Trinkets and Treasures

Monday, June 25, 2018

Wayfinder. Bag of holding. Ring of the ram. Staff of power. Holy avenger.

The magic items you find during your adventures become a part of your story and let you do things beyond the techniques you've mastered and the spells you know. So how do these essentials of the game work in the Pathfinder Playtest?

Magic items are used in three major ways: by investing them, by activating them, or automatically. Invested items are ones you wear that you have to prepare as you don them, after which they work continuously. Activating items follows a system similar to that used for spells. Just as casting a spell requires you to spend actions to supply the somatic, verbal, and material components of the spell, activated items require you to use the Command Activation, Focus Activation, or Operate Activation action, or a combination of multiple actions. A potion requires you to spend an Operate Activation action to drink it. A necklace of fireballs requires you to spend 2 Operate Activation actions to unbind a bead and throw it. Activating a luck blade to reroll an attack just takes a mental nudge with a Focus Activation reaction (though you get to do that only once per day). Automatic activation happens with a small category of items that give their benefit whenever they're used for their normal purpose. A prime example is a sword with the frost property rune, which is always coated with frost and needs only hit a foe to deal extra cold damage.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Resonance

Activating or investing an item costs 1 Resonance Point (RP). You might have heard a bit about this on the Glass Cannon podcast! Resonance is a new resource all characters have that can be used to activate items. Your innate magic item resonance is represented by a number of Resonance Points equal to your level plus your Charisma modifier. This ties back to the Pathfinder First Edition concept of Charisma as the main ability score tied to innate magic, as seen in the Use Magic Device skill and the fact that Charisma is used for spell-like abilities, oracles, sorcerers, and so forth. However, in Pathfinder Second Edition, true scholars of itemcraft *cough*alchemists*cough* might get to use their Intelligence instead.

The idea of resonance stems from the Pathfinder First Edition occultist, who was able to tap into the magical potential of items, and even before that to the idea of resonance between creatures and various magic items, as seen with the resonant powers of wayfinders. We've expanded that concept to apply to everyone. In practical terms, you're really unlikely to run out of Resonance Points unless you're using an absurd number of items, and you're at the greatest risk at low levels. You still have a chance even if your pool is empty, though. You can overspend Resonance Points! If you're at 0 RP, you can attempt to activate or invest an item anyway. You need to attempt a flat check (a d20 roll with no modifiers) against a DC equal to 10 + the number of points you've overspent today. So the first item has a 50% chance of working, and it gets more risky from there.

We expect Resonance Points to be a contentious topic, and we're really curious to see how it plays at your tables. It's one of the more experimental changes to the game, and the playtest process gives us a chance to see it in the wild before committing to it. Here are the advantages we see from a design perspective:

  1. Using items is clear and consistent. Spend the required actions and 1 RP, and you activate or invest your item. If someone else wants to use the same item, you can remove it and let them put it on and invest it themselves.
  2. You have less to track. We get to remove some of the sub-pools that individual items have (such as "10 rounds per day which need not be consecutive" or "5 charges") because we know you have an overall limited resource. There are still some items that can't be used without limit, but they get to be special exceptions rather than being common out of necessity.
  3. It puts the focus on the strongest items. Because you can't activate items indefinitely, your best bet is to use the most RP-efficient item, not the most gp-efficient item. You want a high-level healing wand because you get more healing for your Resonance Point rather than getting a bunch of low-level wands because they're cheap.
  4. Investiture limits what you can wear. That means we don't need to rely heavily on an item slot system, creating more flexibility in what kind of worn items are useful. You'll read more about this on the blog on Friday, when we talk about removing the magic item Christmas tree!

Will those benefits be compelling? Will people prefer this system over the Pathfinder First Edition system? We look forward to finding out!

Want to look at an item to see how this works in practice?

Cloak of Elvenkind Item 10+

Illusion, Invested, Magical

Method of Use worn, cloak; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Focus Activation, [[A]] Operate Activation


This cloak is deep green with a voluminous hood, and is embroidered with gold trim and symbols of significance to the elves. The cloak allows you to cast the ghost sound cantrip as an innate arcane spell. When you draw the hood up over your head (an Interact action), the cloak transforms to match the environment around you and muffles your sounds, giving you an item bonus to Stealth checks. If you activate the cloak, you pull the hood up and are affected by invisibility for 1 minute or until you pull the hood back down, whichever comes first.

Type standard; Level 10; Price 1,000 gp

The cloak grants a +3 bonus.

Type greater; Level 18; Price 24,000 gp

The cloak grants a +5 bonus, and invisibility is 4th level. If you're also wearing greater boots of elvenkind, the greater cloak of elvenkind allows you to Sneak in forest environments even when creatures are currently observing you.

Here's a fairly complex item to show multiple parts of the system at once. The cloak of elvenkind is level 10, and there's also a greater cloak of elvenkind with an item level of 18. In case you missed it in the crafting blog, items have levels now, which indicate the point at which you can craft them (as well as being handy for the GM when making treasure hoards). Method of use indicates that this item is worn and that it's a cloak. A few items have this two-part listing because they're hard to wear multiples of. Multiple cloaks, multiple boots... not practical. Multiple rings or amulets? No problem.

This item is both invested (note the invested trait) and activated (as you can see by the activation entry). Investing the cloak lets you cast ghost sound. You get this benefit as long as the cloak is invested, which means you can cast the spell whenever you want without activating the cloak and therefore without spending more Resonance Points. You can also get an item bonus to Stealth checks from the cloak (+3 or +5 for a greater cloak). Finally, you can activate the cloak as you raise the hood, spending 1 Resonance Point to turn invisible! Certainly not every item has as much going on as a cloak of elvenkind, but several classic items seemed like they needed a little extra special treatment! What do you think? Too much?

How about something simpler?

Floating Shield Item 13

Magical

Price 2,800 gp

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


This master-quality light wooden shield (Hardness 6) protects you without requiring you to spend actions each round. When you activate this shield, you can release it from your grip as a part of that action. The shield floats in the air next to you, granting you its bonus automatically, as if you Raised the Shield. Because you're not wielding the shield, you can't use reactions such as Shield Block with the shield.

After 1 minute, the shield drops to the ground, ending its floating effect. While the shield is adjacent to you, you can grasp it with an Interact action, ending its floating effect.

You can hold this and use it just like any other shield. Activating it lets you free up a hand to cause the shield to float, where it protects you without you spending an action! While the floating shield offers far less Hardness than many magic shields of a similar level (some have Hardness up to 18!), it's not meant for Shield Block, and its abilities allow you to use it even with a character who needs both hands for other things.

Now let's look at two special types of items: one revamped classic and one brand-new category!

Staves

We went through several different iterations of staves. They needed to remain a powerful tool for spellcasters, but we also wanted them to appear earlier in the game so you didn't have to wait for most staves to appear at higher levels. Let's see the staff of healing!

