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Porridge wrote:
Mewzard wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Mewzard wrote:
Out of curiosity, what's the highest CR Monster in the book?
Fafnheir is level 24.

Thanks!

Guess my dream of some horrifying CR30 monstrosity will have to wait.

Any Great Wyrms yet? Last I saw, we were still peaking with Ancient Dragons.

Well, there is an entry for a class of monsters too powerful to get stats (the book flatly states that level 15-20 characters aren't powerful enough to deal with them)...

Guess that's when you bust out Epic Levels/Mythic.


keftiu wrote:
Mewzard wrote:
Out of curiosity, what's the highest CR Monster in the book?
Fafnheir is level 24.

Thanks!

Guess my dream of some horrifying CR30 monstrosity will have to wait.

Any Great Wyrms yet? Last I saw, we were still peaking with Ancient Dragons.


Out of curiosity, what's the highest CR Monster in the book?


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WatersLethe wrote:
Djinn71 wrote:
Onkonk wrote:
Djinn71 wrote:
They can be very suboptimal though, like a (non-pixie) Sprite Rogue that can't flank. They can't be literally useless though I guess.
Though I guess that depends on how married you are to a specific rogue concept. Ruffian with longspear or a ranged rogue would work fine.

Yeah, this one's a bit of a pet issue for me with the Sprite ancestry, because I thought the stereotypical/most desired combo for Sprite/Rogue was a tiny Dual Wielding Thief Rogue.

I think the flanking rules for tiny creatures (especially tiny PCs) missed the mark a bit, given they're mostly shown in media fighting things that are distracted by bigger foes.

Akshually, the more common trope is them wielding a weapon oversized for themselves, often with two hands, but big enough to potentially be dangerous to a larger foe. A spear would be an excellent weapon for a sprite.

An oversized weapon for a Sprite? So, a Sprite Giant Instinct Barbarian. Eventually it grows Huge and you see just how terrifying a Sprite's detailed appearance looks at that size, lol.


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HeHateMe wrote:
RiverMesa wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:
How much damage does the Anadi's bite attack do? D6? D8?
D6, yeah.
Ugh. Between the CON penalty and the piddly bite damage, doesn't look like Anadi are suitable for Martial characters, except maybe Rogue. Too bad, I was thinking it'd be cool to play an Anadi Fighter or Ranger who mostly uses his bite attack. Thank you for answering my question!

Never forget with the optional flaw rule, you can turn that Con penalty into a bonus if you want to.

To me, there's no such thing as an Ancestry-Class combo that can't work. Whether it's a Sprite Barbarian or an Android Bard.


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Anyone else excited for Soulforge Armaments? I can now become a Kamen Rider by summoning my suit after a transformation sequence.

It's the little things. Probably pairs well with Vigilante, lol.


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Don't forget Aaron Shanks confirmed the Azarketi (Gillmen) will be a part of the Ancestry Guide in the comments section for the book.

Well, technically, additional content for the Azarketi. We'll get a free PDF released around the time of the book for their default material since they were supposed to be included in the delayed Absalom book IIRC.


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Claxon wrote:

This is another great example of why PF1 appealed to me and why PF2 doesn't.

Because absolutely in PF1 the options you take are to specialize into something, it often doesn't do much to expand your options.

While in PF2 character builds rarely do much to allow you to specialize into something (skill feats not withstanding, I do actually really like those) but expand the options that you have available to you.

So rather than giving you more attack bonus or damage, they're going to give you an option that allows you to do something like spend two actions to make a single strike with increased damage (but less damage than if you could successfully make two strikes) which might be beneficial against an enemy with high AC or DR, but isn't an outright improvement to what you could already do.

And for me that's unrewarding.

On one hand, I get it, specializing can be fun, but man, there's only so many times you can Full Round Attack before changing it up sounds great.

Options are something I'm always hoping for in 1e. So I welcome a game that lets me have a wide swath of options for varied situations.

I also like that you're not punished for taking skill options, as in 1e, they were taking the slot of your needed combat options.

There's a lot of solid class options for handing a variety of situations, and I like that.


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Cthulhusquatch wrote:

Something tells me those may be coming. Advanced firearms are just not in this playtest.

Soluzar wrote:
I was hoping we could get some wild west style six-shooters for this. Flintlocks are just plain boring.

Man, that'd be the choice. Revolvers having six shots per gun...but the -2 to hit for being Master at Advanced Firearms vs Legendary at Simple/Martial Firearms.

The tough choice.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
3) Much more minor, but to clarify the math of Cloud Jump, added an example of a character with 40 foot Speed who rolled a 25 and has Cloud Jump.

