Potency and Potions

Friday, June 29, 2018

Earlier this week, Logan gave you the skinny on Resonance and how it interacts with some iconic and all-new magic items. If you missed out on Logan's explanation of Resonance, you might want to take a look here before reading on, because we're going to come back to it at the end of the blog. You got how Resonance works? Good. Now forget about it, we're going to talk about weapons instead.

Potency and Properties

Unlike items with the invested trait or ones that you activate, weapons typically require no Resonance to use. You just pick one up and swing (or shoot, or sling, or thrust, or throw), and the magic weapon unleashes its punch, often with potency. Think as a weapon's potency as its "plus" and more. Potency still grants an item bonus to your attack rolls with the weapon, but now it also increases the damage dealt by an additional weapon die for each point of potency bonus. For example, let's say you find a +1 longsword buried in an otyugh's dung heap. Regardless of its current soiling, that weapon grants not only a +1 item bonus to attack rolls, but on a successful hit it deals 2d8 + Strength modifier damage, instead of the standard 1d8 + Strength modifier. A +2 longsword would instead grant a +2 item bonus to attacks and deal 3d8 + Strength modifier damage, and so on.

Of course, potency is only a part of the story. Magic weapons can also have properties. The maximum potency and the number of properties a weapon can have are based on that weapon's quality. Standard weapons can't have potency or properties, while expert-quality weapons can have up to +2 potency and one property. Master-quality weapons can have up to +4 potency and two properties, and legendary weapons can be +5 weapons and have three properties. Sometimes, special materials can affect the number of properties a magic weapon can possess. Since cold iron resists magic, weapons made of cold iron have one fewer property. Conversely, weapons made of highly magical orichalcum can have one additional property, but because the metal is so rare and difficult to work, these weapons must be legendary.

Both potency and property are imbued within a suitable weapon by etching magical runes upon it. Runes can be fairly easily removed or added (assuming the quality of the weapon allows it), and can even be found etched on a runestone, allowing them to be transferred separately from a weapon. Say you just found a handful of weapon property runestones in your adventure. What properties might they be? Well, let's take a look at one of the favorites of good and undead-hating clerics.

Disrupting Rune 5+

Method of Use etched, melee weapon


A disrupting weapon deals extra damage to undead. Undead hit by an attack with a disrupting weapon takes extra positive damage and additional effects on a critical hit.

Type standard; Level 5; Price 150 gp

The weapon deals 1d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Type greater; Level 15 (Uncommon), Price 6,200 gp

The weapon deals 2d6 extra positive damage. On a critical hit, the undead creature must attempt a DC 32 Fortitude save with the following effects.

Success The target is enfeebled 2 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Success The target is enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Failure The target is enfeebled 3 until the end of your next turn.

Critical Failure The target is destroyed.

The disrupting property comes in two varieties. The standard disrupting property deals some positive damage and can enfeeble undead. The greater version deals more positive damage, and can force undead to attempt a save—if they critically fail that save, they're destroyed outright!

Of course, other types of properties can do even more incredible things. Sometimes, these properties can require an expenditure of resonance.

Vorpal Rune 17

Evocation, Magical

Price 15,000 gp

Method of Use etched, melee weapon that deals slashing damage

Activation [[R]] Focus Activation; Trigger You roll a natural 20 and critically succeed at a Strike with the weapon targeting a creature with at least one head.


When you activate a vorpal weapon, the triggering creature must succeed at a DC 35 Fortitude save, or it is decapitated. This kills any creature except ones that don't require a head to live (such as constructs, oozes, and some aberrations and undead). For creatures with multiple heads (such as ettins or hydras), this usually kills the creature only if you sever its lasthead.

If, like the vorpal property, a weapon property has an activation, you have to spend Resonance to activate it; however, unlike worn items, you don't have to already be attuned to a weapon to activate it. So roll those 20s and snicker-snack your opponents for as long as you've got the resonance to spare.

Armor Potency and Properties

Magic armor also features potency and may have properties. Like weapons, armor can hold a maximum amount of potency and properties based on its quality and special materials, and you can add, remove, or transfer potency and properties between armor via runes. The maximum potency and number of properties for armor is the same as for weapons, though it's worth noting that rather than granting an additional property, orichalcum armor instead grants a +1 circumstance bonus to initiative rolls and automatically repairs itself over time.

Armor potency grants an item bonus to AC (including Touch Armor Class) and to your saving throws. Magic and high-quality armors are also easier to use. Armors of expert quality have their armor check penalty reduced by one, while master-quality armors have their penalty reduced by two, and legendary armor by three.

Like other worn items, you must invest armor; that is, you have to spend resonance to gain its magical effects. If your armor has an activated property, you must have invested the armor before you can use that ability. Let's look at an example of such a property.

Invisibility Rune 8+

Illusion, Magical

Method of Use etched, light armor

Activation [[A]] Command Activation


Once per day, you can whisper the command word to become invisible for 1 minute, gaining the effects of a 2nd-level invisibilityspell.

Type standard; Level 8; Price 500 gp

Type greater; Level 10; Price 1,000 gp

You can activate the armor up to 3 times per day.

Craft Requirements You must supply a casting of invisibility.

This favored property of many rangers and rogues (and maybe a sneaky alchemist or two) allows the attuned creature to gain the benefit of an invisibility spell at the cost of an action and 1 RP. The greater version enables you to activate the armor three times a day instead of just once.

But not all properties feature activations or require expending Resonance beyond that spent for initial attunement. Here's a classic example of one—fortification.

Fortification Rune 12+

Abjuration, Magical

Method of Use etched, medium or heavy armor


Each time you're hit by a critical hit while wearing fortification armor, attempt a flat check with the listed DC. If you succeed, that critical hit becomes a normal hit. This property thickens the armor, increasing its Bulk by 1.

Type standard; Level 12; Price 2,000 gp; DC 17

Type greater; Level 18; Price 24,000 gp; DC 14

Granting medium and heavy armor users the possibility to transform a critical hit to a normal hit, fortification provides an excellent constant effect for fighters, paladins, and more martial-focused clerics.

Potions

Now that you know how magic weapons and armor work, let's talk a look at something much less permanent, but often useful in a pinch—potions! While in First Edition, potions were spells of 3rd level or lower in a bottle; we wanted to go a slightly different route this time. Potions not only can have effects that reach into higher levels, but they also don't need to be tied to particular spell effects. All of that said, there are just some potions that are so iconic and necessary, you can't mess with them too much. Who doesn't need a healing potion every now and then?

