Trinkets and Treasures

Monday, June 25, 2018

Wayfinder. Bag of holding. Ring of the ram. Staff of power. Holy avenger.

The magic items you find during your adventures become a part of your story and let you do things beyond the techniques you've mastered and the spells you know. So how do these essentials of the game work in the Pathfinder Playtest?

Magic items are used in three major ways: by investing them, by activating them, or automatically. Invested items are ones you wear that you have to prepare as you don them, after which they work continuously. Activating items follows a system similar to that used for spells. Just as casting a spell requires you to spend actions to supply the somatic, verbal, and material components of the spell, activated items require you to use the Command Activation, Focus Activation, or Operate Activation action, or a combination of multiple actions. A potion requires you to spend an Operate Activation action to drink it. A necklace of fireballs requires you to spend 2 Operate Activation actions to unbind a bead and throw it. Activating a luck blade to reroll an attack just takes a mental nudge with a Focus Activation reaction (though you get to do that only once per day). Automatic activation happens with a small category of items that give their benefit whenever they're used for their normal purpose. A prime example is a sword with the frost property rune, which is always coated with frost and needs only hit a foe to deal extra cold damage.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Resonance

Activating or investing an item costs 1 Resonance Point (RP). You might have heard a bit about this on the Glass Cannon podcast! Resonance is a new resource all characters have that can be used to activate items. Your innate magic item resonance is represented by a number of Resonance Points equal to your level plus your Charisma modifier. This ties back to the Pathfinder First Edition concept of Charisma as the main ability score tied to innate magic, as seen in the Use Magic Device skill and the fact that Charisma is used for spell-like abilities, oracles, sorcerers, and so forth. However, in Pathfinder Second Edition, true scholars of itemcraft *cough*alchemists*cough* might get to use their Intelligence instead.

The idea of resonance stems from the Pathfinder First Edition occultist, who was able to tap into the magical potential of items, and even before that to the idea of resonance between creatures and various magic items, as seen with the resonant powers of wayfinders. We've expanded that concept to apply to everyone. In practical terms, you're really unlikely to run out of Resonance Points unless you're using an absurd number of items, and you're at the greatest risk at low levels. You still have a chance even if your pool is empty, though. You can overspend Resonance Points! If you're at 0 RP, you can attempt to activate or invest an item anyway. You need to attempt a flat check (a d20 roll with no modifiers) against a DC equal to 10 + the number of points you've overspent today. So the first item has a 50% chance of working, and it gets more risky from there.

We expect Resonance Points to be a contentious topic, and we're really curious to see how it plays at your tables. It's one of the more experimental changes to the game, and the playtest process gives us a chance to see it in the wild before committing to it. Here are the advantages we see from a design perspective:

  1. Using items is clear and consistent. Spend the required actions and 1 RP, and you activate or invest your item. If someone else wants to use the same item, you can remove it and let them put it on and invest it themselves.
  2. You have less to track. We get to remove some of the sub-pools that individual items have (such as "10 rounds per day which need not be consecutive" or "5 charges") because we know you have an overall limited resource. There are still some items that can't be used without limit, but they get to be special exceptions rather than being common out of necessity.
  3. It puts the focus on the strongest items. Because you can't activate items indefinitely, your best bet is to use the most RP-efficient item, not the most gp-efficient item. You want a high-level healing wand because you get more healing for your Resonance Point rather than getting a bunch of low-level wands because they're cheap.
  4. Investiture limits what you can wear. That means we don't need to rely heavily on an item slot system, creating more flexibility in what kind of worn items are useful. You'll read more about this on the blog on Friday, when we talk about removing the magic item Christmas tree!

Will those benefits be compelling? Will people prefer this system over the Pathfinder First Edition system? We look forward to finding out!

Want to look at an item to see how this works in practice?

Cloak of Elvenkind Item 10+

Illusion, Invested, Magical

Method of Use worn, cloak; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Focus Activation, [[A]] Operate Activation


This cloak is deep green with a voluminous hood, and is embroidered with gold trim and symbols of significance to the elves. The cloak allows you to cast the ghost sound cantrip as an innate arcane spell. When you draw the hood up over your head (an Interact action), the cloak transforms to match the environment around you and muffles your sounds, giving you an item bonus to Stealth checks. If you activate the cloak, you pull the hood up and are affected by invisibility for 1 minute or until you pull the hood back down, whichever comes first.

Type standard; Level 10; Price 1,000 gp

The cloak grants a +3 bonus.

Type greater; Level 18; Price 24,000 gp

The cloak grants a +5 bonus, and invisibility is 4th level. If you're also wearing greater boots of elvenkind, the greater cloak of elvenkind allows you to Sneak in forest environments even when creatures are currently observing you.

Here's a fairly complex item to show multiple parts of the system at once. The cloak of elvenkind is level 10, and there's also a greater cloak of elvenkind with an item level of 18. In case you missed it in the crafting blog, items have levels now, which indicate the point at which you can craft them (as well as being handy for the GM when making treasure hoards). Method of use indicates that this item is worn and that it's a cloak. A few items have this two-part listing because they're hard to wear multiples of. Multiple cloaks, multiple boots... not practical. Multiple rings or amulets? No problem.

This item is both invested (note the invested trait) and activated (as you can see by the activation entry). Investing the cloak lets you cast ghost sound. You get this benefit as long as the cloak is invested, which means you can cast the spell whenever you want without activating the cloak and therefore without spending more Resonance Points. You can also get an item bonus to Stealth checks from the cloak (+3 or +5 for a greater cloak). Finally, you can activate the cloak as you raise the hood, spending 1 Resonance Point to turn invisible! Certainly not every item has as much going on as a cloak of elvenkind, but several classic items seemed like they needed a little extra special treatment! What do you think? Too much?

How about something simpler?

Floating Shield Item 13

Magical

Price 2,800 gp

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


This master-quality light wooden shield (Hardness 6) protects you without requiring you to spend actions each round. When you activate this shield, you can release it from your grip as a part of that action. The shield floats in the air next to you, granting you its bonus automatically, as if you Raised the Shield. Because you're not wielding the shield, you can't use reactions such as Shield Block with the shield.

After 1 minute, the shield drops to the ground, ending its floating effect. While the shield is adjacent to you, you can grasp it with an Interact action, ending its floating effect.

You can hold this and use it just like any other shield. Activating it lets you free up a hand to cause the shield to float, where it protects you without you spending an action! While the floating shield offers far less Hardness than many magic shields of a similar level (some have Hardness up to 18!), it's not meant for Shield Block, and its abilities allow you to use it even with a character who needs both hands for other things.

Now let's look at two special types of items: one revamped classic and one brand-new category!

Staves

We went through several different iterations of staves. They needed to remain a powerful tool for spellcasters, but we also wanted them to appear earlier in the game so you didn't have to wait for most staves to appear at higher levels. Let's see the staff of healing!

Staff of Healing Item 3+

Invested, Magical, Necromancy, Staff

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk 1

Activation Cast a Spell (1 RP)


Made of smooth white wood, this staff is capped at each end with a golden cross adorned with a multitude of ruby cabochons. A staff of healing adds an item bonus to the Hit Points you restore any time you cast the heal spell using your own spell slots, using charges from the staff, or from channel energy.

Type minor; Level 3; Price 60 gp; Maximum Charges 3

The item bonus to heal spells is +1.

  • stabilize (cantrip)
  • heal (level 1)

I've included only the level 3 minor staff of healing here. There are also versions at levels 7, 11, and 15, and they add higher-level heal spells, plus restoration, remove disease, restore senses, and more! A staff is tied to you, which means you have to invest it, unlike most held items. This investiture has two extra benefits. First off, it links the staff to you, preventing anyone else from investing the staff for 24 hours. More importantly, it restores charges to the staff equal to the highest level of spell you can cast. You don't have to expend any spells to do this; it's all part of using your Resonance Points. You'll notice this also means that if you find one of these as a 1st-level character, it will take you longer to recharge it than if you're a higher-level spellcaster. You also get the item bonus to healing as long as you hold the invested staff.

Now how do you cast these spells? Well, you activate the staff as part of casting one of the spells in it (spending 1 RP as usual). Then you have two options: You can either expend charges from the staff equal to the spell's level (1 charge for heal here) or expend one of your own spells of that level or higher. Yeah, your staff essentially lets you spontaneously cast the spells in it!

