Potency and Potions

Friday, June 29, 2018

Earlier this week, Logan gave you the skinny on Resonance and how it interacts with some iconic and all-new magic items. If you missed out on Logan's explanation of Resonance, you might want to take a look here before reading on, because we're going to come back to it at the end of the blog. You got how Resonance works? Good. Now forget about it, we're going to talk about weapons instead.

Potency and Properties

Unlike items with the invested trait or ones that you activate, weapons typically require no Resonance to use. You just pick one up and swing (or shoot, or sling, or thrust, or throw), and the magic weapon unleashes its punch, often with potency. Think as a weapon's potency as its "plus" and more. Potency still grants an item bonus to your attack rolls with the weapon, but now it also increases the damage dealt by an additional weapon die for each point of potency bonus. For example, let's say you find a +1 longsword buried in an otyugh's dung heap. Regardless of its current soiling, that weapon grants not only a +1 item bonus to attack rolls, but on a successful hit it deals 2d8 + Strength modifier damage, instead of the standard 1d8 + Strength modifier. A +2 longsword would instead grant a +2 item bonus to attacks and deal 3d8 + Strength modifier damage, and so on.

Of course, potency is only a part of the story. Magic weapons can also have properties. The maximum potency and the number of properties a weapon can have are based on that weapon's quality. Standard weapons can't have potency or properties, while expert-quality weapons can have up to +2 potency and one property. Master-quality weapons can have up to +4 potency and two properties, and legendary weapons can be +5 weapons and have three properties. Sometimes, special materials can affect the number of properties a magic weapon can possess. Since cold iron resists magic, weapons made of cold iron have one fewer property. Conversely, weapons made of highly magical orichalcum can have one additional property, but because the metal is so rare and difficult to work, these weapons must be legendary.

Both potency and property are imbued within a suitable weapon by etching magical runes upon it. Runes can be fairly easily removed or added (assuming the quality of the weapon allows it), and can even be found etched on a runestone, allowing them to be transferred separately from a weapon. Say you just found a handful of weapon property runestones in your adventure. What properties might they be? Well, let's take a look at one of the favorites of good and undead-hating clerics.

Disrupting Rune 5+

Method of Use etched, melee weapon


A disrupting weapon deals extra damage to undead. Undead hit by an attack with a disrupting weapon takes extra positive damage and additional effects on a critical hit.

Type standard; Level 5; Price 150 gp

The weapon deals 1d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Type greater; Level 15 (Uncommon), Price 6,200 gp

The weapon deals 2d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead creature must attempt a DC 32 Fortitude save with the following effects.

Success The target is enfeebled 2 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Success The target is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Failure The target is enfeebled 3 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Failure The target is destroyed.

The disrupting property comes in two varieties. The standard disrupting property deals some positive damage and can enfeeble undead. The greater version deals more positive damage, and can force undead to attempt a save—if they critically fail that save, they're destroyed outright!

Of course, other types of properties can do even more incredible things. Sometimes, these properties can require an expenditure of resonance.

Vorpal Rune 17

Evocation, Magical

Price 15,000 gp

Method of Use etched, melee weapon that deals slashing damage

Activation [[R]] Focus Activation; Trigger You roll a natural 20 and critically succeed at a Strike with the weapon targeting a creature with at least one head.


When you activate a vorpal weapon, the triggering creature must succeed at a DC 35 Fortitude save, or it is decapitated. This kills any creature except ones that don't require a head to live (such as constructs, oozes, and some aberrations and undead). For creatures with multiple heads (such as ettins or hydras), this usually kills the creature only if you sever its lasthead.

If, like the vorpal property, a weapon property has an activation, you have to spend Resonance to activate it; however, unlike worn items, you don't have to already be attuned to a weapon to activate it. So roll those 20s and snicker-snack your opponents for as long as you've got the resonance to spare.

Armor Potency and Properties

Magic armor also features potency and may have properties. Like weapons, armor can hold a maximum amount of potency and properties based on its quality and special materials, and you can add, remove, or transfer potency and properties between armor via runes. The maximum potency and number of properties for armor is the same as for weapons, though it's worth noting that rather than granting an additional property, orichalcum armor instead grants a +1 circumstance bonus to initiative rolls and automatically repairs itself over time.

Armor potency grants an item bonus to AC (including Touch Armor Class) and to your saving throws. Magic and high-quality armors are also easier to use. Armors of expert quality have their armor check penalty reduced by one, while master-quality armors have their penalty reduced by two, and legendary armor by three.

Like other worn items, you must invest armor; that is, you have to spend resonance to gain its magical effects. If your armor has an activated property, you must have invested the armor before you can use that ability. Let's look at an example of such a property.

Invisibility Rune 8+

Illusion, Magical

Method of Use etched, light armor

Activation [[A]] Command Activation


Once per day, you can whisper the command word to become invisible for 1 minute, gaining the effects of a 2nd-level invisibilityspell.

Type standard; Level 8; Price 500 gp

Type greater; Level 10; Price 1,000 gp

You can activate the armor up to 3 times per day.

Craft Requirements You must supply a casting of invisibility.

This favored property of many rangers and rogues (and maybe a sneaky alchemist or two) allows the attuned creature to gain the benefit of an invisibility spell at the cost of an action and 1 RP. The greater version enables you to activate the armor three times a day instead of just once.

But not all properties feature activations or require expending Resonance beyond that spent for initial attunement. Here's a classic example of one—fortification.