Healing Potion Item 1+

Consumable, Healing, Magical, Necromancy, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


When you drink a healing potion, you regain the listed number of Hit Points.

Type minor; Level 1; Price 3 gp

The potion restores 1d8 Hit Points.

Type lesser; Level 3; Price 8 gp

The potion restores 2d8+4 Hit Points.

Type moderate; Level 5; Price 20 gp

The potion restores 3d8+8 Hit Points.

Type greater; Level 8; Price 60 gp

The potion restores 5d8+12 Hit Points.

Type major; Level 12; Price 250 gp

The potion restores 7d8+20 Hit Points.

Type true; Level 16; Price 1,200 gp

The potion restores 9d8+30 Hit Points.

The first thing you'll notice is that there are six varieties of this point, ranging from level 1 (restoring 1d8 Hit Points) to level 16 (restoring 9d8+20 Hit Points) You'll also notice that this potion (and all potions) has an activation. Which, you guessed it, means you have to spend Resonance to gain its effect.

Of course, sometimes a healing potion does its best work when you're down for the punch and can't activate it yourself. No worries. The time-honored tradition of pouring a potion down your wounded friend's gullet is still in the game. Your companion spends an Interact basic action to administer the potion to you, but you still need to spend Resonance to gain the potion's effect (thankfully, you don't have to be conscious to do so).

Of course, this new flexibility for potions allows us to keep some items that in First Edition were called elixirs (a term that in the Playtest, we now use for alchemical concoctions). Here's one of my favorites:

Dragon's Breath Potion Item 7+

Consumable, Evocation, Magical, Potion

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


This liquid contains blood from a certain breed of dragon. For 1 hour after you imbibe the acrid concoction, you can unleash a breath weapon used by that breed of dragon. The potion's level and Price, as well as the amount of damage and the DC of the saving throw, all depend on the age of the dragon whose blood you used. This item has the trait matching the damage type of the breath weapon.

You can spend another Operate Activation action with no RP cost immediately after drinking the potion to exhale dragon breath. At any point during the potion's duration, you can use the breath weapon by spending 1 RP and 2 Operate Activation actions (one to inhale the necessary air and the other to breathe out). After you use the breath weapon, you can't do so again for 1d4 rounds.

Each creature in the area of the breath weapon attempts a save against your breath weapon.

Success Half damage.

Critical Success No damage.

Failure Full damage.

Critical Failure Double damage.

Type young; Level 7; Price 45 gp; Damage 4d6; DC 21

Type adult; Level 12;

Price 250 gp; Damage 7d6; DC 28

Type wyrm; Level 17; Price 2,000 gp; Damage 10d6; DC 35

Dragon Breath Weapon (Save)

Black or copper 30-foot line of acid (Reflex)
Blue or bronze 30-foot line of electricity (Reflex)
Brass 30-foot line of fire (Reflex)
Green 15-foot cone of poison (Fortitude)
Gold or red 15-foot cone of fire (Reflex)
Silver or white 15-foot cone of cold (Reflex)

This one is interesting because you spend Resonance when you first drink the potion and spew some draconic hate on your foes, and can then continue to do so for an hour after imbibing whenever you spend actions and RP. Pick the right kind of dragon, and you'll be the life of whatever party you join.

Very closely related to potions are oils. Like potions, you activate these consumable items, but you do so by applying the oil to an object or person. While it usually takes one hand to drink or administer a potion, applying oil takes two hands. This particular oil may be of interest to shield users.

Oil of Mending Item 3

Consumable, Magical, Oil, Transmutation

Price 6 gp

Method of Use held, 2 hands; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


Applying this oil to an item casts a 2nd-level mending spell that repairs the item. If the item was broken, it is no longer broken. If the item has Dents, it loses those Dents. This restoration doesn't restore lost pieces. For instance, if used on a text with missing pages, it wouldn't recreate the lost pages.

A perfect backup when you fail your Crafting check to Repair an Item, or when you need to repair that dented shield in a hurry, the oil of mending has plenty of other uses.

Well, that's it for this week! Join us next week as we take a little walk in the woods.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

How many times did that character's allies fail their Medicine checks?
Medicine will take more actions than simply using a potion as one action entirely, thereby making it a non-option.

It is a single action to Administer First Aid. An action that can be attempted untrained, even.

** spoiler omitted **

So there is a reasonable chance that untrained lower level players will make it worse... This isn't making me feel better about the situation.

And if Medicine checks are the go to for these things, you're just replacing that CLW wand with skill ranks in that skill for a lateral move IMO.

You don't need skill ranks to get better at First Aid. Higher level characters just get better at staunching wounds. Though you should probably invest if you are relying on the skill as your primary healing. A character with training and medium Wisdom score stops killing people accidentally by level 3.


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Malk_Content wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

How many times did that character's allies fail their Medicine checks?
Medicine will take more actions than simply using a potion as one action entirely, thereby making it a non-option.

It is a single action to Administer First Aid. An action that can be attempted untrained, even.

** spoiler omitted **

Which actually makes it less actions than a potion which requires 2!

nope, need an action to get out the healers kit. Still two actions. And needs a skill check, and only leaves you on 1hp rather than X the potion would leave you on.

Not an adequate substitute IMO.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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WatersLethe wrote:
Sure, the scenario was obviously hyperbole. But the response to it is not to make snide remarks about the hypothetical group being a bunch of whiny quitters.

See, it's the initial, hyperbolic complaint that felt snide to me.

Shadow Lodge

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WatersLethe wrote:
Having fun comes first.

And one of the best policies for having fun is to not entertain people who make hyperbolic statements about things they don't like.


KingOfAnything wrote:
You don't need skill ranks to get better at First Aid.

And? You'll note that I talked specifically about "untrained lower level players". What you can do at higher levels is literally meaningless in that.

KingOfAnything wrote:
Higher level characters just get better at staunching wounds.

Good to know if you manage to survive an untrained check killing you from a tourniquet to the neck... :P

KingOfAnything wrote:
Though you should probably invest if you are relying on the skill as your primary healing. A character with training and medium Wisdom score stops killing people accidentally by level 3.

As I said, lateral/sidegrade move at best. It's still forcing someone to take the healing role.

Sovereign Court

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dragonhunterq wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

How many times did that character's allies fail their Medicine checks?
Medicine will take more actions than simply using a potion as one action entirely, thereby making it a non-option.

It is a single action to Administer First Aid. An action that can be attempted untrained, even.

