Potency and Potions

Friday, June 29, 2018

Earlier this week, Logan gave you the skinny on Resonance and how it interacts with some iconic and all-new magic items. If you missed out on Logan's explanation of Resonance, you might want to take a look here before reading on, because we're going to come back to it at the end of the blog. You got how Resonance works? Good. Now forget about it, we're going to talk about weapons instead.

Potency and Properties

Unlike items with the invested trait or ones that you activate, weapons typically require no Resonance to use. You just pick one up and swing (or shoot, or sling, or thrust, or throw), and the magic weapon unleashes its punch, often with potency. Think as a weapon's potency as its "plus" and more. Potency still grants an item bonus to your attack rolls with the weapon, but now it also increases the damage dealt by an additional weapon die for each point of potency bonus. For example, let's say you find a +1 longsword buried in an otyugh's dung heap. Regardless of its current soiling, that weapon grants not only a +1 item bonus to attack rolls, but on a successful hit it deals 2d8 + Strength modifier damage, instead of the standard 1d8 + Strength modifier. A +2 longsword would instead grant a +2 item bonus to attacks and deal 3d8 + Strength modifier damage, and so on.

Of course, potency is only a part of the story. Magic weapons can also have properties. The maximum potency and the number of properties a weapon can have are based on that weapon's quality. Standard weapons can't have potency or properties, while expert-quality weapons can have up to +2 potency and one property. Master-quality weapons can have up to +4 potency and two properties, and legendary weapons can be +5 weapons and have three properties. Sometimes, special materials can affect the number of properties a magic weapon can possess. Since cold iron resists magic, weapons made of cold iron have one fewer property. Conversely, weapons made of highly magical orichalcum can have one additional property, but because the metal is so rare and difficult to work, these weapons must be legendary.

Both potency and property are imbued within a suitable weapon by etching magical runes upon it. Runes can be fairly easily removed or added (assuming the quality of the weapon allows it), and can even be found etched on a runestone, allowing them to be transferred separately from a weapon. Say you just found a handful of weapon property runestones in your adventure. What properties might they be? Well, let's take a look at one of the favorites of good and undead-hating clerics.

Disrupting Rune 5+

Method of Use etched, melee weapon


A disrupting weapon deals extra damage to undead. Undead hit by an attack with a disrupting weapon takes extra positive damage and additional effects on a critical hit.

Type standard; Level 5; Price 150 gp

The weapon deals 1d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Type greater; Level 15 (Uncommon), Price 6,200 gp

The weapon deals 2d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead creature must attempt a DC 32 Fortitude save with the following effects.

Success The target is enfeebled 2 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Success The target is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Failure The target is enfeebled 3 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Failure The target is destroyed.

The disrupting property comes in two varieties. The standard disrupting property deals some positive damage and can enfeeble undead. The greater version deals more positive damage, and can force undead to attempt a save—if they critically fail that save, they're destroyed outright!

Of course, other types of properties can do even more incredible things. Sometimes, these properties can require an expenditure of resonance.

Vorpal Rune 17

Evocation, Magical

Price 15,000 gp

Method of Use etched, melee weapon that deals slashing damage

Activation [[R]] Focus Activation; Trigger You roll a natural 20 and critically succeed at a Strike with the weapon targeting a creature with at least one head.


When you activate a vorpal weapon, the triggering creature must succeed at a DC 35 Fortitude save, or it is decapitated. This kills any creature except ones that don't require a head to live (such as constructs, oozes, and some aberrations and undead). For creatures with multiple heads (such as ettins or hydras), this usually kills the creature only if you sever its lasthead.

If, like the vorpal property, a weapon property has an activation, you have to spend Resonance to activate it; however, unlike worn items, you don't have to already be attuned to a weapon to activate it. So roll those 20s and snicker-snack your opponents for as long as you've got the resonance to spare.

Armor Potency and Properties

Magic armor also features potency and may have properties. Like weapons, armor can hold a maximum amount of potency and properties based on its quality and special materials, and you can add, remove, or transfer potency and properties between armor via runes. The maximum potency and number of properties for armor is the same as for weapons, though it's worth noting that rather than granting an additional property, orichalcum armor instead grants a +1 circumstance bonus to initiative rolls and automatically repairs itself over time.

Armor potency grants an item bonus to AC (including Touch Armor Class) and to your saving throws. Magic and high-quality armors are also easier to use. Armors of expert quality have their armor check penalty reduced by one, while master-quality armors have their penalty reduced by two, and legendary armor by three.

Like other worn items, you must invest armor; that is, you have to spend resonance to gain its magical effects. If your armor has an activated property, you must have invested the armor before you can use that ability. Let's look at an example of such a property.

Invisibility Rune 8+

Illusion, Magical

Method of Use etched, light armor

Activation [[A]] Command Activation


Once per day, you can whisper the command word to become invisible for 1 minute, gaining the effects of a 2nd-level invisibilityspell.

Type standard; Level 8; Price 500 gp

Type greater; Level 10; Price 1,000 gp

You can activate the armor up to 3 times per day.