Staff of Healing Item 3+

Invested, Magical, Necromancy, Staff

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk 1

Activation Cast a Spell (1 RP)


Made of smooth white wood, this staff is capped at each end with a golden cross adorned with a multitude of ruby cabochons. A staff of healing adds an item bonus to the Hit Points you restore any time you cast the heal spell using your own spell slots, using charges from the staff, or from channel energy.

Type minor; Level 3; Price 60 gp; Maximum Charges 3

The item bonus to heal spells is +1.

  • stabilize (cantrip)
  • heal (level 1)

I've included only the level 3 minor staff of healing here. There are also versions at levels 7, 11, and 15, and they add higher-level heal spells, plus restoration, remove disease, restore senses, and more! A staff is tied to you, which means you have to invest it, unlike most held items. This investiture has two extra benefits. First off, it links the staff to you, preventing anyone else from investing the staff for 24 hours. More importantly, it restores charges to the staff equal to the highest level of spell you can cast. You don't have to expend any spells to do this; it's all part of using your Resonance Points. You'll notice this also means that if you find one of these as a 1st-level character, it will take you longer to recharge it than if you're a higher-level spellcaster. You also get the item bonus to healing as long as you hold the invested staff.

Now how do you cast these spells? Well, you activate the staff as part of casting one of the spells in it (spending 1 RP as usual). Then you have two options: You can either expend charges from the staff equal to the spell's level (1 charge for heal here) or expend one of your own spells of that level or higher. Yeah, your staff essentially lets you spontaneously cast the spells in it!

Trinkets

How about something completely different? One thing we wanted to add was a type of item that was like scrolls for martial characters. Spellcasters use scrolls and everyone uses potions, but how about something special that relies on nonmagical skills? Trinkets were the answer! Our first example was designed specifically for fighters.

Fear Gem Item 4

Consumable, Enchantment, Fear, Magical, Mental, Trinket

Price 11 gp

Method of Use affixed, weapon; Bulk

Activation [[F]] Focus Activation; Trigger You use Intimidating Strike, but haven't rolled for the attack yet.


Dark smoke seems to writhe within this obsidian gem. When you activate the gem, if your Intimidating Strike hits, the target is frightened 2 and flat-footed against your attacks until the end of your next turn. If the attack roll is a critical success, the target is flat-footed against your attacks for 1 minute.

Trinkets all have the consumable trait, meaning they're used up after being activated once. They have the "affixed" method of use, and as this one indicates, it has to be affixed to a weapon. You can activate it with a Focus Activation as a free action when you use the Intimidating Strike action from the fighter feat of the same name. This makes the Intimidating Strike more severe, increasing its effect to frightened 2 instead of frightened 1 and making it especially strong on a critical success.

Now how about a trinket that's less specific?

Vanishing Coin Item 9

Consumable, Illusion, Magical, Trinket

Price 85 gp

Method of Use affixed, armor; Bulk

Activation [[F]] Focus Activation; Trigger You attempt a Stealth check for initiative, but haven't rolled yet.

Requirements You are a master in Stealth.


This copper coin dangles from a leather strip strung through a hole drilled into the coin's center. It's usually tied just below the throat on a suit of armor. Until it is activated, the coin becomes invisible for a few seconds every few minutes, but always at random intervals. When you activate the coin, you gain the benefits of a 2nd-level invisibility spell until the end of your next turn.

Anyone with master proficiency in Stealth can use this trinket by affixing it to her armor. She can turn invisible by activating the coin when she rolls a Stealth check for initiative. Pretty useful in the first round of a fight!

Well, there's a lot to say about magic items, and we'll have more to say on Friday. For now, I'm going to leave you with a short list of some of the new items appearing in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook in addition to the classics.

  • Anklets of alacrity
  • Feather step stone
  • Forge warden
  • Grim trophy
  • Handwraps of mighty fists
  • Oil of weightlessness
  • Persona mask
  • Potency crystal
  • Runestone
  • Spell duelist's wand
  • Third eye
  • Virtuoso's instrument

Tell us what sorts of items you'd like to see in the final rulebook!

Logan Bonner
Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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Wandering Wastrel wrote:
Have I misread your post? Because it sounds like you're saying 2 mutually contradictory things: (1) Resonance is good because people want cheaper things, which is bad; (2) Resonance is good because it allows for cheaper magic items.

I feel like "healing is too cheap" (because the wand that heals 50d8 is 750 gold), so you can effectively be at full health whenever you're not actively fighting, is a different thing than "items are inexpensive."

Since the issue with the wand is that the only way to really control wandspam is with a tight leash on the PCs ability to afford or buy stuff. If there's some other limit on "how much magic healing the party can do" (e.g. resonance) then you can make the magic wands super-cheap because a party won't be blowing through a dozen CLW wands in an attempt to complete the entire dungeon in a single day.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
MerlinCross wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Smart people managing resources intelligently does not prove the resource meaningless.
So those of us worried are just Dumb now?

Have you played the playtest and blown through all your resonance in the first encounter? Yes, then maybe you are dumb. If you haven't had a chance to play the playtest and are just a worried bystander, then I wasn't really talking about you.


QuidEst wrote:
Wandering Wastrel wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

The resource has a couple valuable uses even if you don’t run out:

- It discourages behavior that would cause it to run out, or risk it. It’s not something people necessarily like, because folks generally want more stuff for cheaper, but it’s still something that can improve the quality of the game.
- It allows for cheaper magic items. They don’t have to worry about people stocking up on copies of a 3/day item of those uses are instead drawn from the same pool.
Have I misread your post? Because it sounds like you're saying 2 mutually contradictory things: (1) Resonance is good because people want cheaper things, which is bad; (2) Resonance is good because it allows for cheaper magic items.

Ah, I’m sorry! That was terribly unclear of me.

New, shiny things can be cheaper- cooler stuff available earlier without upsetting balance down the road. The low-level stuff is probably cheaper too, but it’s no longer efficient enough to use after a certain point.

I don’t mean to say that more/cheaper stuff is inherently bad; just that it’s inherently desired even if it’s a situation where it’s bad (for some significant subset of gameplay experiences). “Health outside of combat becomes meaningless” is one of those things that people want, but might actually hurt gameplay experience. I don’t know the right balance there, though.

Being able to get shinier new things, though, I’d guess that’s good for gameplay experience. (There’s clearly a point where that stops being true, though.)

Thanks - that actually makes a lot of sense, and (viewed through that prism) I can see the rationale for having the Resonance mechanic.

I still think it's trying to solve a problem that I haven't really encountered, and I still have real reservations about introducing yet another resource that players will have to track, as well as the risk of trying to enforce One True Way of playing. So overall I would rather do without it. But I accept that I may be in the minority on this one.


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I'm not sure if Resonance is really "one more thing to track" necessarily since it replaces tracking the 10 round duration on your boots of speed, how many animals you've pulled from your bag of tricks, how long you've used your broom of flying, how many times you've cast dimension door with your cape of the mountebank, etc. all at the same time.

So perhaps in some cases we've replaced tracking 1 thing with tracking 2 things, but in other cases we've replaced tracking 6 things with tracking 1 thing.


