Organized Play Table Adjustments

Friday, August 21, 2020

“I can’t do it, Gorm,” Ambrus says, straddling his chair and leaning over his desk to get a better view of the myriad logistical reports scattered across it. “I can’t justify putting our most experienced agents out in the field without so much as a briefing. We train our people to have good judgement, but this… This is too much.”

Ambrus Valsin

Ambrus slumps into his chair scratching a muttonchop with calloused fingers while waiting for his comrade’s response.

“You won’t find me disagreeing with you,” Gorm replies. “It’s a hard thing, knowing where to send our best talent, and how to get them there prepared to face the kinds of things we Pathfinders are bound to face. Besides, if we tried something that reckless, Fola would drag us both outside by our ears and thrash us one by one while making the other watch so they know what’s coming for them! And she’d be right to do it.” Scratching his belly under his vest, Gorm’s hand suddenly comes away holding a frothing mug, which he quickly downs. “A scotch might be better right about now,” he mutters, before raising his head to look Ambrus directly in the eyes. “I suppose we need to let those three know they’re on their own, eh?”

Ambrus releases a breath he hadn’t meant to hold and reaches for the pen that will magically convey his message across the Inner Sea to the waiting party of Pathfinder agents whose request for backup had set the tone for this pensive afternoon.

“You want me to write ‘em?” Gorm asks, eyes brimming with sympathy for both Ambrus and the waiting agents whose request for aid the steward was about to deny.

“No, they deserve to hear it from me,” Ambrus says. “I put them there, I won’t let anyone else be the one to tell them that they need to find their own way to a safe evacuation point.” Ambrus pauses for a moment, and then glances at Gorm with a pleading and apologetic look in his eyes. “But maybe do me one favor? Go grab me one of Arvya’s muffins from the kitchen and bring back a carafe of coffee. It’s going to be a long afternoon.”



Hello everyone!

It’s been a long, hectic couple months, but I think overall, they’ve been good. We got the Achievement Point system up for Pathfinder Second Edition, loaded with boons and ready for use! Sanctioning for the Advanced Player’s Guide beat the book to your eyes by a couple weeks, and Lost Omens Legends followed quick behind, along with a wave of new iconic pregenerated characters! The last batch of level 5 pregens will be releasing very soon, with Seoni, Seelah, Harsk, Sajan, Lem, and Lini leveling up to join the ranks of their compatriots.

As we worked through the tasks of creating pregens, a couple years ago for Starfinder and over the last year for Pathfinder (second edition), the team made some fundamental decisions about the place of pregens at the table. We evaluated our own experiences and reviewed feedback from the Pathfinder (first) edition campaign, as well as solicited feedback from volunteer coordinators and GMs. After much consideration, the team decided that releasing level 7 or 9 pregens held more drawbacks than benefits and that we would not produce pregens at higher levels for either campaign. As a result of the decision not to include 7th level or higher pregens, we are making some program-wide changes regarding legal table limits and the use of pregenerated characters at tables. The following rules take effect immediately and will be included in future iterations of the Guide to Organized Play for each campaign.

For tables at levels that have pregens available. GMs can now run up to two pregenerated characters to fill a table up to the four-person minimum. The GM can control these pregens themselves or designate one or more players to control the additional character(s), so long as the player agrees to do so. This should help our smaller lodges and Society home groups participate in our program and continue firing and reporting games.

For higher level Pathfinder (second edition) play:

  • In Level 7+ adventures, we are reducing the minimum number of players to three. This opens up a “hard mode” playthrough experience that should be satisfying, though we want to caution you that, as the adventures are designed for a minimum of four players, they will be more difficult than normal. To play with three players, add Challenge Points for a hypothetical fourth player as follows:

    • Groups of three players whose total Challenge Points are less than 12 add 2 to their Challenge Point total to determine their final Challenge Point scaling and encounter adjustments, winding up in the adventure’s lower level range.

    • Groups of three whose total Challenge Points are 12 or higher add 4 Challenge Points to their total value to determine their final Challenge Point scaling and encounter adjustments, winding up in the adventure’s higher-level range.

