Potency and Potions

Friday, June 29, 2018

Earlier this week, Logan gave you the skinny on Resonance and how it interacts with some iconic and all-new magic items. If you missed out on Logan's explanation of Resonance, you might want to take a look here before reading on, because we're going to come back to it at the end of the blog. You got how Resonance works? Good. Now forget about it, we're going to talk about weapons instead.

Potency and Properties

Unlike items with the invested trait or ones that you activate, weapons typically require no Resonance to use. You just pick one up and swing (or shoot, or sling, or thrust, or throw), and the magic weapon unleashes its punch, often with potency. Think as a weapon's potency as its "plus" and more. Potency still grants an item bonus to your attack rolls with the weapon, but now it also increases the damage dealt by an additional weapon die for each point of potency bonus. For example, let's say you find a +1 longsword buried in an otyugh's dung heap. Regardless of its current soiling, that weapon grants not only a +1 item bonus to attack rolls, but on a successful hit it deals 2d8 + Strength modifier damage, instead of the standard 1d8 + Strength modifier. A +2 longsword would instead grant a +2 item bonus to attacks and deal 3d8 + Strength modifier damage, and so on.

Of course, potency is only a part of the story. Magic weapons can also have properties. The maximum potency and the number of properties a weapon can have are based on that weapon's quality. Standard weapons can't have potency or properties, while expert-quality weapons can have up to +2 potency and one property. Master-quality weapons can have up to +4 potency and two properties, and legendary weapons can be +5 weapons and have three properties. Sometimes, special materials can affect the number of properties a magic weapon can possess. Since cold iron resists magic, weapons made of cold iron have one fewer property. Conversely, weapons made of highly magical orichalcum can have one additional property, but because the metal is so rare and difficult to work, these weapons must be legendary.

Both potency and property are imbued within a suitable weapon by etching magical runes upon it. Runes can be fairly easily removed or added (assuming the quality of the weapon allows it), and can even be found etched on a runestone, allowing them to be transferred separately from a weapon. Say you just found a handful of weapon property runestones in your adventure. What properties might they be? Well, let's take a look at one of the favorites of good and undead-hating clerics.

Disrupting Rune 5+

Method of Use etched, melee weapon


A disrupting weapon deals extra damage to undead. Undead hit by an attack with a disrupting weapon takes extra positive damage and additional effects on a critical hit.

Type standard; Level 5; Price 150 gp

The weapon deals 1d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Type greater; Level 15 (Uncommon), Price 6,200 gp

The weapon deals 2d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead creature must attempt a DC 32 Fortitude save with the following effects.

Success The target is enfeebled 2 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Success The target is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Failure The target is enfeebled 3 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Failure The target is destroyed.

The disrupting property comes in two varieties. The standard disrupting property deals some positive damage and can enfeeble undead. The greater version deals more positive damage, and can force undead to attempt a save—if they critically fail that save, they're destroyed outright!

Of course, other types of properties can do even more incredible things. Sometimes, these properties can require an expenditure of resonance.

Vorpal Rune 17

Evocation, Magical

Price 15,000 gp

Method of Use etched, melee weapon that deals slashing damage

Activation [[R]] Focus Activation; Trigger You roll a natural 20 and critically succeed at a Strike with the weapon targeting a creature with at least one head.


When you activate a vorpal weapon, the triggering creature must succeed at a DC 35 Fortitude save, or it is decapitated. This kills any creature except ones that don't require a head to live (such as constructs, oozes, and some aberrations and undead). For creatures with multiple heads (such as ettins or hydras), this usually kills the creature only if you sever its lasthead.

If, like the vorpal property, a weapon property has an activation, you have to spend Resonance to activate it; however, unlike worn items, you don't have to already be attuned to a weapon to activate it. So roll those 20s and snicker-snack your opponents for as long as you've got the resonance to spare.

Armor Potency and Properties

Magic armor also features potency and may have properties. Like weapons, armor can hold a maximum amount of potency and properties based on its quality and special materials, and you can add, remove, or transfer potency and properties between armor via runes. The maximum potency and number of properties for armor is the same as for weapons, though it's worth noting that rather than granting an additional property, orichalcum armor instead grants a +1 circumstance bonus to initiative rolls and automatically repairs itself over time.