Having checked the Errata...Cloud Jump is significantly less fun of a Skill Feat now. This is for Legendary Athletes, like those in Greek Myths.

If all adding actions does is increase your limit, then the High Jump capability is not a lot, since only the Long Jump distance is tripled.

A Legendary Athlete at level 20 with 24 Strength and a +3 item would peak at 20+8+7+3 or around +38. Even with a natural 20, a Monk could have a higher speed than that High Jump.

Now hitting that 50ish feet and then adding an additional 55 or so feet with each action to get into that Dragon's face as he's trying to Circle Strafe 100 feet up with a breath weapon, only to either Flurry his face or grapple him with Titan Wrestler?

Now that's what I'd call Legendary.

I'm fine with a lot of the other Errata, but that one saddens me.


Uncle_T wrote:
Is this going to be for PF or PF2?

As Cabbage noted, the lore is very usable for either version. That said, it is about 10 years later, so there's probably some changes here and there.

But yeah, anything mechanical (Ancestries, Archetypes, Backgrounds, Feats, etc) will be 2e.


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I mean, they're not half casters per se, but apparently the Magus won't get 10th level spells and will get fewer spell slots to compensate for their martial prowess.

Honestly, I like the system we have now. Before, multiclassing could be fairly punishing for a caster outside of perhaps a single level dip, but now, I like that you can still be good at your spells, but if you want to take the Archer archetype, you can do decent with a bow. Yeah, the lowered to hit isn't as fun, but you're only one proficiency rung below most martial classes.

But yeah, if you want a good martial ability with lowered casting performance, a spellcasting archetype is the best answer currently in the system.


If you were invested enough as a caster to want to rock the Bow and Spells...why not grab the Archer Dedication at level 2 and start grabbing Archer feats in advance to support your eventual Eldritch Archer?

Seems like a logical path and a good one from a story perspective. You're mixing Ranged and Magic early on, so your crazy Eldritch Archer feats just further support the character that you want to do, but you can still do that character from level 2, just having to wait for Eldritch Shot. Which makes sense.

You start off being good at both Bow and Spells. Then eventually you figure out how to combine the two into one. The DM could very well be willing to let you have story moments leading up to that.

The melee character taking Eldritch Archer needs the spellcasting feats more than you do, and there's no feat in the Archetype letting them gain more than one spell slot like the multiclassing archetypes, so you'll be doing significantly better in the magic department (even though they'll be doing fairly well). This isn't like old multiclassing where you'd lose out on spell levels depending upon the class. A Caster Class is a full caster no matter how they Archetype/Multiclass.


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As was noted, Incapacitation helps Players more than it helps the GM's monsters.

Incapacitation tags mean several devastating spells from lots of lower-end monsters won't end you.

Just imagine several lower level casters dropped a 4th level Sleep on you. It doesn't matter how much stronger you are if your party screws up the rolls and you're being brained to death while unconscious for one minute.

The alternative is your Monk can't put the higher level boss in a Sleeper Hold and knock them out for one minute, the best the Monk can manage with that is Clumsy 1.

Incapacitation spells and abilities are for equal level threats and below.


Seisho wrote:

Monastic Weaponry wouldn't even cover bows (except monk tag bows) raw

But considerin the feats the monastic archery style gets I can imagine that this was done on purpose

I more refer to Monastic Weapons due to this line in Brawling Focus:

"If you have Monastic Weaponry, you also gain the critical specialization effects of all monk weapons in which you are trained."

And the Monastic Archer Stance:

"Special When you select this feat, you become trained in the longbow, shortbow, and any simple and martial bows with the monk trait. If you gain the expert strikes class feature, your proficiency rank for these weapons increases to expert, and if you gain the master strikes class feature, your proficiency rank for these weapons increases to master."


Unlike many martial classes that get Critical Specialization through their Class Features, Monks get it through a feat:

"Brawling Focus Feat 2
Monk
Source Core Rulebook pg. 160 1.1
You know how to make the most of your attacks when fighting hand-to-hand. You gain access to the critical specialization effects of unarmed strikes in the brawling group and weapons in the brawling group. If you have Monastic Weaponry, you also gain the critical specialization effects of all monk weapons in which you are trained."

Now, this feat not only covers unarmed strikes, but shows how it handles weapons with Monastic Weaponry, which is great...but Monastic Archer Stance doesn't require Monastic Weaponry.

Is the only way to get your Critical Specialization with a Bow to take Monastic Weaponry, a feat you may not even want to take otherwise? If so, I think Brawling Focus could use a bit of Errata to make an exception for Monastic Archer Stance, that's a pretty heavy cost otherwise to obtain it.