The first Level 7-10 scenario won’t release until June, so those of you getting ready to play at that level range can begin to plan accordingly, and those of you out there who only have two players can begin filling the remaining two seats with pregens and reporting your games.

For higher level Starfinder play:

  • For levels that go above 8th (the current highest level of our pregenerated characters), we’ll be allowing groups to play with a 3-player minimum. Note, these smaller table sizes are strictly for players who willingly play expecting that the adventure will be harder. As with other instances of hard mode, all players at a table need to opt into the hard mode before starting the game.

  • These 3-player adjustments offer no additional scaling (beyond the already existing 4-player adjustment) and do not grant extra rewards... well... except for the obvious bragging rights! I for one can’t wait to see how well a group of 3 PCs handles the higher-level range in Rise of the Vault Lord!

As with all program changes, we will evaluate them over the next few months to see if they are helping us achieve our aim, which is getting more games to successfully occur. We will keep an eye on this thread in upcoming months for feedback on these changes.

Have a good one everyone, and until next time- Explore! Report! Cooperate!

Michael Sayre
Pathfinder Society Developer

Thurston Hillman
Starfinder Society Developer

Tonya Woldridge
Organized Play Manager

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Organized Play Pathfinder Society Starfinder Society
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5/5 *****

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Huzzah, did I, did I beat Toz?

5/5 *****

One quick question, does the reference to 7+ in higher level 2E scenarios just refer to 7-10 scenarios when we start to see them or to players in the high tier of a 5-8 as well?

Horizon Hunters **

Nice decisions all around. It should also help newer players join pre-existing lodges and not be able to play any of the backlog.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Great news for us smaller lodges!

It was disappointing when we'd show up for a game and 2 players would no-call/no-show forcing the GM and other 2 players that did show up to pack up and go home.

Paizo Employee 4/5 **

This is only for level 7+ adventures, so you can't do it for a tier 5-8 scenario with three level 8 PCs?

Dark Archive 5/5 5/55/5 *** Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well it would be nice if the solution to the 3-player table would be something that is not a hardmode, as this leaves the players in a bind, if they are not that comfortable with the extra challange:
Either they suck it up cause they want to play or they speak up and noone gets to play (which might lead to peer pressure)

Sovereign Court 4/5 * Organized Play Manager

4 people marked this as a favorite.

There is a pregen available in 5-8, so you would use the pregen. Even though it is a lower level. So the change only applies to scenarios of 7+ level. (I changed the text and apologize for the confusion. I was pre-empting the addition of 9-12 scenarios, but didn't think of the effect of the change on 5-8).

Second Seekers (Jadnura) 5/55/55/55/5

Good to see these changes!

1/5 *

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Dustin Knight wrote:
This is only for level 7+ adventures, so you can't do it for a tier 5-8 scenario with three level 8 PCs?

3 level 8s would take along a level 5 pregen. They'd be high subtier, so the pregen would get a level bump, and presumably some Mentor boons besides. Unless I'm missing something.

Edit: Tonya beat me to it my a mile.

5/5 *****

Tonya Woldridge wrote:
There is a pregen available in 5-8, so you would use the pregen. Even though it is a lower level. So the change only applies to scenarios of 7+ level. (I changed the text and apologize for the confusion. I was pre-empting the addition of 9-12 scenarios, but didn't think of the effect of the change on 5-8).

Thanks for that.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Darn, I was really hoping we would finally get the SFS guide update today.

EDIT: To be clear, I am happy for the people that this change helps.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 **

This is fantastic news! Thanks guys.

It almost takes the sting off the news that we won't be getting 7-10 content for another ~ 10 months. =(

Sovereign Court 4/5 * Organized Play Manager

2 people marked this as a favorite.
graywulfe wrote:
Darn, I was really hoping we would finally get the SFS guide update today.

We had a hiccup that is mostly resolved and we hope to have it in hands next week.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Tonya Woldridge wrote:
graywulfe wrote:
Darn, I was really hoping we would finally get the SFS guide update today.
We had a hiccup that is mostly resolved and we hope to have it in hands next week.

