Potency and Potions

Friday, June 29, 2018

Earlier this week, Logan gave you the skinny on Resonance and how it interacts with some iconic and all-new magic items. If you missed out on Logan's explanation of Resonance, you might want to take a look here before reading on, because we're going to come back to it at the end of the blog. You got how Resonance works? Good. Now forget about it, we're going to talk about weapons instead.

Potency and Properties

Unlike items with the invested trait or ones that you activate, weapons typically require no Resonance to use. You just pick one up and swing (or shoot, or sling, or thrust, or throw), and the magic weapon unleashes its punch, often with potency. Think as a weapon's potency as its "plus" and more. Potency still grants an item bonus to your attack rolls with the weapon, but now it also increases the damage dealt by an additional weapon die for each point of potency bonus. For example, let's say you find a +1 longsword buried in an otyugh's dung heap. Regardless of its current soiling, that weapon grants not only a +1 item bonus to attack rolls, but on a successful hit it deals 2d8 + Strength modifier damage, instead of the standard 1d8 + Strength modifier. A +2 longsword would instead grant a +2 item bonus to attacks and deal 3d8 + Strength modifier damage, and so on.

Of course, potency is only a part of the story. Magic weapons can also have properties. The maximum potency and the number of properties a weapon can have are based on that weapon's quality. Standard weapons can't have potency or properties, while expert-quality weapons can have up to +2 potency and one property. Master-quality weapons can have up to +4 potency and two properties, and legendary weapons can be +5 weapons and have three properties. Sometimes, special materials can affect the number of properties a magic weapon can possess. Since cold iron resists magic, weapons made of cold iron have one fewer property. Conversely, weapons made of highly magical orichalcum can have one additional property, but because the metal is so rare and difficult to work, these weapons must be legendary.

Both potency and property are imbued within a suitable weapon by etching magical runes upon it. Runes can be fairly easily removed or added (assuming the quality of the weapon allows it), and can even be found etched on a runestone, allowing them to be transferred separately from a weapon. Say you just found a handful of weapon property runestones in your adventure. What properties might they be? Well, let's take a look at one of the favorites of good and undead-hating clerics.

Disrupting Rune 5+

Method of Use etched, melee weapon


A disrupting weapon deals extra damage to undead. Undead hit by an attack with a disrupting weapon takes extra positive damage and additional effects on a critical hit.

Type standard; Level 5; Price 150 gp

The weapon deals 1d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Type greater; Level 15 (Uncommon), Price 6,200 gp

The weapon deals 2d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead creature must attempt a DC 32 Fortitude save with the following effects.

Success The target is enfeebled 2 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Success The target is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Failure The target is enfeebled 3 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Failure The target is destroyed.

The disrupting property comes in two varieties. The standard disrupting property deals some positive damage and can enfeeble undead. The greater version deals more positive damage, and can force undead to attempt a save—if they critically fail that save, they're destroyed outright!

Of course, other types of properties can do even more incredible things. Sometimes, these properties can require an expenditure of resonance.

Vorpal Rune 17

Evocation, Magical

Price 15,000 gp

Method of Use etched, melee weapon that deals slashing damage

Activation [[R]] Focus Activation; Trigger You roll a natural 20 and critically succeed at a Strike with the weapon targeting a creature with at least one head.


When you activate a vorpal weapon, the triggering creature must succeed at a DC 35 Fortitude save, or it is decapitated. This kills any creature except ones that don't require a head to live (such as constructs, oozes, and some aberrations and undead). For creatures with multiple heads (such as ettins or hydras), this usually kills the creature only if you sever its lasthead.

If, like the vorpal property, a weapon property has an activation, you have to spend Resonance to activate it; however, unlike worn items, you don't have to already be attuned to a weapon to activate it. So roll those 20s and snicker-snack your opponents for as long as you've got the resonance to spare.

Armor Potency and Properties

Magic armor also features potency and may have properties. Like weapons, armor can hold a maximum amount of potency and properties based on its quality and special materials, and you can add, remove, or transfer potency and properties between armor via runes. The maximum potency and number of properties for armor is the same as for weapons, though it's worth noting that rather than granting an additional property, orichalcum armor instead grants a +1 circumstance bonus to initiative rolls and automatically repairs itself over time.

Armor potency grants an item bonus to AC (including Touch Armor Class) and to your saving throws. Magic and high-quality armors are also easier to use. Armors of expert quality have their armor check penalty reduced by one, while master-quality armors have their penalty reduced by two, and legendary armor by three.

Like other worn items, you must invest armor; that is, you have to spend resonance to gain its magical effects. If your armor has an activated property, you must have invested the armor before you can use that ability. Let's look at an example of such a property.

Invisibility Rune 8+

Illusion, Magical

Method of Use etched, light armor

Activation [[A]] Command Activation


Once per day, you can whisper the command word to become invisible for 1 minute, gaining the effects of a 2nd-level invisibilityspell.

Type standard; Level 8; Price 500 gp

Type greater; Level 10; Price 1,000 gp

You can activate the armor up to 3 times per day.

Craft Requirements You must supply a casting of invisibility.

This favored property of many rangers and rogues (and maybe a sneaky alchemist or two) allows the attuned creature to gain the benefit of an invisibility spell at the cost of an action and 1 RP. The greater version enables you to activate the armor three times a day instead of just once.

But not all properties feature activations or require expending Resonance beyond that spent for initial attunement. Here's a classic example of one—fortification.