Craft Requirements You must supply a casting of invisibility.

This favored property of many rangers and rogues (and maybe a sneaky alchemist or two) allows the attuned creature to gain the benefit of an invisibility spell at the cost of an action and 1 RP. The greater version enables you to activate the armor three times a day instead of just once.

But not all properties feature activations or require expending Resonance beyond that spent for initial attunement. Here's a classic example of one—fortification.

Fortification Rune 12+

Abjuration, Magical

Method of Use etched, medium or heavy armor


Each time you're hit by a critical hit while wearing fortification armor, attempt a flat check with the listed DC. If you succeed, that critical hit becomes a normal hit. This property thickens the armor, increasing its Bulk by 1.

Type standard; Level 12; Price 2,000 gp; DC 17

Type greater; Level 18; Price 24,000 gp; DC 14

Granting medium and heavy armor users the possibility to transform a critical hit to a normal hit, fortification provides an excellent constant effect for fighters, paladins, and more martial-focused clerics.

Potions

Now that you know how magic weapons and armor work, let's talk a look at something much less permanent, but often useful in a pinch—potions! While in First Edition, potions were spells of 3rd level or lower in a bottle; we wanted to go a slightly different route this time. Potions not only can have effects that reach into higher levels, but they also don't need to be tied to particular spell effects. All of that said, there are just some potions that are so iconic and necessary, you can't mess with them too much. Who doesn't need a healing potion every now and then?

Healing Potion Item 1+

Consumable, Healing, Magical, Necromancy, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


When you drink a healing potion, you regain the listed number of Hit Points.

Type minor; Level 1; Price 3 gp

The potion restores 1d8 Hit Points.

Type lesser; Level 3; Price 8 gp

The potion restores 2d8+4 Hit Points.

Type moderate; Level 5; Price 20 gp

The potion restores 3d8+8 Hit Points.

Type greater; Level 8; Price 60 gp

The potion restores 5d8+12 Hit Points.

Type major; Level 12; Price 250 gp

The potion restores 7d8+20 Hit Points.

Type true; Level 16; Price 1,200 gp

The potion restores 9d8+30 Hit Points.

The first thing you'll notice is that there are six varieties of this point, ranging from level 1 (restoring 1d8 Hit Points) to level 16 (restoring 9d8+20 Hit Points) You'll also notice that this potion (and all potions) has an activation. Which, you guessed it, means you have to spend Resonance to gain its effect.

Of course, sometimes a healing potion does its best work when you're down for the punch and can't activate it yourself. No worries. The time-honored tradition of pouring a potion down your wounded friend's gullet is still in the game. Your companion spends an Interact basic action to administer the potion to you, but you still need to spend Resonance to gain the potion's effect (thankfully, you don't have to be conscious to do so).

Of course, this new flexibility for potions allows us to keep some items that in First Edition were called elixirs (a term that in the Playtest, we now use for alchemical concoctions). Here's one of my favorites:

Dragon's Breath Potion Item 7+

Consumable, Evocation, Magical, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


This liquid contains blood from a certain breed of dragon. For 1 hour after you imbibe the acrid concoction, you can unleash a breath weapon used by that breed of dragon. The potion's level and Price, as well as the amount of damage and the DC of the saving throw, all depend on the age of the dragon whose blood you used. This item has the trait matching the damage type of the breath weapon.

You can spend another Operate Activation action with no RP cost immediately after drinking the potion to exhale dragon breath. At any point during the potion's duration, you can use the breath weapon by spending 1 RP and 2 Operate Activation actions (one to inhale the necessary air and the other to breathe out). After you use the breath weapon, you can't do so again for 1d4 rounds.

Each creature in the area of the breath weapon attempts a save against your breath weapon.

Success Half damage.

Critical Success No damage.

Failure Full damage.

Critical Failure Double damage.

Type young; Level 7; Price 45 gp; Damage 4d6; DC 21

Type adult; Level 12;

Price 250 gp; Damage 7d6; DC 28

Type wyrm; Level 17; Price 2,000 gp; Damage 10d6; DC 35

Dragon Breath Weapon (Save)

Black or copper 30-foot line of acid (Reflex)
Blue or bronze 30-foot line of electricity (Reflex)
Brass 30-foot line of fire (Reflex)
Green 15-foot cone of poison (Fortitude)
Gold or red 15-foot cone of fire (Reflex)
Silver or white 15-foot cone of cold (Reflex)

This one is interesting because you spend Resonance when you first drink the potion and spew some draconic hate on your foes, and can then continue to do so for an hour after imbibing whenever you spend actions and RP. Pick the right kind of dragon, and you'll be the life of whatever party you join.

Very closely related to potions are oils. Like potions, you activate these consumable items, but you do so by applying the oil to an object or person. While it usually takes one hand to drink or administer a potion, applying oil takes two hands. This particular oil may be of interest to shield users.

