Fuzzy Feet and Voles to Meet

Friday, April 13, 2018

Overlooked and disrespected, halflings and gnomes get by in their own way. Human society's misguided expectations don't mean much when you know who you are and what you're about. Let's take a look at the ancestry entries for these folks!

You might also want to take a gander at the Big Beards and Pointy Ears blog to see how dwarves and elves work if you're a fan of ancestries that are entirely too tall and entirely too stuffy.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Halflings

Living among taller folk gives halflings a good bit of perspective and plenty of opportunities to make new friends—plenty of opportunities of all kinds, really. Keep your eyes open and your heart brave, and you can accomplish anything!

Both halflings and gnomes get 8 Hit Points from their respective ancestries, are Small, and have a speed of 20 feet. A halfling speaks Common and Halfling. Halflings have nimble fingers, giving them an ability boost to Dexterity, and are jovial, getting another ability boost in Charisma. They also get one free ability boost to put in any score. Now, there's nothing wrong with how you're made, but halflings do get an ability flaw to Strength. Seems like a better deal, though. Goblins are a bit stronger, but they're not so wise, and good sense is a good trade. (You can read more about goblins here!)

We've mentioned ability boosts and flaws a few times now, so let's go into more detail about how those work! At 1st level, your ability scores all start at 10. Your ancestry then gives you ability boosts, each of which increases the score by 2. Most ancestries get three ability boosts, two of which have to go into specific scores. The remaining free ability boost can go into any score except the two set ones. Most ancestries also get a flaw, which decreases a designated score by 2. You can put your free ability boost in the same score as your flaw if you want to get back to 10. In later parts of character creation, you'll get more ability boosts, which we'll cover in later blogs! (And if you want to roll your ability scores randomly, we have an option for that in the playtest so you can see how that might work, though we prefer for characters used in the playtest to be generated in the standard way.)

Now, where was I? Halflings, right!

At 1st level and as they level up, halflings can pick up halfling ancestry feats that take advantage of their size, their gumption, and their fabled luck. Distracting Shadows lets them sneak around by using larger creatures as cover. They might also pick up Plucky to overcome fear and other detriments to their emotions. They can take Titan Slinger to get a bonus to damage when using their slings against Large or larger creatures. This bonus increases on critical hits, even before being doubled! Additionally, the sling is now a more formidable weapon than in Pathfinder First Edition—we've both increased its damage and done away with the difference in damage die size between Small and Medium creatures. A halfling with a sling can be pretty dangerous!

One feat we know will be popular is Lucky Halfling, which lets you reroll one skill check or saving throw you fail or critically fail once each day. Rules in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook list traits that apply to feats, often indicating special rules. This one has the fortune trait, which appears on all sorts of things that involve rerolls and manipulating dice in your favor. You can benefit from fortune only once on a given roll, and misfortune can cancel it out.

As mentioned in the blog post about dwarves and elves, ancestry entries suggest some backgrounds you might choose that are common for those of your ancestry. Halflings are often entertainers, acrobats, or street urchins. Many come from hard lives as criminals or laborers.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Gnomes

What's THAT?!

A gnome's life is a constant barrage of the curious, the compelling, the cacophonous, the colorful, and the chaotic. There's always something new to discover. There... kind of has to be. See, gnomes who don't take in enough novel experiences are stricken by the Bleaching—their colorful hair turns white as their minds fall into despair. So let's not do that. Let's explore!

Now, when you're exploring, it's good to be durable because who knows what you might encounter. It helps that gnomes are tough and charming, with ability boosts to Constitution and Charisma, plus their one free ability boost to any other score. Gnomes have a flaw in Strength. Who needs it? Magic's better. And alchemical bombs. Those look fun. Gnomes can speak Common, Gnome, and Sylvan, but might want to study up on some other languages too. They can also see in low light—all the better for exploring into the dusk.

Gnomes came from the First World, the realm of the fey, long ago. Their ancestry feats can reflect this, like Fey Fellowship, which makes a gnome more charismatic when dealing with fey, or First World Magic, which gives the gnome a cantrip spell chosen from a wide number of options (including dancing lights, prestidigitation, and tanglefoot, to name a few).

Discerning Smell lets a gnome truly appreciate peculiar food and drink, or sniff out that invisible orc who's caked in the clay from a particular mountain pass, hasn't bathed in roughly 8 years, and recently ate a live bird. (A swallow, fittingly.) And, of course, you can choose Animal Speaker so you can talk to all your favorite burrowing animals!

A gnome's younger years will no doubt be weird, so they could have any kind of background—even a path they abandoned early on. A gnome might be an entertainer, a merchant, a nomad, an animal whisperer, a barkeep, or a farmhand.