Fortification Rune 12+

Abjuration, Magical

Method of Use etched, medium or heavy armor


Each time you're hit by a critical hit while wearing fortification armor, attempt a flat check with the listed DC. If you succeed, that critical hit becomes a normal hit. This property thickens the armor, increasing its Bulk by 1.

Type standard; Level 12; Price 2,000 gp; DC 17

Type greater; Level 18; Price 24,000 gp; DC 14

Granting medium and heavy armor users the possibility to transform a critical hit to a normal hit, fortification provides an excellent constant effect for fighters, paladins, and more martial-focused clerics.

Potions

Now that you know how magic weapons and armor work, let's talk a look at something much less permanent, but often useful in a pinch—potions! While in First Edition, potions were spells of 3rd level or lower in a bottle; we wanted to go a slightly different route this time. Potions not only can have effects that reach into higher levels, but they also don't need to be tied to particular spell effects. All of that said, there are just some potions that are so iconic and necessary, you can't mess with them too much. Who doesn't need a healing potion every now and then?

Healing Potion Item 1+

Consumable, Healing, Magical, Necromancy, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


When you drink a healing potion, you regain the listed number of Hit Points.

Type minor; Level 1; Price 3 gp

The potion restores 1d8 Hit Points.

Type lesser; Level 3; Price 8 gp

The potion restores 2d8+4 Hit Points.

Type moderate; Level 5; Price 20 gp

The potion restores 3d8+8 Hit Points.

Type greater; Level 8; Price 60 gp

The potion restores 5d8+12 Hit Points.

Type major; Level 12; Price 250 gp

The potion restores 7d8+20 Hit Points.

Type true; Level 16; Price 1,200 gp

The potion restores 9d8+30 Hit Points.

The first thing you'll notice is that there are six varieties of this point, ranging from level 1 (restoring 1d8 Hit Points) to level 16 (restoring 9d8+20 Hit Points) You'll also notice that this potion (and all potions) has an activation. Which, you guessed it, means you have to spend Resonance to gain its effect.

Of course, sometimes a healing potion does its best work when you're down for the punch and can't activate it yourself. No worries. The time-honored tradition of pouring a potion down your wounded friend's gullet is still in the game. Your companion spends an Interact basic action to administer the potion to you, but you still need to spend Resonance to gain the potion's effect (thankfully, you don't have to be conscious to do so).

Of course, this new flexibility for potions allows us to keep some items that in First Edition were called elixirs (a term that in the Playtest, we now use for alchemical concoctions). Here's one of my favorites:

Dragon's Breath Potion Item 7+

Consumable, Evocation, Magical, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


This liquid contains blood from a certain breed of dragon. For 1 hour after you imbibe the acrid concoction, you can unleash a breath weapon used by that breed of dragon. The potion's level and Price, as well as the amount of damage and the DC of the saving throw, all depend on the age of the dragon whose blood you used. This item has the trait matching the damage type of the breath weapon.

You can spend another Operate Activation action with no RP cost immediately after drinking the potion to exhale dragon breath. At any point during the potion's duration, you can use the breath weapon by spending 1 RP and 2 Operate Activation actions (one to inhale the necessary air and the other to breathe out). After you use the breath weapon, you can't do so again for 1d4 rounds.

Each creature in the area of the breath weapon attempts a save against your breath weapon.

Success Half damage.

Critical Success No damage.

Failure Full damage.

Critical Failure Double damage.

Type young; Level 7; Price 45 gp; Damage 4d6; DC 21

Type adult; Level 12;

Price 250 gp; Damage 7d6; DC 28

Type wyrm; Level 17; Price 2,000 gp; Damage 10d6; DC 35

Dragon Breath Weapon (Save)

Black or copper 30-foot line of acid (Reflex)
Blue or bronze 30-foot line of electricity (Reflex)
Brass 30-foot line of fire (Reflex)
Green 15-foot cone of poison (Fortitude)
Gold or red 15-foot cone of fire (Reflex)
Silver or white 15-foot cone of cold (Reflex)

This one is interesting because you spend Resonance when you first drink the potion and spew some draconic hate on your foes, and can then continue to do so for an hour after imbibing whenever you spend actions and RP. Pick the right kind of dragon, and you'll be the life of whatever party you join.

Very closely related to potions are oils. Like potions, you activate these consumable items, but you do so by applying the oil to an object or person. While it usually takes one hand to drink or administer a potion, applying oil takes two hands. This particular oil may be of interest to shield users.

Oil of Mending Item 3

Consumable, Magical, Oil, Transmutation

Price 6 gp

Method of Use held, 2 hands; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


Applying this oil to an item casts a 2nd-level mending spell that repairs the item. If the item was broken, it is no longer broken. If the item has Dents, it loses those Dents. This restoration doesn't restore lost pieces. For instance, if used on a text with missing pages, it wouldn't recreate the lost pages.

A perfect backup when you fail your Crafting check to Repair an Item, or when you need to repair that dented shield in a hurry, the oil of mending has plenty of other uses.

Well, that's it for this week! Join us next week as we take a little walk in the woods.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest
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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The only difference I can see with the counting up is that you count up instead of down. That is it. Unless I'm missing something. Which is fine if you prefer it, some folks count damage up rather than HP down and that is fine too.


Tholomyes wrote:
Voss wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Azouth wrote:
Orichalcum that’s new.
It sounds a bit like a dental term.
Now I want to know what each of the special metals does when used as a cavity filling.
All I know is don't use Cold Iron, unless you want to have to explain to your kids that you accidentally killed the Tooth Fairy.
That raises a good question. What is even the point of cold iron? No benefits are mentioned, it is just... worse. Unless it ignores magic bonuses to defense or can cleave through walls of force, not sure why anyone would bother making a cold iron weapon.