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KingOfAnything wrote:


That is a logical fallacy called begging the question. You can't assume that resonance is meaningless to prove that it is meaningless.

Begging the question isn't a logical fallacy unless the question is definitively already answered, and it's meant as a misleading question designed to induce the opposite conclusion from reality. In this case we don't know that for certain - heck the devs don't either given the statements that they want us to test the 'heck' out of this. Your certainty that this question is false shows your bias, which is fine to have but not if you are going to accuse me of trying to sway the argument dishonestly.

Quote:
Right. Meaningful choices make for compelling gameplay.

Meaningful choices (as stated in my post) are not meaningful if you normal play results in no choice needing to be made at all. If you aren't expected to run out - then there is no 'meaningful choice' unless you are put into a stress situation that is intended to tax that specific resource. How often is that going to happen? Often enough that players will feel stressed about this limit in normal play all the time? Is that fun? Interesting choices shouldn't induce stress constantly. Resource management is so *not fun* for so many people that most of the systems in the game are ignored or removed already - the ones that people do use aren't ones that impact their characters in detrimental ways.

When those resources that are used universally run low - it does cause stress and people complain that the game is no longer fun. I will *not* google search for you but if you are really interested search these forums for 'low treasure' - pay attention the AP threads - even Rise of the Runelords gets *blasted* for having low wealth which creates stress for the players, which leads to accusations of 'unfun'.

Perhaps you don't ever play with people who refuse to use disposable magic items because of the stress they feel over 'using it now but then regretting it because it would have been more useful later'? How much stress will a system like this induce in someone who already would rather not use a potion of bull's strength? I mean I know people who stress out over keeping track of arrows - which I enforce despite the stress because it's so important for balance reasons. Until they got the re-usable arrows - which are a thing.

I have to wonder why so many items that are popular are the ones that remove the need for resource management?

Portable Hole? Yeah - people only want one so they can stop ignoring the wagon of loot they carry is unreal.

Quote:


Again, people managing their resources comfortably does not make it worthless. Players made choices with tradeoffs and used strategic thinking.

Or it induces un-wanted stress on players, or even punishes them for trying to continue on through a rough adventuring day.

Quote:


Curbing low-level magic spam is not the only outcome or objective of the resonance system. Cheaper magic items, greater flexibility between combat and utility items, and a single pool rather than 3-20 sets of X/day are all benefits of the system. Framing the system as merely enforcing a certain style of play does a discredit to the designers.

There is no part of this system that doesn't enforce a certain style of play. I will not feel shame for accusing the designers of doing their job. I think it's fair to question if the style of play that it enforces is fun. When the stated goal implies that the resource isn't relevant in typical play sessions I think it's an honest question if it's worth all the trouble it brings to the table.

At the end of the day there should be a list of things *we* test this system for - I know there will be 'stated goals' for testing - but this is what I want to see - does this system drag on players that already get option paralysis? How much does this extra tracking drag onto a player I already steer towards a character design with no trackable anything because they want to play and have fun and are a great role player - but can't deal with the rules as they already were? How often are players running out of resonance? Will my players ignore magic items so they can heal up (I forsee this happening).

Considering the rather deep changes to the game this system brings with it - I feel like it has quite a bit of weight to haul to prove it was worth the change.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Wandering Wastrel wrote:
Have I misread your post? Because it sounds like you're saying 2 mutually contradictory things: (1) Resonance is good because people want cheaper things, which is bad; (2) Resonance is good because it allows for cheaper magic items.

I feel like "healing is too cheap" (because the wand that heals 50d8 is 750 gold), so you can effectively be at full health whenever you're not actively fighting, is a different thing than "items are inexpensive."

Since the issue with the wand is that the only way to really control wandspam is with a tight leash on the PCs ability to afford or buy stuff. If there's some other limit on "how much magic healing the party can do" (e.g. resonance) then you can make the magic wands super-cheap because a party won't be blowing through a dozen CLW wands in an attempt to complete the entire dungeon in a single day.

I really don't understand what is wrong with a party blowing through the entire dungeon in a single day.

But, if it is genuinely a problem, then there's a much, much simpler solution than Resonance.

Make Wands Magical Again.

Don't have wands that simply replicate spell effects. Abolish the CLW wand, the Mage Armour wand. That's what scrolls are for! Make wands do weird, wonderful, amazing things. Make finding a wand into a genuine bit of treasure.

THAT is something I could get behind.

Liberty's Edge

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Wandering Wastrel wrote:

Make Wands Magical Again.

Don't have wands that simply replicate spell effects. Abolish the CLW wand, the Mage Armour wand. That's what scrolls are for! Make wands do weird, wonderful, amazing things. Make finding a wand into a genuine bit of treasure.

THAT is something I could get behind.

I am 110% on board with this idea, even if it may be a bit late to change things for the Playtest. I would LOVE to see Paizo give a playest "round" a shot whereby Wands are turned into something ENTIRELY different, something closer to what the Meta-Magic Rods are.

The fantasy trope of spellcasters waving wands at each other shows them using ANY spell they know with the wand as a focus, with some wands being more powerful or unique. I can't recall ANY stories that didn't rely on the Crunch of the 3.0+ Edition Rules as a backdrop that featured a wand that works as they presently do, a reusable single-spell stick.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:

While it's on my mind, I would note that I haven't ever actually encountered anyone, certainly not a player, who hates abundant magic items except in a specifically low magic setting. What we hate is the mandatory boring items, the big 6 et all, that break the game's math if you don't have them. So chopping down the Christmas Tree doesn't actually strike me as a good goal in and of itself. Just give us /interesting/ items, items that /do stuff/ instead of being just a bunch of numerical bonuses.

If we still end up with a bunch of bonus items outside weapons and armor, and if any of them start being considered mandatory, then this whole exercise is a failure.

This is also my concern - that in under a week the player base will come up with a new "must have" series of items regardless of what the devs put up as a playtest.

Resonance, to me, feels like a ham-fisted attempt to impose a game-wide tax on magical items just to prevent players from using them. It's almost a throw back to 1e AD&D where only certain classes could use certain items, except this is worse. I'm completely confused where Paizo is coming up with these players who have complained so vociferously about the number of magical items in their campaigns. I can't find any, and it seems like others are coming to the same conclusion.

There are some great ideas inherent in resonance. In some ways, it's the natural extension of the wizard's item familiar or the talking sword or any number of fantasy tropes. But the idea needs serious refinement.

I would much prefer to see resonance only apply to non-consumable items (things you wear, etc..) and that the resonance provide some inherent bonus. For example - the highest bonus to AC without resonance for an armor would be +2. Once you add it into your resonance pool, you can tap into the whole aspect of the armor and unlock its full potential of +4, fortitude. Same thing with staves. Anyone can (with UMD) use up a charge on a staff, but that staff will always be at minimum CL. Resonate with it and you can recharge the staff as well as use your own CL.