Fortification Rune 12+

Abjuration, Magical

Method of Use etched, medium or heavy armor


Each time you're hit by a critical hit while wearing fortification armor, attempt a flat check with the listed DC. If you succeed, that critical hit becomes a normal hit. This property thickens the armor, increasing its Bulk by 1.

Type standard; Level 12; Price 2,000 gp; DC 17

Type greater; Level 18; Price 24,000 gp; DC 14

Granting medium and heavy armor users the possibility to transform a critical hit to a normal hit, fortification provides an excellent constant effect for fighters, paladins, and more martial-focused clerics.

Potions

Now that you know how magic weapons and armor work, let's talk a look at something much less permanent, but often useful in a pinch—potions! While in First Edition, potions were spells of 3rd level or lower in a bottle; we wanted to go a slightly different route this time. Potions not only can have effects that reach into higher levels, but they also don't need to be tied to particular spell effects. All of that said, there are just some potions that are so iconic and necessary, you can't mess with them too much. Who doesn't need a healing potion every now and then?

Healing Potion Item 1+

Consumable, Healing, Magical, Necromancy, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


When you drink a healing potion, you regain the listed number of Hit Points.

Type minor; Level 1; Price 3 gp

The potion restores 1d8 Hit Points.

Type lesser; Level 3; Price 8 gp

The potion restores 2d8+4 Hit Points.

Type moderate; Level 5; Price 20 gp

The potion restores 3d8+8 Hit Points.

Type greater; Level 8; Price 60 gp

The potion restores 5d8+12 Hit Points.

Type major; Level 12; Price 250 gp

The potion restores 7d8+20 Hit Points.

Type true; Level 16; Price 1,200 gp

The potion restores 9d8+30 Hit Points.

The first thing you'll notice is that there are six varieties of this point, ranging from level 1 (restoring 1d8 Hit Points) to level 16 (restoring 9d8+20 Hit Points) You'll also notice that this potion (and all potions) has an activation. Which, you guessed it, means you have to spend Resonance to gain its effect.

Of course, sometimes a healing potion does its best work when you're down for the punch and can't activate it yourself. No worries. The time-honored tradition of pouring a potion down your wounded friend's gullet is still in the game. Your companion spends an Interact basic action to administer the potion to you, but you still need to spend Resonance to gain the potion's effect (thankfully, you don't have to be conscious to do so).

Of course, this new flexibility for potions allows us to keep some items that in First Edition were called elixirs (a term that in the Playtest, we now use for alchemical concoctions). Here's one of my favorites:

Dragon's Breath Potion Item 7+

Consumable, Evocation, Magical, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


This liquid contains blood from a certain breed of dragon. For 1 hour after you imbibe the acrid concoction, you can unleash a breath weapon used by that breed of dragon. The potion's level and Price, as well as the amount of damage and the DC of the saving throw, all depend on the age of the dragon whose blood you used. This item has the trait matching the damage type of the breath weapon.

You can spend another Operate Activation action with no RP cost immediately after drinking the potion to exhale dragon breath. At any point during the potion's duration, you can use the breath weapon by spending 1 RP and 2 Operate Activation actions (one to inhale the necessary air and the other to breathe out). After you use the breath weapon, you can't do so again for 1d4 rounds.

Each creature in the area of the breath weapon attempts a save against your breath weapon.

Success Half damage.

Critical Success No damage.

Failure Full damage.

Critical Failure Double damage.

Type young; Level 7; Price 45 gp; Damage 4d6; DC 21

Type adult; Level 12;

Price 250 gp; Damage 7d6; DC 28

Type wyrm; Level 17; Price 2,000 gp; Damage 10d6; DC 35

Dragon Breath Weapon (Save)

Black or copper 30-foot line of acid (Reflex)
Blue or bronze 30-foot line of electricity (Reflex)
Brass 30-foot line of fire (Reflex)
Green 15-foot cone of poison (Fortitude)
Gold or red 15-foot cone of fire (Reflex)
Silver or white 15-foot cone of cold (Reflex)

This one is interesting because you spend Resonance when you first drink the potion and spew some draconic hate on your foes, and can then continue to do so for an hour after imbibing whenever you spend actions and RP. Pick the right kind of dragon, and you'll be the life of whatever party you join.

Very closely related to potions are oils. Like potions, you activate these consumable items, but you do so by applying the oil to an object or person. While it usually takes one hand to drink or administer a potion, applying oil takes two hands. This particular oil may be of interest to shield users.

Oil of Mending Item 3

Consumable, Magical, Oil, Transmutation

Price 6 gp

Method of Use held, 2 hands; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


Applying this oil to an item casts a 2nd-level mending spell that repairs the item. If the item was broken, it is no longer broken. If the item has Dents, it loses those Dents. This restoration doesn't restore lost pieces. For instance, if used on a text with missing pages, it wouldn't recreate the lost pages.

A perfect backup when you fail your Crafting check to Repair an Item, or when you need to repair that dented shield in a hurry, the oil of mending has plenty of other uses.

Well, that's it for this week! Join us next week as we take a little walk in the woods.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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willuwontu wrote:
You can also spend 60 gp (once) and 1 RP (every day) and be able to stabilize all day.

You mean the Staff of Healing? For one, that gets charges equal to the highest level spell you can cast. So if you can't cast spells, no charges. Even then, it's only got full charges when you hit 7th level. And AFAIK Cantrips don't cost Resonance to cast from the staff, but they still take charges. Which means at most, 3/Day Stabilize once you're high level enough. If you're a class that casts spells. Otherwise, you get nothing (though I wouldn't be surprised if a Skill Feat in Religion or Occultism or one of those lets you add charges without being a spellcaster.)


