Pathfinder News From PaizoCon Online

Keirine, Human Rogue wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

When has mass combat ever been required or particularly desired in Pathfinder outside of narrow custom AP scenarios?

It is a traditional D&D trope that high-level characters start settling down and build a stronghold, from which they engage in more political adventures. Mass combat is a part of that trope. It might not be to everyone's tastes (particularly if you also consider the trope's colonialist roots), but it's been part of the game for ages.

Unless I'm mistaken, that hasn't been a thing for at least 20 years. It was kind of a thing in AD&D2e, but even then it was relegated to handbooks and very very very lightly touched on in the main rule books. I think by 2.5 they had gotten rid of it all together.

You still had rules for Henchmen and Followers, but the whole Domain ruling Mass Combat system hasn't really been a thing since... well, I remember it in the Dungeons and Dragons Companion Set (the green box), but that's about it.

Of course, all of this means I'm old, so there's a fair chance I missed it in some core rulebook somewhere. But I'm pretty sure it's always been regulated to some side product.

Wasn't it a major component (or, at least, the ruling fiefdom aspect of it) in the Birthright Campaign Setting?

(Maybe I'm misremembering... AD&D2ed was a weird - but fun! - thing I'd 'inherited', so...)

Carry on,

--C.

I can't say you're wrong, I don't remember the Birthright Setting all that well. I remember your character getting access to certain powers and abilities based on which line they were from, and that's about it.

Erik Mona wrote:

James Jacobs and I have added about 20 additional locations to the manuscript (the city now has a temple for every core god, for example).

o_o...even LAMASHTU and URGATHOA? I mean, good for those gods and all that jazz but one would think civilized society would at least frown on a temple dedicated to a goddess of insanity and birthing monsters as well as a goddess of disease and undeath. Of course, I'm assuming those temples are legal and not hidden from the public (and the Absolom city guard).

One of the heads of the council is a follower of Urgathoa.

Did the fox always have this many tails?

Did the fox always have this many tails?

Ever since it got into the chicken coop. Chickens are worth a lot of EXP, turns out.

Xenocrat wrote:

When has mass combat ever been required or particularly desired in Pathfinder outside of narrow custom AP scenarios?

It is a traditional D&D trope that high-level characters start settling down and build a stronghold, from which they engage in more political adventures. Mass combat is a part of that trope. It might not be to everyone's tastes (particularly if you also consider the trope's colonialist roots), but it's been part of the game for ages.

I dont see that as colonial roots so much as feudal ones, becoming a lord and being given a parcel of land is how it was described originally.

How many of the uncommon ancestries in the book will be available in PFS2 without a Boon?

Curious about this, too. I would hope that the popular races that were available in 1st Edition won't require spending AcP, especially now that goblins are common.

Requiring an appropriate Home Region boon seems fair.

Just please stop making short books. 160 pages full price is not something most people look forward too.

Just please stop making short books. 160 pages full price is not something most people look forward too.

A 320 page book ain’t gonna be half price.

lex_dm wrote:

Just please stop making short books. 160 pages full price is not something most people look forward too.

A 320 page book ain’t gonna be half price.

Honestly, that's fine if you ask me. I tend to agree with lex here, I want fewer books per year, but I want them ALL to be quality hardcovers that are 300 pages each. If this means I have to spend more on the bigger books that's fine.

I just never want to see the Pathfinder Chronicles and Companion type style of having a constant stream of softcovers that are smaller than most real-estate magazines again.

Just please stop making short books. 160 pages full price is not something most people look forward too.

In addition to stuff like inflation and Pathfinder being no longer economically in the place it was in 2014, Paizo has apparently started valuing the written word a bit more than it used to. Get used to the prices, they're not going to change.

160 page hardcovers are fine by me! Any smaller or built as softcovers and I might have to reconsider.

Longer books are always fun though. :)

lex_dm wrote:

Just please stop making short books. 160 pages full price is not something most people look forward too.

In addition to stuff like inflation and Pathfinder being no longer economically in the place it was in 2014, Paizo has apparently started valuing the written word a bit more than it used to. Get used to the prices, they're not going to change.

I'm wanting more content out of full price, not cheaper books.