You'd probably have to increase resonance at every 2 or 3 levels (rather than getting it at every level) then to balance it out.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm not sure if Resonance is really "one more thing to track" necessarily since it replaces tracking the 10 round duration on your boots of speed, how many animals you've pulled from your bag of tricks, how long you've used your broom of flying, how many times you've cast dimension door with your cape of the mountebank, etc. all at the same time.

So perhaps in some cases we've replaced tracking 1 thing with tracking 2 things, but in other cases we've replaced tracking 6 things with tracking 1 thing.

Actually, your example(and a PM I wrote up), made it a bit more clear as to why I dislike the Resonance system. At least part of it. And it's not even due to "Keeping Track".

Boots of Speed vs Bag of Tricks vs Broom of Flying vs Cape of Mountebank vs....

They all pull for the same pool now. All of them. Before they could be compared to each other through gold and/or Action cost. Now there's a third variable they need to be measured up against. Resonance. Is what I'm getting out of it Worth spending it? Cause I don't think Bag of Tricks has a chance in your example.

Because now, it's not just simply compared to each other in their own class. Before, we compared rings to rings. Cloaks to Cloaks. Sure there was probably some comparison outside of their slots, to make sure you couldn't get it cheaper or to avoid overlap. But with Resonance, now that comparison is that ring vs every other ring..., and every Cloak, Belt, Wand, Potion, and any other number of items that all draw from that one Well. Resonance.

So, yeah. I don't need to track how many animals I've pulled from Bag of Tricks. But even though I'm not big on math, I can't fathom how it's worth to spend a Resonance to pull out some random animal. Not when I have Wand of Nature's Ally. Resonance has made me not need to track Bag of Tricks, twice over.

Now I could still pick it up and use the Bag. But I'll still have to compared it to any potions I pick up too. And good gravy, if you get one of those people that just worships the Math at your table.


Wandering Wastrel wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Wandering Wastrel wrote:
Have I misread your post? Because it sounds like you're saying 2 mutually contradictory things: (1) Resonance is good because people want cheaper things, which is bad; (2) Resonance is good because it allows for cheaper magic items.

I feel like "healing is too cheap" (because the wand that heals 50d8 is 750 gold), so you can effectively be at full health whenever you're not actively fighting, is a different thing than "items are inexpensive."

Since the issue with the wand is that the only way to really control wandspam is with a tight leash on the PCs ability to afford or buy stuff. If there's some other limit on "how much magic healing the party can do" (e.g. resonance) then you can make the magic wands super-cheap because a party won't be blowing through a dozen CLW wands in an attempt to complete the entire dungeon in a single day.

I really don't understand what is wrong with a party blowing through the entire dungeon in a single day.

But, if it is genuinely a problem, then there's a much, much simpler solution than Resonance.

Make Wands Magical Again.

Don't have wands that simply replicate spell effects. Abolish the CLW wand, the Mage Armour wand. That's what scrolls are for! Make wands do weird, wonderful, amazing things. Make finding a wand into a genuine bit of treasure.

THAT is something I could get behind.

Yes, so much this, the real issue to me are multi use consumables, those just should not exist, leave consumables as single use only and make Wands permanent magic items, the equivalent for casters of magic weapons are for martials.


I mean unless there's a multi-use consumable version of trinkets, I don't see why there needs to be one for potions or scrolls.


edduardco wrote:
Wandering Wastrel wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Wandering Wastrel wrote:
Have I misread your post? Because it sounds like you're saying 2 mutually contradictory things: (1) Resonance is good because people want cheaper things, which is bad; (2) Resonance is good because it allows for cheaper magic items.

I feel like "healing is too cheap" (because the wand that heals 50d8 is 750 gold), so you can effectively be at full health whenever you're not actively fighting, is a different thing than "items are inexpensive."

Since the issue with the wand is that the only way to really control wandspam is with a tight leash on the PCs ability to afford or buy stuff. If there's some other limit on "how much magic healing the party can do" (e.g. resonance) then you can make the magic wands super-cheap because a party won't be blowing through a dozen CLW wands in an attempt to complete the entire dungeon in a single day.

I really don't understand what is wrong with a party blowing through the entire dungeon in a single day.

But, if it is genuinely a problem, then there's a much, much simpler solution than Resonance.

Make Wands Magical Again.

Don't have wands that simply replicate spell effects. Abolish the CLW wand, the Mage Armour wand. That's what scrolls are for! Make wands do weird, wonderful, amazing things. Make finding a wand into a genuine bit of treasure.

THAT is something I could get behind.

Yes, so much this, the real issue to me are multi use consumables, those just should not exist, leave consumables as single use only and make Wands permanent magic items, the equivalent for casters of magic weapons are for martials.

What was it..., there's a humorous story about Wands I saw over on Reddit I think(That's where I saw it first at least), but an 'adventure' set up for laughs.

Merchant comes into town, has a barrel of 100 wands. Wants people to test them as the makers didn't label them. When using a wand, DM rolled and compared from this huge list of effects to see what each wand did. Said wand would be locked into that effect for the rest of the game but hey, 99 to go.

While that's a bit too crazy to balance I would think(The 'adventure' is done for laughs, like Wild Magic), I don't see why Wands couldn't have their own pool of effects to draw from instead of the Spell list. It would also let them stand away from Potions(Which are supposed to be getting retooled), and Scrolls.

It felt odd to have 3 things mimic spells, and 2 of them are consumables.


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So outside of 1 staff in the art, there is nothing good or even decent about this blog post.

Poor formatting of items. Unnecessary complication. Uninteresting items. Poor pricing balance from the limited quantity seen.

Oh and the big one resonance. It has nothing salvagable, when I saw the shifter I thought that was as bad as it was gonna get from Paizo after firearms rules, but nope. This is based on false premises, with bad conclusions and even worse execution. People have gone through all the faults in the system and even the basic idea of it before this blog post so I will not repeat them here. But suffice to say that if resonance makes it in any way or form into the final product, it's a deal breaker.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm not sure if Resonance is really "one more thing to track" necessarily since it replaces tracking the 10 round duration on your boots of speed, how many animals you've pulled from your bag of tricks, how long you've used your broom of flying, how many times you've cast dimension door with your cape of the mountebank, etc. all at the same time.

So perhaps in some cases we've replaced tracking 1 thing with tracking 2 things, but in other cases we've replaced tracking 6 things with tracking 1 thing.

That's a misnomer. Those spells aren't all "fire and forget," you're still keeping track of durations/uses, as well as bonuses (if any) being applied, and now you're throwing an additional universal resource on top of it to keep track if you can use this item, that item, and so on, while still mostly maintaining durations, uses, and bonuses.

So no, it's not a selective replacement, whatsoever.


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One of the devs said potions won't be "spells in a can" anymore.
Also, alchemy will be expanding non-caster options.
So scrolls will be the one-shot spells.
Wands will be the spells in bulk.
Staves will be the spell batteries/expanded spell choices.