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willuwontu wrote:
You can also spend 60 gp (once) and 1 RP (every day) and be able to stabilize all day.

How?

KingOfAnything wrote:
You can rely on consumables if you budget your resonance for it. Some people just don't like to do that.

Or don't have enough to budget, or actually want to use cool items, or...

There are plenty of reasons to hate the system: it'd be different it it was a budget for consumables but it it's: it's one for them AND worn items AND per day items AND other things...

Liberty's Edge

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TheFinish wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
You can also spend 60 gp (once) and 1 RP (every day) and be able to stabilize all day.
You mean the Staff of Healing? For one, that gets charges equal to the highest level spell you can cast. So if you can't cast spells, no charges. Even then, it's only got full charges when you hit 7th level. And AFAIK Cantrips don't cost Resonance to cast from the staff, but they still take charges. Which means at most, 3/Day Stabilize once you're high level enough. If you're a class that casts spells. Otherwise, you get nothing (though I wouldn't be surprised if a Skill Feat in Religion or Occultism or one of those lets you add charges without being a spellcaster.)

This is incorrect. Mark clarified that the Cantrip is free and unlimited use (w/Investment). You only need the charges (or spell slots) to cast heal.

I'd also like to note that anyone actually having Stabilize does a lot to solve the 'people dying due to being out of Resonance' thing. And is an available option from 1st level, and works from range.

graystone wrote:
How?

As noted, the Staff of Healing does this. Among other things.


graystone wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
You can also spend 60 gp (once) and 1 RP (every day) and be able to stabilize all day.
How?

Staff of healing, free stabilize cantrip costs no rp or charges to use, but you do have to invest 1 rp in it.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
This is incorrect. Mark clarified that the Cantrip is free and unlimited use (w/Investment).

Any idea where? I know the cantrip from the cloak was free but I don't recall seeing anything about staves.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
You can also spend 60 gp (once) and 1 RP (every day) and be able to stabilize all day.
You mean the Staff of Healing? For one, that gets charges equal to the highest level spell you can cast. So if you can't cast spells, no charges. Even then, it's only got full charges when you hit 7th level. And AFAIK Cantrips don't cost Resonance to cast from the staff, but they still take charges. Which means at most, 3/Day Stabilize once you're high level enough. If you're a class that casts spells. Otherwise, you get nothing (though I wouldn't be surprised if a Skill Feat in Religion or Occultism or one of those lets you add charges without being a spellcaster.)

This is incorrect. Mark clarified that the Cantrip is free and unlimited use (w/Investment). You only need the charges (or spell slots) to cast heal.

I'd also like to note that anyone actually having Stabilize does a lot to solve the 'people dying due to being out of Resonance' thing. And is an available option from 1st level, and works from range.

graystone wrote:
How?
As noted, the Staff of Healing does this. Among other things.

Did he? He clarified that it costs no Resonance, but I never saw anywhere in the thread where he said it also costs no charges. Relevant Post

It might be in another thread, I suppose.

Liberty's Edge

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TheFinish wrote:

Did he? He clarified that it costs no Resonance, but I never saw anywhere in the thread where he said it also costs no charges. Relevant Post

It might be in another thread, I suppose.

No, that's the post I was thinking of. I'm not sure how you're interpreting 'free' as 'still costs charges', though.

I mean, Mark's a pretty precise guy, if he says 'free' I assume he means casting stabilize if free.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Look, there's a reason that every PFS scenario hands out somewhere between a few and a metric boat load of healing potions from most encounters.

But at low levels, you can't even budget your resonance for it-

At 3rd level, saving all your resonance, you could drink 3 potions a day for any average martial striker or tank build.

Is the encounters per day going to be wildly different? Because otherwise we're pushing back into "no pfs table can fire without a cleric" territory which I think we can all agree isn't fun.

A few people like playing dedicated healers. Most don't. Most people want to get to play many different character classes and forcing one out of every 4 to always play dedicated heal bot cleric or risk TPK in an average scenario isn't allowing for that.

PFS one used potions and 2 PP wands to get away from that need.


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Nathanael Love wrote:

Look, there's a reason that every PFS scenario hands out somewhere between a few and a metric boat load of healing potions from most encounters.

But at low levels, you can't even budget your resonance for it-

At 3rd level, saving all your resonance, you could drink 3 potions a day for any average martial striker or tank build.

Is the encounters per day going to be wildly different? Because otherwise we're pushing back into "no pfs table can fire without a cleric" territory which I think we can all agree isn't fun.

A few people like playing dedicated healers. Most don't. Most people want to get to play many different character classes and forcing one out of every 4 to always play dedicated heal bot cleric or risk TPK in an average scenario isn't allowing for that.

PFS one used potions and 2 PP wands to get away from that need.

So what I'm getting from that is that players should be automatically at full health between encounters for free.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Nathanael Love wrote:

Look, there's a reason that every PFS scenario hands out somewhere between a few and a metric boat load of healing potions from most encounters.

But at low levels, you can't even budget your resonance for it-

At 3rd level, saving all your resonance, you could drink 3 potions a day for any average martial striker or tank build.

Is the encounters per day going to be wildly different? Because otherwise we're pushing back into "no pfs table can fire without a cleric" territory which I think we can all agree isn't fun.

A few people like playing dedicated healers. Most don't. Most people want to get to play many different character classes and forcing one out of every 4 to always play dedicated heal bot cleric or risk TPK in an average scenario isn't allowing for that.

PFS one used potions and 2 PP wands to get away from that need.