Trinkets

How about something completely different? One thing we wanted to add was a type of item that was like scrolls for martial characters. Spellcasters use scrolls and everyone uses potions, but how about something special that relies on nonmagical skills? Trinkets were the answer! Our first example was designed specifically for fighters.

Fear Gem Item 4

Consumable, Enchantment, Fear, Magical, Mental, Trinket

Price 11 gp

Method of Use affixed, weapon; Bulk

Activation [[F]] Focus Activation; Trigger You use Intimidating Strike, but haven't rolled for the attack yet.


Dark smoke seems to writhe within this obsidian gem. When you activate the gem, if your Intimidating Strike hits, the target is frightened 2 and flat-footed against your attacks until the end of your next turn. If the attack roll is a critical success, the target is flat-footed against your attacks for 1 minute.

Trinkets all have the consumable trait, meaning they're used up after being activated once. They have the "affixed" method of use, and as this one indicates, it has to be affixed to a weapon. You can activate it with a Focus Activation as a free action when you use the Intimidating Strike action from the fighter feat of the same name. This makes the Intimidating Strike more severe, increasing its effect to frightened 2 instead of frightened 1 and making it especially strong on a critical success.

Now how about a trinket that's less specific?

Vanishing Coin Item 9

Consumable, Illusion, Magical, Trinket

Price 85 gp

Method of Use affixed, armor; Bulk

Activation [[F]] Focus Activation; Trigger You attempt a Stealth check for initiative, but haven't rolled yet.

Requirements You are a master in Stealth.


This copper coin dangles from a leather strip strung through a hole drilled into the coin's center. It's usually tied just below the throat on a suit of armor. Until it is activated, the coin becomes invisible for a few seconds every few minutes, but always at random intervals. When you activate the coin, you gain the benefits of a 2nd-level invisibility spell until the end of your next turn.

Anyone with master proficiency in Stealth can use this trinket by affixing it to her armor. She can turn invisible by activating the coin when she rolls a Stealth check for initiative. Pretty useful in the first round of a fight!

Well, there's a lot to say about magic items, and we'll have more to say on Friday. For now, I'm going to leave you with a short list of some of the new items appearing in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook in addition to the classics.

  • Anklets of alacrity
  • Feather step stone
  • Forge warden
  • Grim trophy
  • Handwraps of mighty fists
  • Oil of weightlessness
  • Persona mask
  • Potency crystal
  • Runestone
  • Spell duelist's wand
  • Third eye
  • Virtuoso's instrument

Tell us what sorts of items you'd like to see in the final rulebook!

Logan Bonner
Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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WatersLethe wrote:
willuwontu wrote:


To me the issue with clw, being used at all levels is it seems kind of silly for high level characters with access to more powerful healing spells, use the most frugal things ever. It'd be like a millionaire not tipping at a restaurant to save money.

In pf1 with the way the magic item economy was it made sense because it was a ridiculous price for such things, but in pf2 I'm hoping it's more reasonably priced so that it's viable. As for an adequate reason, your using more advanced healing services, thus it costs more money.

I'm not saying it should be a significant portion of wbl, I'm saying using clw from 1-20 kinda ruins the setting.

Wouldn't it be more like a millionaire tipping the same amount they tipped when they were a thousandaire? Even real life millionaire's don't always tip 100%. I get what you're saying, but it rubs me the wrong way when everything has to level up with you.

It never made sense to me in MMOs that you had to buy new food and potions when you get to a new zone because the old ones don't cut it anymore. I think 1 HP should be 1 HP regardless of level, and that it's okay that it always costs the same. You have to spend more in total because you have higher max HP, and the price to patch up as a percentage of your total wealth falls.

If getting adequate healing services just keeps going up in price, the players are going to start feeling ripped off and that's when they start doing things like hiring people to be resonance batteries.

It's more like the millionaire instead of getting burgers at a restaurant (low level hp in terms of price), goes out and has a candlelight dinner at a fancy restaurant (high level hp in terms of price), the fancy restaurant also charges more for the better place setting, the mood in the room, their fancy waitstaff and what not, and that's factored into the price as well.

So while you're tipping 20% in both cases (or 15% the point is the same %), because the fancy restaurant adds in the cost of the fancy setting (higher caster level and spell level) you end up paying more per amount of food (hp).


I could see a common houserule being, that healing out of combat costs 0 RP and has a set gold per HP price, while in combat would still cost RP and varied gold.

The issue with this is it encourages players to not heal in combat and is more likely to lead to party wipes due to that.


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willuwontu wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
willuwontu wrote:


To me the issue with clw, being used at all levels is it seems kind of silly for high level characters with access to more powerful healing spells, use the most frugal things ever. It'd be like a millionaire not tipping at a restaurant to save money.

In pf1 with the way the magic item economy was it made sense because it was a ridiculous price for such things, but in pf2 I'm hoping it's more reasonably priced so that it's viable. As for an adequate reason, your using more advanced healing services, thus it costs more money.

I'm not saying it should be a significant portion of wbl, I'm saying using clw from 1-20 kinda ruins the setting.

Wouldn't it be more like a millionaire tipping the same amount they tipped when they were a thousandaire? Even real life millionaire's don't always tip 100%. I get what you're saying, but it rubs me the wrong way when everything has to level up with you.

It never made sense to me in MMOs that you had to buy new food and potions when you get to a new zone because the old ones don't cut it anymore. I think 1 HP should be 1 HP regardless of level, and that it's okay that it always costs the same. You have to spend more in total because you have higher max HP, and the price to patch up as a percentage of your total wealth falls.

If getting adequate healing services just keeps going up in price, the players are going to start feeling ripped off and that's when they start doing things like hiring people to be resonance batteries.

It's more like the millionaire instead of getting burgers at a restaurant (low level hp in terms of price), goes out and has a candlelight dinner at a fancy restaurant (high level hp in terms of price), the fancy restaurant also charges more for the better place setting, the mood in the room, their fancy waitstaff and what not, and that's factored into the price as well.

So while you're tipping 20% in both cases (or 15% the point is the same %), because the fancy restaurant...

Yeah but, to follow the analogy: if the millionaire is alright with eating a ton of burgers instead of the candlelit dinner...is he wrong?

As WaterLethe said, 1 HP is always 1 HP. Why does the price of 1 HP worth of healing increase by level? Why is it necessary that it do so? All you care about is the ammount healed. Therefore you'll got for the cheapest option. Sure, it'll take more time, but the savings make it worth it.

If higher level healing potions/wands had extra riders beyond just healing more HP, then it'd be like your analogy. As it is, if you don't care about ambiance, all the fancy restaurant is doing is giving you a bigger burger. But if I can get the same (or more) ammount of burger by going to another place and eating more (but smaller) burgers for cheaper, then I'll do it. Because I can use the money I save on other stuff. Like a hot dog.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

This restaurant analogy breaks down a bit considering we don't go from needing 2000 calories a day to 20,000 calories a day over our lifetimes.


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TheFinish wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
willuwontu wrote:


To me the issue with clw, being used at all levels is it seems kind of silly for high level characters with access to more powerful healing spells, use the most frugal things ever. It'd be like a millionaire not tipping at a restaurant to save money.

In pf1 with the way the magic item economy was it made sense because it was a ridiculous price for such things, but in pf2 I'm hoping it's more reasonably priced so that it's viable. As for an adequate reason, your using more advanced healing services, thus it costs more money.

I'm not saying it should be a significant portion of wbl, I'm saying using clw from 1-20 kinda ruins the setting.

Wouldn't it be more like a millionaire tipping the same amount they tipped when they were a thousandaire? Even real life millionaire's don't always tip 100%. I get what you're saying, but it rubs me the wrong way when everything has to level up with you.

It never made sense to me in MMOs that you had to buy new food and potions when you get to a new zone because the old ones don't cut it anymore. I think 1 HP should be 1 HP regardless of level, and that it's okay that it always costs the same. You have to spend more in total because you have higher max HP, and the price to patch up as a percentage of your total wealth falls.

If getting adequate healing services just keeps going up in price, the players are going to start feeling ripped off and that's when they start doing things like hiring people to be resonance batteries.

It's more like the millionaire instead of getting burgers at a restaurant (low level hp in terms of price), goes out and has a candlelight dinner at a fancy restaurant (high level hp in terms of price), the fancy restaurant also charges more for the better place setting, the mood in the room, their fancy waitstaff and what not, and that's factored into the price as well.