How do these two ancestries stack up? (About 6 feet high, I'd say.) What sort of halfling or gnome characters do you look forward to playing?

Logan Bonner
Designer

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Mbertorch wrote:
Not that I'm not finding this information fascinating (seriously, I am into this kind of stuff), but can this thread not be about Napoleon's height?

Hey now. Don't be short with us.


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bookrat wrote:
Mbertorch wrote:
Not that I'm not finding this information fascinating (seriously, I am into this kind of stuff), but can this thread not be about Napoleon's height?
Hey now. Don't be short with us.

You know, I almost responded in an argumentative manner...

But I stopped short.


What about if you want to play as a Halfling Arcanist or a Halfling Eagle Knight? Are their suggested Backgrounds for that? Not every Halfling is a roguish scoundrel after all.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Mbertorch wrote:
bookrat wrote:
Mbertorch wrote:
Not that I'm not finding this information fascinating (seriously, I am into this kind of stuff), but can this thread not be about Napoleon's height?
Hey now. Don't be short with us.

You know, I almost responded in an argumentative manner...

But I stopped short.

I find it amusing that a short tangent of mine derailed the discussion for a bit. I truly did live up to my handle.

The point of Napoleon was a "short" charismatic leader... who actually wasn't that short. I suppose it would be closer to Merry and Pippin, who became charismatic leaders among the Hobbits but were taller in stature than their brethren (as a result of drinking Entwash).

But most hobbits weren't overly Charismatic. They were plain ordinary folk. That was their "charm" - but what was more impressive is their strength of will. Bilbo carried the One Ring for over 50 years before it started twisting him. Gollum was kin to the Hobbits and held the One Ring for hundreds of years and yet never Faded. Samwise was able to resist the temptations of the One Ring when it had crossed over into Mordor itself.

Halflings are essentially hobbits, with a name change for legal purposes. If you want to remain true to them, you want to go with strength-of-will for them - Wisdom, not Charisma.

Likewise, Gnomes are inquisitive and curious. This is how their Pathfinder Lore is written up. So it makes sense for curiosity and inquisitiveness, traits of intelligence, to be linked to Intelligence rather than Charisma.


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I know it's unlikely, but I would love if the devs weighed in on this. Even a vague "the ancestries are designed with versatility in mind, so don't worry about starting ability scores," (which I wouldn't like, but is at least something) or an equally nondescript "the ancestries could possibly change even regarding something as fundamental as ability scores, based on feedback" (which is something like which I hope to hear).

I'm not expecting a "hey, yeah, we'll change it from Charisma for all three races to something different. Thanks."

Just information that such a change is indeed possible would be AMAZING.


Well, if the ability boosts are going to change, it's most likely not going to change until after the actual playtest has started. So not before August.


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The developers have indicated some willingness to listen to feedback on the blogs -- so don't give this short shrift.

Silver Crusade

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After finding out all three small ancestries have +CHA, I feel this blog came up short.

They're really under selling ancestral diversity.

I'm not trying to speak little of them, I just think it can use some small adjustments.


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Just from a symmetry perspective I'm kinda not a fan that 3 of the 8 ancestries get a bonus to Dexterity, and 3 get a bonus to Charisma. Meanwhile only the Elves get Intelligence and only the Dwarves get Wisdom, and nobody has Strength yet.

Now perhaps half-elves get +2 Int and +2 floating, ahd half-orcs get +2 Str and +2 floating so then it's just str and wis that have only one ancestry with an inherent bonus to it. But we still have dex and cha over-represented.

Partly this is a legacy issue, since str races were not common in PF1 (I count Nagaji, Suli, 1 kind of Aasimar, 2 kinds of Tiefling, 2 kinds of Changeling, and 3 kinds of Dhampir) but a huge number of floating bonuses are going to go into strength, I'm guessing. Also there were a huge number of dex/cha races in PF1, weren't there? IF things like Kitsune, Dhampir, and Catfolk get added in the second wave of ancestries and keep their PF1 stats, we'll be at 5 Dex/Cha ancestries.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Partly this is a legacy issue, since str races were not common in PF1 (I count Nagaji, Suli, 1 kind of Aasimar, 2 kinds of Tiefling, 2 kinds of Changeling, and 3 kinds of Dhampir) but a huge number of floating bonuses are going to go into strength, I'm guessing.

Off the top of my head, there's also oread, plus the (more obscure) trox, reptoids, orang-pendak, and rougarou. And probably some others I've missed. ^_^

(Not counting the race-built ones from Blood of the Sea or the Advanced Race Guide.)

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Also there were a huge number of dex/cha races in PF1, weren't there? IF things like Kitsune, Dhampir, and Catfolk get added in the second wave of ancestries and keep their PF1 stats, we'll be at 5 Dex/Cha ancestries.