That brings up a good point. Hitting a Vulnerablility: Cold Iron will probably mean a lot less than getting past DR/Cold Iron, and with the fact that magic weapons contribute far more in terms of damage, I suspect we won't see many people with a backup Cold Iron Longsword, for instance. Which I think is probably good, as I've never been one to care for the golf-bag-of-weapons thing, but it's sort of disappointing if I'm fighting a werewolf, and I know I could use an alchemical silver longsword, to hit its vulnerability, but I also know that my +2 Longsword will do more damage, anyway.

And also makes ranged attacks, potentially even more beneficial, since I can fire Cold Iron bolts from my +2 crossbow, and have them be both +2 and Cold Iron, when I'm fighting fey, and not have to choose one or the other, and then just use normal bolts when it doesn't matter, 'cause they're cheap, and then silver bolts when I fight that Werellama

I think that's one of the goals - to make golf-bag less required, and more of a nice bonus you get when you have the right weapon type. That's also assuming that a werewolf has vulnerability instead of resistance - by the flavour I'd expect resistance instead.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Cyouni wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
Voss wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Azouth wrote:
Orichalcum that’s new.
It sounds a bit like a dental term.
Now I want to know what each of the special metals does when used as a cavity filling.
All I know is don't use Cold Iron, unless you want to have to explain to your kids that you accidentally killed the Tooth Fairy.
That raises a good question. What is even the point of cold iron? No benefits are mentioned, it is just... worse. Unless it ignores magic bonuses to defense or can cleave through walls of force, not sure why anyone would bother making a cold iron weapon.

That brings up a good point. Hitting a Vulnerablility: Cold Iron will probably mean a lot less than getting past DR/Cold Iron, and with the fact that magic weapons contribute far more in terms of damage, I suspect we won't see many people with a backup Cold Iron Longsword, for instance. Which I think is probably good, as I've never been one to care for the golf-bag-of-weapons thing, but it's sort of disappointing if I'm fighting a werewolf, and I know I could use an alchemical silver longsword, to hit its vulnerability, but I also know that my +2 Longsword will do more damage, anyway.

And also makes ranged attacks, potentially even more beneficial, since I can fire Cold Iron bolts from my +2 crossbow, and have them be both +2 and Cold Iron, when I'm fighting fey, and not have to choose one or the other, and then just use normal bolts when it doesn't matter, 'cause they're cheap, and then silver bolts when I fight that Werellama

I think that's one of the goals - to make golf-bag less required, and more of a nice bonus you get when you have the right weapon type. That's also assuming that a werewolf has vulnerability instead of resistance - by the flavour I'd expect resistance instead.

I think for most things that were DR/one special thing they've changed that to Weakness. It feels better to have the right tool for the job doing more damage rather than the wrong tool doing less. Resistance now seems to be more generally reserved for things that resist a small subset of attacks (like Skeletons or Elementals say) rather than everything except one thing.


Varun Creed wrote:

What about?


  • Wands are not consumables any longer, but can cast their spell for a 1RP cost of the receiver.
  • Staffs are like wands, but have additional bonuses (such as enabling their spell(s) to be used spontaneously costing a spell slot instead of a RP).
  • No item has charges, but instead use RP to use. Staffs don't have charges that need to be recharged.
  • All characters have CHA + 1/2 lvl resonance points in their reservoir. No flat rolls for overspending, but simply: If you overspend, you gain/increase the Sick condition after 1 minute, which can only be recovered by sleeping for 8 hours.
  • A character can synchronize their spirit each day with worn items, for a maximum of their total resonance points. This does not use up a resonance point.
  • Potions cost a RP to create, nothing to use.

This counteracts the CLW wand spam as well, as any wand now costs resolve points. "Then what about high level parties buying up 100's of potions?" > I answer: what store will have 100's of potions anyhow?? It's more normal that a store has 1d4 or 1d6 of healing potions.


  • The wands change makes sense, and would be a good idea. I think the reason paizo didn't go with this is the issue of pricing such an item that lasts forever, and it's implications in the universe (if wands are good forever why doesn't everyone have one, after all there should be a surplus and they should have low prices).
  • Staves, I'd still have cost an RP to spontaneously cast, this prevents players from buying staves that have spells that they know they'll commonly use and use their prepared slot/spells known for other spells, when it should be the other way around (using staff spells for uncommon situations).
  • I disagree, like I pointed out in the first one, wands should have charges for the implication that bring.
    I also think staves should have charges but using charges to cast one of it's spells shouldn't cost RP, since that'd be consuming 2 resource pools which is overly punishing and weird.
  • Pass, I like the flat DC increase and the +level (which ties in with the fact that everything is getting a +level bonus, it'd be weird to have a +1/2 all of a sudden). It's also meshes with the idea of your "innate magic" fluctuating so your cap isn't fixed.
  • Investing should cost rp per item, which should be a separate system from RP, but I can see why in the playtest they kept in in the same system so that getting +level to the amount you can invest in doesn't shower you in investment points you won't use.
  • No. RP to create means nothing will be expended (since you can only create them in downtime mode which is a day typically, meaning no combat on the day you create, also punishes making potions in batches).
    Instead as a poster later gave the idea of, potions should be maximized to set themselves apart from their wand counterparts.