Armor potency grants an item bonus to AC (including Touch Armor Class) and to your saving throws. Magic and high-quality armors are also easier to use. Armors of expert quality have their armor check penalty reduced by one, while master-quality armors have their penalty reduced by two, and legendary armor by three.

Like other worn items, you must invest armor; that is, you have to spend resonance to gain its magical effects. If your armor has an activated property, you must have invested the armor before you can use that ability. Let's look at an example of such a property.

Invisibility Rune 8+

Illusion, Magical

Method of Use etched, light armor

Activation [[A]] Command Activation


Once per day, you can whisper the command word to become invisible for 1 minute, gaining the effects of a 2nd-level invisibilityspell.

Type standard; Level 8; Price 500 gp

Type greater; Level 10; Price 1,000 gp

You can activate the armor up to 3 times per day.

Craft Requirements You must supply a casting of invisibility.

This favored property of many rangers and rogues (and maybe a sneaky alchemist or two) allows the attuned creature to gain the benefit of an invisibility spell at the cost of an action and 1 RP. The greater version enables you to activate the armor three times a day instead of just once.

But not all properties feature activations or require expending Resonance beyond that spent for initial attunement. Here's a classic example of one—fortification.

Fortification Rune 12+

Abjuration, Magical

Method of Use etched, medium or heavy armor


Each time you're hit by a critical hit while wearing fortification armor, attempt a flat check with the listed DC. If you succeed, that critical hit becomes a normal hit. This property thickens the armor, increasing its Bulk by 1.

Type standard; Level 12; Price 2,000 gp; DC 17

Type greater; Level 18; Price 24,000 gp; DC 14

Granting medium and heavy armor users the possibility to transform a critical hit to a normal hit, fortification provides an excellent constant effect for fighters, paladins, and more martial-focused clerics.

Potions

Now that you know how magic weapons and armor work, let's talk a look at something much less permanent, but often useful in a pinch—potions! While in First Edition, potions were spells of 3rd level or lower in a bottle; we wanted to go a slightly different route this time. Potions not only can have effects that reach into higher levels, but they also don't need to be tied to particular spell effects. All of that said, there are just some potions that are so iconic and necessary, you can't mess with them too much. Who doesn't need a healing potion every now and then?

Healing Potion Item 1+

Consumable, Healing, Magical, Necromancy, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


When you drink a healing potion, you regain the listed number of Hit Points.

Type minor; Level 1; Price 3 gp

The potion restores 1d8 Hit Points.

Type lesser; Level 3; Price 8 gp

The potion restores 2d8+4 Hit Points.

Type moderate; Level 5; Price 20 gp

The potion restores 3d8+8 Hit Points.

Type greater; Level 8; Price 60 gp

The potion restores 5d8+12 Hit Points.

Type major; Level 12; Price 250 gp

The potion restores 7d8+20 Hit Points.

Type true; Level 16; Price 1,200 gp

The potion restores 9d8+30 Hit Points.

The first thing you'll notice is that there are six varieties of this point, ranging from level 1 (restoring 1d8 Hit Points) to level 16 (restoring 9d8+20 Hit Points) You'll also notice that this potion (and all potions) has an activation. Which, you guessed it, means you have to spend Resonance to gain its effect.

Of course, sometimes a healing potion does its best work when you're down for the punch and can't activate it yourself. No worries. The time-honored tradition of pouring a potion down your wounded friend's gullet is still in the game. Your companion spends an Interact basic action to administer the potion to you, but you still need to spend Resonance to gain the potion's effect (thankfully, you don't have to be conscious to do so).

Of course, this new flexibility for potions allows us to keep some items that in First Edition were called elixirs (a term that in the Playtest, we now use for alchemical concoctions). Here's one of my favorites:

Dragon's Breath Potion Item 7+

Consumable, Evocation, Magical, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


This liquid contains blood from a certain breed of dragon. For 1 hour after you imbibe the acrid concoction, you can unleash a breath weapon used by that breed of dragon. The potion's level and Price, as well as the amount of damage and the DC of the saving throw, all depend on the age of the dragon whose blood you used. This item has the trait matching the damage type of the breath weapon.

You can spend another Operate Activation action with no RP cost immediately after drinking the potion to exhale dragon breath. At any point during the potion's duration, you can use the breath weapon by spending 1 RP and 2 Operate Activation actions (one to inhale the necessary air and the other to breathe out). After you use the breath weapon, you can't do so again for 1d4 rounds.