Oil of Mending Item 3

Consumable, Magical, Oil, Transmutation

Price 6 gp

Method of Use held, 2 hands; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


Applying this oil to an item casts a 2nd-level mending spell that repairs the item. If the item was broken, it is no longer broken. If the item has Dents, it loses those Dents. This restoration doesn't restore lost pieces. For instance, if used on a text with missing pages, it wouldn't recreate the lost pages.

A perfect backup when you fail your Crafting check to Repair an Item, or when you need to repair that dented shield in a hurry, the oil of mending has plenty of other uses.

Well, that's it for this week! Join us next week as we take a little walk in the woods.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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Liberty's Edge

Cantriped wrote:

Of course not, the grogards would have rioted. One of the classic "end-game" activities for adventurers was becomming a lord/lady and building your own keep (circa 1st & 2nd edition D&D, when I started playing). This is why the Leadership feat even existed in 3rd+.

Adventurers don't have a mechanically defined social status anymore because that would lock you into using a feudal society. A PC buying land is a campaign issue, not something the ruleset needs to comment on (except for an optional downtime system of course).

Sure, if you want to justify things that way you certainly can (though frankly in that case I'd expect some discussion of how such 'permission' works in one or more setting books for the areas where it's required). It's only one of the many points I made on the subject, however.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

I do wonder if going from a quadratic economy (+2 being way more expensive than +1) down to a linear economy (+2 being double the cost of +1) and adjusting 'the loot' would have solved any issues resonance was trying to solve.

It would have put less of an encouragement on using the cheap healing wands, I think.

I don't have enough insight (bonus ^-^) on the math of the (economy) system though.


Franz Lunzer wrote:

I do wonder if going from a quadratic economy (+2 being way more expensive than +1) down to a linear economy (+2 being double the cost of +1) and adjusting 'the loot' would have solved any issues resonance was trying to solve.

It would have put less of an encouragement on using the cheap healing wands, I think.

I don't have enough insight (bonus ^-^) on the math of the (economy) system though.

in essence the biggest problem with a linear economy is it allows lower level characters too easy an access to higher level items, you can't easily wbl gate them. Low level characters with high level items is bad.


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dragonhunterq wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:

I do wonder if going from a quadratic economy (+2 being way more expensive than +1) down to a linear economy (+2 being double the cost of +1) and adjusting 'the loot' would have solved any issues resonance was trying to solve.

It would have put less of an encouragement on using the cheap healing wands, I think.

I don't have enough insight (bonus ^-^) on the math of the (economy) system though.

in essence the biggest problem with a linear economy is it allows lower level characters too easy an access to higher level items, you can't easily wbl gate them. Low level characters with high level items is bad.

However, this is why wands of CLW where a problem for some in the first place: IE, higher level wands where way overpriced because of WBL gating making CLW wands so cheap. I do wonder if an economic rework couldn't have fixed the issue.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
dragonhunterq wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:

I do wonder if going from a quadratic economy (+2 being way more expensive than +1) down to a linear economy (+2 being double the cost of +1) and adjusting 'the loot' would have solved any issues resonance was trying to solve.

It would have put less of an encouragement on using the cheap healing wands, I think.

I don't have enough insight (bonus ^-^) on the math of the (economy) system though.

in essence the biggest problem with a linear economy is it allows lower level characters too easy an access to higher level items, you can't easily wbl gate them. Low level characters with high level items is bad.

You might not be able to gate them with WbL. But items have levels now as well.

I know that this creates other issues like in Starfinder (Why can't I buy that gun? I have the money!!)


Franz Lunzer wrote:
I know that this creates other issues like in Starfinder (Why can't I buy that gun? I have the money!!)

Ha, wait, you can still technically buy it, it's just that the GM should make sure it's not available until a certain level, contrive reasons why no shop carries it until you hit X level, right?


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Chest Rockwell wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:
I know that this creates other issues like in Starfinder (Why can't I buy that gun? I have the money!!)
Ha, wait, you can still technically buy it, it's just that the GM should make sure it's not available until a certain level, contrive reasons why no shop carries it until you hit X level, right?

That would be the ending of World Building in favor of game mechanics. And as much as I am a fan of tight mechanics, the world building aspect is THE most important thing for a PNP DM driven RPG that differentiate it from playing Diablo.


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Dekalinder wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:
I know that this creates other issues like in Starfinder (Why can't I buy that gun? I have the money!!)
Ha, wait, you can still technically buy it, it's just that the GM should make sure it's not available until a certain level, contrive reasons why no shop carries it until you hit X level, right?
That would be the ending of World Building in favor of game mechanics. And as much as I am a fan of tight mechanics, the world building aspect is THE most important thing for a PNP DM driven RPG that differentiate it from playing Diablo.

Oh, I agree, it is something that would seriously rub me the wrong way.


Not sure if this has been discussed already, but I'm curious about armor quality impacting armor check penalties. That seems to indicate that at higher levels the metrics which keep the armors balanced against each other to avoid having a clear best in each category of light/heavy/medium will shrink. So I'm curious what else is a factor there. I guess the noisy trait on a chain shirt won't go away even if the ACP does?