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Strill wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
It's easier to get Panache than it is to inflict Flat-Footed, FWIW.
What game are you playing? It's way way easier to get flat-footed than Panache. Panache always requires you spend an action and roll a successful skill check, whereas if you move around an enemy to flank them, you require no rolls, and that flank can potentially continue on into the next turn. In the worst-case scenario for a Rogue, they can roll to Feint, which is equivalent to what a Swashbuckler would have to do. In the best-case (typical case) scenario for a Rogue, they take feats like Dread Striker and Gang Up, so they almost always have their opponent flat-footed without any actions or rolls at all.

Always requires an action and a successful skill check? After You lets you always start with Panache by simply choosing to go last.

If you have Finishing Follow-Through, then taking out a foe with a Finisher means you never lose Panache in the first place.


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Salamileg wrote:
And, important note, Bulwark only gives its bonus against damaging effects. It'll help you against a Fireball, but not a Grease spell.

Unless you're a Sentinel, then picking up this seems useful:

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2066

"Mighty Bulwark Feat 10
Archetype
Source Advanced Player's Guide pg. 191
Archetype Sentinel
Prerequisites Sentinel Dedication
Thanks to your incredible connection to your armor, you can use it to shrug off an incredible array of dangers. Your bonus from the bulwark armor trait increases from +3 to +4, and it applies on all Reflex saves, not just damaging Reflex saves."

Deadmanwalking wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Funny, I was just thinking that a swashbuckler (except for Gymnasts) can get away with just enough strength to carry their gear.

Like the 2 damage difference between Str 14 and Str 18 doesn't seem that significant, since Swashes don't tend to make a lot of attacks.

This is also true. Strength on a Swashbuckler tends to be a very low percentage of their damage.

I mean, if you're doing Finishers pretty much all the time (and you should be), by 10th level you're probably doing 7d6+2 (for an average of 26.5) on top of your Str mod. Whether your Str Mod is +1 or +4 at that point is verging on irrelevant. I mean, technically that +3 to Str Mod is almost 10% of your damage...but doing 90% damage for +3 to another Ability Modifier is very possibly a trade worth making.

I like that Swashbucklers aren't about hitting with full Strength a bunch of times, but knowing when and where to throw that dramatically stylish finisher.

It's nice to have a few martials that can thrive without a bunch of Strength.


What's really nice for high level Swashbuckers is that at level 19, all Finishers and Opportune Riposte get the failure effect of Confident Finisher (including Precise Finisher), so they're doing damage a lot of the time even against hard to hit foes.

Let's not forget they're the only class that gets Expanded Crit if I'm not mistaken:

"Keen Flair Level 15
You inflict particularly devastating attacks on even well-defended foes. When you Strike with a weapon or unarmed attack with which you have master proficiency, if you roll a 19 on the die and the roll is a success, you critically succeed instead."

More Crits are always good in my book.


SuperBidi wrote:
Mewzard wrote:
And if you take Precise Finisher, Confident Finisher does full damage on a failure.
No, only the Precise Strike damage (which is a nice portion of a Finisher anyway).

Yeah, full Finisher damage, which is what I meant.

Blue_frog wrote:

Upon reading it, I thought the exact opposite: Wit seems to be the weakest of all swashbucklers, which is a shame since it was the one I was excited about the most.

Bon Mot has the Linguistic tag ("An effect with this trait depends on language comprehension. A linguistic effect that targets a creature works only if the target understands the language you are using.").

This means it doesn't work against all beasts and animals, and against all monster that don't speak your language.

Also, the debuff is pretty heavy but if I understand correctly, the opponent can sacrifice an action to take the debuff away. An action for an action is a good tradeoff against a boss, less against a mook.

OTOH, there is no immunity after being victim of Bon Mot, and the level 9 finisher effect of the Wit Swashbuckler is probably the best of all (-2 to attack against you, no string attached).

You could always grab Multilingual, one skill feat for two languages known can minimize those who would be immune (especially handy if you know what common enemies you can expect to face).

Also, yeah, making a boss give up actions to not be suffering big will debuffs is handy (plus, every time it's used, you get Panache back on a success). Also, perhaps less importantly to some, but great to me is that the enemy needs to retort your insult. We're going full Monkey Island Insult Sword Fighting, and I love it.

That -2 for the finisher effect is so good, and makes you all the more likely to end up in a scenario where you can take an Opportune Riposte.


I mean, if I were playing a Swashbuckler, I'd probably always be using After You. Going last is a small price to pay for always starting an encounter with Panache.

As was noted above, keeping Panache with Finishing Follow-Through is good too.

"Finishing Follow-Through Feat 2
Swashbuckler
Source Advanced Player's Guide pg. 89
Finishing a foe maintains your swagger. You gain panache if your finisher brings the target to 0 HP (or brings the highest-level target to 0 HP, if your finisher attacks multiple targets)."