Its a weird assumption that they'll radically change almost every aspect of the game but will keep writing PFS scenarios in the way it was before. I mean one of the benefits of limiting the scope of healing is that they can also reduce the deadliness of assumed balance without reducing actual tension.

I.e a threatening scenario now has to have a chance to deal 100% of a characters HP because otherwise all that HP is healed for next to no cost. With limited healing a threatening scenario could be designed to do 15% of a character's HP because there is a decent cost to healing that damage.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
TheFinish wrote:

Did he? He clarified that it costs no Resonance, but I never saw anywhere in the thread where he said it also costs no charges. Relevant Post

It might be in another thread, I suppose.

No, that's the post I was thinking of. I'm not sure how you're interpreting 'free' as 'still costs charges', though.

I mean, Mark's a pretty precise guy, if he says 'free' I assume he means casting stabilize if free.

Because QuidEst referenced cantrips as being expensive due to costing resonance. Mark then says they are free. Therefore, we can assume they cost no resonance. And that's it.

Now, given the explained mechanics of the blog for the staff, whether or not they cost charges is up in the air. Remember they're no longer considered 0 level spells, so the cost may very well be 1 charge (or higher, since cantrips are automatically heightened to your highest level spell, but I doubt that'll be the case).

Though it may very well be that since you can "expend" a spell of the level or higher to cast a staff spell you can cast it forever by using a cantrip "slot" which doesn't go away since cantrips are at will. But without the full rules on both cantrips and staves it's just conjecture.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
willuwontu wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

Look, there's a reason that every PFS scenario hands out somewhere between a few and a metric boat load of healing potions from most encounters.

But at low levels, you can't even budget your resonance for it-

At 3rd level, saving all your resonance, you could drink 3 potions a day for any average martial striker or tank build.

Is the encounters per day going to be wildly different? Because otherwise we're pushing back into "no pfs table can fire without a cleric" territory which I think we can all agree isn't fun.

A few people like playing dedicated healers. Most don't. Most people want to get to play many different character classes and forcing one out of every 4 to always play dedicated heal bot cleric or risk TPK in an average scenario isn't allowing for that.

PFS one used potions and 2 PP wands to get away from that need.

So what I'm getting from that is that players should be automatically at full health between encounters for free.

No.

But a table of 4 characters should be an automatic death sentence if one of them isn't the dedicated healing cleric.


Nathanael Love wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

Look, there's a reason that every PFS scenario hands out somewhere between a few and a metric boat load of healing potions from most encounters.

But at low levels, you can't even budget your resonance for it-

At 3rd level, saving all your resonance, you could drink 3 potions a day for any average martial striker or tank build.

Is the encounters per day going to be wildly different? Because otherwise we're pushing back into "no pfs table can fire without a cleric" territory which I think we can all agree isn't fun.

A few people like playing dedicated healers. Most don't. Most people want to get to play many different character classes and forcing one out of every 4 to always play dedicated heal bot cleric or risk TPK in an average scenario isn't allowing for that.

PFS one used potions and 2 PP wands to get away from that need.

So what I'm getting from that is that players should be automatically at full health between encounters for free.

No.

But a table of 4 characters should be an automatic death sentence if one of them isn't the dedicated healing cleric.

So what would you have the cost be in a way that stops clw spam from being the solution?


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Literally anything else except a fiddly complicated system based on Charisma that forces you to choose between worn items and potions.

I'm not even saying wands here, just potions!


Nathanael Love wrote:

Literally anything else except a fiddly complicated system based on Charisma that forces you to choose between worn items and potions.

I'm not even saying wands here, just potions!

So if they split the system apart into 2 separate systems, one dealing with worn items/worn item activations, and one dealing with consumables, you'd be okay with that?


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
willuwontu wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

Literally anything else except a fiddly complicated system based on Charisma that forces you to choose between worn items and potions.

I'm not even saying wands here, just potions!

So if they split the system apart into 2 separate systems, one dealing with worn items/worn item activations, and one dealing with consumables, you'd be okay with that?

It still seems like an incredibly finicky and complicated system designed to combat what amounts to a non-issue, but yes- resonance as a thing you use for worn item activations could be fine, though it will still result in channeling people even more into ONLY the absolute best items.

But if potions don't draw from it, then it isn't going to directly contribute to the party wipes and massive annoyance of requiring players to run heal bots.


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Nathanael Love wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

Literally anything else except a fiddly complicated system based on Charisma that forces you to choose between worn items and potions.

I'm not even saying wands here, just potions!

So if they split the system apart into 2 separate systems, one dealing with worn items/worn item activations, and one dealing with consumables, you'd be okay with that?

It still seems like an incredibly finicky and complicated system designed to combat what amounts to a non-issue, but yes- resonance as a thing you use for worn item activations could be fine, though it will still result in channeling people even more into ONLY the absolute best items.

But if potions don't draw from it, then it isn't going to directly contribute to the party wipes and massive annoyance of requiring players to run heal bots.

The problem here is that wands will still use Resonance and serve as the best HP/GP ratio, so you're really only singling out the wand users, and every other character still has to deal with the "I can't Resonance on X because I might have to heal" problem.

Honestly, a "max after each fight" solution might be the best way to counteract everything. 5e does it, why can't we?