Each creature in the area of the breath weapon attempts a save against your breath weapon.

Success Half damage.

Critical Success No damage.

Failure Full damage.

Critical Failure Double damage.

Type young; Level 7; Price 45 gp; Damage 4d6; DC 21

Type adult; Level 12;

Price 250 gp; Damage 7d6; DC 28

Type wyrm; Level 17; Price 2,000 gp; Damage 10d6; DC 35

Dragon Breath Weapon (Save)

Black or copper 30-foot line of acid (Reflex)
Blue or bronze 30-foot line of electricity (Reflex)
Brass 30-foot line of fire (Reflex)
Green 15-foot cone of poison (Fortitude)
Gold or red 15-foot cone of fire (Reflex)
Silver or white 15-foot cone of cold (Reflex)

This one is interesting because you spend Resonance when you first drink the potion and spew some draconic hate on your foes, and can then continue to do so for an hour after imbibing whenever you spend actions and RP. Pick the right kind of dragon, and you'll be the life of whatever party you join.

Very closely related to potions are oils. Like potions, you activate these consumable items, but you do so by applying the oil to an object or person. While it usually takes one hand to drink or administer a potion, applying oil takes two hands. This particular oil may be of interest to shield users.

Oil of Mending Item 3

Consumable, Magical, Oil, Transmutation

Price 6 gp

Method of Use held, 2 hands; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


Applying this oil to an item casts a 2nd-level mending spell that repairs the item. If the item was broken, it is no longer broken. If the item has Dents, it loses those Dents. This restoration doesn't restore lost pieces. For instance, if used on a text with missing pages, it wouldn't recreate the lost pages.

A perfect backup when you fail your Crafting check to Repair an Item, or when you need to repair that dented shield in a hurry, the oil of mending has plenty of other uses.

Well, that's it for this week! Join us next week as we take a little walk in the woods.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest
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Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
As to why I would want it in the game, I think I've covered that before. More latitude on party structure, more latitude on spell selections, more time adventuring and less retreating after a 15 min day, ect.

For the record, I don't think any of this is incompatible with Resonance or something like it. Resonance doesn't directly add to it generally speaking, but it usually doesn't take away from it either. I feel like even the '15 minute adventuring day' is much more dependent on offensive resources running out than anything else, and Resonance effects that very little.


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graystone wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
good choice

I think we've come to the crux of the issue: you're making a judgment call on it's being good or bad. Myself, I'm saying it is without a judgment as far as 'glitch' goes.

As to why I would want it in the game, I think I've covered that before. More latitude on party structure, more latitude on spell selections, more time adventuring and less retreating after a 15 min day, ect. For me, taking CLW wands away is a detriment to the game without any redeeming purpose. I don't find the out of combat 'meaningful resource management of hp attrition' fun as some seem to. It ranks up there with counting individual bat guano in a component bag or how many rations I have in a bag.

Well I don't equate it the same as spell components and rations. I see plenty of plus sides to it especially from a DM perspective. I see the 15 min adventuring day as an exaggeration. I for sure don't feel like characters should be able to go on fight after fight indefinitely. It seems to me your idea game is one where your fully healed and have all your resources back after every encounter and for me I feel its more of a matter of managing your resources over the course of a day.

It reminds me to much of the posts of people that don't even want to have HP at all. It makes me think they just want to attack endlessly and never encounter any real danger or risk their character. They basically want to just go on a long killing spree without any risk and all the rewards.

Also as far as time retreating. That is kind of meaningless. All you have to do is move the characters to the next day you don't have to actually wait a real life day for them to recover. combat might take 20+ minutes but you can have the characters camp eat etc. in like 5 minutes or less.

managing resources is and has been one of the biggest factors of D&D since its inception. What your talking about is a different game all together. Don't even start by saying the wands make it so they you don't have to manage Hp and that proves me wrong because the whole point is that IS the problem with the wands.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
For the record, I don't think any of this is incompatible with Resonance or something like it.

You and I see things VERY differently then. The wand allowed a caster to pick fun/interesting spells and let the wand to the healing. It allowed the fighter to help with healing and made a rogue only party a thing. It 100% allow us to keep going when we had other resources but whre low on hp. I'm not seeing those possible with Resonance. Medicine might fill in partially but it seems like it'll require some serious investment in feats, skill upgrades and time to heal.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
I feel like even the '15 minute adventuring day' is much more dependent on offensive resources running out than anything else, and Resonance effects that very little.