Overall while the current resonance system doesn't fill it's goals right now, I think it's a step in the right direction and I hope that the playtest helps highlight it's flaws and bring forth ideas to fix it.


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Malk_Content wrote:
The only difference I can see with the counting up is that you count up instead of down. That is it. Unless I'm missing something. Which is fine if you prefer it, some folks count damage up rather than HP down and that is fine too.

I think logistically, counting down is easier, because while it's not a hard subtraction problem, it's still another step to determine if you're trying to plan ahead in deciding whether this potion of Bull's Strength, or whatever, will be worth it. But for the immersiveness factor, counting up is probably what I will do, as it not only works better in the flavor of 'you're able to withstand the effects of magical items on you', but I like the flavor also of "as you level up, your magical tolerance increases" more than "as you level up, you get more innate magic points."


Tholomyes wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
The only difference I can see with the counting up is that you count up instead of down. That is it. Unless I'm missing something. Which is fine if you prefer it, some folks count damage up rather than HP down and that is fine too.
I think logistically, counting down is easier, because while it's not a hard subtraction problem, it's still another step to determine if you're trying to plan ahead in deciding whether this potion of Bull's Strength, or whatever, will be worth it. But for the immersiveness factor, counting up is probably what I will do, as it not only works better in the flavor of 'you're able to withstand the effects of magical items on you', but I like the flavor also of "as you level up, your magical tolerance increases" more than "as you level up, you get more innate magic points."

Except that resonance being your tolerance, and counting up, makes less sense, than it being your innate magic, and counting down as you use it.

Why? Because if you are hit by a spell your tolerance doesn't start building up for the day. And when using magic items amounts to casting spells on yourself, not having your tolerance be built up by spells getting cast on yourself breaks the idea of the system.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
willuwontu wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
The only difference I can see with the counting up is that you count up instead of down. That is it. Unless I'm missing something. Which is fine if you prefer it, some folks count damage up rather than HP down and that is fine too.
I think logistically, counting down is easier, because while it's not a hard subtraction problem, it's still another step to determine if you're trying to plan ahead in deciding whether this potion of Bull's Strength, or whatever, will be worth it. But for the immersiveness factor, counting up is probably what I will do, as it not only works better in the flavor of 'you're able to withstand the effects of magical items on you', but I like the flavor also of "as you level up, your magical tolerance increases" more than "as you level up, you get more innate magic points."

Except that resonance being your tolerance, and counting up, makes less sense, than it being your innate magic, and counting down as you use it.

Why? Because if you are hit by a spell your tolerance doesn't start building up for the day. And when using magic items amounts to casting spells on yourself, not having your tolerance be built up by spells getting cast on yourself breaks the idea of the system.

Magic has to be pretty close to you to affect your aura's tolerance. Just being affected by a spell doesn't do much. Activating a magic item, however, grounds some of the magic through your body.


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Crazy Idea:

Potions come in 6 types:

Minor (d4) 3gp
Lesser (d6) 8gp
Moderate (d8) 20gp
Greater (10) 60gp
Major (d12) 250 gp
True (special) 1,200 gp

When you drink one and spend 1 RP, you heal a number of corresponding dice equal to your character level.

The "True" potion either cures you of all HP damage, or, can be used to stabilize a dead character who has died within a number of rounds equal to their remaining resonance pool.


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Malk_Content wrote:
The only difference I can see with the counting up is that you count up instead of down. That is it. Unless I'm missing something. Which is fine if you prefer it, some folks count damage up rather than HP down and that is fine too.

Even that can be a tangible difference; after all, isn't it why we don't use thAC0 anymore? While in this case, it's a world-framing issue as opposed to the ease-of-use issue of thAC0, framing the Resonance as being something introduced into your body and your body having a tolerance limit could make all the difference in the world (though not likely given that that isn't Resonance's only issue).


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
graystone wrote:
Cthulhudrew wrote:
DM: "What's your bulk?"
Every time I see bulk come up in one of these thread makes me want to play the game less... :P
Are you just copy pasteing that comment at this point?

It would be easier at this point as almost every blog post has bulk snuck in someplace. It's hard to focus on things I might like when things I don't, like bulk, keep showing up... :P


KingOfAnything wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
The only difference I can see with the counting up is that you count up instead of down. That is it. Unless I'm missing something. Which is fine if you prefer it, some folks count damage up rather than HP down and that is fine too.
I think logistically, counting down is easier, because while it's not a hard subtraction problem, it's still another step to determine if you're trying to plan ahead in deciding whether this potion of Bull's Strength, or whatever, will be worth it. But for the immersiveness factor, counting up is probably what I will do, as it not only works better in the flavor of 'you're able to withstand the effects of magical items on you', but I like the flavor also of "as you level up, your magical tolerance increases" more than "as you level up, you get more innate magic points."

Except that resonance being your tolerance, and counting up, makes less sense, than it being your innate magic, and counting down as you use it.

Why? Because if you are hit by a spell your tolerance doesn't start building up for the day. And when using magic items amounts to casting spells on yourself, not having your tolerance be built up by spells getting cast on yourself breaks the idea of the system.

Magic has to be pretty close to you to affect your aura's tolerance. Just being affected by a spell doesn't do much. Activating a magic item, however, grounds some of the magic through your body.

More so if you drink it.

So if you drink too many potions, you might just magically blow up or something.