Wit Swashbuckler would be my choice. Bon Mot is a fantastic skill feat to use and it gets you Panache if you succeed, which is probably one of the easier ways to gain Panache. Plus up to -3 on Will Saves and Perception checks on a foe for a minute? Yes please.

It also lets One for All be an option for gaining Panache while helping an ally, though it needs a decently high roll.

SuperBidi wrote:
And it also looks like you forgot one thing in your analysis: Confident Finisher does half damage on failure. It's a pretty big deal.

And if you take Precise Finisher, Confident Finisher does full damage on a failure.


Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Just a note, remember that at 16, you can grab a feat to add a knockback effect to the punch. At that level, the punch adds 2 or 4 extra dices, I'm not sure how strong that is, but I'm guessing the upside is not having to deal with MAP.

Some people might not like the risk of MAP, so this could appeal to them?
I dunno if it's great, but a dragon stance at level 10 could put out 5d10 + Dice from runes.

Any idea how far One Millimeter Punch sends them flying? I don't see any range.

In the PDF, it's a basic save that goes: No distance, 5 feet, 10 feet, 10 feet per action used for One-Inch Punch (so 20-30 feet).


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Gisher wrote:
Azurespark wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Thanks for the reply. Does devise stratagem extend beyond basic attacks? Like does it apply to combat maneuvers? Or things like intimidation?
Athletic Strategist is a 2nd lv investigator feat that allows you to use your stratagem role for disarm, grapple, shove, and trip attempts. That's all I've found so far.
At first I was really excited about Athletic Strategist, but I'm beginning to think it is a bit of a trap. I anticipate Devise a Strategy being my primary combat tool. If I get a good roll then I get to use my Int and Strategic Strike, and all is good. If I roll badly, though, I can just skip that roll by using an attack that isn't a Strike. I'm thinking either a cantrip (from Int-based MC) or an athletic maneuver would be good choices. But Athletic Strategist forces you to use the roll for your next strike or athletic maneuver, so it removes an option that you had before.

Keep in mind, you only have to use the roll on the target of Devise a Strategy. If you change targets, you're not locked in.


Let's see what Paizo has to say on the GM's role:

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=812

"Remember the First Rule
Source Gamemastery Guide pg. 5
The first rule of Pathfinder is that this game is yours. The rest of the rules exist for you to use to tell the stories you want to tell and share exciting adventures with your friends. There are plenty of rules in this book, but none of them overrule that first rule. Take the rules that help you make the game you want, change those that don’t do quite what you need them to, and leave the ones that aren’t helping. It’s your game. There’s no right or wrong way to GM so long as everyone is having fun—and that includes you!"

If a rule truly was holding back your game and the fun of your players, toss it. If it's a home game, PFS isn't an issue. Not that I think these feats are causing the issues some are arguing, but that's an option.

Also, on those stating you can only do things if they're firmly set in the rules:

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=892

The Gamemastery Guide encourages you to give player ideas a chance, albeit perhaps with an extra roll if something is particularly uncertain. So, instead of saying "no, because this isn't clearly laid out in the rules", you might want to say "Yes, but you're uncertain if this will have the desired effect, roll a d20 and add your dexterity modifier as you need to have precise timing" or maybe add an extra action.

As the GM, you're going to be occasionally surprised by players. In a way perhaps even the creators of the game didn't expect. You gotta roll with those punches at times.

If your player's small Monk was eaten by a T-Rex, you might have to consider that the AC of its stomach is lower than its external AC, because that small Monk is going to be punching and kicking in there (I speak from experience in this scenario from when I played a Svirfneblin Monk and was arguing with my GM about that, lol).


I mean, there's a wide variety of interesting features for the Swashbuckler.

Their mobility is one. The Swashbuckler's going to outspeed anyone but a Monk, whose speed it matches (while in Armor at that). That's not even including a bevy of feats designed to keep you moving around the battlefield. Swashbuckler was advertised from early on as being the mobility class.

They have a built in Expanded Crit with Keen Flair, which is useful.

While their finishers are less frequent than a sneak attack, there's a lot of good choices for them that make them rather useful (and the level 19 feature making it where you still deal damage even on a failure on all Finishers, not just the default one, is quite handy).


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I like the mental image of a Monastic Archer Monk combining One-Inch Punch and One-Millimeter Punch to just hammer a foe with a 10d8 hit and send them flying 30 feet away, into a wall or off a cliff.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
I'm really liking Investigator. I'm currently considering how to build one to properly do what I want to do in a game, but there are several interesting options for the kinds of builds I really like, so that's good.