As far as I am aware, they haven't yet revealed:
1. What additional abilities, if any, you get for having trained or better Medicine skill
2. Whether or not there are any spells in the wizard/sorceror/druid/bard list that can heal, or at least stabilise the dying
3. What healer's tools do, and if there are improved versions of them equivalent to 1e masterwork or better
4. How many magic items the average character is anticipated to own that need Resonance invested in them.
5. How deadly combat against average level opponents is expected to be.
6. Whether there are any other non-magical items (herbs? alchemical stuff??) that can be used to boost healing.
7. Other class or ancestry abilities that might grant some sort of healing, or at least stabilising capability.
8. How wands work.

For all we know, alchemists may have healing mist bombs, bards may have healing song bardic performane, and there are modestly priced superior healing tools that give you a +5 bonus to medicine, or more if you use a dose of padzar.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

Literally anything else except a fiddly complicated system based on Charisma that forces you to choose between worn items and potions.

I'm not even saying wands here, just potions!

So if they split the system apart into 2 separate systems, one dealing with worn items/worn item activations, and one dealing with consumables, you'd be okay with that?

It still seems like an incredibly finicky and complicated system designed to combat what amounts to a non-issue, but yes- resonance as a thing you use for worn item activations could be fine, though it will still result in channeling people even more into ONLY the absolute best items.

But if potions don't draw from it, then it isn't going to directly contribute to the party wipes and massive annoyance of requiring players to run heal bots.

The problem here is that wands will still use Resonance and serve as the best HP/GP ratio, so you're really only singling out the wand users, and every other character still has to deal with the "I can't Resonance on X because I might have to heal" problem.

Honestly, a "max after each fight" solution might be the best way to counteract everything. 5e does it, why can't we?

I'll be honest that is part of why I stopped playing 5e. Nothing ever really felt like it mattered.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Potions need to be non-resonance because that's the healing everyone can use.

5E does not have max HP after each encounter, just after each long rest (day).

5E does have a non-medical healing mechanism that all characters get (tied to their hit dice) and use in a short rest.


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Malk_Content wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

Literally anything else except a fiddly complicated system based on Charisma that forces you to choose between worn items and potions.

I'm not even saying wands here, just potions!

So if they split the system apart into 2 separate systems, one dealing with worn items/worn item activations, and one dealing with consumables, you'd be okay with that?

It still seems like an incredibly finicky and complicated system designed to combat what amounts to a non-issue, but yes- resonance as a thing you use for worn item activations could be fine, though it will still result in channeling people even more into ONLY the absolute best items.

But if potions don't draw from it, then it isn't going to directly contribute to the party wipes and massive annoyance of requiring players to run heal bots.

The problem here is that wands will still use Resonance and serve as the best HP/GP ratio, so you're really only singling out the wand users, and every other character still has to deal with the "I can't Resonance on X because I might have to heal" problem.

Honestly, a "max after each fight" solution might be the best way to counteract everything. 5e does it, why can't we?

I'll be honest that is part of why I stopped playing 5e. Nothing ever really felt like it mattered.

It's not much different than the CLW wand spam we get all the time in PF1, so it makes sense to just alter it and adjust the WBL accordingly, since the CLW wand spam is just a glorified "handwaving" of out-of-combat healing.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Nathanael Love wrote:

Potions need to be non-resonance because that's the healing everyone can use.

5E does not have max HP after each encounter, just after each long rest (day).

5E does have a non-medical healing mechanism that all characters get (tied to their hit dice) and use in a short rest.

You are right I misremembered. The dissatisfaction I got was when my gm tried to run a game based on us pushing ourselves over several days. Where the damage we took on each day didn't matter.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

Literally anything else except a fiddly complicated system based on Charisma that forces you to choose between worn items and potions.

I'm not even saying wands here, just potions!

So if they split the system apart into 2 separate systems, one dealing with worn items/worn item activations, and one dealing with consumables, you'd be okay with that?

It still seems like an incredibly finicky and complicated system designed to combat what amounts to a non-issue, but yes- resonance as a thing you use for worn item activations could be fine, though it will still result in channeling people even more into ONLY the absolute best items.

But if potions don't draw from it, then it isn't going to directly contribute to the party wipes and massive annoyance of requiring players to run heal bots.

The problem here is that wands will still use Resonance and serve as the best HP/GP ratio, so you're really only singling out the wand users, and every other character still has to deal with the "I can't Resonance on X because I might have to heal" problem.

Honestly, a "max after each fight" solution might be the best way to counteract everything. 5e does it, why can't we?

I'll be honest that is part of why I stopped playing 5e. Nothing ever really felt like it mattered.
It's not much different than the CLW wand spam we get all the time in PF1, so it makes sense to just alter it and adjust the WBL accordingly, since the CLW wand spam is just a glorified "handwaving" of out-of-combat healing.

Oh yeah don't like CLW wand spam either. We moved off DnD entirely for a bit because its HP mechanics didn't really make sense or facilitate the type of stories we wanted.


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Malk_Content wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

Literally anything else except a fiddly complicated system based on Charisma that forces you to choose between worn items and potions.

I'm not even saying wands here, just potions!

So if they split the system apart into 2 separate systems, one dealing with worn items/worn item activations, and one dealing with consumables, you'd be okay with that?

It still seems like an incredibly finicky and complicated system designed to combat what amounts to a non-issue, but yes- resonance as a thing you use for worn item activations could be fine, though it will still result in channeling people even more into ONLY the absolute best items.

But if potions don't draw from it, then it isn't going to directly contribute to the party wipes and massive annoyance of requiring players to run heal bots.

The problem here is that wands will still use Resonance and serve as the best HP/GP ratio, so you're really only singling out the wand users, and every other character still has to deal with the "I can't Resonance on X because I might have to heal" problem.

Honestly, a "max after each fight" solution might be the best way to counteract everything. 5e does it, why can't we?