Just so we're all clear: all three of the Lost Omens books released so far are 136 pages each (140 if you count the coloured pages that are extensions of the interior cover*) -- not 160 pages...

--C.

<edit> * Do these 'guard pages' have a specific term?

Wasn't it a major component (or, at least, the ruling fiefdom aspect of it) in the Birthright Campaign Setting?

(Maybe I'm misremembering... AD&D2ed was a weird - but fun! - thing I'd 'inherited', so...)

Carry on,

--C.

Yeah, it was the main selling point of Birthright. The box said something like "You can either play as regular folks, or as blooded* folks who aren't rulers, or as blooded folks who are rulers."

* Blooded meaning you are descended from someone who was present when the old gods died and were replaced by new ones, and thus have some special powers and the ability to interface with the ruling mechanics.

But seriously, what's the point of playing in that setting if you're not going to be a ruler? That's like buying a Ferrari and never taking it out on proper roads.

I know Birthright had rules for mass combat, but I'm not sure if they involved actual board-gaming stuff or if it was more abstract along the lines of the War Machine back in the Companion set. I think there were cards involved somehow.

Gorbacz wrote:

lex_dm wrote:

Just please stop making short books. 160 pages full price is not something most people look forward too.

In addition to stuff like inflation and Pathfinder being no longer economically in the place it was in 2014, Paizo has apparently started valuing the written word a bit more than it used to. Get used to the prices, they're not going to change.

I'm wanting more content out of full price, not cheaper books.

What does "full price" even mean then?

Are you expecting bigger books for the same price, or would you be okay with bigger books that are also more expensive?

What does "full price" even mean then?

To add to this question: and if "full price" doesn't mean around 20 or 30 cents per page to you... why doesn't it?

I'll be honest, in my old age sitting down to read a 400 page RPG book all the way through is a bit of a slog. The 128 page books are more digestible, but less disposable than the old 32 page Player's Companions.

The 250ish range is probably the sweet spot, but smaller topics should get smaller books and larger topics should get larger books.

I dont see that as colonial roots so much as feudal ones, becoming a lord and being given a parcel of land is how it was described originally.

Feudalism is more of a bottom-up large-scale protection racket, with a veneer of nobility over it. It is a series of mutual obligations where folks with more military power demand service of those with less, but which is mostly based on an established order. The serf works for the knight, who works for the baron, who works for the count, who works for the king. But the power here starts at the bottom: the baron holds power because he commands the service of several knights. He is not given power by the count or the king.

Game of Thrones is a fairly good example of this. Power flows upward. The Starks have power because they have the support of lower-ranking nobles. When Rob Stark loses that support because he comes into conflict with one of his stronger supporters, house Karstark, he loses power (and eventually his life).

Colonialism is more top-down, and generally involves a change. You send off forces to a "new" land that doesn't have any people in it, or at least not people you consider to be people, and take it for yourself. The people who go off to do so usually do so in the name of their superiors, and can in theory be removed by those superiors (though that might not always be successful).

The traditional mid-to-high-level D&D game usually leans more toward the latter. You have made a Name for yourself (which is why 9th level or thereabouts was called Name level back then), and the king "rewarded" you by sending you off to the frontier to go forth and conquer (and stop making trouble at the local level).

Regarding the "short books" comment. It's worth noting that the "short" books we're publishing are double the size of what we used to publish in the campaign setting line, but also between last year and this year we're also publishing the two LONGEST books we've ever done—Core Rulebook and the Kingmaker Adventure Path compilation.

If what you are actually asking for is longer Lost Omens books... we'll be doing that too soon with the 300+ page Absalom book due out later this year.

From where I'm sitting, the amount of pages we're doing per year has increased, is what I'm saying. We're producing the amount of pages we can given our situation, in other words.

I never cared for the softcover campaign settings books myself. I am happy the Lost Omens books are hard cover. Bigger would be nicer, but Paizo has to let their writers sleep once every month or so. :)

I would definitely prefer longer lost omens books which are definitely a little on the too short side.

Call me weird but I actually kinda like the shorter books? At least, I found Character Guide and World Guide to both be very... digestible. More detailed than the tiny softcovers that came before, but not so huge that I feel like sitting down with them is a massive undertaking.

