usual interior. This space can be filled with up to 12 shots of ammunition, after which the pouch cannot be opened. Any items other than ammunition placed in the extradimensional space are ejected upon closing the pouch.

[single action][manipulate] Prime: You tighten the straps of the bandolier. Each unloaded firearm in the bandolier is automatically reloaded using one round of ammunition from the ammo pouches extradimensional space.


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I really like the flavor of multiple near-single shot pistols. There's lots of design space there, I'd almost advocate for a separate Way focused around preparing multiple pistols (say w/ alchemy) with different effects and choosing which one to use. It also incentivizes keeping a crossbow around as a backup, which I think is neat.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I actually really like gunslingers having same weapon proficiency progression with firearms(and crossbows) as fighters: Gunslinger being uncommon class means it might not be allowed in every campaign and I could see it as decent replacement for fighters in western genre campaigns and such :D

(Though yeah need testing to see how getting legendary for simple fire arms/crossbows at level 13 works O_o)


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Michael Sayre wrote:

For clarity, that's going to get tweaked to specify that you can maintain multiple guns at once during your maintenance time. Because 2 guns are still going to have issues as well, even if not to the same degree as six. Will add that to the top post.

Thank you for clarifying. That seems a lot more encouraging!

To further be sure I understand; this adds an additional hour of prep to any classes with morning to-do lists such as Wizards or someone donning armour?

Paizo Employee Designer

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Vala the White-Haired Witch wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:

For clarity, that's going to get tweaked to specify that you can maintain multiple guns at once during your maintenance time. Because 2 guns are still going to have issues as well, even if not to the same degree as six. Will add that to the top post.

Thank you for clarifying. That seems a lot more encouraging!

To further be sure I understand; this adds an additional hour of prep to any classes with morning to-do lists such as Wizards or someone donning armour?

Probably. Assume "yes" for now but tell me in the playtest survey feedback (or whenever you start relaying playtest feedback) if that ends up feeling really sucky as it's still open to change. There's a line between "morning prep should be a formality 99% percent of the time and only matter when the plot or encounters dictate otherwise" and "it's breaking everyone's immersion to think that you can memorize 47 spells while cleaning a dozen guns in the same hour" and I'd like to try and find the solution that improves the game for the greatest number of people.

Sovereign Court

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Michael Sayre wrote:
Vala the White-Haired Witch wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:

For clarity, that's going to get tweaked to specify that you can maintain multiple guns at once during your maintenance time. Because 2 guns are still going to have issues as well, even if not to the same degree as six. Will add that to the top post.

Thank you for clarifying. That seems a lot more encouraging!

To further be sure I understand; this adds an additional hour of prep to any classes with morning to-do lists such as Wizards or someone donning armour?

Probably. Assume "yes" for now but tell me in the playtest survey feedback (or whenever you start relaying playtest feedback) if that ends up feeling really sucky as it's still open to change. There's a line between "morning prep should be a formality 99% percent of the time and only matter when the plot or encounters dictate otherwise" and "it's breaking everyone's immersion to think that you can memorize 47 spells while cleaning a dozen guns in the same hour" and I'd like to try and find the solution that improves the game for the greatest number of people.

We don't need longer morning prep for wizards with witch, alchemist and druid multiclasses either do we?


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Many spells that kinda controlls a target does not give the controlled condition and lasts one turn making stubborn bonus effect forgetable.

Command and suggestion is a way too common occurance and something stubborn should help against somehow (can't crit fail or something)

just something I noticed planning a game for my lvl 4 players

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While the brace of pistols style is more realistic and a cool fantasy in its own right, the action economy of sword-and-pistol still doesn't sound like a good experience, especially for a fairly low mechanical pay off. While pistols are cheaper, they're still not cheap enough for most low level characters to string a bandolier of them and throw them away.

But we'll see how it rolls. Thanks for the response!


I have no real complaints here, I’d like some more options but that’s always true.


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What I missed, that nobody has mentioned (that I've seen), from my read-through of this is the gun-based melee options that the Gunslinger had in 1e. Things like bayonets, pistol whipping/rifle clubbing, and even a shoot and sear (fire your gun, then burn your enemy with the still-hot barrel) would be a great way to add flavorful melee options to the class, and might even build into a new Way for the Gunslinger.

To be sure, bayonets, pistol whips, etc. could give additional options for the Way of the Drifter, without tying up the free hand needed for reloading.


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If the brace of pistols concept is the intended way to play some of the playstyles then Quick Draw needs to change, thought it could come from a Gunslinger only feat/feature to preserve the existing Quick Draw. Being unable to mix Quick Draw with any action in the entire class except basic Strike is a huge problem given how inefficient it is to reload otherwise.

Adding some kind of ability to Pistolero or to the class in general (as a feat or feature) along the lines of: "After you Release a weapon you're holding you can Interact to draw a weapon as a free action."

I don't know if you would want further restrictions, but I'll give some examples as to why I think this sort of change is necessary, especially for the dual pistol playstyle.

Paired Shots is an 8th level feat designed for a dual wielding ranged Gunslinger. It has a requirement that you're wielding two loaded one-handed crossbows or firearms and it takes two actions to use. If you are expected to offset the cost of reloading by drawing guns from your brace of pistols with Quick Draw, then you will need to spend two actions to draw your pistols and then wait until your next turn to actually use Paired Shots.

In addition this change would allow a Gunslinger to use the last action of their turn to Strike with a Firearm or Crossbow and still be able to use Reactions that require a loaded weapon, which as it stands is quite a problem for the class.

Another big problem (with all the Ways) is the issue of reactions and Capstone feat Slinger's Reflexes. Allowing Pistoleros/Gunslingers to release their guns outside of their turn in addition to the previous rules suggestion would solve this problem for the Pistol Brace style of play.

Sovereign Court

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Yeah, the Quickdraw paradigm doesn't work for me, because it locks you out of all the other "do something interesting with a Strike" feats.

I realize drawing and reloading weapons is a big thing in this class.

The Ways do a nice job of drawing weapons at the start of combat, although I think you'll get some friction with existing play practices where parties already walk through the dungeon with weapons in hand, or GMs insisting that you have to walk around with weapons sheathed otherwise these class features wouldn't be valuable. Also, the Sniper way has this weird thing where if you've already drawn your gun before combat, you don't get the damage bonus because you can't draw it and then use "the gun you just drew".

But I think the best solution is something else I've seen proposed - pair Reloading with interesting actions. Do a Recall Knowledge for free while your Reload. Move while Reloading (this already exists, and is a good example of what we need more of). Maybe grit your teeth (see what I did there) while you Reload and attempt a saving throw to throw off a bad condition at the same time. Stare threateningly at someone while you Reload and bring you your gun again their direction.

Reloading is a signature of this class. But it should be an interesting signature, not a chore to try to circumvent.


Question, given that this is a book on magi-tech will it include more armor runes with unique functions to make the most of those new slots the inventor can get?


Physicskid42 wrote:
Question, given that this is a book on magi-tech will it include more armor runes with unique functions to make the most of those new slots the inventor can get?

Plausibly. Some more runes maybe appearing before that in the Secrets of Magic book, too. I strongly suspect we're not just sitting on the same semi-thin list forever.

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