I'll be honest that is part of why I stopped playing 5e. Nothing ever really felt like it mattered.
It's not much different than the CLW wand spam we get all the time in PF1, so it makes sense to just alter it and adjust the WBL accordingly, since the CLW wand spam is just a glorified "handwaving" of out-of-combat healing.
Oh yeah don't like CLW wand spam either. We moved off DnD entirely for a bit because its HP mechanics didn't really make sense or facilitate the type of stories we wanted.

Which is fine, and leads into this question, then: What sort of HP mechanics would you think are appropriate?


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Resonance solely as a limit on equipment and otherwise use/day items seems like it could squeak by into my games.

Resonance purely as a limit on consumables won't make it to my table after the play test.

Resonance as a limit on both is so far outside of my desired game flavor I can barely see it lasting two sessions during the playtest.

I see the discussion going in circles around this sort of loop:

1. Resonance is good because it removes wand spam
2. Why is wand spam a problem?
3. Low cost and removes HP as a point of attrition and makes people not worry about taking damage during fights.
4. I don't want high costs and HP attrition.
5. Then use a system of automatically healing up after fights.
6. But Resonance still restricts potions and scrolls
7. Then save your Resonance to use potions and scrolls
8. But why do we have Resonance for them in the first place?
9. Refer to point one.

Or something along those lines. Invariably, somewhere along the discussion the presupposition that Resonance should exist is made.

I *still* firmly believe that Resonance doesn't have an adequate reason for existing.

Item slots are fine, in fact I prefer them.
Wands are not a problem for everyone, and for those who it is a problem for, even PF1 had the solution of having the GM not hand them out like candy.
I'm okay with high level characters using low level consumables.
Charges still exist so Resonance doesn't reduce complexity.

Liberty's Edge

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ITT: People picking apart small issues in a pre-playtest system when they haven't even been provided HALF of the accompanying rules to judge them based on.

I mean... just LOOK at all these people losing their minds because they're worried they can't benefit from a potion if they 100% min/max their magic equipment to fill their Resonance capacity, and if they're not upset that they need to reserve some of their Resonance for consumables, they're upset that they cannot use Charisma as a Dump stat efficiently anymore.


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Themetricsystem wrote:

ITT: People picking apart small issues in a pre-playtest system when they haven't even been provided HALF of the accompanying rules to judge them based on.

I mean... just LOOK at all these people losing their minds because they're worried they can't benefit from a potion if they 100% min/max their magic equipment to fill their Resonance capacity, and if they're not upset that they need to reserve some of their Resonance for consumables, they're upset that they cannot use Charisma as a Dump stat efficiently anymore.

So something that fundamentally changes the way I've been playing for over a decade just means I've been doing it wrong for 10+years...

good to know, thanks!


Themetricsystem wrote:
ITT: People telling other people they are having badwrongfun.

Fixed that for you.


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Themetricsystem wrote:

ITT: People picking apart small issues in a pre-playtest system when they haven't even been provided HALF of the accompanying rules to judge them based on.

I mean... just LOOK at all these people losing their minds because they're worried they can't benefit from a potion if they 100% min/max their magic equipment to fill their Resonance capacity, and if they're not upset that they need to reserve some of their Resonance for consumables, they're upset that they cannot use Charisma as a Dump stat efficiently anymore.

LOL I find it really shocking that some people dislike it when they are told their playstyle is wrong and they are crazy for mentioning that... :P


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I think we still need to actually sit down and play the game before we figure out how much healing we need. I mean, among other things every character now has more HP than they would have in PF1 and it's harder to die, so "we need a healing spell or a new character" situations should be less common. Another thing that's conspicuously true is that "direct damage mitigation" is now accessible in significant quantities from the very start- anybody with a shield now has significant DR against at least one attack, and Barbarians have a completely replenishing temp HP pool every few rounds, so who knows what else there is out there to make hits hurt less.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think we still need to actually sit down and play the game before we figure out how much healing we need.

I don't think we need to know the overall healing dynamic to know that it'll suck if someone's down and the healing item the party has fails do to lack of resonance.


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graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think we still need to actually sit down and play the game before we figure out how much healing we need.
I don't think we need to know the overall healing dynamic to know that it'll suck if someone's down and the healing item the party has fails do to lack of resonance.

Is this a remotely likely scenario though? How avoidable is it with parties who are playing in a sensibly cautious fashion?


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think we still need to actually sit down and play the game before we figure out how much healing we need.
I don't think we need to know the overall healing dynamic to know that it'll suck if someone's down and the healing item the party has fails do to lack of resonance.
Is this a remotely likely scenario though?

Hmmm... 1st level [+1 resonance] + dwarf starting Cha of -2 [-1] means a dwarf that doesn't increase cha had 1 resonance at 2nd. So seems like it's something that can come up. How often? How often does it have to to find it annoying? IMO once.


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Well, in the case of level 2 Dwarves, what non-resonance healing solutions do we have available? How likely is it that the Dwarf, who likely has more HP than anyone, is the one who needs emergency healing?


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think we still need to actually sit down and play the game before we figure out how much healing we need.
I don't think we need to know the overall healing dynamic to know that it'll suck if someone's down and the healing item the party has fails do to lack of resonance.
Is this a remotely likely scenario though?
Hmmm... 1st level [+1 resonance] + dwarf starting Cha of -2 [-1] means a dwarf that doesn't increase cha had 1 resonance at 2nd. So seems like it's something that can come up. How often? How often does it have to to find it annoying? IMO once.