I love Skill-focused characters, so Investigator is great for me. Skill points every level, Skill Feats every level (with half of them needing to be INT/WIS/CHA skillsor Methodology based), adding your level to all untrained Recall Knowledge checks, it's great. I love the flavor of the class and all the crazy things it can do.

That said, the mobility and flavor of Swashbuckler is great. You can literally become an Insult Sword Fighter from Monkey Island with the Wit style, and it's all swagger in the best ways.

Man, the game really is better than ever with this book's additions.


Ascalaphus wrote:
What's with the hate against kobolds?

Zero hate against Kobolds, they just thematically fit with Dragons well.


Draco18s wrote:
Be a goblin. They bounce.

Unbreakable Goblins halve fall damage, which is nice. Unbreakable-er Goblins take no fall damage...and turn into Superballs if you take the Bouncy Goblin feat. It's kind of amazing.

Just picturing a Goblin Giant-Instinct Barbarian doing an elbow drop from atop a mountain, splattering some poor Kobold, then rocketing back up to swing their Large Great Axe into a Dragon's face.

But yeah, there's spells for reducing falling damage, feats, not so much purely in rolling for Acrobatics, but hey, Catfall is a pretty cheap way to remove fall damage as an issue.


Winkie_Phace wrote:
Alchemists are so vanilla we had them IRL, and hell, a lot of modern chemistry can seem pretty magical.

The amazing thing about Science is that you can turn Lead into Gold in the real world...but it costs more to turn Lead into Gold than the Gold is worth by a massive margin.

But yeah, I see nothing weird whatsoever about Alchemists or Goblins in core. That should be a permanent standard if anything.


pauljathome wrote:

This is one area where I prefer 1e to 2e.

In 1e most small races at least paid lip service to the idea that they were less powerful in traditional (str based) martial roles. Still fairly unrealistic but it at least allowed me to more easily suspend my disbelief

I played a Svirneblin Unchained Monk, and 1e never made me feel too weak (even after I stripped out the defensive racial traits to prevent any issues of imbalance). Once I retrained into Serpent-Fire Adept at later levels, I was actively terrifying. When you're doing 8 attacks and rolling all d20s twice and taking the higher result, size really stops mattering. Especially when you have both Flying Kick and Pummeling Charge, so you always full round.

But yeah, I'm glad 2e has done away with what little punishments there were for size. If I want to play a Goblin Giant Instinct Barbarian swinging around a Large Bastard Sword like I was Guts, I should be able to do it. If I want to leap like 60 feet in the air and swing that sword down on a Dragon, that's what Cloud Leap and a few supporting feats are for.

Sometimes you want your Monk to choke out a monster three times their size. Titan Wrestler is my jam in that case.


My big question is, where is the Monk's Impossible Technique? 20th level feat, gives a reaction. If you're hit, you make the attacking foe reroll and take the worse result. If you fail a saving throw? You reroll and take the better result.

Both are great options, and all come under one feat. It reminded me a bit of the Crown Chakra my Serpent Fire Adept Unchained Monk had.


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I'm amazed at how much is coming with this book. Yeah, we got three Ancestries in the Lost Omens Character Guide and another one in a recent adventure path (Pug People ftw), but four entire classes? Five new Ancestries? Five Heritages that can be added to any of the now fifteen existing Ancestries? 40 pages of Archetypes? All existing classes getting more options? And of course more spells.

This one book will add more to PF2e for the start of its second year than has been added to 5e altogether, lol.

I'm definitely going to try out one of the variable Heritage with a non-human Ancestry. Maybe a Goblin Aasimar...ooh, or a Tiefling Shoony. Half Hellpug, Half Man. Really, any of them combined with Leshy just sounds amazing.

Honestly, of the new classes, Investigator hits my skilling love. If the adventure in Absalom is up by then, I'll definitely want to play an Investigator for that.

Though, the mobility of Swashbucklers has me tempted.


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Mythic Proficiencies maybe? Level+10? New skill feats befitting god tier? There are options, it depends upon how complicated you want to make it.


Ah, I never noticed about the product description. Still, it's all looking quite interesting to me.

Sorry for making the out of date topic, lol.


I recently checked Amazon and saw the Advanced Player's Guide for pre-order, and while checking it out, I found additional details I don't remember seeing before for the AGP.

https://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-RPG-Advanced-Players-Guide/dp/1640782575

"The Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide includes:
• Four new classes: the investigator, oracle, swashbuckler, and witch!
• Five new ancestries and five heritages for any ancestry: celestial aasimars, curious catfolk, hagspawned changelings, vampiric dhampirs, fate-touched duskwalkers, scaled kobolds, fierce orcs, fiendish tieflings, industrious ratfolk, and feathered tengu!
• 40 new archetypes including multiclass archetypes for the four new classes, Pathfinder favorites like the cavalier, dragon disciple, shadowdancer, and vigilante, and brand-new archetypes like the familiar master and the shield-bearing iron wall!
• New class options for all twelve classes from the Pathfinder Core Rulebook including champions of evil, genie and shadow sorcerers, zen archer monks, rogue masterminds, spellcasting rangers, and more!
• Even more exciting new rules, from rare and unique backgrounds to investigative skill feats, from spells and rituals like reincarnate and create demiplane to new items including special wands with unusual effects and exciting potions worthy of a witch’s cauldron."