So while you're tipping 20% in both cases (or 15% the point is the same %),

...

That first part is where resonance steps in, sure he can order a million burgers (clw), but he can only eat so much before he becomes full (runs out of resonance), and he might not be satisfied (not full hp), whereas a couple lobsters, (heal spell, csw, etc) he might have room for and be satisfied with (full hp).


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Honestly, I think managing your resources to make that happen is a lot more fun. It also makes the healing you get as a cleric more useful and cool since you don't get it for free after every fight.
I see comments like this and I can't help but think that my fun is VASTLY different from the people that say this. It's like people that have fun tracking each and every material component and want to do away with a component pouch because it makes the tracking of them meaningless and therefore less fun... If that does it for them, great, but for me I'm fine with the status quo...
It's not the tracking of resources that is fun, it is the balancing of resources to achieve your goals. It's the principle behind any of the popular resource-based strategy games.
Yeah, I'm actually a huge advocate of reducing fiddly resource tracking. I just also think that making those small number of resources you do track actually meaningful is important and interesting.

IMO, Resonance IS one of those "fiddly resource tracking" that isn't meaningful... IMO, it's right up there with tracking rations, water, ammo and material components. I know someone out there really loves tracking them but I'm more than happy to skip over those, IMO, needless paperwork/accounting actions and get on with the game. It's not Accountants and Actuaries the Game after all.

KingOfAnything: “you say potato; I say pot-ah-to.” Renaming resource tracking to resource balancing is just a shifting of optics as they are the same thing. What is interesting in a video game like civilization isn't in a tabletop RPG... I don't want to die of dysentery before the game starts. :P [insert oregon trail image here]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

I see it is time that I go back to disagreeing with graystone. It was inevitable really. I don't think you necessarily have to look at resonance in that way. I don't think you have to think of it so much as a magical energy pool. I'm looking at it as more of a tolerance rating.

Hmm that would be an interesting way to do it. It starts giving penalties when you get over your resonance. Magic tolerance real low guys i'm about to pop!

I actually think you DO have to look at it that way. The blog makes that pretty clear [we're using Cha because innate magic uses Cha!!!!!!!!!]. Activating a potion and giving it to your buddy is VERY hard to fluff as YOUR tolerance to items...

Secondly, tolerance just gives me a 'burn' vib and I'm getting kineticist flashbacks. :P


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Finally remembered where I have seen something like this before: Earthdawn. Just an aside, carry on.

Shadow Lodge

Unicore wrote:
There really isn't stat dumping in the new attribute system and a character should be investing in charisma because they want their character to be socially competent, not to be able to drink one more potion a day.

See, this makes a lot of sense. I mean, unless we're going for a frat boy motif, I guess, but even their drinking is based off Con...


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willuwontu wrote:
That first part is where resonance steps in, sure he can order a million burgers (clw), but he can only eat so much before he becomes full (runs out of resonance), and he might not be satisfied (not full hp), whereas a couple lobsters, (heal spell, csw, etc) he might have room for and be satisfied with (full hp).

I know that's where resonance steps in, my question is: why is it necessary? Why is it wrong for the millionaire to eat three hundred big macs instead of a couple of big ol' fancy burgers?

Because the most obvious answer is that he's using way less resources to eat the three hundred big macs. But he's only doing that because, comparatively, the big ol' fancy burgers aren't worth the price.

The best solution here, going back from the analogy, is to rework the mechanics and prices behind the higher level consumables so that they are worth the price. Not simply gating you from abusing low level consumables with a mechanic that also prevents you from using too many magic items at once.

That and also, this system penalizes low level characters much more than it does high level ones (which Mark is on record saying very rarely, if ever, run out of resonance.) Honestly in what game is it alright for your first level Dwarf PC with 8 charisma to have a 50% chance to drink a potion and have it affect them? It's just bad design.

Shadow Lodge

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Something that has been bugging me for a while are the examples of 'resonance' for the first edition.

They are nothing like this Resonance.

Wayfinder + Ioun Stone had nothing to do with a person's personal magical aura. It was how the magic of the item interacted with the other item.

Occultist is a bit closer, but still not the same thing. First off his implements could be completely mundane, non-magical items. Second, his invested mental focus didn't allow him to use the item. It let him use abilities he had. The items didn't have the abilities. At all.

Liberty's Edge

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I really get the feeling like most of these people complaining about having to pay resonance for Potions and Consumables simply DONT understand that it is problematic for game balance and likely assume that they should have the opportunity to fully buff up before every battle, activate every Magic Item, and use every x/Day Use Abilities before even rolling initiative. The same people who throw a fit if they cant heal up 100% after every fight, they assume if they cant steam through the encounters effortlessly then something is wrong with the math. If your PCs can just consume endless magic buffs and healing then there is no challenge.

Assuming that Potions and Consumables shouldn't count towards your Characters APL calculation (Part and parcel of the PC Statistics just like any Class Ability or Racial Bonus) is so backwards it doesn't make sense. If they remove the Resonance System from these type of items for the Core Rules, I would be shocked if they didn't triple the cost and and Crafting Time required.

These kind of items bloat the APL of the Party WAYYY in excess of the game intent, Resonance is a GREAT way to ensure PCs aren't abusing every-single-stackable-effect possible. In many ways these kinds of effects have MUCH greater impact on the Combat that ANY other single RP Invested Item such as a +3 Warhammer or even that Cloak of Elvenkind EVER would.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Themetricsystem wrote:

I really get the feeling like most of these people complaining about having to pay resonance for Potions and Consumables simply DONT understand that it is problematic for game balance and likely assume that they should have the opportunity to fully buff up before every battle, activate every Magic Item, and use every x/Day Use Abilities before even rolling initiative. The same people who throw a fit if they cant heal up 100% after every fight, they assume if they cant steam through the encounters effortlessly then something is wrong with the math. If your PCs can just consume endless magic buffs and healing then there is no challenge.

Assuming that Potions and Consumables shouldn't count towards your Characters APL calculation (Part and parcel of the PC Statistics just like any Class Ability or Racial Bonus) is so backwards it doesn't make sense. If they remove the Resonance System from these type of items for the Core Rules, I would be shocked if they didn't triple the cost and and Crafting Time required.

These kind of items bloat the APL of the Party WAYYY in excess of the game intent, Resonance is a GREAT way to ensure PCs aren't abusing every-single-stackable-effect possible. In many ways these kinds of effects have MUCH greater impact on the Combat that ANY other single RP Invested Item such as a +3 Warhammer or even that Cloak of Elvenkind EVER would.

You're putting a lot of words in a lot of people's mouths.

First of all, it's quite likely PF2e will let you heal up 100% between combats one way or another.

Second, is shotgunning potion after potion a typical occurrence in your experience? I don't see it much. Low level potions have duration in rounds, so chugging one after another means the first one starts wearing off before combat even starts. Then if there's a delay, say the enemy starts talking for a minute, those buffs are going to be a total waste.

Shadow Lodge

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Themetricsystem wrote:
I really get the feeling like most of these people complaining about having to pay resonance for Potions and Consumables simply DONT understand that it is problematic for game balance and likely assume that they should have the opportunity to fully buff up before every battle, activate every Magic Item, and use every x/Day Use Abilities before even rolling initiative. The same people who throw a fit if they cant heal up 100% after every fight, they assume if they cant steam through the encounters effortlessly then something is wrong with the math. If your PCs can just consume endless magic buffs and healing then there is no challenge.

To give some examples of my experiences the only times I can recall in the twelve years I've been gaming that my party has ever buffed up before a fight we always knew the fight was there. Black dragon they'd escaped before? Buff and go after it. Cultists dancing around in a graveyard making skeletons? Buff and go in.

We do heal a lot though, especially in what amounts to dungeons. The latest example was a cultist's temple/workshop a mile under the city. They used scythes and one of our party members had already died during the fighting. We did out best to stay near full before that happened. Besides Bless and Prayer we didn't have any buffs either.

So, no, I don't 'assume' we should be able to buff up or heal to full after every fight. I expect that, if we need too, we can. This system prevents playing smart and realistically be shoving an unneeded system down our throats. It prevents using something like an Air Bubble potion in the water portion of a dungeon because if could get you killed later on.

When you MUST save your spare Resonance for HEALING quickly because if you don't you could DIE then there is something wrong.