Third level fighter with a 10 CHA has 3 resonance. . .

So he can drink at most 3 potions/day, and he's supposed to absorb most of the hits the party takes?

Even at 4th or 5th level if you use a single point of resonance on something else you out yourself at risk.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think we still need to actually sit down and play the game before we figure out how much healing we need.
I don't think we need to know the overall healing dynamic to know that it'll suck if someone's down and the healing item the party has fails do to lack of resonance.
Is this a remotely likely scenario though? How avoidable is it with parties who are playing in a sensibly cautious fashion?

Do we really want a 15 minute workday though, as that is what 'sensibly cautious' evokes for me.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Well, in the case of level 2 Dwarves, what non-resonance healing solutions do we have available? How likely is it that the Dwarf, who likely has more HP than anyone, is the one who needs emergency healing?

The dwarf has what, 2 hit points more than a human of the same class?

Not super relevant at that point?


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
dragonhunterq wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think we still need to actually sit down and play the game before we figure out how much healing we need.
I don't think we need to know the overall healing dynamic to know that it'll suck if someone's down and the healing item the party has fails do to lack of resonance.
Is this a remotely likely scenario though? How avoidable is it with parties who are playing in a sensibly cautious fashion?
Do we really want a 15 minute workday though, as that is what 'sensibly cautious' evokes for me.

Can't do any encounters if any player is out of resonance, right?

If the answer to dying because of no resonance is "Well why were you in combat without any resonance left?" then that will be the answer.


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I mean, literally the only time I've seen a healing potion used in one of my games is "emergency save them from death/get them on their feet" so I don't know if "you can only drink 3 potions" seems that limiting.

My real question is whether in the course of normal play is Resonance will run out about the same time other key resources (spell slots, spell points, etc.) run out. Since ideally this is how it works and this is fine.


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Nathanael Love wrote:
Third level fighter with a 10 CHA has 3 resonance...

Said fighter actually only has 2 spendable RP. One must be invested in his armor's Potency Rune.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Well, in the case of level 2 Dwarves, what non-resonance healing solutions do we have available? How likely is it that the Dwarf, who likely has more HP than anyone, is the one who needs emergency healing?

I don't think you understand: at some point, a character is going to want to actually USE the potions the game provides and that's most like when other means are expended time is short. It's unfun to have it use and it be colored water.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, literally the only time I've seen a healing potion used in one of my games is "emergency save them from death/get them on their feet" so I don't know if "you can only drink 3 potions" seems that limiting.

My real question is whether in the course of normal play is Resonance will run out about the same time other key resources (spell slots, spell points, etc.) run out. Since ideally this is how it works and this is fine.

Look at the Well-Provisioned Adventurer trait once. You could start with:

#1 oil of bless weapon, potions of cure light wounds (2), potion of protection from evil
or
#2 scrolls of comprehend languages (2), scroll of detect secret doors, scroll of glitterdust, scrolls of identify (2), scroll of mount, scroll of rope trick, thunderstone, wand of mage armor (16 charges)
or others.

We've focused just on healing potions but it's for EVERYTHING you use. Lets say our dwarf is a wizard and actually uses a wand, scroll or two and THEN gets hit with something and is down. Resonance it your worn/used item pool and your consumable pool so fun/cool/utility is coming out of your healing and basic survival pool.


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Cantriped wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:
Third level fighter with a 10 CHA has 3 resonance...
Said fighter actually only has 2 spendable RP. One must be invested in his armor's Potency Rune.

Isn't level 2 a bit early to be buying magic armor? Per the Automatic Bonus Progression rules you wouldn't get armor attunement until level 4, which may be closer to the intention for PF2.


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graystone wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

ITT: People picking apart small issues in a pre-playtest system when they haven't even been provided HALF of the accompanying rules to judge them based on.

I mean... just LOOK at all these people losing their minds because they're worried they can't benefit from a potion if they 100% min/max their magic equipment to fill their Resonance capacity, and if they're not upset that they need to reserve some of their Resonance for consumables, they're upset that they cannot use Charisma as a Dump stat efficiently anymore.

LOL I find it really shocking that some people dislike it when they are told their playstyle is wrong and they are crazy for mentioning that... :P

I don't see accusations of wrongful playstyle in Themetricsystem's words. I see someone saying that we don't know all the resonance rules yet and we have not tried them out in actual games. Resonance might work fine.

Yes, the rules we have seen suggest problems, such as potions failing in desperate times. But the Paizo designers have proven to be excellent. They have playtested this among themselves. They earned my respect and I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

I also keep imagining tweaks, too, because I like taking rules apart. My self-discipline will be to first playtest resonance as written, then add houserules to flavor it to my taste.

I wish I had a good way to summarize resonance rules to my players. I'll post more on that later.


graystone wrote:

Look at the Well-Provisioned Adventurer trait once. You could start with:

#1 oil of bless weapon, potions of cure light wounds (2), potion of protection from evil
or
#2 scrolls of comprehend languages (2), scroll of detect secret doors, scroll of glitterdust, scrolls of identify (2), scroll of mount, scroll of rope trick, thunderstone, wand of mage armor (16 charges)
or others.

We've focused just on healing potions but it's for EVERYTHING you use. Lets say our dwarf is a wizard and actually uses a wand, scroll or two and THEN gets hit with something and is down. Resonance it your worn/used item pool and your consumable pool so fun/cool/utility is coming out of your healing and basic survival pool.

And for a 12 Cha character (which won't be that hard to find in 2e), you can use half of #1, in a day. And as for #2, How many times will you need comprehend languages at level 1? How many times will you need Mage Armor in a normal day? Can you decide to delay your use of scrolls of identify?