Four books of this length per year, plus the possibility of one being longer, is a really great amount of content. Plus the Lost Omens books are packaged and designed really terrifically, and they look wonderful on my shelf. I wouldn't have subscribed if I didn't really feel like this is a really nice value--and by now Lost Omens is probably my favorite subscription I have.

Regarding the "short books" comment. It's worth noting that the "short" books we're publishing are double the size of what we used to publish in the campaign setting line, but also between last year and this year we're also publishing the two LONGEST books we've ever done—Core Rulebook and the Kingmaker Adventure Path compilation.

If what you are actually asking for is longer Lost Omens books... we'll be doing that too soon with the 300+ page Absalom book due out later this year.

From where I'm sitting, the amount of pages we're doing per year has increased, is what I'm saying. We're producing the amount of pages we can given our situation, in other words.

Expert > Master

Call me weird but I actually kinda like the shorter books? At least, I found Character Guide and World Guide to both be very... digestible. More detailed than the tiny softcovers that came before, but not so huge that I feel like sitting down with them is a massive undertaking.

I think it depends a lot about the book. My take on the LOWG was "man, I wanted more of every part of that" but the LOCG and Gods and Magic got in, did the job, then got out without overstaying their welcome.

Between what was in the original Kingmaker AP and all the extra stuff in the new Kingmaker 2e (which I backed), there is a lot being added. A lot more than what would fit in a single campaign play-through! And a lot easily reflavored/refluffed to fit anywhere on the Inner Sea, beyond, or a homebrew setting. Could even be mixed with Age of Ashes with how the first AP module plays out. Or your motely crew could be charged with maintaining an area against the Whispering Tyrant. Or the Bard talked his way into marrying into a tribe or feudal settlement and then after an incident ends up in charge. Endless possibilities! But yeah, mass battle rules are handy when nations go to war, whether the players are in charge of that nation or not.

Do these 'guard pages' have a specific term?

Endpaper.

We'll see where we're at in 2021, which (unlike 2020 or 2019) does not have us producing a super complicated 640 page hardcover book. In theory, that'll let us do more adventures and the like; it'll probably be the first year of the 2nd edition era that'll be "normal" for us. :-P

Regarding the "short books" comment. It's worth noting that the "short" books we're publishing are double the size of what we used to publish in the campaign setting line, but also between last year and this year we're also publishing the two LONGEST books we've ever done—Core Rulebook and the Kingmaker Adventure Path compilation.

If what you are actually asking for is longer Lost Omens books... we'll be doing that too soon with the 300+ page Absalom book due out later this year.

From where I'm sitting, the amount of pages we're doing per year has increased, is what I'm saying. We're producing the amount of pages we can given our situation, in other words.

Fair enough. I guess campaign books in context are larger than the softcover ones they used to make. The Absalom book sounds too big (contradicting myself).

I would just like for character options to have a bit more content, the Lost Omens' Character Option was short, as was the Starfinder's Operation's Manual.

But APG sounds good! And I got in the Kingmaker crowdfunding so I'm excited about the crazy amount of value that has :)

Thank you for the reply.

The fact that there's not as much character options out today is a result of the edition's age. Each book we publish will expand that, without removing the previous options. We'll get there, but only if we publish at a rate we can responsibly maintain.

Psiphyre wrote:

Do these 'guard pages' have a specific term?

Endpaper.

Thank you!

Carry on,

--C.

Regarding mass combat rules, I would actually like to see other alternatives for resolving mass combat, that don't require playing out the combat itself. Some of my favorite examples are things Paizo folks wrote prior to Pathfinder 1st edition.

Like in the Red Hand of Doom, where (if I'm remembering correctly) you spend actions working on the defensive plan for the city, and your success in the prep-work determines the outcome of the battle. Or the arrival at the colony on the Isle of Dread in the Savage Tide adventure path, where the PCs participate in a series of skirmishes that determine the outcome - for a Mass Combat, this could be a few specific skirmishes that shift the tide of the entire battle.

Wouldn't that be something like the Victory Points system from the GMG?

Just take the framework of that and add on to it for your specific purpose?

Wouldn't that be something like the Victory Points system from the GMG?

Just take the framework of that and add on to it for your specific purpose?

This.