MerlinCross wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
The only difference I can see with the counting up is that you count up instead of down. That is it. Unless I'm missing something. Which is fine if you prefer it, some folks count damage up rather than HP down and that is fine too.
I think logistically, counting down is easier, because while it's not a hard subtraction problem, it's still another step to determine if you're trying to plan ahead in deciding whether this potion of Bull's Strength, or whatever, will be worth it. But for the immersiveness factor, counting up is probably what I will do, as it not only works better in the flavor of 'you're able to withstand the effects of magical items on you', but I like the flavor also of "as you level up, your magical tolerance increases" more than "as you level up, you get more innate magic points."

Except that resonance being your tolerance, and counting up, makes less sense, than it being your innate magic, and counting down as you use it.

Why? Because if you are hit by a spell your tolerance doesn't start building up for the day. And when using magic items amounts to casting spells on yourself, not having your tolerance be built up by spells getting cast on yourself breaks the idea of the system.

Magic has to be pretty close to you to affect your aura's tolerance. Just being affected by a spell doesn't do much. Activating a magic item, however, grounds some of the magic through your body.

More so if you drink it.

So if you drink too many potions, you might just magically blow up or something.

Or this is how spell blight comes back.


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Desna's Avatar wrote:

Put me down in the vehemently anti-resonance camp. When 2E was announced, I was excited, because I felt like Pathfinder could use a refresh and a facelift. However, a number of proposed changes have caused my excitement to diminish, predominant among them, resonance.

From what I've seen, resonance seems clunky, unwieldy, fiddly, strange to justify in-world, and just un-fun. I'll keep an open mind and playtest it, as I've pre-purchased the materials, but if anything close to resonance in its current form makes it to 2E, I'll houserule it out, completely, just stick with 1E, or migrate to another system.

Cost-benefit, resonance doesn't see worth it, or even close. As a DM, if I want less magic in my campaign, I'll hand out fewer magical items. If something this big within Pathfinder is changing due to abuses within Pathfinder Society, something is wrong.

To sum, resonance just feels...off, and I'm strongly opposed to it in its current iteration.

Emphasis mine You've said this better than I have over several posts in a number of threads.

I'm reading all the threads and wading through folks whittling down the minutiae, because they are reasonable, or just like the system.

I just really don't. Apart from the Archetypes-as-Feats (which was very disappointing) I have been pleasantly surprised by PF2e and positive - which as many will note is unusual for me. Resonance is a major departure to the ruleset. It is adding a layer to gameplay I sorely do not need.

I do not like folk spamming potions nor clicking CLW wands, but I do not have a solution. Adding a subsystem to address that might be ok, but Resonance is metastasizing and tendeiling into almost all items.

I'm feeling that all the reasonable folk are ensuring that we will get Resonance, which I do not want or need in my game, and the only change that will occur is the manner of Resonance we will get.

I don't like Resonance, as interesting as it might be, and do not want it in Pathfinder 2.


willuwontu wrote:
Varun Creed wrote:

What about?


  • Wands are not consumables any longer, but can cast their spell for a 1RP cost of the receiver.
  • Staffs are like wands, but have additional bonuses (such as enabling their spell(s) to be used spontaneously costing a spell slot instead of a RP).
  • No item has charges, but instead use RP to use. Staffs don't have charges that need to be recharged.
  • All characters have CHA + 1/2 lvl resonance points in their reservoir. No flat rolls for overspending, but simply: If you overspend, you gain/increase the Sick condition after 1 minute, which can only be recovered by sleeping for 8 hours.
  • A character can synchronize their spirit each day with worn items, for a maximum of their total resonance points. This does not use up a resonance point.
  • Potions cost a RP to create, nothing to use.

This counteracts the CLW wand spam as well, as any wand now costs resolve points. "Then what about high level parties buying up 100's of potions?" > I answer: what store will have 100's of potions anyhow?? It's more normal that a store has 1d4 or 1d6 of healing potions.

[list]

  • The wands change makes sense, and would be a good idea. I think the reason paizo didn't go with this is the issue of pricing such an item that lasts forever, and it's implications in the universe (if wands are good forever why doesn't everyone have one, after all there should be a surplus and they should have low prices).
  • Does the average NPC even have Resonance?


    Ninja in the Rye wrote:
    Does the average NPC even have Resonance?

    I figure it matters precisely as much as "what is the stealth score of this NPC". If it is relevant to what's going on, you write something down. Rules are not intended to be a perfect simulation of everything that happens- despite the turn structure it is possible for things on Golarion to occur simultaneously.


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    Player: I pour the healing potion down the throat of the dying commoner. What happens?
    DM: He dies!
    Player: Why?
    DM: Because he was only Lv1 and had 8 Cha, so had 0 resonance!

    Liberty's Edge

    Cantriped wrote:

    I'm talking about the local merchant too. Who, despite making about 36 gp per month, also spends 10 gp of that on their own cost of living. If they support a wife and child that might jump to 25 gp per month! (Adventurers are assumed to be single, do cost of living doesn't include extra mouths to feed... but life requires it)

    That leaves them a family fortune of 132-300 gp per working year, or about 2,640-6,000 gp over his entire career.

    This assumes he doesn't own a shop. That he sells things on the street. And sounds about right for that sort of vendor. If he owns a magic item shop (a specific building, with attached rules), he makes an additional 8.9 GP per day, for north of 55 gp a week.

    If he also owns a house, where, say, his spouse takes care of a lot of their basic needs, that goes up another 3.9 GP per day and makes it more like 75 gp per week. Even assuming expenses on par with 25 GP per month, that's 275 GP per month, and that's a net profit, not the cost of stock to replace what they sell.

    And someone with a house and a shop is usually who you sell your magic items to.