Did anyone else before know of the Evil Champions coming, that the new options were specifically five Ancestries and five Heritages, some of the specific new Archetypes and rituals like Reincarnate and Create Demiplane?

If so, I apologize for reposting the info, but I don't remember seeing it before today.

Thoughts on the new info? Familiar Master sounds interesting, as does Iron Wall and Spellcasting Rangers.


Captain Morgan wrote:
I'd say no, you really don't need it. Also monks have better options than climbing if they don't mind spending class feats like wall running or flying.

I just like the option of being able to fight in any given scenario, and at full speed. Put a decent chunk of my skill feats into that to save Class Feats for the good stuff (options for maneuvers, ki powers, and of course a decent stance).

Set up to do solid attacking and tanking as well. Good times.


While trying to build my old 20th level Monk in 2e, I considered Combat Climber for some all terrain fighting, but what it does is this:

"Your techniques allow you to fight as you climb. You’re not flat-footed while Climbing and can Climb with a hand occupied. You must still use another hand and both legs to Climb."

Well, Quick Climbing grants a Climb Speed at Legendary Athletics, which removes flat-footed and my Monk is hand to hand only, so no weapons to occupy a hand.

That made me wonder...does it serve any purpose? Is it required for those moments you use a hand to strike, or is it not particularly useful now?

If it serves no purpose, I'd toss it for another feat. Any help here would be greatly appreciated.


So, what’s the word on the Student of Perfection?


Vlorax wrote:

Seems intended to me by the wording of the feat.

If you're small and want to wrestle with the big boys multiclass into Barb(giant instinct) and take Giant's Stature feat.

That multiclass really doesn't fit (even ignoring that it took every single last class feat to create my character correctly)...guess I'll just have to wait for either Paizo to clarify or ask for a houserule on the subject.

Thanks for the idea though, it's not a terrible one for a more appropriate character.


Titan Wrestler is a useful feat that lets you Disarm, Grapple, Shove, or Trip creatures two sizes larger than you, and that grows to three sizes larger than you at Legendary Athletics.

For a normal sized creature, that means you can use these maneuvers on literally everything, but a small-sized creature, it means you peak at Huge.

Do you think that was the intent of the feat to limit small PCs? Just feels off that a difference of two feet could be all that stands in the way of one Monk German Suplexing a T-Rex, while another has no real issues doing so.


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Squiggit wrote:

This is one thing I kinda hate. Classes like Bard and Ranger went from being high skill classes to just baseline and that feels pretty jarring.

I mean it's nice not having the Fighter et al. just be terrible at skills for no good reason, but I'm not sure I like high-skill being the sole purview of rogues either. Investigators will probably get good skill increases too but that doesn't really change the point.

I can't speak for Ranger, but the Bard still has great skilling options. Bardic Lore, for instance, lets you do Recall Knowledge checks on literally every single subject, and can hit Expert, so while you might be -4 compared to someone with Legendary in a Lore or say Arcana, you can literally recall from all subjects.

Versatile Performance meanwhile lets you use Performance to Make an Impression, Demoralize, and Impersonate instead of Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Deception (and lets you get the skill feats from those skills with Performance's proficiency).

Taking Eclectic Skill lets you add your level to all untrained skills and lets you do any skill check that requires you to be trained. Bump that up to any skill check that requires you be Expert when you hit Legendary Occultism (that's also when Bardic Lore bumps up to Expert).

Hell, Inspire Competence lets you use your Performance to Aid your ally on a skill check, and bumps up any failures to successes. Legendary in Performance? Auto Critical Success.

The Bard definitely still has a role as a skilling character, it's just not set up the same as the Rogue.


Bandw2 wrote:
Kyrone wrote:

Tiefling and Aasimar will be heritages, it was mentioned at Paizocon.

The different types of them could just get the Elf Atavism treatment.

ooo nice to hear. did they say what they'll apply to? any races or specific ones for various races?

They mentioned several examples, like Elf Aasimar, Dwarf Aasimar, etc.

It's not only Aasimar and Tiefling, I believe Duskwalker is also a heritage.

They should be for all Ancestries.