Dark Archive

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My biggest problem with Resonance as a solution to the 'CLW' supposed issue is that it is an overly complex solution, that affects other parts of the game when there's a simpler, cleaner, standard economics way of addressing the issue.

People stick with Wand of CLW because value per HP it is the best value. This means, the real world solution would be for the cost of the higher level cure wands to reduce in price to where they are adding a similar value per HP. Then people would pick this item more frequently because if is better during a fight when needed (conserves actions needed to keep the person alive since it is healing more with a single action) and out of combat it simply lasts longer. But the cost discrepency is so vast that it make it strictly uneconomical to use other wands. Of course no one is going to pay 4500gp for on average 600hp worth of healing when they could instead pay 1650hp for that same price from a wand of CLW. The difference in the amount of healing that much gold gets them is simply staggering. So instead, maybe it would be better to reconsider how much wealth per level should be and bring down the values of some of those other options so that it actually makes economical sense to choose them rather than simply putting some other complex system in the way that potentially breaks other things.

I can see something like a slimmer version of resonance being added simply for limiting the number of permanent magic items one can be invested in or attuned to in place of the slot system. That is cool.

They also say that this system is there to help reduce the different bits of tracking to be done but that Staff of healing still has charges to be managed. It seems like those wands still have charges to be considered before they run out. Some items still have X/day uses like the Luck blade... so are we really getting rid of tracking or are we just adding one more pool to the list?

In which case the only real goal it is accomplishing decently is removing item slots.


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TheFinish wrote:

I know that's where resonance steps in, my question is: why is it necessary? Why is it wrong for the millionaire to eat three hundred big macs instead of a couple of big ol' fancy burgers?

Because the most obvious answer is that he's using way less resources to eat the three hundred big macs. But he's only doing that because, comparatively, the big ol' fancy burgers aren't worth the price.

The best solution here, going back from the analogy, is to rework the mechanics and prices behind the higher level consumables so that they are worth the price. Not simply gating you from abusing low level consumables with a mechanic that also prevents you from using too many magic items at once.

That and also, this system penalizes low level characters much more than it does high level ones (which Mark is on record saying very rarely, if ever, run out of resonance.) Honestly in what game is it alright for your first level Dwarf PC with 8 charisma to have a 50% chance to drink a potion and have it affect them? It's just bad design.

The thing is again, I'm really not sure it's possible to rework the economics so that it's remotely feasible. It's slightly better now that healing spells scale up by 2d8 per level, but even then...

Let's look at the prices we know of:
Moderate, Level 5, 20 gp: 3d8+8
Greater, Level 8, 60 gp: 5d8+12
Major, Level 12, 250 gp: 7d8+20
True, Level 18, 1200 gp: 9d8+30

Even in this case, we can't remotely manage it, because reducing consumables to be price-comparable would distort the whole economy around them. You'd have to have a Major potion at around 80 gp (True is a step too high, but leaving that for later) to be remotely price-comparable, and even that would make it incredibly easy to access at lower levels for health economy.

---

Part of the other reason is so that Fighters and other martial characters can't just coast on healing forever instead of burning resources like everyone else, but I'm not sure what a decent solution to that is, either. Adding Stamina into the mix (via spell points?) might help, but that'd be a big exception either way.

They've probably reworked potions in general so that most of the "spam every low-level potion" buff strategies are no longer the go-tos, but I'm thinking it might just be simpler to rework wands completely instead.

Liberty's Edge

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Perhaps you guys misunderstood my meaning, not enough coffee I suppose.

My point here is that players should NEVER be able to bloat their APL beyond reason with consumables WITHOUT having any downsides. If Consumables are going to be as inexpensive as they seem, they NEED to put a limit on how many you can use in conjunction with the rest of your magic equipment, PERIOD.

The whole point of the system is to give players interesting choices to make. Letting Players use an unlimited (Cash/Alchemist Party member limited) number of Magical Items that grant effects JUST as powerful (If not moreso) than those you need to spend Resonance on is just silly.


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Themetricsystem wrote:

Perhaps you guys misunderstood my meaning, not enough coffee I suppose.

My point here is that players should NEVER be able to bloat their APL beyond reason with consumables WITHOUT having any downsides. If Consumables are going to be as inexpensive as they seem, they NEED to put a limit on how many you can use in conjunction with the rest of your magic equipment, PERIOD.

The whole point of the system is to give players interesting choices to make. Letting Players use an unlimited (Cash/Alchemist Party member limited) number of Magical Items that grant effects JUST as powerful (If not moreso) than those you need to spend Resonance on is just silly.

Which misses the othersides point it's not 'wands shouldn't cost resonance' it's 'nothing should cost resonance, it's an anti-fun system'


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Consumables should be sufficiently cheap that players don't need to meaningfully delay progress towards that magic sword or ring or armor in order to afford healing potions and the like.

But unless we want "full HP before every fight" we're going to need some other limit on consumables. So resonance might need tweaking, but I'm wholeheartedly for the idea.

Liberty's Edge

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Dragonborn3 wrote:


When you MUST save your spare Resonance for HEALING quickly because if you don't you could DIE then there is something wrong.

I coudn't disagree more, a PC who isn't willing to reserve some of their personal equipment and "potential" for healing themselves should they get hurt (At least in a party without a dedicated Healer) SHOULD be punished.

If a PC can go in loaded to the gills having spent EVERY Copper piece they own on magic equipment to buff themselves, they would be remiss not to reserve some of that potential for healing. This is EXACTLY the kind of character who thrives in a 15 minute Day, they blow all their APL on powerful x/day effects and just wait until they can exploit them again.

I just don't understand why people think magical healing should be cheap, free, or easy.


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Cyouni wrote:

The thing is again, I'm really not sure it's possible to rework the economics so that it's remotely feasible. It's slightly better now that healing spells scale up by 2d8 per level, but even then...

Let's look at the prices we know of:
Moderate, Level 5, 20 gp: 3d8+8
Greater, Level 8, 60 gp: 5d8+12
Major, Level 12, 250 gp: 7d8+20
True, Level 18, 1200 gp: 9d8+30

Even in this case, we can't remotely manage it, because reducing consumables to be price-comparable would distort the whole economy around them. You'd have to have a Major potion at around 80 gp (True is a step too high, but leaving that for later) to be remotely price-comparable, and even that would make it incredibly easy to access at lower levels for health economy.

---

Part of the other reason is so that Fighters and other martial characters can't just coast on healing forever instead of burning resources like everyone else, but I'm not sure what a decent solution to that is, either. Adding Stamina into the mix (via spell points?) might help, but that'd be a big exception either way.

They've probably reworked potions in general so that most of the "spam every low-level potion" buff strategies are no longer the go-tos, but I'm thinking it might just be simpler to rework wands completely instead.

I've seen the potion prices, and commented on them. Mark said the hilarious price discrepancy between Major and True, and the conclusions you get from that (which is that it's much better to buy multiple Majors than even a single True) is acceptable, because Major Potions aren't the cheapest. Which is a curious metric for success, but there you go.

As for Fighters, I agree. See, I too think that a party should use resources in fights, but the issue here is that, out of all resources, Hit Points are:a)the ones that are depleted the fastest; b) the ones depleted with the most frequency and c) the ones whose depletion causes actual death. Therefore, they should also be the easiest to replenish because otherwise it won't be just frontliners who stop the adventuring day early. It'll be everyone. Because nobody wants to die.

So yes, giving Fighters and other frontliners a resource beyond Hit Points to spend would help a long way. But I don't see it happening. I mean for pete's sake, Barbarians had Rage Rounds and we got rid of that! And the monk ki pool is now entirely optional. So it'd seem Resonance is supposed to be the limiting factor, but that isn't a good compromise IMO.


Themetricsystem wrote:

I coudn't disagree more, a PC who isn't willing to reserve some of their personal equipment and "potential" for healing themselves should they get hurt (At least in a party without a dedicated Healer) SHOULD be punished.

A little trick I still do at the table that I picked up from my AD&D days: I often tell the group I'm "out" of spell slots or resources about 25% from when I'm ACTUALLY fully out of resources, because we have a tendency to go charging into deadly situations that we should back away from, and I save back the exact resources to be able to beat a hasty retreat (heal spells, dimdoor/teleport-like effects, invisibilities, etc.).

If we rest, then AWESOME! IF we decide to get all macho and keep charging then I get to say, "See! Told you we'd get our butts stomped!" before pulling out the Plane Shift or Cure Serious spell/scroll.