And maybe base the Challenge and/or Number of the "Decisive Battle(s)" (which the PCs fight personally) on the outcome of the VP ratios!

I believe Victory Points was how they suggested things be done in 3.5's Ultimate Battle. I built a campaign around it (which I didn't think out well, as the players blundered between most of the encounters I planned out.), so I remember it pretty well. If you have the book, it gives some excellent ideas of how to do a military campaign in that fashion, so I'd recommend it even now.

I was just flipping through that book yesterday (was trying to figure out an obscure DM note from 15 years ago that involved a lot of paging through my hardcovers), and yes they did suggest victory points.

But also consider the Starfinder Starship combat rules. What if they made something like that for mass combat, with each character taking the role of an officer and having unique actions they could take each round unique to that role? This could of course still tie into the victory point system, but give a bit more structure for easier adjucating by DMs.

Although I'll admit the "captain" role irks me. I mentally rename it the "Communications" and assume the captain position, if it exists on that particular starship, is whoever the party wants it to be with no special actions. I would favor a similarly decentralized format for an TTRPG mass combat.

page length is really only a concern to me in the sense that many campaign setting books might have been smaller in page number, but were more focused, covering a single nation or region, or a very specific topic. I worry that larger format books might also result in less focused books...rather than 60 something pages devoted to Irrisen, we'll get 160 pages for the sagalands, with each region getting a smaller amount of coverage for instance.

That said, there are some campaign setting books that absolutely could have used more coverage, including some of the more crunch heavy books or books covering a very broad topic, like the Dragon Empires CS book.

MaxAstro wrote:

Call me weird but I actually kinda like the shorter books? At least, I found Character Guide and World Guide to both be very... digestible. More detailed than the tiny softcovers that came before, but not so huge that I feel like sitting down with them is a massive undertaking.

I think it depends a lot about the book. My take on the LOWG was "man, I wanted more of every part of that" but the LOCG and Gods and Magic got in, did the job, then got out without overstaying their welcome.

This is very similar to my own opinion on these books.

That said, I tend to read the books more as PDFs than as physical books (often due to impatience with shipping transit times, or just because I've got them open for reference with my other books or something), which obscures their length somewhat. Every time I actually pick up my physical core rulebook, I'm a little surprised at how huge it is, and every time I pick up one of the LO guides I'm a little surprised they're not bigger, because I remember them having all this interesting stuff.

I'm generally happy with both lines, though. On the surface it is a little nuts that Absalom gets more pages than the "world" but obviously there's 1e Inner Sea World Guide and many other campaign setting books which are largely still relevant for non-mechanical considerations. Big cities are also really rich settings and supposed to be densely packed with interesting stuff, and just really under-represented in RPG materials, and with an entire AP focused on the city, it's extra appropriate. I'm super excited about basically everything that's been announced.

Anyway, I'm obviously happy with the changes in direction Paizo has made with these lines, and as someone who canceled my PF1 campaign setting and player's guides subscription relatively early into PF1's life, I see very little reason to expect I'll cancel the LO subscription while it exists.

And I've said this before elsewhere, but a lot of it is due to Paizo's improved integration of the work from the design and development teams, coupled with the integration of world/ruleset. The idea that the material from the LO setting doesn't have to live separately from the rules, and that something from, say, the LO Character Guide or Ancestry Guide isn't going to be reprinted with fixes in a rulebook line later, makes it just feel like "more Pathfinder" instead of "some books to flesh out the world and maybe give player options if the GM feels extra generous."

Breaking down those kinds of departmental silos is really hard to pull off, even at relatively small organizations, and kudos to Paizo for always continuing to improve.

And I've said this before elsewhere, but a lot of it is due to Paizo's improved integration of the work from the design and development teams, coupled with the integration of world/ruleset. The idea that the material from the LO setting doesn't have to live separately from the rules, and that something from, say, the LO Character Guide or Ancestry Guide isn't going to be reprinted with fixes in a rulebook line later, makes it just feel like "more Pathfinder" instead of "some books to flesh out the world and maybe give player options if the GM feels extra generous."

Breaking down those kinds of departmental silos is really hard to pull off, even at relatively small organizations, and kudos to Paizo for always continuing to improve.

You said this much better than I would have, but I thoroughly agree.