Dark Archive

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Chest Rockwell wrote:
Dekalinder wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:
I know that this creates other issues like in Starfinder (Why can't I buy that gun? I have the money!!)
Ha, wait, you can still technically buy it, it's just that the GM should make sure it's not available until a certain level, contrive reasons why no shop carries it until you hit X level, right?
That would be the ending of World Building in favor of game mechanics. And as much as I am a fan of tight mechanics, the world building aspect is THE most important thing for a PNP DM driven RPG that differentiate it from playing Diablo.
Oh, I agree, it is something that would seriously rub me the wrong way.

Considering that rule wise in 1e, if item is under city's basevalue limit, you have 75% chance of finding it per week(unless you are in metropolis where you can find everything under 8000 gp(as all minor items are available in metropolis) automatically) unless you get lucky with random items for the month that are always available. Considering this means you can find 16k+ magic items in large towns were nobody can afford them(and average base value is 2000 gp), don't you think that is also immersion breaking?

In setting it is pretty much someone trying to sell ring of wizardry in place where only farmers and such live :P

Basically, its not really much different, logic with magic items has always been(even with potions and scrolls if gms and writers wouldn't be nice enough to include npcs who specialize in selling them) that its random chance whether they are even available. So isn't it just narrative that until you are famous or rich enough, you don't get chance to track down better equipment?(whether its because your lower level contacts don't know were you can buy them, you aren't admitted to shop, someone else bought them first, etc etc you can think of many narrative reasons for it)

(that and pathfinder has always been game mechanic heavy and not simulation, so it would be just one more example of it)


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Late to this one, but put me as +1 as resonance in its current form is a forced and punishing mechanic. The action types and costs, and resonance cost is horribly unclear, and specific items are disheartening.

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention, is how horrible are mundane crafted weapons. They only serve as a tax for magic bonuses instead being relevant on their own, as even their significant bonus is superseded by magical bonus.


Chest Rockwell wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:
I know that this creates other issues like in Starfinder (Why can't I buy that gun? I have the money!!)
Ha, wait, you can still technically buy it, it's just that the GM should make sure it's not available until a certain level, contrive reasons why no shop carries it until you hit X level, right?

We interpreted this is that manufacturers (and thus their legitimate vendors) were unwilling to sell certain stuff to just anybody, for liability and PR reasons (Starfinder is sufficiently advanced that no one wants to be the seller of the gun used in a famous massacre by a madman), and would need to have a certain amount of information on you before they will sell you the gun (legitimately).

Harder to justify this with a setting that doesn't have the internet or large corporations though.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Harder to justify this with a setting that doesn't have the internet or large corporations though.

Internet? We have magic! ;)


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:
I know that this creates other issues like in Starfinder (Why can't I buy that gun? I have the money!!)
Ha, wait, you can still technically buy it, it's just that the GM should make sure it's not available until a certain level, contrive reasons why no shop carries it until you hit X level, right?

We interpreted this is that manufacturers (and thus their legitimate vendors) were unwilling to sell certain stuff to just anybody, for liability and PR reasons (Starfinder is sufficiently advanced that no one wants to be the seller of the gun used in a famous massacre by a madman), and would need to have a certain amount of information on you before they will sell you the gun (legitimately).

Harder to justify this with a setting that doesn't have the internet or large corporations though.

Meh. Pretty hard to justify even in place. Oh no, that bounty hunter has a handgun 5 levels higher than he is, that +1d6 damage will let him slaughter everyone!

What? Oh yeah, you can have that level 2 tactical assault cannon, no problem.
>.>

Silver Crusade

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It is bad enough that you have the chance to waste a potion on a bad roll, now you have to spend a resource to even gain access to your bad rolls.

Either. A. you need to spend a resource to drink it and it has guaranteed results (heal 6hps, not 1d8), OR, B. no resource spent and roll a die for the result.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:
I know that this creates other issues like in Starfinder (Why can't I buy that gun? I have the money!!)
Ha, wait, you can still technically buy it, it's just that the GM should make sure it's not available until a certain level, contrive reasons why no shop carries it until you hit X level, right?

We interpreted this is that manufacturers (and thus their legitimate vendors) were unwilling to sell certain stuff to just anybody, for liability and PR reasons (Starfinder is sufficiently advanced that no one wants to be the seller of the gun used in a famous massacre by a madman), and would need to have a certain amount of information on you before they will sell you the gun (legitimately).

Harder to justify this with a setting that doesn't have the internet or large corporations though.

Yeah, I can see that, but, I don't know, interpretations and justifications, doesn't sound too hot, right?


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Are arbitrary restrictions based on item and character level really so much worse than the quadratic "Adventurer's Economy" we have now?

At least with the former, the world the adventurers live in could make sense without cunning players abusing it to gain excessive personal power.

For example, If we have Resonance anyway... why not restrict Investment in items higher level than yourself? It could allow a flat roll based on the difference in level to Invest, and another every hour to maintain investment (weapons would have to also require investment and work just like staves). That way the joke about the commoner with the vorpel sword is possible, but not easily abusable. The rational being that higher level items require more "mana", and higher level creatures have more "mana". Generally the adventure wouldn't put anything significantly beyond the players level within their reach anyway, but now if it does (or something slips in) the game itself doesn't break, just our immersion a little.