And yes, I think Resonance works well to keep magic usage modest, and when used so, Resonance has not proven an issue in playtesting.
Whether modest magic usage should be a goal is a separate question based on both setting and immersiveness, but I prefer it myself.

I am perhaps one of the greater abusers of low-level magic items, with several characters who carry dozens of scrolls and a few with over a dozen wands (because the PFS PP system is whackadoodle). I freely burn several 1-minute charges on buffs before every door because I know by the time I reach the end of the wand, I'll have purchased a replacement wand or permanent version.
Yes, I could rein myself in, but to some degree that IS reined in because there are several more useful wands I could also afford to get. And this is for mid-level play.

When one gets to high-level (16th+), PCs become disco balls. I've GMed at this level many times, and those PCs have over a dozen Ioun stones and a dozen plus other knickknacks, not including all the consumables and standard equipment. And CLW wands are like fortified candy, eaten in bulk with casual disregard.

I like that Resonance veers PF2 away from that MMORPG style where superheroes stay in costume as they walk the streets.
If anything, Resonance should simplify gameplay by making one's magic items (or usage of items) significant choices, not just offhand purchases (which accumulate into mountains).
I like even more that the playtesters are saying Resonance hasn't been an issue. That suggests the lack of spamming & lack of minutiae magic hasn't altered gameplay enough to complain.
I also like that I can pump Resonance into what were limited use items in PF1 rather than have to buy a backup.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
and now you're throwing an additional universal resource on top of it to keep track if you can use this item

Resonance isn't on top of uses per day. It replaces uses per day for non-consumable items.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
and now you're throwing an additional universal resource on top of it to keep track if you can use this item
Resonance isn't on top of uses per day. It replaces uses per day for non-consumable items.

Staves and Luck blade would like to differ with that


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Castilliano wrote:


I like that Resonance veers PF2 away from that MMORPG style where superheroes stay in costume as they walk the streets.

Hold up. Can you elaborate on this point?

Liberty's Edge

edduardco wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
and now you're throwing an additional universal resource on top of it to keep track if you can use this item
Resonance isn't on top of uses per day. It replaces uses per day for non-consumable items.
Staves and Luck blade would like to differ with that

I think Staves have charges rather than x uses per day

Where is the PF2 Luck Blade ? I dont remember seeing it

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
edduardco wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
and now you're throwing an additional universal resource on top of it to keep track if you can use this item
Resonance isn't on top of uses per day. It replaces uses per day for non-consumable items.
Staves and Luck blade would like to differ with that

I think Staves have charges rather than x uses per day

Where is the PF2 Luck Blade ? I dont remember seeing it

It was mentioned, briefly, in the blog. The reroll is still 1/day.

Ninja Edit:

The Blog wrote:
Activating a luck blade to reroll an attack just takes a mental nudge with a Focus Activation reaction (though you get to do that only once per day).


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
and now you're throwing an additional universal resource on top of it to keep track if you can use this item
Resonance isn't on top of uses per day. It replaces uses per day for non-consumable items.

As edduardco stated, only some items have unlimited uses which require resonance, and other published items (featured in this blog no less) do not, and still adhere to daily limitations.

At best, it's a sidegrade. At worst, you have more to worry about than before.

So far, I'm not looking to be more inclined to use consumables in PF2 in comparison to PF1 (of which I almost never use unless it's my only option).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
edduardco wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
and now you're throwing an additional universal resource on top of it to keep track if you can use this item
Resonance isn't on top of uses per day. It replaces uses per day for non-consumable items.
Staves and Luck blade would like to differ with that

Notable exceptions to prove the rule.


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The Raven Black wrote:
edduardco wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
and now you're throwing an additional universal resource on top of it to keep track if you can use this item
Resonance isn't on top of uses per day. It replaces uses per day for non-consumable items.
Staves and Luck blade would like to differ with that

I think Staves have charges rather than x uses per day

Where is the PF2 Luck Blade ? I dont remember seeing it

I don't see much difference between charges and uses per day other than semantics.

EDIT: Speaking on permanent items

Liberty's Edge

Paul Watson wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
edduardco wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
and now you're throwing an additional universal resource on top of it to keep track if you can use this item
Resonance isn't on top of uses per day. It replaces uses per day for non-consumable items.
Staves and Luck blade would like to differ with that

I think Staves have charges rather than x uses per day

Where is the PF2 Luck Blade ? I dont remember seeing it

It was mentioned, briefly, in the blog. The reroll is still 1/day.

Ninja Edit:

The Blog wrote:
Activating a luck blade to reroll an attack just takes a mental nudge with a Focus Activation reaction (though you get to do that only once per day).

Once per day is still a thing

What Resonance replaces is several times per day clauses on permanent items

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
edduardco wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
edduardco wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
and now you're throwing an additional universal resource on top of it to keep track if you can use this item
Resonance isn't on top of uses per day. It replaces uses per day for non-consumable items.
Staves and Luck blade would like to differ with that

I think Staves have charges rather than x uses per day

Where is the PF2 Luck Blade ? I dont remember seeing it

I don't see much difference between charges and uses per day other than semantics.

EDIT: Speaking on permanent items

Staves don't start with a set number of charges per day. It's variable how many charges they start with. That is a sharp contrast with items that have constant uses per day.


KingOfAnything wrote:
edduardco wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
edduardco wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
and now you're throwing an additional universal resource on top of it to keep track if you can use this item
Resonance isn't on top of uses per day. It replaces uses per day for non-consumable items.
Staves and Luck blade would like to differ with that

I think Staves have charges rather than x uses per day

Where is the PF2 Luck Blade ? I dont remember seeing it

I don't see much difference between charges and uses per day other than semantics.

EDIT: Speaking on permanent items

Staves don't start with a set number of charges per day. It's variable how many charges they start with. That is a sharp contrast with items that have constant uses per day.

Yeah I know, is just that I see uses per day as charged items with auto-recharge. What I mean by saying that I don't see the difference is in how they limit use, is still an small amount per day, when Resonance was first leaked I thought it would replace both.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
edduardco wrote:
Yeah I know, is just that I see uses per day as charged items with auto-recharge. What I mean by saying that I don't see the difference is in how they limit use, is still an small amount per day, when Resonance was first leaked I though it would replace both.

I'm all for getting rid of wands and having staves be the only item with charges. Staves are complex enough that it makes sense for them to keep using charges.


Castilliano wrote:


...

I like that Resonance veers PF2 away from that MMORPG style where superheroes stay in costume as they walk the streets.
If anything, Resonance should simplify gameplay by making one's magic items (or usage of items) significant choices, not just offhand purchases (which accumulate into mountains).
I like even more that the playtesters are saying Resonance hasn't been an issue. That suggests the lack of spamming & lack of minutiae magic hasn't altered gameplay enough to complain.
I also like that I can pump Resonance into what were limited use items in PF1 rather than have to buy a backup.

I agree with most of what you say here, but my main qualm with resonance comes not from its limiting uses of items (which I think is good), but from the fact that it means tracking an additional thing in specific cases (wands and staves, which also have charges).