    Cantriped wrote:
    So yeah... you might find an old man that can buy your +1 Sword or Wand of CLW, but based on the profession rules it will sit on a shelf until his son sells it to a flush adventurer up to a decade later (making the majority of his "income" for those years all at once...). However no matter where you go you have to deal with the fact that any given normal merchant has to be persuaded to part with a significant portion of the family fortune to buy any given peice of your "magical crap".

    Again, the profession rules are net profit. If you sell a +1 sword but sink half your profits into replacing it, well, that's just part if the business. The only part that counts toward your income is what you keep.

    Cantriped wrote:
    The nobleman might have it even worse by RAW, their cost of living is ten times higher per mouth, but even being significantly higher level doesn't actually let you make that much more money using a background skill check. However since ostensibly a portion of everyone else's costs of living are taxes they pay to nobles... maybe they don't leverage the profession mechancs (or maybe they get an unfair advantage).

    A nobleman (a rich one anyway) generally owns a lot of property. As was just demonstrated owning a single house and business vastly increases your income. Now add in, say, five or six farms farmed by tenants, plus a manor house and you're suddenly talking incomes in the 10,000 GP per year range.

    Liberty's Edge

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    Dragon78 wrote:

    Player: I pour the healing potion down the throat of the dying commoner. What happens?

    DM: He dies!
    Player: Why?
    DM: Because he was only Lv1 and had 8 Cha, so had 0 resonance!

    They've noted Resonance has a minimum of 1.


    Actually I was assuming the merchant rents their spaces from the nobleman... owning land was what made you noble in feudal society. But street vending makes sense too. Wagons and most importantly horses are relatively cheap in PF1.

    I'm not familiar enough with the full downtime rules, and didn't want to learn them just for that example, but I don't recall having a house or spouse reducing your abstract cost of living (which explicitly includes paying all those silly fees, tolls, and rents). Or are you assuming that our fictional GM would allow something as metagamey as "Profession (Spouse)" being used to generate income?
    Otherwise we are talking about two professionals that pool their income instead, so of course they do better than one professional and one dependant (more than twice as well in fact). My example only assumed one professional in the family unit.


    So the days of seeding the starting adventure with plenty of healing potions, or a wand of CLW, is over. Back to the bad old days of the 15 minute work day. Can I say how much I hated that as a GM.

    Oh wait. I can just ignore this nonsense in my own campaign or switch to 5e.


    Ninja in the Rye wrote:
    willuwontu wrote:
    Varun Creed wrote:

    What about?


    • Wands are not consumables any longer, but can cast their spell for a 1RP cost of the receiver.
    • Staffs are like wands, but have additional bonuses (such as enabling their spell(s) to be used spontaneously costing a spell slot instead of a RP).
    • No item has charges, but instead use RP to use. Staffs don't have charges that need to be recharged.
    • All characters have CHA + 1/2 lvl resonance points in their reservoir. No flat rolls for overspending, but simply: If you overspend, you gain/increase the Sick condition after 1 minute, which can only be recovered by sleeping for 8 hours.
    • A character can synchronize their spirit each day with worn items, for a maximum of their total resonance points. This does not use up a resonance point.
    • Potions cost a RP to create, nothing to use.

    This counteracts the CLW wand spam as well, as any wand now costs resolve points. "Then what about high level parties buying up 100's of potions?" > I answer: what store will have 100's of potions anyhow?? It's more normal that a store has 1d4 or 1d6 of healing potions.

    [list]

  • The wands change makes sense, and would be a good idea. I think the reason paizo didn't go with this is the issue of pricing such an item that lasts forever, and it's implications in the universe (if wands are good forever why doesn't everyone have one, after all there should be a surplus and they should have low prices).
  • Does the average NPC even have Resonance?

    Resonance is a minimum of 1 as others have noted. So yes.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Ninja in the Rye wrote:


    Does the average NPC even have Resonance?

    Yes. Otherwise it goes down an unfortunate route where NPCs can't interact with the way the game world works.

    No healing people with potions, no apprentices pulling out a wand they found in their master's study, no escapes sneaking off a witness under a potion of invisibility, things just don't work for no reason, and the world seems less reasonable and consistent.

    Shadow Lodge

    3 people marked this as a favorite.
    Secane wrote:
    For example, in the circle of magic books, magical healing gets harder on a person who have received too much magical healing. The mage describes it in-world as the lingering older healing spells are fighting the fresher newer healing spells.

    The author really liked this kind of thing. As I recall from the Protector of the Small series it's more like healing magic feels weird and you naturally try to resist it. As you get exposed to it more and more you resist it. The main character explained that whenever healers worked on her when she was a few years younger her mother would smack her and her siblings with a stick if they fought the magic.

    Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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    Jessex wrote:

    So the days of seeding the starting adventure with plenty of healing potions, or a wand of CLW, is over. Back to the bad old days of the 15 minute work day. Can I say how much I hated that as a GM.

    Oh wait. I can just ignore this nonsense in my own campaign or switch to 5e.

    1st level PCs have somewhere between 1 and 5 Resonance each, and likely have no magic armor or worn items to lock any of those points up. On top of that, running out of Resonance doesn't even shut you out of using magic items--you can make flat checks to spend on an empty tank.

    So I guess what I'm asking is, exactly how many healing potions have you been dropping in the starting adventure?

    Liberty's Edge

    4 people marked this as a favorite.
    Cantriped wrote:
    Actually I was assuming the merchant rents their spaces from the nobleman... owning land was what made you noble in feudal society.