It also means that the economy can be as reasonable or as arbitrary as the campaign demands (with the default leaning towards reasonable). There would be almost nothing the players can get their hands on could break the campaign. The investment/activation mechanics would still be encouraging us to upgrade to the most character efficient option available, but prevent us from pooling our wealth for things we cannot effectively use yet. Though the higher levels would inevitably lend themselves better to epic fantasy:
A dragon's horde could literally be enough to build a kingdom, and equip an army, or start an international war over... instead of it barely being enough to get a party of four to six mercenaries their next round of negligable magical enhancements because "reasons".


Cantriped wrote:
Are arbitrary restrictions based on item and character level really so much worse than the quadratic "Adventurer's Economy" we have now?

Is this some sort of reference to "casters & caddies" propaganda?


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Chest Rockwell wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:
I know that this creates other issues like in Starfinder (Why can't I buy that gun? I have the money!!)
Ha, wait, you can still technically buy it, it's just that the GM should make sure it's not available until a certain level, contrive reasons why no shop carries it until you hit X level, right?

Really all they need to do is restrict its function, not its availability. If you can buy a super weapon but don't have the skill or knowledge to use it correctly, then the issue disappears. Sure you bought a Warbringer at 3rd level, but it takes all your skill just to keep from cutting yourself while ignoring the murderous chanting. You treat it as a magic falchion of an item level equal to your character level until you unlock its full potential at level 14. Hell, you could make feats that bump that level unlock up by a level or two. It functions well in world and mechanically.


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ErichAD wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:
I know that this creates other issues like in Starfinder (Why can't I buy that gun? I have the money!!)
Ha, wait, you can still technically buy it, it's just that the GM should make sure it's not available until a certain level, contrive reasons why no shop carries it until you hit X level, right?
Really all they need to do is restrict its function, not its availability.

That woulds be weird, your handy haversack cannot store stuff until you are X level...


Chest Rockwell wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:
I know that this creates other issues like in Starfinder (Why can't I buy that gun? I have the money!!)
Ha, wait, you can still technically buy it, it's just that the GM should make sure it's not available until a certain level, contrive reasons why no shop carries it until you hit X level, right?
Really all they need to do is restrict its function, not its availability.
That woulds be weird, your handy haversack cannot store stuff until you are X level...

It works great and can certainly store stuff, just not magically. It's a nice bag that doesn't suffer from the usual wear and tear. As you level up you notice more and more that the bag never seems to fill up and the right item is always on top.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Rysky wrote:

Something I just realized about why I'm okay with Resonance in certain things not in others, and in others I mostly mean potions, is that Resonance takes the place of UMD.

You needed UMD for wands and scrolls and the like.

You did not UMD for Potions.

What if for potions, you could only drink your CON mod per day (min 1), without starting to make FORT saves? So if you have a couple, you're fine, but if you have too many, then you vomit up the last one with no effect, potion wasted.

Although, the biggest problems I can see with that are 1) it's REALLY weighted in favor of high-CON characters 2) Setting the DCs so they work over multiple levels seems like a big pain without Bounded Accuracy.

#2 could be solved by doing just straight CON checks instead of Fort saves, but that still leaves us with problem #1. (Though the same could be argued of Resonance and CHA, but at least CHA needed a reason to be better as it was...)


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ErichAD wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:
I know that this creates other issues like in Starfinder (Why can't I buy that gun? I have the money!!)
Ha, wait, you can still technically buy it, it's just that the GM should make sure it's not available until a certain level, contrive reasons why no shop carries it until you hit X level, right?
Really all they need to do is restrict its function, not its availability.
That woulds be weird, your handy haversack cannot store stuff until you are X level...
It works great and can certainly store stuff, just not magically.

So, just a normal sack until you reach X level, when it can suddenly hold magical amounts of weight and volume?

Out of context, this is a hilarious exchange.


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Kaemy wrote:

My two cents: went Resonance was first introduced, it felt weird, but also that there might be something in there. When I learned more about how you got it and what it was for, I started liking it more.

Now instead of having a shirt that gives you an extra move action 1/day and a cloak that turns you into a crow 3/day, you can wear both and decide with your 4 resonance points if you run 4 times, or turn into a crow 4 times, or any mix in between, and didn't have to track remaining uses for neither, just a global Resonance Pool.

When I learned potions costed resonance, I was also up for it. This encourages you to drink that one big level-apropiate powerful potion instead of drinking 20 crappy ones in a row after a fight, same for wands (wich I asumed would cost resonance to activate and would have no charges neither, so if you have 10 resonance points to use on wands, you want to make those 10 heals be better, so you buy better wands).
Making potions cost a valuable resource (Resonance) was also the perfect excuse to make them more powerful (since you are limited to how many you can use in any given day) so you would track your 3 AWESOME POTIONS instead of 20 crappy situational ones; and things like drinking a Healing Potion in Combat wouldn't be so much of a waste of actions (if it did for once heal more than what ANY enemy in the battle field could damage with half their attacks).