** spoiler omitted **

Which actually makes it less actions than a potion which requires 2!

nope, need an action to get out the healers kit. Still two actions. And needs a skill check, and only leaves you on 1hp rather than X the potion would leave you on.

Not an adequate substitute IMO.

The problem presented was imminent death. 1hp and Xhp are equally alive. But Medicine doesn't cost resonance, and that point of resonance can be much more valuable than Xhp.


Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like in practice said situations can be mostly avoided with "Sure, how many points of resonance do you have left?"

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graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Though you should probably invest if you are relying on the skill as your primary healing. A character with training and medium Wisdom score stops killing people accidentally by level 3.
As I said, lateral/sidegrade move at best. It's still forcing someone to take the healing role.

I get confused when you treat the goals of the system as problems of the system. Yes, the party needs to invest in and manage healing. You have options on how to do that.

A starting skill and some wisdom is still a lot lower investment to "take the healing role" than say, your entire choice of class.


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WatersLethe wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Exactly.

I can understand not liking Resonance.

I can understand not wanting to play the new game because you don't like Resonance.

I can even sympathize with the underlying concerns they're expressing--that Resonance will excessively limit use of non-healing items, and shorten the adventuring day. I'm going to be looking for those kind of problems in the playtest myself.

But Nathanael Love chose to phrase their concerns in the form of a frankly outlandish scenario, where somehow the GM is springing the bad news to a player that they're out of a resource that the player themself tracks and chooses when to use. And then the whole table quits because of it.

It's like, has no one in their games died because someone ran out of healing spells? That's definitely happened in my games.

Sure, the scenario was obviously hyperbole. But the response to it is not to make snide remarks about the hypothetical group being a bunch of whiny quitters.

Right.

And it's not like they have far to walk.

They can just go play 5th Edition where potions don't compete with your other magic items for a resource based on your charisma score or go back to 1st edition pathfinder if they came from there.

Of the 3, the way potions works and magic item slots work it seems that Resonance makes PF2 the least attractive of all possible options.

At best, many people will be putting up with resonance for parts of PF2 that are actually attractive (I assume there will be some, if nothing else for PFS with new scenarios), the mechanic itself isn't adding any fun or draw to the game- or certainly the feature of it being required for healing potions is not.


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Apologies if I'm reiterating what others have already said.

I'm not a fan of potions using resonance either. This reminds me of stamina points in Starfinder. I loved the concept (no, really), but having the same pool also be used for class abilities seemed questionable. Wasn't the reason they spun channeling off into its own thing apart from Cleric spell points that they didn't want the cleric to feel like they had to choose between a neat magic trick or healing? I liked that, let's keep doing that.

Also, didn't potions in 4e use your healing surges too? That seemed weird then, but frankly I'd rather that entire concept be lifted from 4e and used for PF2 healing potions than resonance.


Yeah resonance does honestly have some similarities to healing surges. I could really see potions working differently then other magic items. hmm you know it could be like a cool down thing like in Diablo 3 where you drink a potion then you can't benefit from another one for a few minutes afterwards. Then it would just be getting the timing right. Hmm how upset would people be if you only got to use 1-2 potions per combat but it would be each combat for that day?


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Yeah resonance does honestly have some similarities to healing surges.

Yeah, that is what I have been saying, but now it's tied to magic items, and some healing (via potions).

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Chest Rockwell wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
Sure, the scenario was obviously hyperbole. But the response to it is not to make snide remarks about the hypothetical group being a bunch of whiny quitters.
See, it's the initial, hyperbolic complaint that felt snide to me.
Hyperbolic, yes (but that's rather par for the course around these parts), snide, not at all, but that is obvious.

Agree to disagree. It read very snide to me. It was mocking the concept of Resonance by contriving a ridiculous situation to cast the rule in an unfavorable light. It added nothing of value to the conversation (IMO).


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My main issue Nathanael is you asserted it would be that way for all groups. Your group? Okay. I still think it is fairly childish for someone to give up on something when it doesn't go their way, I've played with people like that in video games, war games, board games and roleplaying games and have always found they end up pinging between groups, but wouldn't have commented on it.

But all groups? Not at all. My group, for example, finds it incredibly fun when their decisions yield occasionally detrimental results (although this is very nebulous, who is to say that if they had held onto the Resonance the party wouldn't be in even a worse situation) especially when it is a result of the rules and not me as the GM deciding something. It makes them feel like their choices actually have some importance to outcomes.


Let's not engage in gang-culture.


Chest Rockwell wrote:
Let's not engage in gang-culture.

It is very inappropriate. see.

Dark Archive

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Chest Rockwell wrote:
Let's not engage in gang-culture.

Umm. I literally have no idea what you are referring to. Nobody was ganging up on anyone I think?


Nathanael Love wrote:


They can just go play 5th Edition where potions don't compete with your other magic items for a resource based on your charisma score or go back to 1st edition pathfinder if they came from there.

Of the 3, the way potions works and magic item slots work it seems that Resonance makes PF2 the least attractive of all possible options.

Huh, personally I detest magic item slots being a thing. If I'm not playing a video game, I can't say I like the idea of item slots.

While 5e is partially based around the assumption of limited attunement, the actual limit of 3 feels thematically arbitrary, nor are potions in the best place in 5e anyway. Even this draft of resonance I think is more interesting than either, and I'd much rather deal with item fizzling than giving what to me is a contrived explanation for either slots or max attunement. I very much doubt that potions of all things are going to be a make or break for my party.

Nathanael Love wrote:


At best, many people will be putting up with resonance for parts of PF2 that are actually attractive (I assume there will be some, if nothing else for PFS with new scenarios), the mechanic itself isn't adding any fun or draw to the game- or certainly the feature of it being required for healing potions is not.

Each to their own. Personally as the perma-DM of my table it actually is drawing me to an extent, as the mechanics give a clear springboard to tinker with or use them. E.g. locations that restore or sap resonance, a legendary hero getting kidnapped to fuel some arcane machine (due to having a high resonance score, depending on the in universe explanation of how it works), bottles that can store a number of resonance points for later use or transfer to another.


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Elleth wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:


They can just go play 5th Edition where potions don't compete with your other magic items for a resource based on your charisma score or go back to 1st edition pathfinder if they came from there.

Of the 3, the way potions works and magic item slots work it seems that Resonance makes PF2 the least attractive of all possible options.

Huh, personally I detest magic item slots being a thing. If I'm not playing a video game, I can't say I like the idea of item slots.