Basically, I'm worried from a complexity standpoint. And yes, they've playtested... with people who are expert tabletop gamers and know the Pathfinder system extremely well. I don't blame them, but it's easy to overlook how hard keeping track of this all might be for a player new to the system, and I think that's happened here.

Note: Both of the double-tracking problems I mentioned could be fixed relatively easily in at least a few ways. I just hope they manage to get around to this... It'd be a shame to have publish or perish pressure cause them to miss things. Nine-ish months for feedback and incorporating changes is a pretty small window.


tivadar27 wrote:
Castilliano wrote:


...

I like that Resonance veers PF2 away from that MMORPG style where superheroes stay in costume as they walk the streets.
If anything, Resonance should simplify gameplay by making one's magic items (or usage of items) significant choices, not just offhand purchases (which accumulate into mountains).
I like even more that the playtesters are saying Resonance hasn't been an issue. That suggests the lack of spamming & lack of minutiae magic hasn't altered gameplay enough to complain.
I also like that I can pump Resonance into what were limited use items in PF1 rather than have to buy a backup.

I agree with most of what you say here, but my main qualm with resonance comes not from its limiting uses of items (which I think is good), but from the fact that it means tracking an additional thing in specific cases (wands and staves, which also have charges).

Basically, I'm worried from a complexity standpoint. And yes, they've playtested... with people who are expert tabletop gamers and know the Pathfinder system extremely well. I don't blame them, but it's easy to overlook how hard keeping track of this all might be for a player new to the system, and I think that's happened here.

Note: Both of the double-tracking problems I mentioned could be fixed relatively easily in at least a few ways. I just hope they manage to get around to this... It'd be a shame to have publish or perish pressure cause them to miss things. Nine-ish months for feedback and incorporating changes is a pretty small window.

I think that is a super valid worry. Tracking your wands and resonance whenever you use an item leaves more room for error and is harder to explain to people. I am interested to see how much of a problem this is in the playtest.


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Wands - These should not be spells in a can. They should be casting foci and/or absorb metamagic rods where you spend 1 RP to apply a metamagic effect to a spell you cast with the wand. But if they absolutely have to be spells in a can for some stupid reason, they should be spontaneous casting sticks which a caster uses to trade out their spell slots for the spell in the wand. A noncaster shouldn't get any benefit from a wand.

Rods - To the extent these still exist, they should be "miscellaneous magic" effects, like the immovable rod or rod of the python or rod of wonder. Any rods which directly interact with spellcasting should be changed into wands.

Staves - I can see these having charges from their thematics and legacy, but not also having to spend resonance per-use on top of spending charges per-use, other than the resonance to attune to them. Make a staff cost X resonance to attune to at the start of the day, where X is the number of spells stored in the staff, and thereafter you can use the staff freely until the daily charges run out. A noncaster shouldn't get any benefit from a staff other than its use as a magic weapon / its passive and charge-free cantrip effects.

Potions and Elixirs - These should not cost resonance at all. If their use has to be limited, limit it based on Constitution, and recover 1 "use" per hour - basically identically to your body processing alcoholic drinks.

Scrolls - If wands are as mentioned above ideally not spells in a can, then scrolls ARE spells in a can. I'm okay with spending 1 RP to cast a spell off a scroll.

Trinkets - Ideally a trinket would be usable 1/day and not cost resonance. Just say you can't use more trinkets in a single day than your Resonance, or half your Resonance; after that, you just can't activate any more. Or can spend 1 RP per trinket activated after you "hit your limit."

Other Items (e.g. sword that shoots an air blade) - 1 RP per use OR 1 RP the first use in a day, 2 RP the second use in a day, 3 RP the third use in a day, etc.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
KingOfAnything wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Yeah I know, is just that I see uses per day as charged items with auto-recharge. What I mean by saying that I don't see the difference is in how they limit use, is still an small amount per day, when Resonance was first leaked I though it would replace both.
I'm all for getting rid of wands and having staves be the only item with charges. Staves are complex enough that it makes sense for them to keep using charges.

I would MUCH rather see wands be cheaper/less versatile versions of staffs. Get rid of the Resonance per cast cost and lean harder on the Investiture / Charges. This would mean that the cost of wands would go up slightly, but that's just fine.

Invest in a Wand or a Staff at the start of a day and it has X charges for that day and can't be invested by another for 24 hours. Additionally, allow a Caster to expend a spell of equal or higher level to the spell on the wand or staff to cast that spell.

Wands have a single spell in their kit, with X number of charges and take an action to use. Wands with Cantrips simply require investiture and do not have a number of charges, they simply cast the spell as an action.

Staffs have multiple spells in their kit, with X number of charges and take an action to use. Cantrips simply require investiture and do not consume any charges, they simply cast the spell as an action. Finally, staffs provide an additional bonus themed toward their overall toolkit. Such as a "Staff of Healing" giving a bonus to all Healing Spells or a "Staff of Fire" giving a bonus to all Fire Spells.

This way you can let Scrolls be cheap consumable spells in a can and Potions be the consumable restorative / buff in a can.


KingOfAnything wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Yeah I know, is just that I see uses per day as charged items with auto-recharge. What I mean by saying that I don't see the difference is in how they limit use, is still an small amount per day, when Resonance was first leaked I though it would replace both.
I'm all for getting rid of wands and having staves be the only item with charges. Staves are complex enough that it makes sense for them to keep using charges.

I'd be fine with scrapping the more common ones and letting the rest either stay the same or come up with different effects. Say, 10-20 unique effects?

Basically just give them the treatment they're supposed to be doing for potions. In a different direction maybe so we aren't comparing the two against each other again.

Scrolls can stay the same though I guess. Maybe buff them when used in Rituals, I don't know.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I don't think tracking will be hard for new players. I'll just give them a ramekin of glass beads. You spend a Resonance, move a bead out the ramekin. When you sleep move them all back. Done. In terms of them knowing what spends Resonance, I'd be making item cards for them anyway, because item effects are hard to keep track of in general and having a card in front of them not only reminds them what they can do but also gives them a physical representation of loot.

(I might make all my cards that I do for magic items public for the playtest. Once I've got the format it'll only take me 30s or so for each card.)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
MerlinCross wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Yeah I know, is just that I see uses per day as charged items with auto-recharge. What I mean by saying that I don't see the difference is in how they limit use, is still an small amount per day, when Resonance was first leaked I though it would replace both.
I'm all for getting rid of wands and having staves be the only item with charges. Staves are complex enough that it makes sense for them to keep using charges.

I'd be fine with scrapping the more common ones and letting the rest either stay the same or come up with different effects. Say, 10-20 unique effects?

Basically just give them the treatment they're supposed to be doing for potions. In a different direction maybe so we aren't comparing the two against each other again.

Scrolls can stay the same though I guess. Maybe buff them when used in Rituals, I don't know.

I'd be pro this. It makes wands an exciting item.


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Wultram wrote:

So outside of 1 staff in the art, there is nothing good or even decent about this blog post.