I was so into resonance, that I started homebrewing it in my current campaign, giving players wands and items that all have abilities that cost resonance, so they decide what/how they use them. And I do like having a resource similar to "How many spells do I have left? Do I want to burn one for this?" for all clases.

Then the last 2 Blog Posts happened... What a mess... 3 or 4 new kinds of actions that have never been explained to us and that seem that could be easily replaced with "Somatic, Verbal and Material". If you want to have a "Amazing Opperator" Feat later that removes the Opperation Action from items, you can...

I agree. If you are going to use resonance do not use charges or uses per a day. If you do use charges and used per day toss out resonance. I have not problem with the math, it is the fact that it does not make sense. Telling me a item has charges make me think the item has the magical energy in it to work. Resonance is the item does not have the magical energy to work so I need to supply it. Using both on the same item does not make sense.

I could see using resonance to re-charge a item, but not to use charges. If the effect needs more cost to balance it, please do it some other way. decrease the power of the item, or add an action of needing to charge the item before use. Just please not charges and resonance at the same time.


Chest Rockwell wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:
I know that this creates other issues like in Starfinder (Why can't I buy that gun? I have the money!!)
Ha, wait, you can still technically buy it, it's just that the GM should make sure it's not available until a certain level, contrive reasons why no shop carries it until you hit X level, right?
Really all they need to do is restrict its function, not its availability.
That woulds be weird, your handy haversack cannot store stuff until you are X level...
It works great and can certainly store stuff, just not magically.

So, just a normal sack until you reach X level, when it can suddenly hold magical amounts of weight and volume?

Out of context, this is a hilarious exchange.

Yeah, it's a bit silly. It does make me wonder if the Handy Haversack will require resonance. I'd hate to have to turn it on and restuff it every morning.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
ErichAD wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:
I know that this creates other issues like in Starfinder (Why can't I buy that gun? I have the money!!)
Ha, wait, you can still technically buy it, it's just that the GM should make sure it's not available until a certain level, contrive reasons why no shop carries it until you hit X level, right?
Really all they need to do is restrict its function, not its availability.
That woulds be weird, your handy haversack cannot store stuff until you are X level...
It works great and can certainly store stuff, just not magically.

So, just a normal sack until you reach X level, when it can suddenly hold magical amounts of weight and volume?

Out of context, this is a hilarious exchange.

Yeah, it's a bit silly. It does make me wonder if the Handy Haversack will require resonance. I'd hate to have to turn it on and restuff it every morning.

I imagine it wont spew stuff out, you just won't be able to access it without attuning. I like this because Handy Haversacks are basically a workaround to the global trait Strength matters for (carrying stuff.) Given that getting an extra bonus in Charisma (+1 Resonance) lets you avoid many bonuses worth of Strength. This is a more than fair trade off in my opinion. E.G Having a 12 in Charisma lets me keep my str 8 on my wizard for no repercussions. And worse trade for strength really because you don't necessarily need one on each character.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Malk_Content wrote:
I imagine it wont spew stuff out, you just won't be able to access it without attuning. I like this because Handy Haversacks are basically a workaround to the global trait Strength matters for (carrying stuff.) Given that getting an extra bonus in Charisma (+1 Resonance) lets you avoid many bonuses worth of Strength. This is a more than fair trade off in my opinion. E.G Having a 12 in Charisma lets me keep my str 8 on my wizard for no repercussions. And worse trade for strength really because you don't necessarily need one on each character.

Because it's fine that fighters have to worry about charisma now, but wizards worrying about strength? Impossible!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
WatersLethe wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
I imagine it wont spew stuff out, you just won't be able to access it without attuning. I like this because Handy Haversacks are basically a workaround to the global trait Strength matters for (carrying stuff.) Given that getting an extra bonus in Charisma (+1 Resonance) lets you avoid many bonuses worth of Strength. This is a more than fair trade off in my opinion. E.G Having a 12 in Charisma lets me keep my str 8 on my wizard for no repercussions. And worse trade for strength really because you don't necessarily need one on each character.
Because it's fine that fighters have to worry about charisma now, but wizards worrying about strength? Impossible!

So we introduce a Bulk pool, with points of Bulk you invest...


Some of these are making resonance look slightly less horrible!!


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WatersLethe wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
I imagine it wont spew stuff out, you just won't be able to access it without attuning. I like this because Handy Haversacks are basically a workaround to the global trait Strength matters for (carrying stuff.) Given that getting an extra bonus in Charisma (+1 Resonance) lets you avoid many bonuses worth of Strength. This is a more than fair trade off in my opinion. E.G Having a 12 in Charisma lets me keep my str 8 on my wizard for no repercussions. And worse trade for strength really because you don't necessarily need one on each character.
Because it's fine that fighters have to worry about charisma now, but wizards worrying about strength? Impossible!

Let's make staves really, really heavy!

"Ha ha you dumped Str now you can't wield your Staff of Power!"