Maybe there is a difference in playstyle, but from the healing we use to get through until "offensive resources running out", we'd need a few dedicated healers to match it [or a really tricked out, super specialised healer].

Vidmaster7 wrote:
I for sure don't feel like characters should be able to go on fight after fight indefinitely.

That's what "offensive resources" are for, to quote Deadmanwalking. Out of combat healing isn't in that pool.

Vidmaster7 wrote:
managing resources is and has been one of the biggest factors of D&D since its inception.

I don't agree. Look at the spell component pouch once: it's sole reason for existence is to avoid resource management. There is a clear divide between fun/interesting to manage pools and those that aren't. For me, out of combat hp isn't one of them. Now hp IN combat are something to manage, but we aren't talking about that.

Vidmaster7 wrote:
What your talking about is a different game all together.

This IMO is getting might close to badwrongfun. It's the game I've been playing for years and you're saying I'm doing it wrong?


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graystone wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
For the record, I don't think any of this is incompatible with Resonance or something like it.

You and I see things VERY differently then. The wand allowed a caster to pick fun/interesting spells and let the wand to the healing. It allowed the fighter to help with healing and made a rogue only party a thing. It 100% allow us to keep going when we had other resources but whre low on hp. I'm not seeing those possible with Resonance. Medicine might fill in partially but it seems like it'll require some serious investment in feats, skill upgrades and time to heal.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
I feel like even the '15 minute adventuring day' is much more dependent on offensive resources running out than anything else, and Resonance effects that very little.

Maybe there is a difference in playstyle, but from the healing we use to get through until "offensive resources running out", we'd need a few dedicated healers to match it [or a really tricked out, super specialised healer].

Vidmaster7 wrote:
I for sure don't feel like characters should be able to go on fight after fight indefinitely.

That's what "offensive resources" are for, to quote Deadmanwalking. Out of combat healing isn't in that pool.

Vidmaster7 wrote:
managing resources is and has been one of the biggest factors of D&D since its inception.

I don't agree. Look at the spell component pouch once: it's sole reason for existence is to avoid resource management. There is a clear divide between fun/interesting to manage pools and those that aren't. For me, out of combat hp isn't one of them. Now hp IN combat are something to manage, but we aren't talking about that.

Vidmaster7 wrote:
What your talking about is a different game all together.
This IMO is getting might close to badwrongfun. It's the game I've been playing for years and you're saying I'm doing it wrong?

We've been through this but I think few people play the game "right" As in exact to every rule (deadman is probably one of them and there probably is a decent amount of people in that boat) But a lot of people play with house rules whether they know it or not. Its wrong in that its not identical to the rule book. In that sense I play wrong too. doesn't mean its bad you can totally play with as many house rules as you want. No one is going to arrest you and take your books away for it. If you do it its probably the funner way you know how to play. Its only wrong in that Its not how that game was made to work. the whole wand and to a lesser extent potions(mostly because its harder to justify carrying around 2000 potions as opposed to 50 wands) came about because in 1 and 2nd you pretty well got what Items dropped. There was no way you were going to end up with 50 wands of CLW. It just wasn't probably but in 3rd you could make them but it cost EXP so probably still not being used as much but now in Pathfinder it is just money. and not a lot of money so it created this weird side thing with the wands.

The other downside to which you reminded me. Is characters are encouraged to build very offensive in PF1 Because defense matters less if your going to be full healed at the end of every fight. So that right there alone makes defense a worse idea. Defense build and defensive feats become less useful so it makes the system lean towards offense instead of a balanced build which limits it as a whole.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Its wrong in that its not identical to the rule book.

I do play identical to the books... That's why we use CLW wands. TO not do so is houseruling. What you're saying is I'm playing a different game when I'm playing it by the rules. IMO, you're saying I should houserule it to play your way? I don't get your point. What you call a "weird side thing", I call the single biggest thing that opened up party structure and allowed to unshackle it from a dedicated healer: a boon, not an unwanted glitch.

As to builds, I've seen all kinds, offensive, defensive [full plate/tower shield + tower shield style] and mixed. I haven't seen the 100% offense kill/kill/kill characters: when you don't have a main healer, defense is MORE important because you don't have the big heal if you take that heavy pick crit, it's harder to get rid of conditions, ect. So IMO, it makes things more balanced. With a healer, THEN people go full kill mode.