Thank you for the update. It is much appreciated.

5/5 ***

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The changes to legitimate tables will really help get more games up and running where I play so that is very welcome.

You also mention you had the Achivement point system up and running but I can't seem to find it.

4/5 *** Venture-Agent, Utah

Holy crap! This is big news!

Also, seems to be a convenient place as any to mention this, since we’re talking pregens:
The level 5 Quinn pregen is incorrectly made; it seems to disregard that investigators get a skill increase every level like rogues do, so Quinn only has one expert skill at that level when he should potentially have four.

Sovereign Court 4/5 ** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Southwest

I feel like I'm asking a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway.

You specifically point out PF2 and SFS. Does the smaller table size (running with 2 players and 2 pregens) affect PF1 as well?

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Big news indeed and definitely good to know.

My apologies for the potentially stupid question but does this new pregen rule apply to First Edition as well or only Second Edition and Starfinder Society?

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jon-Enee Merriex wrote:

I feel like I'm asking a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway.

You specifically point out PF2 and SFS. Does the smaller table size (running with 2 players and 2 pregens) affect PF1 as well?

I am so glad I am not the only one that had that question!!


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

That's genuinely going to be a huge benefit for my Org Starfinder games!

Dark Archive 3/5 5/55/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Jasper

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Added bonus, with tables being able to fire now, other people in the store will see the game being played and potentially want to join.

4/5 *** Venture-Agent, Utah

1 person marked this as a favorite.

May I ask how you guys came to the conclusion of not creating level 7+ pregens going forward?

Something one of the people in my lodge brought up is that fewer pregens makes fewer chances for new players to play, or even regular players (one of the things brought up was “if my highest-level character dies then I literally can’t play with the rest of you guys. And I flat-out refuse to do hard mode because the PF2 combats are hard enough as it is”). Basically, the overall concern is that while this decision will help lower-tier tables go off, it’ll hinder higher-tier tables from going off.

Grand Lodge 4/5

5 people marked this as a favorite.

My experience is that high tier scenarios suck for new players and are better suited to the dedicated players who have actual characters in tier, who have a vested interest in making those tables go off. They also are poor choices for all but the biggest cons with the highest draw of experienced players. Not having pregens is an organic fence to keep newer players towards the low tier tables.

4/5 *** Venture-Agent, Utah

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
My experience is that high tier scenarios suck for new players

Could you elaborate on that a bit more? Trying to understand the entirety of the situation.

Grand Lodge 4/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Less engagement with the story, having to learn a LOT of rules at once, having your character chosen for you by whoever wrote the pregen. And of course the problem with players showing up with their drow gunslinger they rolled at 8th level and having to force them to play the gunslinger pregen instead. 2E May have fixed some of this, but apparently not to the OP teams liking.

2/5 5/5 **

5 people marked this as a favorite.

I had a 6 person walk-up to my high level multi-table special table at GenCon all but one using 7th level pregens, and it was an all around miserable experience as players read through all of their options (despite my urging, they too advanced classes like gunslinger and hunter) each turn, I had to explain complex rules interactions frequently, and basically only surviving because we couldn't get past round 2 in any combat before the advancement bell.

I am in favor of limiting pregen level.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ***** Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jon-Enee Merriex wrote:

I feel like I'm asking a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway.

You specifically point out PF2 and SFS. Does the smaller table size (running with 2 players and 2 pregens) affect PF1 as well?

I'm also on board with you on this!

Quote:
As a result of the decision not to include 7th level or higher pregens, we are making some program-wide changes regarding legal table limits and the use of pregenerated characters at tables.

Emphasis mine. I'm really hoping "program-wide" translates as including PF1. It still has a loyal following around here, but it's sometimes hard to get seeker-level games together!

1/5 5/5

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

My concern with this announcement are these:

With a reduction to 'minimum' to Three, but 'Hard Mode', there will be some
concerns and/or issues....

Players (and/or GMs) deliberately setting up tables for three players which would reduce the chance of play for new players.