While 5e is partially based around the assumption of limited attunement, the actual limit of 3 feels thematically arbitrary, nor are potions in the best place in 5e anyway. Even this draft of resonance I think is more interesting than either, and I'd much rather deal with item fizzling than giving what to me is a contrived explanation for either slots or max attunement. I very much doubt that potions of all things are going to be a make or break for my party.

Nathanael Love wrote:


At best, many people will be putting up with resonance for parts of PF2 that are actually attractive (I assume there will be some, if nothing else for PFS with new scenarios), the mechanic itself isn't adding any fun or draw to the game- or certainly the feature of it being required for healing potions is not.
Each to their own. Personally as the perma-DM of my table it actually is drawing me to an extent, as the mechanics give a clear springboard to tinker with or use them. E.g. locations that restore or sap resonance, a legendary hero getting kidnapped to fuel some arcane machine (due to having a high resonance score, depending on the in universe explanation of how it works), bottles that can store a number of resonance points for later use or transfer to another.

To the extent of replacing magic item slots, I like resonance. If it was only ‘you have x resonance in magic items on you and attuned at any given time’ and the resonance pool reflected what that limit was, and items had resonance costs reflecting how much ‘interference’ they provided, so the pool was utilized, but not spent - I would like that.

Then some other solution for item spam. Perhaps the pool also represents what sort of ongoing magical effects you can have on you. So, say, a limit on the number of buffs and magic items combined, then tweak that number for taste. But basically treating a buff as if it were a temporary worn magic item.

In effect, you could call it ‘magic encumbrance’ if you wish. And different spells and items have different ‘bulk’.

Then you could adjust that resonance number based on how ‘Christmas tree’ you wanted your world.


Arssanguinus wrote:
To the extent of replacing magic item slots, I like resonance. If it was only ‘you have x resonance in magic items on you and attuned at any given time’ and the resonance pool reflected what that limit was, and items had...

I think that's completely fair. I think I like the idea of keeping it as is, but (taking bits of an idea from another thread) introducing resonance burn, by which I mean allowing players to ignore a fizzle in exchange for some other detrimental effect. I doubt it would be worth taking resonance burn for a potion, but I quite like the idea of allowing PCs to go out in a blaze of glory by tapping as many of their magic items as they can before they burn up.


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If resonance worked like 3.5 Incarnum only on items I don't think there would be such an uproar. The specific problem of resonance is when applied to consumable items like wands, potions eccetera.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

How many times did that character's allies fail their Medicine checks?
Medicine will take more actions than simply using a potion as one action entirely, thereby making it a non-option.

It is a single action to Administer First Aid. An action that can be attempted untrained, even.

** spoiler omitted **

Because everyone carries around Healer Tools, which is required for use. This doesn't include an action to draw out Healer Tools for use (it's not like you can draw them out freely as part of the action), as well as any action to get within range of the downed character (which is also something a Potion user has to do).

Even so, at best this means you're wasting actions to give bad guys an excuse to outright execute them if you're bothering to try and save their lives (and doing so poorly, I might add).


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KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Though you should probably invest if you are relying on the skill as your primary healing. A character with training and medium Wisdom score stops killing people accidentally by level 3.
As I said, lateral/sidegrade move at best. It's still forcing someone to take the healing role.

I get confused when you treat the goals of the system as problems of the system. Yes, the party needs to invest in and manage healing. You have options on how to do that.

A starting skill and some wisdom is still a lot lower investment to "take the healing role" than say, your entire choice of class.

I think the bolded part is what people have most contention with.

If I wanna make a Battle Cleric, I'm forced to have one (or more) of the following issues just because "healing is required":

-Select Positive Energy Channeling instead of Negative Energy Channeling for proper healing in-combat or out-of-combat, instead of having useful energy attacks against resistant enemies.

-Burn spell slots on healing instead of buffing or even damaging/control spells.

-Spend WBL on CLW wands until 10th level, moving to CMW by 15th, and CSW by 20th, and thereby ruin my ability to utilize multiple magic items, because the Wand debacle still actually exists.

If healing is really required (just like the Big 6 was in PF1), then everyone should have something built in to their class to heal (even if just for themselves) in some fashion, without any sort of choice or investment. I shouldn't have to shoehorn my character choices just because "the game requires healing." It's the same reason why people hated the Big 6 in PF1, because "the game required it."

Silver Crusade

Resonance to activate potions is a bad idea. All divine and arcane casters should get brew potion at 3rd level. When a potion is brewed resonance is invested in it and it varies by the caster level of the potion. So at some time the casters in the party will have to spend a few days in town and brew their parties potions and pen their scrolls this gives the rest of the party time to gather information and so other things io twn like go shopping and such.

When the potion is used the stored resonance is released and the magic takes effect saving the poor soul who is at deaths door. This makes the feat quick draw worth taking Change it so potions can be drawen as a free action.


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Lou Diamond wrote:

Resonance to activate potions is a bad idea. All divine and arcane casters should get brew potion at 3rd level. When a potion is brewed resonance is invested in it and it varies by the caster level of the potion. So at some time the casters in the party will have to spend a few days in town and brew their parties potions and pen their scrolls this gives the rest of the party time to gather information and so other things io twn like go shopping and such.

When the potion is used the stored resonance is released and the magic takes effect saving the poor soul who is at deaths door. This makes the feat quick draw worth taking Change it so potions can be drawen as a free action.

I wouldn't mind this. Although potions would then have to be the most expensive monetary cost per HP to compensate for being Resonanceless.

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

How many times did that character's allies fail their Medicine checks?
Medicine will take more actions than simply using a potion as one action entirely, thereby making it a non-option.

It is a single action to Administer First Aid. An action that can be attempted untrained, even.

** spoiler omitted **

Because everyone carries around Healer Tools, which is required for use. This doesn't include an action to draw out Healer Tools for use (it's not like you can draw them out freely as part of the action), as well as any action to get within range of the downed character (which is also something a Potion user has to do).

Even so, at best this means you're wasting actions to give bad guys an excuse to outright execute them if you're bothering to try and save their lives (and doing so poorly, I might add).

Every one of your points applies equally to potions. Except a potion costs resonance.

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Though you should probably invest if you are relying on the skill as your primary healing. A character with training and medium Wisdom score stops killing people accidentally by level 3.
As I said, lateral/sidegrade move at best. It's still forcing someone to take the healing role.

I get confused when you treat the goals of the system as problems of the system. Yes, the party needs to invest in and manage healing. You have options on how to do that.

A starting skill and some wisdom is still a lot lower investment to "take the healing role" than say, your entire choice of class.

I think the bolded part is what people have most contention with.