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graystone wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Its wrong in that its not identical to the rule book.

I do play identical to the books... That's why we use CLW wands. TO not do so is houseruling. What you're saying is I'm playing a different game when I'm playing it by the rules. IMO, you're saying I should houserule it to play your way? I don't get your point. What you call a "weird side thing", I call the single biggest thing that opened up party structure and allowed to unshackle it from a dedicated healer: a boon, not an unwanted glitch.

As to builds, I've seen all kinds, offensive, defensive [full plate/tower shield + tower shield style] and mixed. I haven't seen the 100% offense kill/kill/kill characters: when you don't have a main healer, defense is MORE important because you don't have the big heal if you take that heavy pick crit, it's harder to get rid of conditions, ect. So IMO, it makes things more balanced. With a healer, THEN people go full kill mode.

I guess I can't explain it to you. I don't think your trying to understand where I''m coming from and instead are just worried about making the best argument. Your mind just goes to anything that makes it play your way is good. I'm trying to look at a bigger picture of what makes since to me. I can't even relate to what your trying to say so this is pointless.

Also Like literally almost every guide and advice you find is always talking about neglecting defense for offense. (take this feat because it lets you kill things faster etc) I don't even know how you can try and argue against that with a straight face. I can't do anything with that.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
I'm trying to look at a bigger picture of what makes since to me.

Have you considered that I'M looking at the bigger picture and what makes sense to me?

Vidmaster7 wrote:
Also Like literally almost every guide and advice you find is always talking about neglecting defense for offense.

I'll take your word for it [I don't really read them]. I'm just giving my experience. If you are relying on CLW for healing, you want to avoid big hits and conditions. It's just logical. Maybe the guides are written in a vacuum and/or that expect a life oracle super healer?

Vidmaster7 wrote:
I don't even know how you can try and argue against that with a straight face.

I'm curious why it seems so foreign. It's not odd/uncommon and I have a pretty large online pool of people as a sample size. There isn't a 'one size fits all' approach, especially with a non standard party. I find it odd that you have never met anyone that didn't put 100% of their resources into offence. I even know someone that didn't take power attack! 'gasp!'


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graystone wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
I'm trying to look at a bigger picture of what makes since to me.

Have you considered that I'M looking at the bigger picture and what makes sense to me?

Vidmaster7 wrote:
Also Like literally almost every guide and advice you find is always talking about neglecting defense for offense.

I'll take your word for it [I don't really read them]. I'm just giving my experience. If you are relying on CLW for healing, you want to avoid big hits and conditions. It's just logical. Maybe the guides are written in a vacuum and/or that expect a life oracle super healer?

Vidmaster7 wrote:
I don't even know how you can try and argue against that with a straight face.
I'm curious why it seems so foreign. It's not odd/uncommon and I have a pretty large online pool of people as a sample size. There isn't a 'one size fits all' approach, especially with a non standard party. I find it odd that you have never met anyone that didn't put 100% of their resources into offence. I even know someone that didn't take power attack! 'gasp!'

I don't actually believe you had someone who could benefit from power attack not take it nope that is just not a thing unless your being tricksy and they took that dex-based power attack instead.

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
You and I see things VERY differently then. The wand allowed a caster to pick fun/interesting spells and let the wand to the healing. It allowed the fighter to help with healing and made a rogue only party a thing. It 100% allow us to keep going when we had other resources but whre low on hp. I'm not seeing those possible with Resonance. Medicine might fill in partially but it seems like it'll require some serious investment in feats, skill upgrades and time to heal.

Uh...Wands can still do pretty much all of that in PF2. They do so at a cost, but it's not an unpayable one by any means. Other resources (like Medicine being an option for non-casters to heal with, and how Channel Energy works allowing Clerics to prepare 0 healing spells and be fine) also enable several of these things.

graystone wrote:
Maybe there is a difference in playstyle, but from the healing we use to get through until "offensive resources running out", we'd need a few dedicated healers to match it [or a really tricked out, super specialised healer].

I suspect you would not. The way healing works, even aside from Resonance, is actually quite different in PF2. I've mentioned previously how powerful using a Wand to do area healing is in PF2, but it bears repeating. Healing everyone completely is very doable even sans dedicated healer.

There also seems to be more damage mitigation available (shields being a sterling example), which decreases the total healing needed.