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
WatersLethe wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
I imagine it wont spew stuff out, you just won't be able to access it without attuning. I like this because Handy Haversacks are basically a workaround to the global trait Strength matters for (carrying stuff.) Given that getting an extra bonus in Charisma (+1 Resonance) lets you avoid many bonuses worth of Strength. This is a more than fair trade off in my opinion. E.G Having a 12 in Charisma lets me keep my str 8 on my wizard for no repercussions. And worse trade for strength really because you don't necessarily need one on each character.
Because it's fine that fighters have to worry about charisma now, but wizards worrying about strength? Impossible!

Well its an improvement! I'd rather there be no items that let you completely circumvent any stats mechanical relevance. But I think people would flip if so a legacy item wasn't in the game. Given its likely existence, I'm glad there is likely to be some cost to use it. Ideally for me a Haversack will just improve the bulk you can carry such that it helps with low Str, but doesn't replace the need for str. In the same way Magic armour helps with poor AC from Dex, or various Save stats, or magic tools help with poor x from whatever stat. For me in this way Charisma, outside of the social skills, becomes as sort of wild card stat.

Dark Archive

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Just to note, in 1e wizards DO have to worry about strength: If they have sucky one, they need alternative way of being able to carry their gear whether that is prepping a spell or buying magic item that does it for them(especially if they are small. You'd be surprised how fast they hit encumbrance limits) :p They can't 100% ignore strength like fighter that doesn't care about intimidate or diplomacy can for charisma.

Thats the difference between dumb stat and "the" dumb stat. While wizard doesn't need strength, they still need something to compensate for lack of strength while in 1e if you don't use charisma skills or need charisma for class features, you can always dumb it for no effect.


CorvusMask wrote:

Just to note, in 1e wizards DO have to worry about strength: If they have sucky one, they need alternative way of being able to carry their gear whether that is prepping a spell or buying magic item that does it for them(especially if they are small. You'd be surprised how fast they hit encumbrance limits) :p They can't 100% ignore strength like fighter that doesn't care about intimidate or diplomacy can for charisma.

Thats the difference between dumb stat and "the" dumb stat. While wizard doesn't need strength, they still need something to compensate for lack of strength while in 1e if you don't use charisma skills or need charisma for class features, you can always dumb it for no effect.

This is why I always try to use the annoying encumbrance rules that every loves to ignore. It prevents Strength from becoming an useless stat on most characters.

However, GMing for a 7 STR Wizard has shown me they don't actually carry a lot of gear. Weapon+Armor is usually a significant amount, but Wjzards don't really have these. They usually carry scrolls with negligible weight and other magical clothing. Potions are the item with best odds are pushing them into encumbrance, but that becomes a non-issue with extradimensional storage.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yeah, rogues and bards are the ones that benefit from the handy haversack. They have to wear armor and carry melee and ranged weapons, plus other gear. Many bards can barely carry the so-called bard's kit, which doesn't include armor or weapon(s), without inching over into medium encumbrance.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"


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Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

Boots of Haste will likely require an action to use, and have a 1 minute duration per use, so that shouldn't be an issue on that front.

Either way, fear the resonance, for it will kill your character 90% of the time because you thought fireballs were cooler than healing yourself with a CLW wand.


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graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Harder to justify this with a setting that doesn't have the internet or large corporations though.
Internet? We have magic! ;)

I think I'm going to handle the transition to item level in PF2 via the notion that most higher level items are generally commissions; it's not like stores have legendary swords lying around. Creating really high end items is sufficiently involved/expensive/stressful that most craftsfolk won't do it for just anybody even if they have the coin. A blacksmith might make a comfortable living, and won't make the legendary sword for some nobody, but would appreciate the slight immortality involved in creating some weapon that a great hero used to accomplish great deeds.

One can always gate access to certain gear via "nobody around these parts is able to make this."


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Right; just another mechanic where you have to hoard it and lock yourself out of any coolness in fear of needing it, especially at low levels.

Sovereign Court

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Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

How many times did that character's allies fail their Medicine checks?


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

How many times did that character's allies fail their Medicine checks?

Medicine will take more actions than simply using a potion as one action entirely, thereby making it a non-option.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

Only if you haven't explained the system before hand, or they are the kind of person to walk away from anything when it doesn't go their way.


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Malk_Content wrote:
Only if you haven't explained the system before hand, or they are the kind of person to walk away from anything when it doesn't go their way.

Not a very tasteful comment you have there, and smacks of badwrongfun. It's perfectly reasonable that a group that doesn't like a mechanic in a game can choose to abandon said mechanic.

Having fun comes first.

Shadow Lodge

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

How many times did that character's allies fail their Medicine checks?
Medicine will take more actions than simply using a potion as one action entirely, thereby making it a non-option.

In combat at least.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
WatersLethe wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Only if you haven't explained the system before hand, or they are the kind of person to walk away from anything when it doesn't go their way.

Not a very tasteful comment you have there, and smacks of badwrongfun. It's perfectly reasonable that a group that doesn't like a mechanic in a game can choose to abandon said mechanic.