If I wanna make a Battle Cleric, I'm forced to have one (or more) of the following issues just because "healing is required":

-Select Positive Energy Channeling instead of Negative Energy Channeling for proper healing in-combat or out-of-combat, instead of having useful energy attacks against resistant enemies.

-Burn spell slots on healing instead of buffing or even damaging/control spells.

-Spend WBL on CLW wands until 10th level, moving to CMW by 15th, and CSW by 20th, and thereby ruin my ability to utilize multiple magic items, because the Wand debacle still actually exists.

If healing is really required (just like the Big 6 was in PF1), then everyone should have something built in to their class to heal (even if just for themselves) in some fashion, without any sort of choice or investment. I shouldn't have to shoehorn my character choices just because "the game requires healing." It's the same reason why people hated the Big 6 in PF1, because "the game required it."

You forgot “Invest in Medicine” on your list. Every class has options for providing healing. They are called skills. The cleric just has more and easier options should she choose to invest her class resources towards healing. A “battle cleric” doesn’t necessarily need to invest class choices at all.

Also, why would the cleric spend only her money on a wand for the whole party? That should be a group purchase.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Though you should probably invest if you are relying on the skill as your primary healing. A character with training and medium Wisdom score stops killing people accidentally by level 3.
As I said, lateral/sidegrade move at best. It's still forcing someone to take the healing role.

I get confused when you treat the goals of the system as problems of the system. Yes, the party needs to invest in and manage healing. You have options on how to do that.

A starting skill and some wisdom is still a lot lower investment to "take the healing role" than say, your entire choice of class.

I think the bolded part is what people have most contention with.

If I wanna make a Battle Cleric, I'm forced to have one (or more) of the following issues just because "healing is required":

-Select Positive Energy Channeling instead of Negative Energy Channeling for proper healing in-combat or out-of-combat, instead of having useful energy attacks against resistant enemies.

-Burn spell slots on healing instead of buffing or even damaging/control spells.

-Spend WBL on CLW wands until 10th level, moving to CMW by 15th, and CSW by 20th, and thereby ruin my ability to utilize multiple magic items, because the Wand debacle still actually exists.

If healing is really required (just like the Big 6 was in PF1), then everyone should have something built in to their class to heal (even if just for themselves) in some fashion, without any sort of choice or investment. I shouldn't have to shoehorn my character choices just because "the game requires healing." It's the same reason why people hated the Big 6 in PF1, because "the game required it."

You forgot “Invest in Medicine” on your list. Every class has options for providing healing. They are called skills. The cleric just has more and easier options should she choose to invest her class resources...

KoA you are really pushing hard that the medicine skill is an answer to concerns about resonance and healing items despite any real concrete information about the effectiveness of the medicine skill - or do you know something the rest of us don't?


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

The first time, "Sorry, your character is dead because you have no resonance to activate that potion left" is uttered every person at the table is walking away from the game forever.

"Guess you shouldn't have used those boots of haste earlier, eh?"

How many times did that character's allies fail their Medicine checks?
Medicine will take more actions than simply using a potion as one action entirely, thereby making it a non-option.

It is a single action to Administer First Aid. An action that can be attempted untrained, even.

** spoiler omitted **

Because everyone carries around Healer Tools, which is required for use. This doesn't include an action to draw out Healer Tools for use (it's not like you can draw them out freely as part of the action), as well as any action to get within range of the downed character (which is also something a Potion user has to do).

Even so, at best this means you're wasting actions to give bad guys an excuse to outright execute them if you're bothering to try and save their lives (and doing so poorly, I might add).

Every one of your points applies equally to potions. Except a potion costs resonance.

Sure but a potion:

- Does not require a skill check (and by extension, investing in a skill)
- Has no chance of making the situation worse.
- Heals for way more. Therefore, much more useful in a fight since it might prevent the guy from going down again immediately if they wake up.

Now, you can say "First Aid is untrained". Yeah, sure. But it's DC 15. Which means, even if you have the associated stat at +2 (to compensate for untrained), a first level character (just to pick an example) has a 25% chance of critically failing (1-5), 70% chance of failing and only 30% chance of passing. So, a long shot. And not to be relied on.

Now, true, as you level up this gets easier, but until this hypothethical character hits 14th level they always have a chance of making the situation worse. Because remember, always Untrained, so no Assurance.

In order for Medicine's First Aid to be reliable you need someone to get the skill at Trained, preferably at Expert (so Assurance gives you a 15). That's just having a dedicated Healer, except it's not the Cleric, it's someone else saddled with it.

And it's still basically worse than a potion in every way.


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WatersLethe wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Only if you haven't explained the system before hand, or they are the kind of person to walk away from anything when it doesn't go their way.

Not a very tasteful comment you have there, and smacks of badwrongfun. It's perfectly reasonable that a group that doesn't like a mechanic in a game can choose to abandon said mechanic.

Having fun comes first.

Any more distasteful than saying that one disliked mechanic is going to make everyone at the table walk away from PF2 forever? That’s rather extreme hyperbole.

I don’t know if the resonance mechanic is going to outlive the play test, but I do have a sneaking suspicion it’s not going to be the problem that detractors think it will — if it was, it wouldn’t have survived the initial playtests before now. If anything kills it, I believe it will likely be the extra fiddliness of it on top of tracking charges and uses per day, which it does not completely eliminate.

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dragonhunterq wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
You forgot “Invest in Medicine” on your list. Every class has options for providing healing. They are called skills. The cleric just has more and easier options should she choose
KoA you are really pushing hard that the medicine skill is an answer to concerns about resonance and healing items despite any real concrete information about the effectiveness of the medicine skill - or do you know something the rest of us don't?

I know of a fabled barbarian that served as the group's healer. Darksol going on about a cleric being forced to spend their class choices on healing is patently untrue. Positive energy is just one additional option to satisfy your party's healing needs. Which will most likely rely on a mix of Medicine and magic.


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dragonhunterq wrote:
KoA you are really pushing hard that the medicine skill is an answer to concerns about resonance and healing items despite any real concrete information about the effectiveness of the medicine skill - or do you know something the rest of us don't?

That a DC 15 Medicine check stops a downed character from dying? I mean, it's not a replacement for potions/healing in getting a PC back in fighting condition, but this particular argument was about an unconscious PC dying due to being unable to drink a potion.

Btw, do we have confirmation that healing potions work the way they do in P1e? That is, that you just add the hp rolled to your present total? Since the playtest has gone to not having negative hp and healing while Dying just removing the Dying condition but not adding to the hp total, or even returning consciousness, do we know for sure that potions still work the old way?