Poor formatting of items. Unnecessary complication. Uninteresting items. Poor pricing balance from the limited quantity seen.

Oh and the big one resonance. It has nothing salvagable, when I saw the shifter I thought that was as bad as it was gonna get from Paizo after firearms rules, but nope. This is based on false premises, with bad conclusions and even worse execution. People have gone through all the faults in the system and even the basic idea of it before this blog post so I will not repeat them here. But suffice to say that if resonance makes it in any way or form into the final product, it's a deal breaker.

While I wouldn't write my opinion in quite such a negative way, I'm drawn to the same conclusions. It's quite something that we as a community have, in less than a week, come up with better language than the blog used (seriously, 'operation activation action' needs to DIAF), can come up with a better way of presenting the information on magic items than the blog, and can come up with alternate mechanics which solve the (alleged!) problems (that don't in my experience actually exist) in a less disruptive way than the one proposed by the blog.

And while there's been some considerable (and occasionally heated) disagreement among ourselves, we've reached almost 1,000 posts while remaining civil(ish...) and without needing the moderators to intervene.

So go us!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Wandering Wastrel wrote:
Wultram wrote:

So outside of 1 staff in the art, there is nothing good or even decent about this blog post.

Poor formatting of items. Unnecessary complication. Uninteresting items. Poor pricing balance from the limited quantity seen.

Oh and the big one resonance. It has nothing salvagable, when I saw the shifter I thought that was as bad as it was gonna get from Paizo after firearms rules, but nope. This is based on false premises, with bad conclusions and even worse execution. People have gone through all the faults in the system and even the basic idea of it before this blog post so I will not repeat them here. But suffice to say that if resonance makes it in any way or form into the final product, it's a deal breaker.

While I wouldn't write my opinion in quite such a negative way, I'm drawn to the same conclusions. It's quite something that we as a community have, in less than a week, come up with better language than the blog used (seriously, 'operation activation action' needs to DIAF), can come up with a better way of presenting the information on magic items than the blog, and can come up with alternate mechanics which solve the (alleged!) problems (that don't in my experience actually exist) in a less disruptive way than the one proposed by the blog.

And while there's been some considerable (and occasionally heated) disagreement among ourselves, we've reached almost 1,000 posts while remaining civil(ish...) and without needing the moderators to intervene.

So go us!

Meanwhile I disagree completely, while the language could use a bit of fine tuning, I don't have a single issue reading the items even only with context from the blog. And then there has yet to be a single actual solution that's even remotely comparable to resonance to solve an issue that people are arguing doesn't exist with personal anecdotes or brushing away as "not an issue because I like how the system buckles under the issue or I prefer a style that's somewhat different from a presumably default middle ground".

I'm glad there's been good civility for the most part though, that's a good thing.

Lantern Lodge

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Trinkets and Treasures wrote:
"items have levels now"

Where have I seen that before.... its just so familiar....

Oh right!

....4th Edition D&D....


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MusicAddict wrote:
And then there has yet to be a single actual solution that's even remotely comparable to resonance

I see this as a definite positive.

MusicAddict wrote:
to solve an issue that people are arguing doesn't exist

That's an interesting take - I see the burden of proof as being on the people who are trying to demonstrate that there is an issue (due to the well-known difficulties in proving a negative). So far I've read nothing convincing.

MusicAddict wrote:
or brushing away as "not an issue because I like how the system buckles under the issue or I prefer a style that's somewhat different from a presumably default middle ground".

I think that's a straw man - unless you can find a post where somebody has genuinely said that?


Secane wrote:
Trinkets and Treasures wrote:
"items have levels now"

Where have I seen that before.... its just so familiar....

Oh right!

....4th Edition D&D....

It was in PF1 first before 4E - PF1 caster level is pretty much the same thing.

edit: oops: I was thinking of 5E. 4E is older than Pathfinder.

edit edit: No it isn't?


Secane wrote:
Trinkets and Treasures wrote:
"items have levels now"

Where have I seen that before.... its just so familiar....

Oh right!

....4th Edition D&D....

I was going to say Diablo but I am more familiar with that.


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WatersLethe wrote:
Castilliano wrote:


I like that Resonance veers PF2 away from that MMORPG style where superheroes stay in costume as they walk the streets.
Hold up. Can you elaborate on this point?

Failed analogy in retrospect, but I'll try.

(No other points being addressed if one wishes to skip.)

For me, MMORPGs break immersion (if they ever had it!) because the public spaces (often) are rife with people with active magic effects in play. I suppose I'd roll with it in a high magic setting like Eberron where magic replaces modern technology or even Xanth, where everybody has a magic trick and nature itself has abundant magical effects. Those don't suit me though.
And I don't see that for the Inner Sea (note: some of the countries outside the fringes, I might very well expect the populace to be aglow).

That in mind, I then thought in terms of how awkward it would be for a superhero to walk the streets of NYC, by which I don't mean the Marvel street heroes, but some 4-color world-class hero all ablaze with power.
And that's where the analogy fails because it's not the power level, though it could be the casualness. It's more like if Green Lantern opted not to empower his ring further because he could get a lot of other trinkets instead that do the same thing for cheaper. And then he ends up festooned with jewelry, much of it of no special meaning.

And in PF1, low-level tricks being so cheap, abundance becomes inevitable. Then everyone's Batman w/ Schrodinger's Utility Belt, which can suit the scavenger-gimmick guy, but most everyone? In most every party?
I'd like a setting without minutiae magic being omnipresent due to awkward economics, and I think Resonance helps tame that. There will still be libraries of scrolls available, but at least there will be a cost which pauses the user and there won't be perpetual spamming of mini-buffs.
The lack of spamming mini-buffs also helps w/ combat balance. If one has to balance parties w/ few running buffs fighting the same enemies as parties w/ a couple dozen running buffs, it can be difficult.


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At present, I am not a fan of the Resonance system. To be more accurate, what I really despise is the existence of a failure chance to use magic items, especially consumables. I don't think that's fair to the player who invested in getting these items, and who would be using them in desperate situations. We never had this before as a standard rule for magic items in the past, and I do not want to see it built in at all.

However, I do think a Resonance can be a fun mechanic. Using your RP to get activate more abilities or potency from your item can allow for a wide range of fun possibilities. I would suggest that you remove the failure chance, and instead have all magic items have a very minimal magical ability when used without RP, especially potions and other consumables. RP can be used to bring out the maximum magical potency from the item, or activate new abilities, but you should never feel that your item is "wasted" when you run out of RP.

I also like the idea that the magic item itself does not have a use limit, so it can now be shared between characters who have RP. I kinda agree that it would be better to shift focus towards acquiring RP-efficient items as opposed to gp-efficient, but I feel that wealth as a mechanic is not a bad thing, and it's fine for a game to have gp-efficiency integral in its mechanics.