Vidmaster7 wrote:

I don't actually believe you had someone who could benefit from power attack not take it nope that is just not a thing unless your being tricksy and they took that dex-based power attack instead.

Nope. That full plate/tower shield guy didn't take it. He used mancatchers to grapple/hold/move creatures and he had a feat or ability to shield others with that tower shield. Grappling with reach is a nasty thing: it's not grrr power/offense though.


graystone wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:

I don't actually believe you had someone who could benefit from power attack not take it nope that is just not a thing unless your being tricksy and they took that dex-based power attack instead.

Nope. That full plate/tower shield guy didn't take it. He used mancatchers to grapple/hold/move creatures and he had a feat or ability to shield others with that tower shield. Grappling with reach is a nasty thing: it's not grrr power/offense though.

I'm not going to lie that actually sounds like a fun build I just have to think versus larger enemies your gonna be screwed with the grappling.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Uh...Wands can still do pretty much all of that in PF2.

I'm not seeing it. Going off the staff, a wand most likely has a cost to get charges and the a cost to use: I don't see getting a lot of use out of it a day.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Medicine

Already gave my thoughts on this.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Channel Energy

It's a nice ability if you play a cleric. If you're expecting everyone to have one, they became the new default healer.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
I've mentioned previously how powerful using a Wand to do area healing is in PF2, but it bears repeating. Healing everyone completely is very doable even sans dedicated healer.

Maybe, but how many time is my question. To me, it seems like you'll run out before those offensive abilities do [especially after you pay to be able to use your other items before you even get to charges]

Deadmanwalking wrote:
There also seems to be more damage mitigation available (shields being a sterling example), which decreases the total healing needed.

Maybe, but those take actions,or resource, and they break some lucky hits and you're shieldless. Or you take non combat damage. Or a touch spell. It's iffy how much actual mitigation you'll actually have.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Going to back Graystone up on the diversity of play points. My group plays extra cautiously without a healer, and certainly don't go all out on damage. They're constantly trying to get their hands on AC boosts and talk their way out of fights, because they know there's inherent risk in relying on wands.

Also, what's this horse dookie about no-one passing up Power Attack? I know two players in my current campaign who didn't take it when the math says they should have, and more in previous campaigns.

Furthermore, the people I've told about Resonance think it's weird and don't want much to do with it.

Please keep in mind that non-one's experiences are universal. Graystone and I don't want our experiences swept under the rug of "wrong" just because others have different experiences.


WatersLethe wrote:

Going to back Graystone up on the diversity of play points. My group plays extra cautiously without a healer, and certainly don't go all out on damage. They're constantly trying to get their hands on AC boosts and talk their way out of fights, because they know there's inherent risk in relying on wands.

Also, what's this horse dookie about no-one passing up Power Attack? I know two players in my current campaign who didn't take it when the math says they should have, and more in previous campaigns.

Furthermore, the people I've told about Resonance think it's weird and don't want much to do with it.

Please keep in mind that non-one's experiences are universal. Graystone and I don't want our experiences swept under the rug of "wrong" just because others have different experiences.

The power attack comment was tongue and cheek but you don't know me well enough to know that so I'll let ya slide this time.


I did have one other question however. If your always healed up at no cost after combat what is the point of traps? Unless there always made to deal lethal damage.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
I'm not going to lie that actually sounds like a fun build I just have to think versus larger enemies your gonna be screwed with the grappling.

He did pretty good until the group broke up at 10th level. He seemed to hold his own vs larger creatures, the only issue is that you need a different mancatcher for each size so he had his 'golfbag' of mancatchers. If he had trouble, I'd Ray of Enfeeblement or bull strength or the large Eidolon tentacle mass aberration jumped in to help. Good times. ;)


Vidmaster7 wrote:
I did have one other question however. If your always healed up at no cost after combat what is the point of traps? Unless there always made to deal lethal damage.

Traps cause conditions: poisoned, charmed, enfeebles, stunned, diseased... [or set off an alarm] I'd find traps that just cause damage kind of lame.


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graystone wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
I did have one other question however. If your always healed up at no cost after combat what is the point of traps? Unless there always made to deal lethal damage.
Traps cause conditions: poisoned, charmed, enfeebles, stunned, diseased... [or set off an alarm] I'd find traps that just cause damage kind of lame.