Hell, even Half-Elf and Half-Orc had a note in the Core Rulebook saying that GMs could allow said Heritages to pretty much any Ancestry if they want, with a little detail into how it worked.

I'd love to see a Half-Giant Heritage down the line. GM let me play a Half-Giant Unchained Barbarian for our Iron Gods game, and that's been fun.


graystone wrote:

For me, I'm lucky to see a game run to 12th so I'm only going to see 2 or 3 of those feat. It's great that there are cool feats like that, but it's not something special for the ranger.

No, not at all. Fighter has gotten loads of upgrades for instance. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

It's not good for that though: it gives them a free action to Sneak but gives them no bonuses to do so. For a bonus, you need to follow the leader than that is a different action. What this is good at is that it allows your already stealthy party to do multiple things. For instance, now your rogue friend with Trap Finder can sneak, search for traps, and investigate all at once.

Oh, they can kills things quite well so no complaints there: it's the rest that's an issue as you seem to have to mono-focus as much as possible to keep an aspect relevant and that of course comes at the detriment of any other facet of the character you want.

True, but some skill feats can let you do things that weren't possible in 1e (or required a lot of effort to get to).

It's quite alright, it's like 2AM at this point, misunderstandings are bound to happen, lol.

Oh, I did misread that...though that is still quite useful.

I mean, it's really a question of how good you want to be at one thing vs how minimally good you're willing to be at several things. Do you want to be a good archer and tracker, or do you want to be THE BEST Archer or THE BEST Tracker? That sort of thing. A specialist or more of a generalist.

In my longest running game, I wasn't the best at DPS, AC, Face skills, Combat Maneuvers, etc...but I was good enough at most things to serve the group in several aspects.

Honestly, it depends on the group. If the group absolutely NEEDS some role filled, it might be an issue to not be optimal...but if they're managing fine in the major aspects, a secondary solid character at a few aspects could still be useful.


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graystone wrote:

Ok, a cool feat.

Not exactly: it's only guarantee is you can feed yourself. "A success on your check to Subsist can also reduce the damage dealt by the plane, at the GM’s discretion." Can, not does. Free food isn't too exciting IMO.

Not bad.

But lets get to the point here: you only get ONE of these nifty things at 7th and only for skills you increase. How many skills are getting high enough for these again? maybe 4 skills? Now how many of those awesome skill feats use the same stat? I'm seeing Int, Cha, Wis...

Scratches head... How do any of these impact the ranger? I'm saying the RANGER seems a downgrade. Or are you telling me a ranger should multiclass to get an upgrade?

To be fair, someone keeping their Survival skill up on Proficiency with a decent wisdom will probably manage to find food more often than not. Also, the other part of the feat letting your success reduce damage of said plane is useful.

Also yeah, only one, then two by level 9, three by level 11 (more if you're a Rogue of course). ALso yes, you are limited by what skills you've raised, but there are a lot of solid options I feel. As for stats, the fact that you need to raise four unique stats every single time you hit a stat boost means you're bound to at least have a decent mod in some of them. Also, you're bound to have at least one skill associated with a stat you're good at, like Athletics for the Fighter, Acrobatics if you're rocking a Monk, etc.

Sorry, I misunderstood that part and thought it was a dig at 2e overall.

Alright, Ranger. I've not done much with them in 1e, but I did notice the occasional gem.

Warden's Step at level 10 single-handedly makes group stealth viable in natural environments, terrible group stealth can be so frustrating when you're particularly stealthy. In the same vein, Camouflage to sneak even when being observed is particularly useful. Swift Tracker letting you move towards your target as a free action if you did Survival could also be quite useful for a more melee-focused Ranger. Stealth and Survival are definitely two skills that are supported by the class.

Not a feat, but the degree to which Flurry lowers MAP is also quite valuable. It can be hard to justify the -10/-8 with agile third attack on a lot of foes, but -6/-4 with agile? Much more viable, and the degree to which it lowers later is insane.


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graystone wrote:
Mewzard wrote:
But is it really a downgrade?
*nods* Yes. If you have to point to 16th or 19th level abilities, it's not impressing me as upgrade material. How about tell me what the upgrades are from levels 1 to 15? Because I spend most of my time in the 1 - 12 range so it the wonderful upgrades are all 16+, it's not sounding so good to me.

I mean, endgame martials actually feeling like they could be godly heroes is important, but fine, some earlier stuff, let's try some stuff from Master Proficiency, starting around level 7:

Being so skilled at stealth you can hide from all forms of senses (Tremorsense no more), so adept at surviving that you can survive on planes of existence that shouldn't be able to support you due to a lack of food and avoid the harm such planes cause, be so good at Deception that you can deceive magical means to read your mind, tell if you're lying, or detect your alignment.