In terms of book length, I find the core rulebook too big for 1 book. Its size makes it unwieldy and the stress on its binding gives it a limited life, I really wish it was 2 books or at least had an option to get as 2 hard covers.

I really like the length of the GMG and Bestiary, to me those are the sweet spot for physical book size.

The Lost Omens books are great, awesome content but I feel the LOWG and LOCG could have been 1 book and it would have been a perfect size and I wouldn't feel like I had to juggle between 2 books to get get through what I feel is closely related material. For example it would be great if all the Hellknight information was together.

That said the quality of the book content is outstanding and I don't mind the price per page or hardcover, Paizo are a business and I don't feel they gouge at all for their content.

I thoroughly enjoy the back-and-forth of:

1) Choosing a place of origin, and evaluating feats / options based on that
or
2) Choosing some feats / options, and evaluating a place of origin based on that

Either way, the idea that the narrative and mechanics are intrinsically linked, feels correct to me.

The vile Antipaladin rears its terrible head once more. Blargh.

Regarding the "short books" comment. It's worth noting that the "short" books we're publishing are double the size of what we used to publish in the campaign setting line, but also between last year and this year we're also publishing the two LONGEST books we've ever done—Core Rulebook and the Kingmaker Adventure Path compilation.

If what you are actually asking for is longer Lost Omens books... we'll be doing that too soon with the 300+ page Absalom book due out later this year.

From where I'm sitting, the amount of pages we're doing per year has increased, is what I'm saying. We're producing the amount of pages we can given our situation, in other words.

I think some of it is basically the feeling that some of the books could have been combined and it would have been more cost efficient, at least on the consumer side. Which say in my case, feels especially true in regards to shipping, since if they do by chance cost the same to ship, would save me even more

I know that while I don't exactly mind the amount I'm spending on Lost Omens in the sense that I can afford to spend it and I objectively enjoy the products, there's at least some frustration when something like the Character Guide and World Guide ($36 dollars a-piece, for 136 pages, in each case- and 72 dollars together for the total 272 pages)

could have been one book with virtually identical content (I'm not sure how many of the pages in each book become unnecessary) but drop their combined cost (I'm thinking of the 256 page books ala the Bestiary 2 and Game Mastery Guide, which clock in at $50 a pop)

But you guys have to live too, and I'm saying what I'm saying with the perception that the cost difference between one 256 page book, and two 136 page books, isn't actually a source of revenue for Paizo (e.g. the combined cost being higher has to do with logistical reasons of them being separate products and prints, rather than you guys just losing money on that difference, if you guys do make money off it, then I think the current model is fine since I know you guys are operating on thin margins anyway.)

Combining books and dropping their prices is also seen as making us work more for less money, so that's not a very attractive option to me.

Combining books and dropping their prices is also seen as making us work more for less money, so that's not a very attractive option to me.

Yeah- that's what my disclaimer was about, I don't want Paizo employees paid any less for their work if that's what the logistics of the situation come down to.

I just wasn't sure how much of the extra charge of selling the content across two books instead of one was absorbed by the cost of the two separate 'print runs' and had considered the possibility the books were being kept intentionally short not to overwhelm the consumer with an intimidating tome, or lower the mental barrier to purchase by reducing the intimidation of a single big sticker (rather than lots of small ones.)

Oh crap, Meyanda's staff is made from her old spiked gauntlet! :0

Oh crap, Meyanda's staff is made from her old spiked gauntlet! :0

Oh, sweet.

Oh crap, Meyanda's staff is made from her old spiked gauntlet! :0

It IS her! :D

Abomination Vaults and Fists of the Ruby Phoenix both sound awesome!

Combining books and dropping their prices is also seen as making us work more for less money, so that's not a very attractive option to me.

If it makes you happy, your shift to hardcovers with the Lost Omens books and splitting them into topical books has actually had me buying them, where I otherwise refuse to purchase soft covers.

Smaller page counts also make them WAY more accessible to recommend to players too. I now have a clear path of reading to recommend to my players with light (CRB section), medium (Lost Omens) and heavy detail (old inner sea hardcovers and companion books).

Same reason I preordered the now delayed dead god's hand actually, happy to purchase hardcovers and support the company.