Players (and/or GMs) 'forcing' someone who does not want to play 'Hard Mode' into playing 'Hard Mode' because 'Oh, dear, we don't have enough players. You still want to play your character, right? Oh, and these other two players took such efforts to be here... you don't want to let them down, do you?"

While the mechanical understandings of bandwidth and resource devotion for a living campaign are important, it's also important to note that for a while when I first started playing PFS1, the *only* play opportunities I'd get locally were by playing L7 pregens in higher-tier scenarios.

It could even be argued that it was one of the only things that kept me playing the first couple of years after I joined PFS(1).

If Organized Play chases away prospective players because of this sort of lack of play opportunity, it cannot help the various campaigns -- or Organized Play's reputation.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

2 people marked this as a favorite.

For the level 7+ PF2 - if they're already down to 3 players of an expected 4, isn't that hardmode enough? Why penalize them further with the CP boost?

Grand Lodge 4/5

I’m not sure how the CP setup works, but if you’re missing a whole fourth PC, wouldn’t your CP total be well below the normal, such that it would never trigger an increase? The extra CP could be there to counter that.

2/5 ****

4 people marked this as a favorite.
James Anderson wrote:
For the level 7+ PF2 - if they're already down to 3 players of an expected 4, isn't that hardmode enough? Why penalize them further with the CP boost?

Because without that, two level 9 characters and on level 10 in a 7-10 adventure would only have 14 CP, which would be low tier. That probably would be more like easy mode instead of hard mode.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

1 person marked this as a favorite.

A very welcome change, that should help some of the smaller lodges.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

I think these changes are great!

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

There's a basic assumption that characters will be 'worth their CP'.

I've been at several tables in PFS1 where the majority of the characters at the table were.... suboptimal at best.

At one point a GM offered to run me and some friends with three and an option to pick up a pregen. After we nearly wiped in a first fight situation purely on dice hate, the GM immediately gave us the pregen and shook their heads.

"I don't understand how you could get handled by a bunch of L1 characters when you're L3 and L4"

While it might help some tables fire, having a preponderance of character death and increased lethality may not be the best route for the campaign.

Usual disclaimers about mileage, etc apply here.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

"I am reminded of that time where we were entangled with some elves, and some sorcerer decided that casting flare repeatedly was the best thing that he could do. I sent so many horses to their death that day."
First time player, with the level 7 sorcerer pregen, playing up in Even Entanglement. Only thing that saved my character was a wand of Mount, which was used to distract the first challenge

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

No rules are going to be perfect for every situation. As indicated this change was the result of experiences described by the community and discussed by the VOs with the campaign leadership. So while this will not be ideal for every lodge, it’s assumed it will be an improvement for most. Everyone else will need to continue to do what they have always done—make adjustments as necessary to maximize the experience of your local community. I’m sure that if this change does not produce the expected results, it’ll be modified or withdrawn in the future.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I guess this means people can stop emailing me to play Emerald Spire with them.

I've "played through" those last few Levels so many times that my name should appear in the credits.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Players (and/or GMs) 'forcing' someone who does not want to play 'Hard Mode' into playing 'Hard Mode' because 'Oh, dear, we don't have enough players. You still want to play your character, right? Oh, and these other two players took such efforts to be here... you don't want to let them down, do you?"

"If you had asked nicely, instead of trying to intimidate me, I might have said 'okay', but given the way you've asked, I'm going to say 'nope, see ya'".


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

the GM immediately gave us the pregen and shook their heads.

Is your GM an ettin? Or a hydra? :-)

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville

Jon-Enee Merriex wrote:

I feel like I'm asking a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway.

You specifically point out PF2 and SFS. Does the smaller table size (running with 2 players and 2 pregens) affect PF1 as well?

I also want to confirm this as well.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/55/5 *

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber
KingTreyIII wrote:

May I ask how you guys came to the conclusion of not creating level 7+ pregens going forward?