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TheFinish wrote:

Now, you can say "First Aid is untrained". Yeah, sure. But it's DC 15. Which means, even if you have the associated stat at +2 (to compensate for untrained), a first level character (just to pick an example) has a 25% chance of critically failing (1-5), 70% chance of failing and only 30% chance of passing. So, a long shot. And not to be relied on.

Now, true, as you level up this gets easier, but until this hypothethical character hits 14th level they always have a chance of making the situation worse. Because remember, always Untrained, so no Assurance.

In order for Medicine's First Aid to be reliable you need someone to get the skill at Trained, preferably at Expert (so Assurance gives you a 15). That's just having a dedicated Healer, except it's not the Cleric, it's someone else saddled with it.

And it's still basically worse than a potion in every way.

Why would you expect someone with no investment to be an excellent healer? That's like expecting a heal 1 wand to carry you through a high level dungeon. If you don't invest in better resources, they won't be nearly as good.

At the point you are making flat resonance checks to activate a potion, the character has about equal chances to die. Both the potion and the low-level character trained in Medicine have a 50/50 shot to stabilize the dying character, and on a 1, they either get worse, or can't attempt another potion.

The Medicine character gets better chances to stabilize as they level. The potion does not.

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Joana wrote:
Btw, do we have confirmation that healing potions work the way they do in P1e? That is, that you just add the hp rolled to your present total? Since the playtest has gone to not having negative hp and healing while Dying just removing the Dying condition but not adding to the hp total, or even returning consciousness, do we know for sure that potions still work the old way?

I'm pretty sure you only ever get worse at dying if you have 0hp and 0 is the minimum. So any healing will take you above 0hp and stop you from bleeding out. You still technically have a Dying condition until you recover and walk it off for a few rounds.


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Joana wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
KoA you are really pushing hard that the medicine skill is an answer to concerns about resonance and healing items despite any real concrete information about the effectiveness of the medicine skill - or do you know something the rest of us don't?

That a DC 15 Medicine check stops a downed character from dying? I mean, it's not a replacement for potions/healing in getting a PC back in fighting condition, but this particular argument was about an unconscious PC dying due to being unable to drink a potion.

Btw, do we have confirmation that healing potions work the way they do in P1e? That is, that you just add the hp rolled to your present total? Since the playtest has gone to not having negative hp and healing while Dying just removing the Dying condition but not adding to the hp total, or even returning consciousness, do we know for sure that potions still work the old way?

According to Jason, you do get the Hit Points added, you just don't wake up.

Here's the link

And the Dying condition remains, IIRC. But I've no citation for that.

KingOfAnything wrote:
TheFinish wrote:

Now, you can say "First Aid is untrained". Yeah, sure. But it's DC 15. Which means, even if you have the associated stat at +2 (to compensate for untrained), a first level character (just to pick an example) has a 25% chance of critically failing (1-5), 70% chance of failing and only 30% chance of passing. So, a long shot. And not to be relied on.

Now, true, as you level up this gets easier, but until this hypothethical character hits 14th level they always have a chance of making the situation worse. Because remember, always Untrained, so no Assurance.

In order for Medicine's First Aid to be reliable you need someone to get the skill at Trained, preferably at Expert (so Assurance gives you a 15). That's just having a dedicated Healer, except it's not the Cleric, it's someone else saddled with it.

And it's still basically worse than a potion in every way.

Why would you expect someone with no investment to be an excellent healer? That's like expecting a heal 1 wand to carry you through a high level dungeon. If you don't invest in better resources, they won't be nearly as good.

At the point you are making flat resonance checks to activate a potion, the character has about equal chances to die. Both the potion and the low-level character trained in Medicine have a 50/50 shot to stabilize the dying character, and on a 1, they either get worse, or can't attempt another potion.

The Medicine character gets better chances to stabilize as they level. The potion does not.

A 1st level heal wand will absolutely carry you through a dungeon if all you want it to do is prevent people from dying. Medicine will not, at early levels.

Also I never said someone with no investment would be an excellent healer. You implied Untrained medicine was enough to prevent the situation where a guy dies because a potion didn't work. Which is not all that true.

And no, the chances aren't the same. Have my +2 Wis guy trained in Medicine. DC still 15. He gets +3 (1 level,, 2 Wis). He critically fails on a 1 or 2 (10% chance) and he needs 12+ to pass (45% chance). The potion Critically fails on a 1 (5%) and passes on a 10+ (55% chance).

So, even with Trained you're better off with a potion. Better chances of succes, half the chance of a fumble, and a fumble doesn't make the dying character be closer to dying.


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TheFinish wrote:
Joana wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
KoA you are really pushing hard that the medicine skill is an answer to concerns about resonance and healing items despite any real concrete information about the effectiveness of the medicine skill - or do you know something the rest of us don't?

That a DC 15 Medicine check stops a downed character from dying? I mean, it's not a replacement for potions/healing in getting a PC back in fighting condition, but this particular argument was about an unconscious PC dying due to being unable to drink a potion.

Btw, do we have confirmation that healing potions work the way they do in P1e? That is, that you just add the hp rolled to your present total? Since the playtest has gone to not having negative hp and healing while Dying just removing the Dying condition but not adding to the hp total, or even returning consciousness, do we know for sure that potions still work the old way?

According to Jason, you do get the Hit Points added, you just don't wake up.

Here's the link

And the Dying condition remains, IIRC. But I've no citation for that.

Thanks, I was misremembering that discussion of the Dying rules (and couldn't find it to check; thought it was in a blog post).

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TheFinish wrote:
A 1st level heal wand will absolutely carry you through a dungeon if all you want it to do is prevent people from dying. Medicine will not, at early levels.

I did say at higher level. By level 7, a character invested in Medicine can succeed at First Aid 100% of the time. A wand or potion only does that so long as you budget the resonance for it.

Quote:
Also I never said someone with no investment would be an excellent healer. You implied Untrained medicine was enough to prevent the situation where a guy dies because a potion didn't work. Which is not all that true.

I didn't say untrained Medicine was enough. I pointed out the omission of any consideration for the skill. Healing requires investment. Either keep some resonance in reserve for emergencies or train and invest in the Medicine skill.

Quote:

And no, the chances aren't the same. Have my +2 Wis guy trained in Medicine. DC still 15. He gets +3 (1 level,, 2 Wis). He critically fails on a 1 or 2 (10% chance) and he needs 12+ to pass (45% chance). The potion Critically fails on a 1 (5%) and passes on a 10+ (55% chance).