Having fun comes first.

It is fine to not like a mechanic. It does smack me as childish to throw your hands up and walk away if the results of a mechanic that you knew the reprecusions of before hand are a detriment to you. Especially in a co-op game. And to asert that every one will do so is even more ridiculous to me.

Sovereign Court

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

How many times did that character's allies fail their Medicine checks?
Medicine will take more actions than simply using a potion as one action entirely, thereby making it a non-option.

It is a single action to Administer First Aid. An action that can be attempted untrained, even.

Administer First Aid:

[[A]] ADMINISTER FIRST AID

Manipulate

Requirements You must have healer's tools.

You perform first aid on an adjacent creature that is at 0 Hit Points in an attempt to stabilize or revive it. You can also perform first aid on an adjacent creature taking persistent bleed damage. The DC for either is 15. If a creature is both dying and bleeding, choose which one you're trying to end before you roll. You can Administer First Aid again to attempt to remedy the other.

Success The creature at 0 Hit Points gains 1 Hit Point, or you end the persistent bleed damage.

Critical Failure A creature with 0 Hit Points has its dying condition increased by 1. A creature with persistent bleed damage takes damage equal to the amount of its persistent bleed damage.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

How many times did that character's allies fail their Medicine checks?
Medicine will take more actions than simply using a potion as one action entirely, thereby making it a non-option.

It is a single action to Administer First Aid. An action that can be attempted untrained, even.

** spoiler omitted **

Which actually makes it less actions than a potion which requires 2!

Dark Archive

ChibiNyan wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

Just to note, in 1e wizards DO have to worry about strength: If they have sucky one, they need alternative way of being able to carry their gear whether that is prepping a spell or buying magic item that does it for them(especially if they are small. You'd be surprised how fast they hit encumbrance limits) :p They can't 100% ignore strength like fighter that doesn't care about intimidate or diplomacy can for charisma.

Thats the difference between dumb stat and "the" dumb stat. While wizard doesn't need strength, they still need something to compensate for lack of strength while in 1e if you don't use charisma skills or need charisma for class features, you can always dumb it for no effect.

This is why I always try to use the annoying encumbrance rules that every loves to ignore. It prevents Strength from becoming an useless stat on most characters.

However, GMing for a 7 STR Wizard has shown me they don't actually carry a lot of gear. Weapon+Armor is usually a significant amount, but Wjzards don't really have these. They usually carry scrolls with negligible weight and other magical clothing. Potions are the item with best odds are pushing them into encumbrance, but that becomes a non-issue with extradimensional storage.

Hey, I also GMed for level 7 STR and at higher level(or depending on campaign) they can actually go over encumbrance limit :D

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Malk_Content wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Only if you haven't explained the system before hand, or they are the kind of person to walk away from anything when it doesn't go their way.

Not a very tasteful comment you have there, and smacks of badwrongfun. It's perfectly reasonable that a group that doesn't like a mechanic in a game can choose to abandon said mechanic.

Having fun comes first.

It is fine to not like a mechanic. It does smack me as childish to throw your hands up and walk away if the results of a mechanic that you knew the reprecusions of before hand are a detriment to you. Especially in a co-op game. And to asert that every one will do so is even more ridiculous to me.

Exactly.

I can understand not liking Resonance.

I can understand not wanting to play the new game because you don't like Resonance.

I can even sympathize with the underlying concerns they're expressing--that Resonance will excessively limit use of non-healing items, and shorten the adventuring day. I'm going to be looking for those kind of problems in the playtest myself.

But Nathanael Love chose to phrase their concerns in the form of a frankly outlandish scenario, where somehow the GM is springing the bad news to a player that they're out of a resource that the player themself tracks and chooses when to use. And then the whole table quits because of it.

It's like, has no one in their games died because someone ran out of healing spells? That's definitely happened in my games.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Exactly.

I can understand not liking Resonance.

I can understand not wanting to play the new game because you don't like Resonance.

I can even sympathize with the underlying concerns they're expressing--that Resonance will excessively limit use of non-healing items, and shorten the adventuring day. I'm going to be looking for those kind of problems in the playtest myself.

But Nathanael Love chose to phrase their concerns in the form of a frankly outlandish scenario, where somehow the GM is springing the bad news to a player that they're out of a resource that the player themself tracks and chooses when to use. And then the whole table quits because of it.

It's like, has no one in their games died because someone ran out of healing spells? That's definitely happened in my games.

Sure, the scenario was obviously hyperbole. But the response to it is not to make snide remarks about the hypothetical group being a bunch of whiny quitters.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

How many times did that character's allies fail their Medicine checks?
Medicine will take more actions than simply using a potion as one action entirely, thereby making it a non-option.

It is a single action to Administer First Aid. An action that can be attempted untrained, even.

** spoiler omitted **

So there is a reasonable chance that untrained lower level players will make it worse... This isn't making me feel better about the situation.

And if Medicine checks are the go to for these things, you're just replacing that CLW wand with skill ranks in that skill for a lateral move IMO.

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