Dark Archive

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Themetricsystem wrote:

I really get the feeling like most of these people complaining about having to pay resonance for Potions and Consumables simply DONT understand that it is problematic for game balance and likely assume that they should have the opportunity to fully buff up before every battle, activate every Magic Item, and use every x/Day Use Abilities before even rolling initiative. The same people who throw a fit if they cant heal up 100% after every fight, they assume if they cant steam through the encounters effortlessly then something is wrong with the math. If your PCs can just consume endless magic buffs and healing then there is no challenge.

I see your point and suspect most know that consumables tilt the battle heavily in their favor, being the reason why players use as many as possible. I agree - limiting the number of active buffs has considerable merit. However, the proposed solution here, resonance, may be far more corrosive to fun than the problem it seeks to remedy, which has the potential to negatively affect overall perceptions of the new edition. If streamlining things is the goal, adding a byzantine and wholly alien ruleset to core does us few favors. The question for many seems to be - how do we limit item abuse, streamline the ruleset, and retain the feel of Pathfinder?


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Themetricsystem wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:


When you MUST save your spare Resonance for HEALING quickly because if you don't you could DIE then there is something wrong.

I coudn't disagree more, a PC who isn't willing to reserve some of their personal equipment and "potential" for healing themselves should they get hurt (At least in a party without a dedicated Healer) SHOULD be punished.

If a PC can go in loaded to the gills having spent EVERY Copper piece they own on magic equipment to buff themselves, they would be remiss not to reserve some of that potential for healing. This is EXACTLY the kind of character who thrives in a 15 minute Day, they blow all their APL on powerful x/day effects and just wait until they can exploit them again.

I just don't understand why people think magical healing should be cheap, free, or easy.

No magic armor, no rings, no necklaces,no cloaks, you need it for healing. That's the problem.

Liberty's Edge

Wandering Wastrel wrote:

I think the key problem I have with Resonance - and actually, a lot of the PF2 changes - is that they seem to be designer-driven, rather than player-led.

If Paizo had done a survey asking us, the playing community, what changes/fixes we wanted from PF1, my answer would have been something like:

...

I disagree with most of the things you would have changed and the things you don't like about PF2 and most of the things where we agree have been changed, so, maybe, they asked the players and choose what was changed on a base a bit larger than your or mine opinion.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Honestly, I think managing your resources to make that happen is a lot more fun. It also makes the healing you get as a cleric more useful and cool since you don't get it for free after every fight.
I see comments like this and I can't help but think that my fun is VASTLY different from the people that say this. It's like people that have fun tracking each and every material component and want to do away with a component pouch because it makes the tracking of them meaningless and therefore less fun... If that does it for them, great, but for me I'm fine with the status quo...
It's not the tracking of resources that is fun, it is the balancing of resources to achieve your goals. It's the principle behind any of the popular resource-based strategy games.
Yeah, I'm actually a huge advocate of reducing fiddly resource tracking. I just also think that making those small number of resources you do track actually meaningful is important and interesting.

IMO, Resonance IS one of those "fiddly resource tracking" that isn't meaningful... IMO, it's right up there with tracking rations, water, ammo and material components. I know someone out there really loves tracking them but I'm more than happy to skip over those, IMO, needless paperwork/accounting actions and get on with the game. It's not Accountants and Actuaries the Game after all.

KingOfAnything: “you say potato; I say pot-ah-to.” Renaming resource tracking to resource balancing is just a shifting of optics as they are the same thing. What is interesting in a video game like civilization isn't in a tabletop RPG... I don't want to die of dysentery before the game starts. :P [insert oregon trail image here]

See, I was thinking tabletop games such as Power Grid or Splendor.

Those fiddly resources are fiddly because they don't meaningfully impact your gold budget, or your encumbrance budget after awhile. Stocking up on food and water doesn't limit your capacity for giant swords. The difference between fiddly tracking and the satisfaction of balancing resources is the tradeoffs. Then it becomes problem solving.


TheFinish wrote:

I've seen the potion prices, and commented on them. Mark said the hilarious price discrepancy between Major and True, and the conclusions you get from that (which is that it's much better to buy multiple Majors than even a single True) is acceptable, because Major Potions aren't the cheapest. Which is a curious metric for success, but there you go.

As for Fighters, I agree. See, I too think that a party should use resources in fights, but the issue here is that, out of all resources, Hit Points are:a)the ones that are depleted the fastest; b) the ones depleted with the most frequency and c) the ones whose depletion causes actual death. Therefore, they should also be the easiest to replenish because otherwise it won't be just frontliners who stop the adventuring day early. It'll be everyone. Because nobody wants to die.

So yes, giving Fighters and other frontliners a resource beyond Hit Points to spend would help a long way. But I don't see it happening. I mean for pete's sake, Barbarians had Rage Rounds and we got rid of that! And the monk ki pool is now entirely optional. So it'd seem Resonance is supposed to be the limiting factor, but that isn't a good compromise IMO.

I personally would rather see True at somewhere around 750-maybe900 than 1200, because that seems more reasonable to me cost-wise, but that's beside the point.

Hit Points should definitely be easy to replenish, but there should be a stopping point to how much you can replenish in a day. That's my general stance on it, but I don't think something like that can be implemented without some form of restriction and tracking. It's why I'm generally for the idea of Resonance, if not necessarily the current implementation.

In general, magical healing should be cheap, easy, and efficient, but just like everything else, it should have its limits.


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Themetricsystem wrote:

I really get the feeling like most of these people complaining about having to pay resonance for Potions and Consumables simply DONT understand that it is problematic for game balance and likely assume that they should have the opportunity to fully buff up before every battle, activate every Magic Item, and use every x/Day Use Abilities before even rolling initiative. The same people who throw a fit if they cant heal up 100% after every fight, they assume if they cant steam through the encounters effortlessly then something is wrong with the math. If your PCs can just consume endless magic buffs and healing then there is no challenge.

Assuming that Potions and Consumables shouldn't count towards your Characters APL calculation (Part and parcel of the PC Statistics just like any Class Ability or Racial Bonus) is so backwards it doesn't make sense. If they remove the Resonance System from these type of items for the Core Rules, I would be shocked if they didn't triple the cost and and Crafting Time required.

These kind of items bloat the APL of the Party WAYYY in excess of the game intent, Resonance is a GREAT way to ensure PCs aren't abusing every-single-stackable-effect possible. In many ways these kinds of effects have MUCH greater impact on the Combat that ANY other single RP Invested Item such as a +3 Warhammer or even that Cloak of Elvenkind EVER would.

Those kinds of items are also limited in use. So if you mistime the potion use, you have wasted your potion.

And if you're PCs CAN consume endless magic buffs and healing there IS something wrong. Where the heck are they getting the GOLD for that? Especially if they go the Potion route as that's a money sink it seems to be.

You don't want them getting all those consumables? Close up the shops, reward less gold, hike the price, make them less effective, you have so many different ways of fixing it.

But no, if you want to put words in peoples mouths fine.

I get the feeling people that cry about CLW wands being such a problem are the SAME people that will go out and use them anyway. Why? Because the math says so. It doesn't matter what it does to the game, the Math says this is the best course of action so we must do it. We cannot fix it because it is; Not our job, breaks the math, ruins no healer parties, and other reasons(Never mind that we tinker with all number of OTHER issues the game has).

Paizo finally comes down and "Fixes" the problem. The people that take full advantage of healing/buffing because the math says so, they are FREE of having to do so. To the people that played differently, we feel like we're getting restricted on what we do.

The difference is, people that Didn't abuse the game will just ignore it, rework it, or find some solution. The people that abused CLW? Well they'll find some other Math to chain themselves to and cry about how THAT effects the game.

Did I put enough words into people's mouths?


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I want to accentuate a point here:
Resonance is not just here to solve the "wand of cure light wounds problem".

It is trying to solve broader family of issues that come with balancing low level items (non-consumable AND consumable) in the face of having an exponential-scaling gold system.

Consider the "Batman Wizard"; that is to say a wizard that always has a solution in their "utility belt" of consumable items. At level 7 or 8, the wizard does not need to buy a magical weapon and thus can use that wealth to purchase or craft a plethora of low level spell scrolls. Suddenly, you have a character that for all intents and purposes has every single level 1 and 2 utility spell readied at all times. Soon thereafter that same wizard can buy or craft a wand of haste that lets them cast haste on their party every fight which is almost always the wizard's best option in the first round of a fight. This indirectly grants that wizard one extra spell per fight. Resonance slows this whole pain train down.