So, even with Trained you're better off with a potion. Better chances of succes, half the chance of a fumble, and a fumble doesn't make the dying character be closer to dying.

Yes, you are worst at skills at level 1. A character's skills keep improving. The chances for resonance do not.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
A 1st level heal wand will absolutely carry you through a dungeon if all you want it to do is prevent people from dying. Medicine will not, at early levels.

I did say at higher level. By level 7, a character invested in Medicine can succeed at First Aid 100% of the time. A wand or potion only does that so long as you budget the resonance for it.

Quote:
Also I never said someone with no investment would be an excellent healer. You implied Untrained medicine was enough to prevent the situation where a guy dies because a potion didn't work. Which is not all that true.

I didn't say untrained Medicine was enough. I pointed out the omission of any consideration for the skill. Healing requires investment. Either keep some resonance in reserve for emergencies or train and invest in the Medicine skill.

Quote:

And no, the chances aren't the same. Have my +2 Wis guy trained in Medicine. DC still 15. He gets +3 (1 level,, 2 Wis). He critically fails on a 1 or 2 (10% chance) and he needs 12+ to pass (45% chance). The potion Critically fails on a 1 (5%) and passes on a 10+ (55% chance).

So, even with Trained you're better off with a potion. Better chances of succes, half the chance of a fumble, and a fumble doesn't make the dying character be closer to dying.

Yes, you are worst at skills at level 1. A character's skills keep improving. The chances for resonance do not.

Sure, but at higher levels, you have more Resonance too, so the problem is (according to the developers, at least) unlikely to come up in the first place.

The skill is being ommitted because it's unreliable unless you invest in it, which basically goes against the idea a lot of people have that you shouldn't need a dedicated healer to function. PF1E potions require no investment and in a pinch can save a life. Wands require some investment, but the investment (UMD, assuming a cure spell isnt in your class list) let you use all sorts of cool stuff as well as the healing wands. Which meant you could have people be the healer without being shoehorned into it (most of the time, anyway)

Medicine in PF2E requires at least two proficiency bumps (Untrained->Trained->Expert) and a skill Feat (Assurance) just to make it so that you can stabilize dying people 100% of the time (or remove their bleed, but not both). But then, you have the stabilize cantrip which does the same thing, automatically (no idea about stopping bleed effects though). So the mundane option requires a much bigger investment than the spell option, which means you're back to where we were earlier with needing a someone specced just for healing to adventure. That or getting a positive energy cleric. Which is not something you should strive for.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Though you should probably invest if you are relying on the skill as your primary healing. A character with training and medium Wisdom score stops killing people accidentally by level 3.
As I said, lateral/sidegrade move at best. It's still forcing someone to take the healing role.

I get confused when you treat the goals of the system as problems of the system. Yes, the party needs to invest in and manage healing. You have options on how to do that.

A starting skill and some wisdom is still a lot lower investment to "take the healing role" than say, your entire choice of class.

I think the bolded part is what people have most contention with.

If I wanna make a Battle Cleric, I'm forced to have one (or more) of the following issues just because "healing is required":

-Select Positive Energy Channeling instead of Negative Energy Channeling for proper healing in-combat or out-of-combat, instead of having useful energy attacks against resistant enemies.

-Burn spell slots on healing instead of buffing or even damaging/control spells.

-Spend WBL on CLW wands until 10th level, moving to CMW by 15th, and CSW by 20th, and thereby ruin my ability to utilize multiple magic items, because the Wand debacle still actually exists.

If healing is really required (just like the Big 6 was in PF1), then everyone should have something built in to their class to heal (even if just for themselves) in some fashion, without any sort of choice or investment. I shouldn't have to shoehorn my character choices just because "the game requires healing." It's the same reason why people hated the Big 6 in PF1, because "the game required it."

You forgot “Invest in Medicine” on your list. Every class has options for providing healing. They are called skills. The cleric just has more and easier options should she choose to invest her class resources...

It's still something I have to sacrifice just because the game demands or expects me to do it, when that skill rank could instead be going to other skills that are valuable to the character's function, which is the whole point of removing the "Tim/Jim" paradigm.

Remember when everyone said "Always put skill ranks in Perception"? Congratulations, you just changed that to "Always put skill ranks in Medicine." Shifting the problem of "de facto" skills from Perception to Medicine is not a solution for cutting out or down things like the Big 6, much less the "Tim/Jim" paradigm.

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KingOfAnything wrote:
I did say at higher level. By level 7, a character invested in Medicine can succeed at First Aid 100% of the time. A wand or potion only does that so long as you budget the resonance for it.

Actually, someone with Assurance (Medicine) can do this at 3rd level, since Assurance lets you auto-take 15 on an Expert skill.


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TheFinish wrote:
Medicine in PF2E requires at least two proficiency bumps (Untrained->Trained->Expert) and a skill Feat (Assurance) just to make it so that you can stabilize dying people 100% of the time (or remove their bleed, but not both). But then, you have the stabilize cantrip which does the same thing, automatically (no idea about stopping bleed effects though). So the mundane option requires a much bigger investment than the spell option, which means you're back to where we were earlier with needing a someone specced just for healing to adventure. That or getting a positive energy cleric. Which is not something you should strive for.

Two proficiency bumps, one of which can come from your background, and a feat? You and I have different definitions of "someone specced for healing."

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find the idea that a party that spent some in-character resources on healing should have an easier time than one that didn't.

Similarly, a group that includes options for battlefield control will generally have an easier time than one that doesn't, and a group with good options for social skills will also have a better time than one that doesn't.

As long as it's "some resources from some characters" (aka a secondary role) and not "all resources from a single character, and that character is useless for anything else," (aka a primary role) I have no problem at all with PF2e rewarding groups that bring HP / status / ability healing to the table.

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
I did say at higher level. By level 7, a character invested in Medicine can succeed at First Aid 100% of the time. A wand or potion only does that so long as you budget the resonance for it.
Actually, someone with Assurance (Medicine) can do this at 3rd level, since Assurance lets you auto-take 15 on an Expert skill.

I got my Assurance levels confused. Thanks, DMW.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Though you should probably invest if you are relying on the skill as your primary healing. A character with training and medium Wisdom score stops killing people accidentally by level 3.
As I said, lateral/sidegrade move at best. It's still forcing someone to take the healing role.

I get confused when you treat the goals of the system as problems of the system. Yes, the party needs to invest in and manage healing. You have options on how to do that.

A starting skill and some wisdom is still a lot lower investment to "take the healing role" than say, your entire choice of class.