Well yeah damage traps are gonna feel lame if all you have to do is pull out a wand to heal the damage.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Vidmaster7 wrote:
I did have one other question however. If your always healed up at no cost after combat what is the point of traps? Unless there always made to deal lethal damage.

Healing does have a cost albeit smaller than some people want. My players appear to be far more sensitive to consumable costs than other groups. So getting hit by a pure damage trap does make them act more cautiously to avoid more. To be honest though, I have never thought of pure damage traps as very interesting.

Traps I use threaten to divide the party, stall them, put lasting debuffs on them, expend utility spells like dispell magic, or shake them up.

Furthermore, when I run games where access to Ye Olde Wand Shoppe is restricted, a trap that does a significant amount of damage is a huge threat if they're relying on a wand. They can sleep to get back heals. Sleeping doesn't recharge a wand.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Well yeah damage traps are gonna feel lame if all you have to do is pull out a wand to heal the damage.

No, in games without a wand, damage traps still feel lame. They are pure speed bumps with little redeeming value: they are about as unfun as possible. Seriously, the wand isn't a factor here, pure damage traps don't hold much excitement for me. You find a bunch and you throw out a fast healing/dr summon that goes around and just trips them [which is easier than the wand and cheaper!!!]


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graystone wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Well yeah damage traps are gonna feel lame if all you have to do is pull out a wand to heal the damage.
No, in games without a wand, damage traps still feel lame. They are pure speed bumps with little redeeming value: they are about as unfun as possible. Seriously, the wand isn't a factor here, pure damage traps don't hold much excitement for me. You find a bunch and you throw out a fast healing/dr summon that goes around and just trips them [which is easier than the wand and cheaper!!!]

We buy pigs.... (ok that was just the one time and I feel really bad for the pig. after that it was only low level evil humanoids)


Vidmaster7 wrote:
We buy pigs.... (ok that was just the one time and I feel really bad for the pig. after that it was only low level evil humanoids)

Pigs cost money! Though I guess you can have lunch so it's not a total loss.

Another way is to buy boots of earth, put them on a barbarian or other high hp character and them have them walk through said traps. Barbarian then stands around until they are healed up and then the adventure continues.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
graystone wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Well yeah damage traps are gonna feel lame if all you have to do is pull out a wand to heal the damage.
No, in games without a wand, damage traps still feel lame. They are pure speed bumps with little redeeming value: they are about as unfun as possible. Seriously, the wand isn't a factor here, pure damage traps don't hold much excitement for me. You find a bunch and you throw out a fast healing/dr summon that goes around and just trips them [which is easier than the wand and cheaper!!!]
We buy pigs.... (ok that was just the one time and I feel really bad for the pig. after that it was only low level evil humanoids)

Don't feel bad. Pigs are intelligent creatures; that's why we have so many different ways to eat them, to keep them from rising up against us.


Don't worry about it. With these traps, you can buy a bag of live bait (earthworms and such) and fling them around to trigger traps. Just don't rely on rocks or 10' poles. As non-creatures that has a 0% chance of working.


I wonder if being Festooned With Chickens will be a thing again... sounds like a Gnome Ancestry Feat.

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
I'm not seeing it. Going off the staff, a wand most likely has a cost to get charges and the a cost to use: I don't see getting a lot of use out of it a day.

They're a consumable. The only cost beyond 1 Resonance per use is the cost to buy them. All evidence on this point is pretty strong.

graystone wrote:
Already gave my thoughts on this.

I'm aware, and in isolation it's not sufficient, but it isn't in isolation.

graystone wrote:
It's a nice ability if you play a cleric. If you're expecting everyone to have one, they became the new default healer.

I'm not. I'm noting that, for people who do want to play a Cleric, it solves one of the problems you mention by basically handling all your healing needs (or most of them anyway), meaning you need no spell investment to heal.

graystone wrote:
Maybe, but how many time is my question. To me, it seems like you'll run out before those offensive abilities do [especially after you pay to be able to use your other items before you even get to charges]

How much damage do your PCs actually take in a day at, say, 8th level? Is it north of 100 HP each? Because that actually doesn't match my experience at all, and DPR is down a bit, if anything, in PF2.

graystone wrote:
Maybe, but those take actions,or resource, and they break some lucky hits and you're shieldless. Or you take non combat damage. Or a touch spell. It's iffy how much actual mitigation you'll actually have.