There are definitely other solutions to this family of problems; not the least of which is having wealth scale linearly and limiting characters to being able to use items of their level. Frankly, that is much simpler! To me at least, the resonance system is more fun and more flavorful though.


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MerlinCross wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

I really get the feeling like most of these people complaining about having to pay resonance for Potions and Consumables simply DONT understand that it is problematic for game balance and likely assume that they should have the opportunity to fully buff up before every battle, activate every Magic Item, and use every x/Day Use Abilities before even rolling initiative. The same people who throw a fit if they cant heal up 100% after every fight, they assume if they cant steam through the encounters effortlessly then something is wrong with the math. If your PCs can just consume endless magic buffs and healing then there is no challenge.

Assuming that Potions and Consumables shouldn't count towards your Characters APL calculation (Part and parcel of the PC Statistics just like any Class Ability or Racial Bonus) is so backwards it doesn't make sense. If they remove the Resonance System from these type of items for the Core Rules, I would be shocked if they didn't triple the cost and and Crafting Time required.

These kind of items bloat the APL of the Party WAYYY in excess of the game intent, Resonance is a GREAT way to ensure PCs aren't abusing every-single-stackable-effect possible. In many ways these kinds of effects have MUCH greater impact on the Combat that ANY other single RP Invested Item such as a +3 Warhammer or even that Cloak of Elvenkind EVER would.

Those kinds of items are also limited in use. So if you mistime the potion use, you have wasted your potion.

And if you're PCs CAN consume endless magic buffs and healing there IS something wrong. Where the heck are they getting the GOLD for that? Especially if they go the Potion route as that's a money sink it seems to be.

You don't want them getting all those consumables? Close up the shops, reward less gold, hike the price, make them less effective, you have so many different ways of fixing it.

But no, if you want to put words in peoples mouths fine.

I get the feeling people that cry about CLW...

Just because you can houserule a problem doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed.

That's like saying "because there are feat tax houserules we should leave every problematic feat tax around".

Liberty's Edge

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brad2411 wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

My (hypothetic) PF2 level 3 cleric use of the staff. Level 3 cleric, cha 14, resonance 5.

1 RP for armor
1 RP for a weapon
1 RP for the staff
2 RP in reserve for consumables.

The staff gives me +1 hp healed for each Heal spell. Not great, but better than nothing.
It gives me an extra cantrip, Stabilize. Great, I get to use one of my cantrip slots for something different. The only drawback is that it encumber one of my hands or I need to draw it when needed (and that cost an action).
The 3 Heal charges: I will use them after I have used up all my resonance for others things. After the end of a battle: "Guys, it is time to flip the coin, get around me", roll a dice, 50% chance of area heal, then 45% and 40%. I really doubt I will spend RP points to fuel a charge, as that expenditure seems extremely inefficient. At low level the cost is high, a high level the effect is too low.
Paying one RP to get 1 cantrip and + Hp for each cure spell, plus a chance of up to 3 other cure spells, good.
1 RP to cast a cure spell when I have a passable chance of getting it for free? Bad.

eddv wrote:
Except its 2 cure spells because you only have 2 resonance to spend on it.

Except you didn't read the part where he said he isn't spending any RP on cure charges at all, because he's using the "50% roll for it" method since there is no urgency in out-of-combat healing so the chance he wastes his action and has to try again doesn't have significant downside for him. His 2 RP were used for other consumable usages (the staff with daily regenerable charges isn't a consumable).

The Blog text seems to read that you can only use the 0-RP "50% Roll For It" method when you reach 0 RP, but I'm not sure if that is strict rule, or just assumption the Blog went with. As I've posted asking for clarification, it seems reasonable that one could "leave some RP in reserve" while attempting to activate items using the "50% Roll For It" method, but

...

Even if you can "save" up resonance and use the roll for it, which I am pretty sure you can't use it tell you are out of resonance points, if you fail your check by so much then you lose access to your resonance all together.

And that is exactly the point of "The 3 Heal charges: I will use them after I have used up all my resonance for others things. After the end of a battle: "Guys, it is time to flip the coin, get around me", roll a dice, 50% chance of area heal, then 45% and 40%. I really doubt I will spend RP points to fuel a charge, as that expenditure seems extremely inefficient. At low level the cost is high, a high level the effect is too low.

Paying one RP to get 1 cantrip and + Hp for each cure spell, plus a chance of up to 3 other cure spells, good.
1 RP to cast a cure spell when I have a passable chance of getting it for free? Bad."

If the 3 resonance point needed for the charges can be used for 3 spell level 3 scrolls of cure with a reasonable price, I don't see any reason to use them for a weaker healing effect that I have a 50% chance to get for free.
I critically fail the roll? Fine, a source of free healing dried up for today. Maybe it is time to pick up and return to our base camp, or time to stop for a healing ritual (if it exists), or time to open the medicine bag and do some mundane healing.
As the healing staff can fail if I don't use resonance it will not be the last option for the group, it will be the middle way option, when my cleric resonance has been used up but he still has other way to cure.


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Cyouni wrote:


The thing is again, I'm really not sure it's possible to rework the economics so that it's remotely feasible. It's slightly better now that healing spells scale up by 2d8 per level, but even then...

Let's look at the prices we know of:
Moderate, Level 5, 20 gp: 3d8+8
Greater, Level 8, 60 gp: 5d8+12
Major, Level 12, 250 gp: 7d8+20
True, Level 18, 1200 gp: 9d8+30

Even in this case, we can't remotely manage it, because reducing consumables to be price-comparable would distort the whole economy around them. You'd have to have a Major potion at around 80 gp (True is a step too high, but leaving that for later) to be remotely price-comparable, and even that would make it incredibly easy to access at lower levels for health economy.

---

Part of the other reason is so that Fighters and other martial characters can't just coast on healing forever instead of burning resources like everyone else, but I'm not sure what a decent solution...

They already have the video game style item level thing going on, may as well use that to limit potion access and keep prices about the same. There isn't a need for two tools to do the same job even if it were a job worth doing. Since they seem locked into some sort of video game style solution to this non-issue, they could also put cooldowns on consumables. Or give them the whole trifecta of nonsense rules!

"No, I'm not still full from the last potion, and I have enough innate magic to switch on this potion, but I'm just not powerful enough to drink it yet!" glorious.

Hey, maybe I can drink the potion right away and just invest the resonance when I need the healing.


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So here's a question I haven't seen addressed-

Since Resonance basically replaces the UMD skill, can any fighter simply spend resonance to use a scroll or a wand, or is there now no way whatsoever for a fighter to use a wand?


PossibleCabbage wrote:

So here's a question I haven't seen addressed-

Since Resonance basically replaces the UMD skill, can any fighter simply spend resonance to use a scroll or a wand, or is there now no way whatsoever for a fighter to use a wand?

I think you either need the spells or need the appropriate skill feat for arcana/religion/nature/occult.


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Darius Alazario wrote:

I can see something like a slimmer version of resonance being added simply for limiting the number of permanent magic items one can be invested in or attuned to in place of the slot system. That is cool.

They also say that this system is there to help reduce the different bits of tracking to be done but that Staff of healing still has charges to be managed. It seems like those wands still have charges to be considered before they run out. Some items still have X/day uses like the Luck blade... so are we really getting rid of tracking or are we just adding one more pool to the list?

In which case the only real goal it is accomplishing decently is removing item slots.

While I can agree with this sentiment, and I would like to see Resonance toned down to a hard limit on permanent magic items, the problem I can see is that Resonance is basically shoehorning people's playstyles in a way other mechanics haven't before, to its detriment. Some people enjoy the Christmas Tree effect, others would rather have a more freeform system where those who want a bad Charisma are somehow less competent at using magic items.

I'm not saying that Charisma shouldn't be made more useful, just that this doesn't seem to be a valid avenue to achieving that goal.


Diego Rossi wrote:
brad2411 wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

My (hypothetic) PF2 level 3 cleric use of the staff. Level 3 cleric, cha 14, resonance 5.