    Golarion is really profoundly not feudal if you actually look at the example towns and the like. It's pretty clear in context that most people own their own home and business. Nobles do also serve as landlords to some degree, where they even exist, but not for most people most of the time.

    This is especially true of someone well off enough to afford a magic item shop.

    Cantriped wrote:
    But street vending makes sense too. Wagons and most importantly horses are relatively cheap in PF1.

    Those aren't the people selling magic items, though.

    Cantriped wrote:
    I'm not familiar enough with the full downtime rules, and didn't want to learn them just for that example, but I don't recall having a house or spouse reducing your abstract cost of living (which explicitly includes paying all those silly fees, tolls, and rents).

    Buildings in general generate income by the rules. A house is no exception (though with lower income than many buildings).

    Cantriped wrote:
    Or are you assuming that our fictional GM would allow something as metagamey as "Profession (Spouse)" being used to generate income?

    In real medieval and renaissance society the wife of any family who actually worked for a living also worked. For farmers she did at least as much to ensure family income as he did. If nothing else the wife usually made all their clothing and did upkeep on the house.

    Assuming the wife as the stay at home partner is also a bit of a weird assumption for Golarion, where gender roles are much less hardened than they were in medieval or renaissance society.

    And finally, I wasn't assuming any Profession income from the spouse, though realistically there probably would be some. Of course, realistically, they probably would be providing Profession income, but they might also have more children.

    Cantriped wrote:
    Otherwise we are talking about two professionals that pool their income instead, so of course they do better than one professional and one dependant (more than twice as well in fact). My example only assumed one professional in the family unit.

    That's a really poor assumption in the cultural milieu of Golarion, as well as throughout most of history in the real world. 'Stay at home spouse' has always been a province exclusively of the upper middle class (and higher social classes), and not universal among societies even among them.


    graystone wrote:
    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    graystone wrote:
    Cthulhudrew wrote:
    DM: "What's your bulk?"
    Every time I see bulk come up in one of these thread makes me want to play the game less... :P
    Are you just copy pasteing that comment at this point?
    It would be easier at this point as almost every blog post has bulk snuck in someplace. It's hard to focus on things I might like when things I don't, like bulk, keep showing up... :P

    I'm not really a big fan of bulk as a concept myself. Someone made a good point that I should try it for awhile before I pass my final judgement So I'll hold off on final decisions. regardless its not important enough to me to ruin the play test previews.


    3 people marked this as a favorite.

    I'm not really sure what the issue with bulk is. It's just a less granular way of doing encumbrance and the extreme granularity was *the* issue with encumbrance.

    Lot of tables just ignored encumbrance except for "within reason" so I see no reason the exact same approach won't work here.

    I mean, I personally prefer fantasy settings have abstract units of measurement instead of implying people on Golarion know what kilograms are. Thog the Barbarian isn't going to whip out scales to estimate the weight of the jewel encrusted golden statue the party just ripped out of the wall, he just knows "s'too damn heavy".

    The Exchange

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    Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Dragon78 wrote:

    Player: I pour the healing potion down the throat of the dying commoner. What happens?

    DM: He dies!
    Player: Why?
    DM: Because he was only Lv1 and had 8 Cha, so had 0 resonance!

    Veteran NPC: Magic is a tool and is only as strong as the practitioner using it. It is unfortunate thst you learned it his way. There is risk in using potent magic on such a weak child. Learn from this and In the future use this basic magic orison called stabilize. (assuming such a spell still exists)

    Shadow Lodge

    4 people marked this as a favorite.

    Extra Veteran NPC: Back in my day he would've lived....


    In my days we wouldn't of bothered trying to shove a potion down a commoners throat. Waste of a perfectly good potion. Also its not like you could just go out and make one you had to luck out and hope a monster dropped one.


    Dragonborn3 wrote:
    Extra Veteran NPC: Back in my day he would've lived....

    Grandpa Veteran: Back in mine we wouldn't have wasted good loot on filthy peasant. Probably just picked a fight with a kitten anyway.


    Voss wrote:
    Dragonborn3 wrote:
    Extra Veteran NPC: Back in my day he would've lived....

    Grandpa Veteran: Back in mine we wouldn't have wasted good loot on filthy peasant. Probably just picked a fight with a kitten anyway.

    If we are talking kill kittens then RIP You will be missed....


    Vidmaster 1st edition wrote:
    In my days we wouldn't of bothered trying to shove a potion down a commoners throat. Waste of a perfectly good potion. Also its not like you could just go out and make one you had to luck out and hope a monster dropped one.

    Healing skill is going to be good enough for a level 1 commoner, and if it's not he or she was supposed to die anyway and you still get credit for trying.


    PossibleCabbage wrote:
    Vidmaster 1st edition wrote:
    In my days we wouldn't of bothered trying to shove a potion down a commoners throat. Waste of a perfectly good potion. Also its not like you could just go out and make one you had to luck out and hope a monster dropped one.
    Healing skill is going to be good enough for a level 1 commoner, and if it's not he or she was supposed to die anyway and you still get credit for trying.

    That sounds good to me sonny.


    3 people marked this as a favorite.
    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    I'm not really a big fan of bulk as a concept myself. Someone made a good point that I should try it for awhile before I pass my final judgement

    I got to see how it works in starfinder and IMO it's super awful. I can't imagine that they made a complete overhaul and made it workable and were just keeping it underwraps for the new system.