Hell, by this point, Quick Repair lets you fix an entire broke item in three actions, you can heal up to four people at a time with Ward Medic, and feed up to 16 people with Forager (double on a Crit Success).

If you want to talk classes:

A Fighter could take Sudden Leap for a massively high Jump (up to double their speed depending upon what DC they can beat) and strike with two actions at level 8, and at level 10 combine it with Felling Strike to down a flying foe with just one more action.

A Monk could take Ki Blast at 6th level for up to a 60 foot cone and 4d6 damage with some knockback, which scales up every single spell level. Wild Winds Initiate gives the Monk a ranged stance that also gives a bit of ranged defense and ignores cover. Sleeper Hold at 10th level gives them an excellent option to knock a foe out right away

If you're going into Wild Shape, I'd argue 2e's given a lot of great options for it given the wide variety you can add to your options. The Bard being able to add their level to every untrained skill at level 8 is basically like getting skill points for everything in the list, and I rather like their 4th level Metamagic feat Melodious Spell. Forget Still and Silent Spell, they might have never noticed you casted a spell if your performance check is high enough.

Honestly, I like a lot of what 2e's got going for it.


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Claxon wrote:

Yeah, they made things real hard choices about what you want to excel at instead of giving you everything for free.

Yes characters are less powerful in PF2 and have a smaller suite of abilities at their command.

This is all intentional.

This is part and parcel to why I haven't committed to switching to PF2. I plan to play a one shot or maybe a short scenario to see how I feel about it, but I definitely feel "downgraded" in comparison to PF1.

But is it really a downgrade? I don't recall being given an option to casually Jump over a hundred feet in the air, trip the largest monsters in the game, fall from orbit without a scratch, run full speed through a gap about the size of your head as if you were a Pillar Man, survive all extremes of temperature without food and water with no harm, steal the literal armor off the back of a man, scowl at someone so hard they literally die...all things without magic, just with pure physical/mental skill. Like, one feat and going Legendary in Athletics is all it takes to get either a full climb or swim speed equal to your speed (your Monk is a damn speedboat at this point).

That's not even counting stuff like the Ranger's 20th level ability to track their target pretty much anywhere, even through teleportation/planar travel if they're Legendary in Nature. Or the Rogue's 20th level ability to be so stealthy, you go so absolutely invisible that not even glitterdust, see invisibility, etc help find you.

Even casters get 10th level spells. Turning into the Avatar of your god, or a literal Kaiju. Hell, upcasting Earthquake makes it damage a quarter-mile burst up to half a mile away. That'd devastate a town.

Even ignoring 10th level spells, True Shapeshifting is an insane capstone for the Wild Shaping Druid. Bards can rock a Haste Cantrip in Allegro, Wizards can give themselves spell slots to combine two spells into one (sometimes you just want to double Disintegrate someone), I mean, the list goes on and on.

I can't really say I feel particularly downgraded here. Especially with Martials, but even with Casters.


The Dex/Cha boosts of the Goblin do support a Bard as an option, which don't have to be comic relief if you don't want them to.

An Enigma Muse can allow you access to Bardic Lore, which lets you make Recall Knowledge checks on everything. You think your smart? This Goblin went to Bard College. Polymath Muse meanwhile can get Versatile Performance, letting you use Performance in place of Diplomacy, Deception, and Intimidation for certain actions. You could always do both later.

The mix of full Spellcasting, skilling options (Eclectic Skill lets you add your level to all untrained skills), and some fantastic Composition Cantrips (Allegro is a Cantrip Haste, definitely worth grabbing), you can be quite the asset to the team in and out of the battle.

You don't have to be a singing or instrument Bard either. You could Act out a scene, use Oration to tell stories, Dance your way across the battlefield, it's up to you.

Honestly considering something along these lines for my first character.


Paradozen wrote:
So if you attack them or make noise or shake them they wake up. And are neither prone not disarmed.

Would the target fall if you used it on a flying foe? Could be a way to hit someone with falling damage and getting high enemies down to the ground, as a Monk with Quick Jump/Cloud Jump and a high movement speed could easily jump around 100 feet or so with like 2 actions (especially if you take options that increase your jumping distance).


A Monk should be able to get Legendary Athletics easily, meaning you'll have a high roll for the grapple checks. Flurry of Maneuvers will let you do both Grapples in one action, and Titan Wrestler will let you use Sleeper Hold on pretty much any creature in the game.

Want to put that Dragon in a Sleeper Hold? Incapacitation doesn't count as sleep, so it's not immune (though, it's only going to work on a monster of equal or lesser level, as stronger monsters fare one step better against Incapacitation effects).

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