1 RP for armor
1 RP for a weapon
1 RP for the staff
2 RP in reserve for consumables.

The staff gives me +1 hp healed for each Heal spell. Not great, but better than nothing.
It gives me an extra cantrip, Stabilize. Great, I get to use one of my cantrip slots for something different. The only drawback is that it encumber one of my hands or I need to draw it when needed (and that cost an action).
The 3 Heal charges: I will use them after I have used up all my resonance for others things. After the end of a battle: "Guys, it is time to flip the coin, get around me", roll a dice, 50% chance of area heal, then 45% and 40%. I really doubt I will spend RP points to fuel a charge, as that expenditure seems extremely inefficient. At low level the cost is high, a high level the effect is too low.
Paying one RP to get 1 cantrip and + Hp for each cure spell, plus a chance of up to 3 other cure spells, good.
1 RP to cast a cure spell when I have a passable chance of getting it for free? Bad.

eddv wrote:
Except its 2 cure spells because you only have 2 resonance to spend on it.

Except you didn't read the part where he said he isn't spending any RP on cure charges at all, because he's using the "50% roll for it" method since there is no urgency in out-of-combat healing so the chance he wastes his action and has to try again doesn't have significant downside for him. His 2 RP were used for other consumable usages (the staff with daily regenerable charges isn't a consumable).

The Blog text seems to read that you can only use the 0-RP "50% Roll For It" method when you reach 0 RP, but I'm not sure if that is strict rule, or just assumption the Blog went with. As I've posted asking for clarification, it seems reasonable that one could "leave some RP in reserve" while attempting to activate items using the

...

I agree that the healing staff rules could make for a weird kind of strategic charge brinksmanship. If I was a sorceror with a healing staff, then I'd probably spend some of my relatively plentiful resonance to turn some of those charges into a sure thing, though

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Darius Alazario wrote:

I can see something like a slimmer version of resonance being added simply for limiting the number of permanent magic items one can be invested in or attuned to in place of the slot system. That is cool.

They also say that this system is there to help reduce the different bits of tracking to be done but that Staff of healing still has charges to be managed. It seems like those wands still have charges to be considered before they run out. Some items still have X/day uses like the Luck blade... so are we really getting rid of tracking or are we just adding one more pool to the list?

In which case the only real goal it is accomplishing decently is removing item slots.

While I can agree with this sentiment, and I would like to see Resonance toned down to a hard limit on permanent magic items, the problem I can see is that Resonance is basically shoehorning people's playstyles in a way other mechanics haven't before, to its detriment. Some people enjoy the Christmas Tree effect, others would rather have a more freeform system where those who want a bad Charisma are somehow less competent at using magic items.

I'm not saying that Charisma shouldn't be made more useful, just that this doesn't seem to be a valid avenue to achieving that goal.

So you would say that the "exploits" that myself and others have discussed above (CLW spam/"Batman wizarding") are features of the old wealth system sans RP rather than a glitch in those systems?

I do not think the christmas tree is the only problem being solved by RP. I don't even know if it is the main one.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I feel like if people stopped worrying about what things cost outside of combat, everything would be a lot easier.

High level wands and potions are viable in combat. Low level ones are not. The action economy and scaling of incoming damage pretty much guarantees that at high levels, expensive options will see more use unless those options aren't worth it.

My game doesn't come crashing down because high level players have easy access to a variety of low level scrolls and potions. Outside of combat, they solve convenience issues like surviving the cold and breathing under water. In combat, they're modest buffs that compete against all the things a high level player can do with an action or two.

Mid-tier potions and buffs are still expensive enough that high level players aren't going to be buying and using armfuls of them, but again even if they do the high level characters should have abilities that outshine them.

I honestly don't know why it bothers people that items can be relevant in some way throughout game's duration. No one complained about high level players still eating rations, right?


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Themetricsystem wrote:
I coudn't disagree more, a PC who isn't willing to reserve some of their personal equipment and "potential" for healing themselves should they get hurt (At least in a party without a dedicated Healer) SHOULD be punished.

Wow. I'm glad I don't game at your table.


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WatersLethe wrote:

I feel like if people stopped worrying about what things cost outside of combat, everything would be a lot easier.

High level wands and potions are viable in combat. Low level ones are not. The action economy and scaling of incoming damage pretty much guarantees that at high levels, expensive options will see more use unless those options aren't worth it.

My game doesn't come crashing down because high level players have easy access to a variety of low level scrolls and potions. Outside of combat, they solve convenience issues like surviving the cold and breathing under water. In combat, they're modest buffs that compete against all the things a high level player can do with an action or two.

Mid-tier potions and buffs are still expensive enough that high level players aren't going to be buying and using armfuls of them, but again even if they do the high level characters should have abilities that outshine them.

I honestly don't know why it bothers people that items can be relevant in some way throughout game's duration. No one complained about high level players still eating rations, right?

The issue with healing is the out of combat solutions solve some of the in combat ones. Being able to do other minor tricks doesn't equate in the same way.

And while I don't have a problem with high level players eating, I do have an issue with how it costs basically nothing to them to avoid any sort of environmental issue. The cold wastes of the north might as well be the scoriching desert of Osirion for all the environment mechanically matters past a certain point. At least with Resonance, even if the monetary cost for avoiding those problems is negligible there is still a resource at play in the circumventing, and that might lead to some interesting gameplay choices.

E.G when being immune to the heat of the desert is functionally free the desert makes no impact. When it costs a Resonance the players might decide instead to change their tactics for actual reasons "we need to bring everything we've got to this fight, lets wait until night so we don't need to waste any magic on dealing with the blasted sun."


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WatersLethe wrote:

I feel like if people stopped worrying about what things cost outside of combat, everything would be a lot easier.

High level wands and potions are viable in combat. Low level ones are not. The action economy and scaling of incoming damage pretty much guarantees that at high levels, expensive options will see more use unless those options aren't worth it.

My game doesn't come crashing down because high level players have easy access to a variety of low level scrolls and potions. Outside of combat, they solve convenience issues like surviving the cold and breathing under water. In combat, they're modest buffs that compete against all the things a high level player can do with an action or two.

Mid-tier potions and buffs are still expensive enough that high level players aren't going to be buying and using armfuls of them, but again even if they do the high level characters should have abilities that outshine them.

I honestly don't know why it bothers people that items can be relevant in some way throughout game's duration. No one complained about high level players still eating rations, right?

Those scrolls also let the players detect undead, detect technology, turn invisible, detect charm effects, detect alignment, communicate psychically, identify magic items, disguise their magical aura, restore corpses, decompose corpses, alter wind strength, increase carrying capacity, break an unattended object, fix a broken object, generate nonmagical ammunition, jump higher, ignore the fragile quality of a weapon, immediately equip you and your allies with your unattended equipment, and gain swim and climb speeds.

That is just level 1 wizard spells.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Malk_Content wrote:


The issue with healing is the out of combat solutions solve some of the in combat ones. Being able to do other minor tricks doesn't equate in the same way.

And while I don't have a problem with high level players eating, I do have an issue with how it costs basically nothing to them to avoid any sort of environmental issue. The cold wastes of the north might as well be the scoriching desert of Osirion for all the environment mechanically matters past a certain point. At least with Resonance, even if the monetary cost for avoiding those problems is negligible there is still a resource at play in the circumventing, and that might lead to some interesting gameplay choices.

E.G when being immune to the heat of the desert is functionally free the desert makes no impact. When it costs a Resonance the players might decide instead to change their tactics for actual reasons "we...

I will be very surprised if there isn't a pretty easy way to top people up between fights, so it doesn't really matter if that's done with cheap wands or a short rest mechanic.

At high enough levels, I don't want desert heat to matter. Get the appropriate buffs and march through weather that would have crippled you when you were level 5. High levels are about making a base camp on the surface of the sun, or wading through oceans of pure negative energy. I'll be upset if my high level, tough as nails barbarian with innate fire damage resistance has to hem and haw about the time of day in the desert.


Malk_Content wrote:
And while I don't have a problem with high level players eating, I do have an issue with how it costs basically nothing to them to avoid any sort of environmental issue. The cold wastes of the north might as well be the scoriching desert of Osirion for all the environment mechanically matters past a certain point. At least with Resonance, even if the monetary cost for avoiding those problems is negligible there is still a resource at play in the circumventing, and that might lead to some interesting gameplay choices.