Sure, again taken in isolation it'd be insufficient, but also again it's one of several contributing factors.


As much as I hate resonance as a mechanic, I can't see the problem with a party without healing not being optimal. There are a milion and one party composition that are not optimal, as is not optimal to play without any arcane magic or without any robust frontliner. You just play different and scale threat accordingly, like in any other case.

If half the effort spent on this resonance b*##&&&* was spent on making healing classes actually fun to play, PF2 would be way better.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Dekalinder wrote:


If half the effort spent on this resonance b@~!++!% was spent on making healing classes actually fun to play, PF2 would be way better.

Thankfully they seem to have spend at least an equal amount of effort of doing exactly that! Well at least to me the new Cleric sounds very appealing.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Healing would need to simultaneously be both much more powerful and much more engaging, and I don't see that happening.

Even with things like Channel energy 9 times out of 10 healing during a combat is a losing proposition.


Trekkie90909 wrote:

I really liked the weapons descriptions until we hit vorpal; I HOPE that the focus activation is intended to occur after the trigger, and isn't something you have to do to prime the trigger; both are bad but this is probably a necessary balance change if vorpal is to 'only' cost 15 k gp. Since we now know the better weapon abilities will be gated with extra action requirements, I assume that two weapon fighter fans should again play another system? Or can multiple weapons be activated simultaneously? Will that have a feat tax? Is vorpal pretty much the only ability which is so gated, and therefore this line of questioning is pointless?

Armor: If resonance is supposed to replace the x/day stuff in items, why are armor abilities still written with x/day stuff. So now I have a tax on my mock spell points to even gain any benefit from my expensive item, I have an additional tax to use it, and it works the same as it would without the mock spell point system. Why? It might as well not be magical.

I had about talked myself into giving resonance a try before reading all this, becaue I think with a lot of changes it could be made into a fun roleplay aspect of the game, but I get a distinct window's vista vibe from all this. Hello pop-up windows asking if you really want to perform an action, asking if you really meant to hit yes, and still not working right.

Keep in mind that PF2 is switching to a silver standard, so 15k gp = 150gp in PF1.


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lordcirth wrote:
Keep in mind that PF2 is switching to a silver standard, so 15k gp = 150gp in PF1.

They've said they were switching to the 'silver standard' but every price I've seen is still listed in Gold Pieces... so that was just so much propaganda. All they seem to've done is knock a zero off of most of their formulae. In play; I expect that copper and silver pieces will still only be used to make change when selling junk worth less than 10 gold. Since I also expect starfinder's 'loot sells for 10%' rule to crop up in Pathfinder 2 (not that being allowed to sell junk for half its market value ever made much sense).


Cantriped wrote:
lordcirth wrote:
Keep in mind that PF2 is switching to a silver standard, so 15k gp = 150gp in PF1.
They've said they were switching to the 'silver standard' but every price I've seen is still listed in Gold Pieces... so that was just so much propaganda. All they seem to've done is knock a zero off of most of their formulae. In play; I expect that copper and silver pieces will still only be used to make change when selling junk worth less than 10 gold. Since I also expect starfinder's 'loot sells for 10%' rule to crop up in Pathfinder 2 (not that being allowed to sell junk for half its market value ever made much sense).

For magic items, they use prices in gp, but the point of the silver standard wasn't to Ctr-F find and replace gp with sp, but to make the world more sensical, where you don't have commoners walking around with gold coins (and probably to beef up the purchasing power of said commoners, but that's just a guess).

Also, I'm not sure the "loot sells for 10%" will make it to PF2e. I haven't played much starfinder, but presumably, since it's sci-fi, you see a greater degree of mass production and distribution, to the point that resale value is going to, by nature, be pretty low. Now, perhaps 50% resale is a bit excessive in PF, but it seems more reasonable that you see a higher sale value, relative to market price in a pre-industrial economy.


Tholomyes wrote:
For magic items, they use prices in gp, but the point of the silver standard wasn't to Ctr-F find and replace gp with sp, but to make the world more sensical, where you don't have commoners walking around with gold coins (and probably to beef up the purchasing power of said commoners, but that's just a guess).

So far I've yet to see anything listed in Silver Pieces. Also, every other system I've played that used a silver-standard noted the costs in Silver Pieces; even when otherwise using the basic d20 currency system, or the item cost 8,000 sp (aka 80 pp).

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