I don't necessarily disagree that Initial resonance should be higher, but I don't see the boons of the Well Provisioned Adventurer trait (which itself I've never seen taken, as it is at odds with actually worthwhile traits) as anything that disputes the proposed resonance system.


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Mathmuse wrote:
I don't see accusations of wrongful playstyle in Themetricsystem's words.

No, resonance and 'fixing' CLW spam is saying that. As such, saying it's the best thing since sliced bread IS agreeing with that: add to that it assumes I dump cha and min/max and those are bad. It smacks of badwrongfun to me.

Mathmuse wrote:
I see someone saying that we don't know all the resonance rules yet and we have not tried them out in actual games. Resonance might work fine.

He went RIGHT past that with the second part. He ascribes reasons why people don't love it and in a negative way.

Mathmuse wrote:
Yes, the rules we have seen suggest problems, such as potions failing in desperate times. But the Paizo designers have proven to be excellent. They have playtested this among themselves. They earned my respect and I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

You're free to do as you like. I just don't like it when someone makes it seems like I'm wrong for stating my thought/feelings. Personally I know I don't have to see the whole rules to know I'll hate resonance, IMO it's bad and the whole picture will just let me know what degree of bad it is.

Tholomyes wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree that Initial resonance should be higher, but I don't see the boons of the Well Provisioned Adventurer trait (which itself I've never seen taken, as it is at odds with actually worthwhile traits) as anything that disputes the proposed resonance system.

It was a counterpoint to 'when will you drink 3 potions of healing'. It shows that you can start out with a collection of things that uses resonance far exceeding your total RP for your level.

So take the wand: it doesn't seem odd to use it once or twice so 2 there. Maybe glitterdust on an enemy. Right there we're looking at 2-3 and on a dwarf wizard maybe rolling for failure already before a potion of healing.


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"graystone” wrote:

Look at the Well-Provisioned Adventurer trait once. You could start with:

#1 oil of bless weapon, potions of cure light wounds (2), potion of protection from evil
or
#2 scrolls of comprehend languages (2), scroll of detect secret doors, scroll of glitterdust, scrolls of identify (2), scroll of mount, scroll of rope trick, thunderstone, wand of mage armor (16 charges)
or others.

We've focused just on healing potions but it's for EVERYTHING you use. Lets say our dwarf is a wizard and actually uses a wand, scroll or two and THEN gets hit with something and is down. Resonance it your worn/used item pool and your consumable pool so fun/cool/utility is coming out of your healing and basic survival pool.

That is the first I’ve ever seen that Trait before! THAT is from AA2? You start with 1000gp worth of magic items?? That’s insane!!

EDIT: Ok, reading a little more closely, that’s 1000gp worth of equipment, not all magic items. Still, I’ve never had a GM allow starting with magic items, ever at level 1.


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Nathanael Love wrote:
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think we still need to actually sit down and play the game before we figure out how much healing we need.
I don't think we need to know the overall healing dynamic to know that it'll suck if someone's down and the healing item the party has fails do to lack of resonance.
Is this a remotely likely scenario though?
Hmmm... 1st level [+1 resonance] + dwarf starting Cha of -2 [-1] means a dwarf that doesn't increase cha had 1 resonance at 2nd. So seems like it's something that can come up. How often? How often does it have to to find it annoying? IMO once.

Third level fighter with a 10 CHA has 3 resonance. . .

So he can drink at most 3 potions/day, and he's supposed to absorb most of the hits the party takes?

Even at 4th or 5th level if you use a single point of resonance on something else you out yourself at risk.

To be fair, said Fighter is using a Shield, and thereby reduces the amount of damage he takes significantly (assuming one-on-one combat). However, this is still a risk against uneven enemies (which is easily going to happen), or against powerful enemies who can demolish (or even ignore) shields, which can and will happen.

Needless to say, 3 potions aren't going to happen, as they're too expensive and too weak to justify their Resonance cost. At best, you're going to have a CLW Wand, and you're burning all your Resonance on that for out-of-combat healing (since you should be topped off before each combat, hopefully). Even then, this assumes CLW wands are affordable by 3rd level (which is doubtful, even as a "party funds" thing).

Silver Crusade

Does anyone know if you can Empower a healing spell put into a healing potion?


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Mathmuse wrote:
graystone wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

ITT: People picking apart small issues in a pre-playtest system when they haven't even been provided HALF of the accompanying rules to judge them based on.

I mean... just LOOK at all these people losing their minds because they're worried they can't benefit from a potion if they 100% min/max their magic equipment to fill their Resonance capacity, and if they're not upset that they need to reserve some of their Resonance for consumables, they're upset that they cannot use Charisma as a Dump stat efficiently anymore.

LOL I find it really shocking that some people dislike it when they are told their playstyle is wrong and they are crazy for mentioning that... :P
I don't see accusations of wrongful playstyle in Themetricsystem's words. .

I want PF2 to succeed, but I still want it to feel like the game I play now. Resonance appears to fundamentally change that, as do the designers stated aims. It is only fair that I and others who feel the same as I do have a chance to say "this problem you think you have isn't actually a problem for me" without it being dismissed out of hand as 'losing our minds' because we can't "min/max" anymore.


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I’m the farthest thing from a min maxer. I don’t care about that, I usually make characters by ‘what feels cool’ ‘what I like’. ‘What paints an evocative picture in my head’

I have problems with resonance for many or the reasons stated above and a few others. Have I suddenly become a whining minmaxer?

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