I think the bolded part is what people have most contention with.

If I wanna make a Battle Cleric, I'm forced to have one (or more) of the following issues just because "healing is required":

-Select Positive Energy Channeling instead of Negative Energy Channeling for proper healing in-combat or out-of-combat, instead of having useful energy attacks against resistant enemies.

-Burn spell slots on healing instead of buffing or even damaging/control spells.

-Spend WBL on CLW wands until 10th level, moving to CMW by 15th, and CSW by 20th, and thereby ruin my ability to utilize multiple magic items, because the Wand debacle still actually exists.

If healing is really required (just like the Big 6 was in PF1), then everyone should have something built in to their class to heal (even if just for themselves) in some fashion, without any sort of choice or investment. I shouldn't have to shoehorn my character choices just because "the game requires healing." It's the same reason why people hated the Big 6 in PF1, because "the game required it."

You forgot “Invest in Medicine” on your list. Every class has options for providing healing. They are called skills. The cleric just has more and easier options should she choose
...

Except you don't have to put ranks in it, it's just one of your choices.


  • Healing class features
  • Healing spells
  • Save resonance and spend gold on healing
  • Use the medicine skill

1 and 2 require specific sets of classes.
3 and 4 anyone can do, although it takes investment.


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Cheburn wrote:
Two proficiency bumps, one of which can come from your background, and a feat? You and I have different definitions of "someone specced for healing."

But when does this character get to start putting bumps in skills that actually fit his character? 7th? Seems quite late for my know for [fill in skill like locksmith, climber, performer, ect] to sit around with just trained.

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graystone wrote:
Cheburn wrote:
Two proficiency bumps, one of which can come from your background, and a feat? You and I have different definitions of "someone specced for healing."
But when does this character get to start putting bumps in skills that actually fit his character? 7th? Seems quite late for my know for [fill in skill like locksmith, climber, performer, ect] to sit around with just trained.

It would be 5th level when you can become an expert Baker as well as Medicine worker. If the Medicine skill is not even tangential to your character, feel free to spend gold and budget resonance instead.


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Cheburn wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
Medicine in PF2E requires at least two proficiency bumps (Untrained->Trained->Expert) and a skill Feat (Assurance) just to make it so that you can stabilize dying people 100% of the time (or remove their bleed, but not both). But then, you have the stabilize cantrip which does the same thing, automatically (no idea about stopping bleed effects though). So the mundane option requires a much bigger investment than the spell option, which means you're back to where we were earlier with needing a someone specced just for healing to adventure. That or getting a positive energy cleric. Which is not something you should strive for.

Two proficiency bumps, one of which can come from your background, and a feat? You and I have different definitions of "someone specced for healing."

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find the idea that a party that spent some in-character resources on healing should have an easier time than one that didn't.

Similarly, a group that includes options for battlefield control will generally have an easier time than one that doesn't, and a group with good options for social skills will also have a better time than one that doesn't.

As long as it's "some resources from some characters" (aka a secondary role) and not "all resources from a single character, and that character is useless for anything else," (aka a primary role) I have no problem at all with PF2e rewarding groups that bring HP / status / ability healing to the table.

Nobody's talking about "having an easier time" we're talking about "get this, or something similar, or you're in for a horrible time". And without being able to rely on consumables, you're basically saying people have to invest into healing, in some form, or they're screwed. Whether that's somone taking the Medicine skill or playing a dedicated healer cleric is irrelevant. It still presents a problem if nobody wants to because they think it's boring.

As for investing, well, two Proficiency bumps is asking for quite a bit, yes. It's either 2/9 Skill increases if you didn't use one of your 1st level options and 1/9 if you did. Because remember you need it at Expert, and you can't get that with Skill Feats (though maybe you can with a Class feat). So I just delayed advancing a skill I actually wanted to get Medicine to a point where it's as reliable as a cantrip. Hooray.

Except to get it to be that reliable I also need one of my 10 (or 11? Do 1st level characters get a Skill Feat? I honestly don't know) Skill Feats. You know, the ones that are supposed to let me do cool stuff? Except I have to use it to basically get a worse Take 10 mechanic. Marvelous.

And this is just to stabilize a guy, not to actually, you know, be able to heal people. So I expect being a guy that can heal on par with a Cleric to be extremely hard (if it's even possible). Time will tell if it's enough to actually function.

And yes, I am aware of Mark's comments about the Barbarian as a healer. I want to know how much it took for them to reach that point, and how it compares to other healing options, before I declare it's good enough for the system.


TheFinish wrote:
Cheburn wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
Medicine in PF2E requires at least two proficiency bumps (Untrained->Trained->Expert) and a skill Feat (Assurance) just to make it so that you can stabilize dying people 100% of the time (or remove their bleed, but not both). But then, you have the stabilize cantrip which does the same thing, automatically (no idea about stopping bleed effects though). So the mundane option requires a much bigger investment than the spell option, which means you're back to where we were earlier with needing a someone specced just for healing to adventure. That or getting a positive energy cleric. Which is not something you should strive for.

Two proficiency bumps, one of which can come from your background, and a feat? You and I have different definitions of "someone specced for healing."

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find the idea that a party that spent some in-character resources on healing should have an easier time than one that didn't.

Similarly, a group that includes options for battlefield control will generally have an easier time than one that doesn't, and a group with good options for social skills will also have a better time than one that doesn't.

As long as it's "some resources from some characters" (aka a secondary role) and not "all resources from a single character, and that character is useless for anything else," (aka a primary role) I have no problem at all with PF2e rewarding groups that bring HP / status / ability healing to the table.

Nobody's talking about "having an easier time" we're talking about "get this, or something similar, or you're in for a horrible time". And without being able to rely on consumables, you're basically saying people have to invest into healing, in some form, or they're screwed. Whether that's somone taking the Medicine skill or playing a dedicated healer cleric is irrelevant. It still presents a problem if nobody wants to because they think it's boring.

As for investing, well, two Proficiency bumps is...

You can also spend 60 gp (once) and 1 RP (every day) and be able to stabilize all day.

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TheFinish wrote:

Nobody's talking about "having an easier time" we're talking about "get this, or something similar, or you're in for a horrible time". And without being able to rely on consumables, you're basically saying people have to invest into healing, in some form, or they're screwed. Whether that's somone taking the Medicine skill or playing a dedicated healer cleric is irrelevant. It still presents a problem if nobody wants to because they think it's boring.

As for investing, well, two Proficiency bumps is...

You can rely on consumables if you budget your resonance for it. Some people just don't like to do that.

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