It's interesting that you reference environmental effects specifically - I played a tabletop Kingmaker game recently where I really emphasised the harshness of the weather in the first bit of the AP: they had to make Fort saves or take non-lethal damage from the cold, they got ambushed by wolves and couldn't shoot them easily because it was raining so hard, the mist gave them absolute conniptions in getting lost, that sort of thing. It made every hex they explored feel like a real achievement.

But by book 2 of the AP, when they were kingdom-building and exploring? I barely mentioned the weather at all, except in passing: they were high-level enough that it didn't bother them, and I made a point of noting that. It gave them a real sense of achievement, like they were progressing in power.

Of course, I then threw the kingdom-level challenges at them... *insert maniacal laughter here*

Just goes to show how different groups enjoy the game in different ways. I hope that's still possible in PF2 and that we aren't all forced to play the game in the 'right' way.

Assuming my group adopts PF2 at all, that is.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Excaliburproxy wrote:


Those scrolls also let the players detect undead, detect technology, turn invisible, detect charm effects, detect alignment, communicate psychically, identify magic items, disguise their magical aura, restore corpses, decompose corpses, alter wind strength, increase carrying capacity, break an unattended object, fix a broken object, generate nonmagical ammunition, jump higher, ignore the fragile quality of a weapon, immediately equip you and your allies with your unattended equipment, and gain swim and climb speeds.

That is just level 1 wizard spells.

I'm not really impressed, though. First, you need to acquire those spells. Asking the GM for a copy of A through Z of all levels of spells is a pretty tall order. Some GMs might not let you.

Even if they do, how many of those are actually going to be used? I'm conceptually okay with a high level wizard spending... 25*19 = 475 gold on a bunch of one off spells. None of those things are super concerning for me for a high level party to be able to do.

Also, we haven't seen full spell lists but a lot of low level spells in 2nd edition aren't looking quite as strong, especially since they're not scaling with caster level.


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Wandering Wastrel wrote:

Just goes to show how different groups enjoy the game in different ways. I hope that's still possible in PF2 and that we aren't all forced to play the game in the 'right' way.

Assuming my group adopts PF2 at all, that is.

I'm right there with you, but the more has been revealed of PF2 the more I doubt it. PF2 is not setting agnostic, and therefore looks like now more than ever PF2 is being designed to support APs and PFS, so if your home games doesn't align with that, well good luck, of course this is just my impression of what has been reveled.


WatersLethe wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:


Those scrolls also let the players detect undead, detect technology, turn invisible, detect charm effects, detect alignment, communicate psychically, identify magic items, disguise their magical aura, restore corpses, decompose corpses, alter wind strength, increase carrying capacity, break an unattended object, fix a broken object, generate nonmagical ammunition, jump higher, ignore the fragile quality of a weapon, immediately equip you and your allies with your unattended equipment, and gain swim and climb speeds.

That is just level 1 wizard spells.

I'm not really impressed, though. First, you need to acquire those spells. Asking the GM for a copy of A through Z of all levels of spells is a pretty tall order. Some GMs might not let you.

Even if they do, how many of those are actually going to be used? I'm conceptually okay with a high level wizard spending... 25*19 = 475 gold on a bunch of one off spells. None of those things are super concerning for me for a high level party to be able to do.

Also, we haven't seen full spell lists but a lot of low level spells in 2nd edition aren't looking quite as strong, especially since they're not scaling with caster level.

That is just shifting the work to the GM which isn’t great either.

You are right about a lot of these low level spells being weaker and that does do something to mitigate the situation. There are still going to be utility spells that are going to be useful in 2E though. Moreover, some of these spells are going to let the wizard obviate skill checks that other characters have invested in. It makes the wizard the main problem solver out of combat and that doesn’t feel good for everyone else.

I will also remind you that at level 6, pathfinder’s suggested treasure per encounter is between 1350 and 3000, a +2 weapon is 8k, their expected wealth is about 16k, and their expected wealth next level is 23.5k. With scroll crafting, all the abilities that I listed are chump change.

I will also note that pf2e scrolls look like they are gonna be cheaper in general (though that decision in itself is due to the fact that resonance is in the game at all).


edduardco wrote:
Wandering Wastrel wrote:

Just goes to show how different groups enjoy the game in different ways. I hope that's still possible in PF2 and that we aren't all forced to play the game in the 'right' way.

Assuming my group adopts PF2 at all, that is.

I'm right there with you, but the more has been revealed of PF2 the more I doubt it. PF2 is not setting agnostic, and therefore looks like now more than ever PF2 is being designed to support APs and PFS, so if your home games doesn't align with that, well good luck, of course this is just my impression of what has been reveled.

I am right there with you on this point, man. I have never run a Golarion game in my life and I have maybe been in one for like 12 hours tops. That is coming from someone who has played something on the scale of 1000 to 2000 hours of Pathfinder.

I like resonance and I am actually kind of excited to write it into my setting but a lot of this deity-specific stuff and the setting specific archetypes are probably going to be a pain in my ass.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Excaliburproxy wrote:


That is just shifting the work to the GM which isn’t great either.

You are right about a lot of these low level spells being weaker and that does do something to mitigate the situation. There are still going to be utility spells that are going to be useful in 2E though. Moreover, some of these spells are going to let the wizard obviate skill checks that other characters have invested in. It makes the wizard the main problem solver out of combat and that doesn’t feel good for everyone else.

I will also remind you that at level 6, pathfinder’s suggested treasure per encounter is between 1350 and 3000, a +2 weapon is 8k, their expected wealth is about 16k, and their expected wealth next level is 23.5k. With scroll crafting, all the abilities that I listed are chump change.

I will also note that pf2e scrolls look like they are gonna be cheaper in general (though that decision in itself is due to the fact that resonance is in the game at all).

So, what you're saying is, since you would only use one or two of those niche spells a day and high level players have tons of Resonance, PF2e exacerbates the bag of tricks problem by making low level scrolls cheaper than before?

Liberty's Edge

Wands being unusable outside of Encounter mode ?

We know that it is already the case for some actions such as having your shield ready to block attacks

And some Skill feats to circumvent this


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WatersLethe wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:


That is just shifting the work to the GM which isn’t great either.

You are right about a lot of these low level spells being weaker and that does do something to mitigate the situation. There are still going to be utility spells that are going to be useful in 2E though. Moreover, some of these spells are going to let the wizard obviate skill checks that other characters have invested in. It makes the wizard the main problem solver out of combat and that doesn’t feel good for everyone else.

I will also remind you that at level 6, pathfinder’s suggested treasure per encounter is between 1350 and 3000, a +2 weapon is 8k, their expected wealth is about 16k, and their expected wealth next level is 23.5k. With scroll crafting, all the abilities that I listed are chump change.

I will also note that pf2e scrolls look like they are gonna be cheaper in general (though that decision in itself is due to the fact that resonance is in the game at all).

So, what you're saying is, since you would only use one or two of those niche spells a day and high level players have tons of Resonance, PF2e exacerbates the bag of tricks problem by making low level scrolls cheaper than before?

Honestly, I do worry about that!

That said, resonance makes using that bag of tricks cost a real resource that the wizard might want to use with a staff or drink a potion. It also makes having a bag of tricks affordable to the other player characters by the wizard who doesn't need to buy a dope magic sword and shield or whatever isn't the only special tricky boy in the party. Making low level spells generally weaker and less able to replace skill checks is certainly part of the equation though.


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Excaliburproxy wrote:

I want to accentuate a point here:

Resonance is not just here to solve the "wand of cure light wounds problem".

It is trying to solve broader family of issues that come with balancing low level items (non-consumable AND consumable) in the face of having an exponential-scaling gold system.

Consider the "Batman Wizard"; that is to say a wizard that always has a solution in their "utility belt" of consumable items. At level 7 or 8, the wizard does not need to buy a magical weapon and thus can use that wealth to purchase or craft a plethora of low level spell scrolls. Suddenly, you have a character that for all intents and purposes has every single level 1 and 2 utility spell readied at all times. Soon thereafter that same wizard can buy or craft a wand of haste that lets them cast haste on their party every fight which is almost always the wizard's best option in the first round of a fight. This indirectly grants that wizard one extra spell per fight. Resonance slows this whole pain train down.

There are definitely other solutions to this family of problems; not the least of which is having wealth scale linearly and limiting characters to being able to use items of their level. Frankly, that is much simpler! To me at least, the resonance system is more fun and more flavorful though.

Everyone is still calling this a problem - it is not universally accepted as such by any stretch of the imagination.

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