Something one of the people in my lodge brought up is that fewer pregens makes fewer chances for new players to play, or even regular players (one of the things brought up was “if my highest-level character dies then I literally can’t play with the rest of you guys. And I flat-out refuse to do hard mode because the PF2 combats are hard enough as it is”). Basically, the overall concern is that while this decision will help lower-tier tables go off, it’ll hinder higher-tier tables from going off.

There is an opportunity for higher level PCs to be brought back if they die. It is called the Resurrection Plan.

"Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Players (and/or GMs) deliberately setting up tables for three players which would reduce the chance of play for new players.

This was already a possibility. Not much has changed as for opportunity here. Plus, that is a choice for both players and GMs. Not all games have to be open to the public.

"Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Players (and/or GMs) 'forcing'...

That is a whole other problem about bullying that should be resolved. On top of that, since the realization of online tables, I have never been wanting for either players nor tables to play at. If you're concerned about your local group not having enough people, then take the games online. If you don't like that solution, that is fine. But do note that not liking a solution doesn't stop it from being a solution.


KingTreyIII wrote:

Holy crap! This is big news!

Also, seems to be a convenient place as any to mention this, since we’re talking pregens:

Spoiler:
The level 5 Quinn pregen is incorrectly made; it seems to disregard that investigators get a skill increase every level like rogues do, so Quinn only has one expert skill at that level when he should potentially have four.

About your comment about the Quinn pregen:

Spoiler:
Agreed. I wonder if when we play the level 5 pregen Quinn we can just choose 4 more skills to be expert. I think I am going to do so, after talking to the GM, of course. Quinn gets the one expert skill from the Skilled human heritage. So, he is missing all 4 of the expert skills from levels 2 through 5. He should have 5 total at level 5.

Is there a ruling about fixing an egregious error when playing one of the new pregens?

5/5 *****

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The general rule is to play the pregen as it is.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Hillis Mallory III wrote:
Jon-Enee Merriex wrote:

I feel like I'm asking a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway.

You specifically point out PF2 and SFS. Does the smaller table size (running with 2 players and 2 pregens) affect PF1 as well?

I also want to confirm this as well.

Given all the clearly stated 'this is for Pathfinder 2E' and 'this is for Starfinder' statements in the blog, I don't understand why anyone would think it would apply to 1E.

Quote:
The following rules take effect immediately and will be included in future iterations of the Guide to Organized Play for each campaign.

The Season Ten guide hasn't been updated since 2E's release and doesn't seem likely to be any time soon.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Gorm wrote:
“A scotch might be better right about now,”

So the Pathfinders use the Hao Jin Tapestry to sneak onto Earth and nab their whisky, eh?

*

I'm curious: Why have scenarios above level 6 been put off for an entire year?

2/5 **** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

Saint Bernard de Clairveaux wrote:
I'm curious: Why have scenarios above level 6 been put off for an entire year?

There are three 5-8 scenarios published already.

4/5 ****

Saint Bernard de Clairveaux wrote:
I'm curious: Why have scenarios above level 6 been put off for an entire year?

We have 5-8s.

That's no 7-10s until later.

4/5 *** Venture-Agent, Utah

Astrael wrote:
KingTreyIII wrote:

Holy crap! This is big news!

Also, seems to be a convenient place as any to mention this, since we’re talking pregens: ** spoiler omitted **

About your comment about the Quinn pregen:

** spoiler omitted **

Is there a ruling about fixing an egregious error when playing one of the new pregens?

andreww wrote:
The general rule is to play the pregen as it is.

Yeah, the general rule applies (I'm pretty sure the 1e Lem pregen is super incorrectly built, if memory serves, but we still had to play it as written); that's why I was bringing it up, so that maybe someone at Paizo could fix it so that anyone playing Quinn wouldn't have to play a flat-out incorrect character.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Most of the time, Pregen errors were in their favor.

1E Amriri had two Combat Traits, 1E Lem had an illegal potion, and SFS's Iseph has an extra +3 to Trick Attack.

If Quinn really is missing 4 skill increases (I haven't looked myself), then I'd let a player choose them, but wouldn't fault a GM for ruling the opposite at their table.

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