I'm also fine with the Resonance system removing the item slot limits. We got multiple fingers, why can't I wear 10 magical rings? In old AD&D 2nd Ed, Drizzt wore his bracers of speed as anklets. Great story idea, illegal in the game. But with Resonance, we could possible allow that! This also allows non-humanoid creatures more freedom in what magical items they can equip.

To sum up, I'll be happy with Resonance based on 2 things:
1) Remove failure chance when out of RP, replace with very minimal abilities. Magic items should never feel wasted.
2) A wide variety of benefits of spending Resonance Points that feel fun and wonderful.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Wandering Wastrel wrote:
MusicAddict wrote:
And then there has yet to be a single actual solution that's even remotely comparable to resonance

I see this as a definite positive.

MusicAddict wrote:
to solve an issue that people are arguing doesn't exist

That's an interesting take - I see the burden of proof as being on the people who are trying to demonstrate that there is an issue (due to the well-known difficulties in proving a negative). So far I've read nothing convincing.

MusicAddict wrote:
or brushing away as "not an issue because I like how the system buckles under the issue or I prefer a style that's somewhat different from a presumably default middle ground".
I think that's a straw man - unless you can find a post where somebody has genuinely said that?

I was on mobile and a bit TOO impassioned when I typed that, but it's clear I've exaggerated that side of the discussion. To put it simply and clearly, it's impossible to talk about this "issue" in anything other than anecdotal ways for BOTH sides of the argument, but I've experienced the "issue" on both sides of the table.

It's kinda difficult to talk about too, because one side sees the effects of consumable/magic item design that lead to the CLW wand spam and other similar, but less obvious item situations doesn't see it as an issue and the other side does ( as an aside I feel jingasa of the fortunate soldier was another example that works as well, as it was extremely affordable, gives a useful bonus that had few conflicts with other items, and was extremely cheap for the disposable effects before it got nerfed).

To refer to it in a way that doesn't blindly call it an issue is that the pricing and lack of restriction forced prices of consumables up too high for appropriate level characters, but wealth by level leads to these items being extremely cheap after a certain point that it warps the balance of the game's expectations, whether that's an issue for you or not. The game should inherently be able to support a gameplay style where resource and health attrition are something to pay at least some attention to. It shouldn't be absolutely key, but attrition and careful play should be valid, whereas when players take advantage of the rules in PF1, attrition gameplay vanishes near completely, when the default expectations of the game design don't account for that, when it comes to suggested encounter design in the rule books, nor do all monsters or traps account for that expectation. Some monsters are minor threats, even for their CR, and not every fight should be a fight for your life (though a couple of creepy tooth fairies could make a run for it), but in my experience get turned into inconsequential road bump.

On top of that, a relatively small amount of party budget can cover most of the party's sustainability as well if not better than your average cleric, paladin, or other character with a portion of resources spent on healing effectiveness, which personally REALLY rubs me the wrong way, 1/28th of a party's budget ( 1500 GP or 2 wands of CLW as soon as 5th level) shouldn't be able to outheal a cleric in the HP game on a bad day, but it clearly can.


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@MusicAddict - thanks for that clear explanation. I don't happen to agree with it, but I do see where you're coming from.

In my opinion though, if CLW wands are a real issue then the solution is to address that directly - and not to introduce a new mechanic that calls for further resource tracking. I think my earlier suggestion of simply changing wands so that they don't mimic spell effects does this. It makes scrolls more useful, and makes wands more magical.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ya know, it is disappointing to see that lot of people are assuming bad faith in other posters ._. Like, there is lot of personal insults or assuming others are personally insulting them.

Anyway, I would like to note (and this applies to EVERYONE): Just because you haven't met players that do or complain about certain thing doesn't mean they don't exist, it doesn't mean they are rare and it doesn't' mean they are common. I don't think there is any way to measure what is amount of players who prefer one thing when compared to amount of players who prefer the opposite thing and don't pretend there is.

Like for example, my parties tend to complete dungeons in single adventuring day without resting(note: they have done this at levels before they can ever afford cure light wound wands and even in parties without dedicated healers), they tend to solve situations without combat whenever possible and they are reasonably competent without being too optimized by design. However, that doesn't change it that there are lot of folks complaining about 15 minute adventuring days or even murderhobo pcs :P Now are murderhobo pcs more common than diplomatic pcs? No clue and I don't think there is any way to prove it.

I can note that lot of players who try Pathfinder after 5 or Apocalypse or some other system get baffled by stuff like economy not making common sense or characters looking like christmas trees when you really think what they look like. Lot of players want to get immersed into rpgs and their immersion breaks when they realize something about simulation makes no sense.

Now are those people more common than regular pathfinder players? No clue. However, those people aren't only people who are annoyed by christmas trees or such, if they were then you wouldn't see those arguments told constantly by folks on this forum. So while it might not be problem for you, it is problem for someone else and I think it might be polite to acknowledge that it exists instead of "Its not big deal because it wasn't big deal to me"

(for record, my own party's opinion regarding Christmas trees is to make joke about them, they find it ridiculous but don't really care, they are more in opinion that certain magic slots such as gloves or eye slots are super useless due to items for those slots being really situational. And before someone corrects them here, I'd rather not have debate about party's opinion on whether magic gloves are useless or not based on there being few useful ones considering they themselves aren't posting here on it :P)


Themetricsystem wrote:
Wandering Wastrel wrote:

Make Wands Magical Again.

Don't have wands that simply replicate spell effects. Abolish the CLW wand, the Mage Armour wand. That's what scrolls are for! Make wands do weird, wonderful, amazing things. Make finding a wand into a genuine bit of treasure.

THAT is something I could get behind.

I am 110% on board with this idea, even if it may be a bit late to change things for the Playtest. I would LOVE to see Paizo give a playest "round" a shot whereby Wands are turned into something ENTIRELY different, something closer to what the Meta-Magic Rods are.

The fantasy trope of spellcasters waving wands at each other shows them using ANY spell they know with the wand as a focus, with some wands being more powerful or unique. I can't recall ANY stories that didn't rely on the Crunch of the 3.0+ Edition Rules as a backdrop that featured a wand that works as they presently do, a reusable single-spell stick.

Wand being something vaguely akin to meta magic rods then. They don’t cast spells per set but modify the spells you cast.

Liberty's Edge

We need some way to transfer Resonance points between characters

So that the party can pool Resonance like they do gold

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

That doesn't really solve the issue of someone trying to drink a potion and it's just so much water and now they can't use magic items at all.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
That doesn't really solve the issue of someone trying to drink a potion and it's just so much water and now they can't use magic items at all.

The downed Healer corner-case isn't as bad as assumed. They still get their flat 50% roll to overspend, and I'm certain it won't get harder if they fail the roll, so usually it will just be a matter of wasting a few of the lowest-level potions until one sticks; or if you've got a wand you can use your own RP to heal them with that.

At which point the "adventuring day" will be done until the party recovers RP, just like it used to be in 1st & 2nd edition when the cleric ran out of spells.
All that will really change is that we'll save the cheap potions and wands for end-of-day topping off of our HP before rest so that we don't "waste" our unspent RP.

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