    PossibleCabbage wrote:
    I'm not really sure what the issue with bulk is. It's just a less granular way of doing encumbrance and the extreme granularity was *the* issue with encumbrance.

    For me the issue is it varies so wildly: a potion and a staff have the same weight + unwieldiness and that makes no sense.

    PossibleCabbage wrote:
    Lot of tables just ignored encumbrance except for "within reason" so I see no reason the exact same approach won't work here.

    It's be nice to have some idea of actual weights. I step on a 100lb trap trigger... How much bulk is that?

    PossibleCabbage wrote:
    I mean, I personally prefer fantasy settings have abstract units of measurement instead of implying people on Golarion know what kilograms are. Thog the Barbarian isn't going to whip out scales to estimate the weight of the jewel encrusted golden statue the party just ripped out of the wall, he just knows "s'too damn heavy".

    I loathe them as they are something new to learn and they aren't intuitive. Secondly, bulk has a totally unknown factor, unwieldiness. With weight, if I want to figure out something not on the list I can just look it up: in less than 10 seconds I have a list as average weights for furniture:

    Armoire (Large) 200lbs
    Chair (Dining/No Arms) 15lbs
    Carpet (Rolled) 125lbs
    Desk (Roll Top/Large) 250lbs
    Tea Cart 75lbs

    This is just something I can't do with bulk. Pick up a PC that's downed/paralyzed/stunned/ect? Who knows if I'm strong enough. The party wants to move a man sized granite statue: I easily found out that's @ 550 lbs. How much bulk? No one knows...

    PS: this should be my last post on bulk as this is the Potency and Potions thread.


    (I haven't got to pay starfinder that much so I don't have a point of reference from that igther.)

    Addressing the P.S.: Likely story >.>

    Liberty's Edge

    graystone wrote:
    This is just something I can't do with bulk. Pick up a PC that's downed/paralyzed/stunned/ect? Who knows if I'm strong enough. The party wants to move a man sized granite statue: I easily found out that's @ 550 lbs. How much bulk? No one knows...

    I should note that this is the easiest problem in the world to fix just by giving Bulk a conversion note. Something like 'X pounds of dead weight equal one Bulk, with additional Bulk for being awkward to maneuver or carry at GM discretion' is the easiest thing in the world to include.

    It's not included properly in Starfinder (the phrase '5 to 10 lbs' is used, and not especially helpful since that means something 100 lbs is between 10 and 20 Bulk), which has caused no end of complaints (including from me), but nothing prevents them from doing it properly in PF2.


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    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    Addressing the P.S.: Likely story >.>

    In THIS thread. I make no promises in other ones. ;)


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    Potency and Potions wrote:
    Both potency and property are imbued within a suitable weapon by etching magical runes upon it. Runes can be fairly easily removed or added (assuming the quality of the weapon allows it), and can even be found etched on a runestone, allowing them to be transferred separately from a weapon

    Welcome the the user manual of Pathfinder of the Exile.

    Dark Archive

    Yeaaah, Golarion is more in renaissance in general than medieval. Also silk hats exist.

    Shadow Lodge

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    So I'm not gonna say which, but I can guarantee at least one post is getting deleted and we're gonna get a nice reminded about what is and is not okay to say....

    Dark Archive

    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    To give a hint to the poster if they want to make amends and edit or delete post before getting deleted by mods, you shouldn't use that as insult because doing that is offensive and against rules :P

    Anyhoo, noticed on another thread that someone had idea of "What if slot type is just example for most common type and item could be in any slot" and I'm wondering "Wait, so why that isn't the case if purpose of resonance is to get rid of magic item slots"?

    I'm at least hoping that becomes the case as 1e already had "Special variant of another item that is in this slot instead" items, making that norm would be simpler


    CorvusMask wrote:

    To give a hint to the poster if they want to make amends and edit or delete post before getting deleted by mods, you shouldn't use that as insult because doing that is offensive and against rules :P

    Anyhoo, noticed on another thread that someone had idea of "What if slot type is just example for most common type and item could be in any slot" and I'm wondering "Wait, so why that isn't the case if purpose of resonance is to get rid of magic item slots"?

    I'm at least hoping that becomes the case as 1e already had "Special variant of another item that is in this slot instead" items, making that norm would be simpler

    You can say my name I don't mind ;) although to be fair it was just a much deadmans if not more.

    Dark Archive

    I tend to avoid naming who had the idea originally when I quote other ideas because for all I know they heard the idea from someone else originally xD


    Fair enough :)

    Liberty's Edge

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    Yeah, that one was at least partly mine, and to my knowledge I came up with it originally (I didn't see it anywhere else before I first mentioned it).

    Frankly, I think we're getting an earlier iteration of the Resonance system than we are most of the rest of PF2, since it's the only truly different bit conceptually (even Skill Feats clearly evolved from Skill Unlocks, among other things), and think it's gonna be the thing that gets changed and polished the most by the playtest.

    Dark Archive

    I do hope though that some of ideas on forums get in rather than them just removing resonance entirely if it turns out folks don't like it <_< Like I really love that magic items can be made to any slot idea you two discussed, even if resonance stays as is, I think that should get in core book.

    That said, it would be nice if it was possible to playtest updated version of resonance system if it gets changed. Mainly because its new system, so would be nice to be able to test multiple iterations of it to get it right.

    Silver Crusade

    Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

    That might be hard to do in the time the playtest has, until the book has to be ready for the printer again.

    Dark Archive

    Oh yeah, because the playtest exists as physical book first and foremost? :/

    Kind of forgot playtest physical book existed actually

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