There were a TON. The majority of which had Wis as their penalty. Off the top of my head...

Halflings
Ifrit
Fetchlings
Vishkanya
Beastbrood tieflings
Dhampir
Catfolk
Musetouched aasimar
Kitsune
Naiad
Merfolk
Fanglord skinwalkers

Maybe that's why everyone was so obsessed with Dex to damage... it's hard to find a good Str race, especially in PFS, but Dex was everywhere.

Liberty's Edge

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The other issue is that only Half Orcs are even an appropriate Ancestry to get a Str bonus in the core 8 Ancestries (and we don't know what they're doing with them yet). And Dex is unavoidably gonna wind up over represented since Elves, Halflings, and Goblins all need to have it due to legacy issues (and that can't be easily fixed).

That said, I do agree that Cha is over represented and Str, Wis, and Int under (right now with the 5 Ancestries we've got it's 0 Str, 3 Dex, 2 Con, 1 Int, 1 Wis, 3 Cha) but switching Halflings from Cha to Wis seems as much of a fix as is practical (0 Str, 3 Dex, 2 Con, 1 Int, 2 Wis, 2 Cha). The penalties look a bit more even though Str still takes it hard (2 Str, 0 Dex, 1 Con, 0 Int, 1 Wis, 1 Cha).

So, yeah, I'll reiterate my support for Halflings as a Dex/Wis Ancestry. It seems a good fit.


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Every race can now be a strength race (except halflings) thanks to the floating +2.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Mbertorch wrote:

I know it's unlikely, but I would love if the devs weighed in on this. Even a vague "the ancestries are designed with versatility in mind, so don't worry about starting ability scores," (which I wouldn't like, but is at least something) or an equally nondescript "the ancestries could possibly change even regarding something as fundamental as ability scores, based on feedback" (which is something like which I hope to hear).

I'm not expecting a "hey, yeah, we'll change it from Charisma for all three races to something different. Thanks."

Just information that such a change is indeed possible would be AMAZING.

If I remember correctly, there was a stage of PF1 beta where Jason had been considering giving halflings +2 Wisdom instead of Charisma to be more different than gnomes but it got changed due to passionate feedback in favor of Charisma, so there's certainly precedent for changing the ability adjustments due to feedback!

Liberty's Edge

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John Lynch 106 wrote:
Every race can now be a strength race (except halflings) thanks to the floating +2.

Gnomes also have the same -2 Str as Halflings.

And the floating stat is indeed great, but what stats have built in bonuses are still pretty relevant.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Mbertorch wrote:

I know it's unlikely, but I would love if the devs weighed in on this. Even a vague "the ancestries are designed with versatility in mind, so don't worry about starting ability scores," (which I wouldn't like, but is at least something) or an equally nondescript "the ancestries could possibly change even regarding something as fundamental as ability scores, based on feedback" (which is something like which I hope to hear).

I'm not expecting a "hey, yeah, we'll change it from Charisma for all three races to something different. Thanks."

Just information that such a change is indeed possible would be AMAZING.

If I remember correctly, there was a stage of PF1 beta where Jason had been considering giving halflings +2 Wisdom instead of Charisma to be more different than gnomes but it got changed due to passionate feedback in favor of Charisma, so there's certainly precedent for changing the ability adjustments due to feedback!

Will be interesting to see if the playtest feedback with its much larger player pool will give a vastly diferent feedback than the threads in the board.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
If I remember correctly, there was a stage of PF1 beta where Jason had been considering giving halflings +2 Wisdom instead of Charisma to be more different than gnomes but it got changed due to passionate feedback in favor of Charisma, so there's certainly precedent for changing the ability adjustments due to feedback!

I hope so, because having all three small races having bonuses to Charisma is a little too much to bare. I would be on board with giving Halflings a bonus to Wisdom (resist the One Ring!) and Gnomes a bonus to Intelligence (illusionists!). Anything that made the small ancestries feel less "samey" in their stats. While the floating bonus can be placed anywhere, people aren't going to be getting their impression of the ancestries from floating numbers, but from the hardwired bonuses.

Scarab Sages

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Mark Seifter wrote:
Mbertorch wrote:

I know it's unlikely, but I would love if the devs weighed in on this. Even a vague "the ancestries are designed with versatility in mind, so don't worry about starting ability scores," (which I wouldn't like, but is at least something) or an equally nondescript "the ancestries could possibly change even regarding something as fundamental as ability scores, based on feedback" (which is something like which I hope to hear).

I'm not expecting a "hey, yeah, we'll change it from Charisma for all three races to something different. Thanks."

Just information that such a change is indeed possible would be AMAZING.

If I remember correctly, there was a stage of PF1 beta where Jason had been considering giving halflings +2 Wisdom instead of Charisma to be more different than gnomes but it got changed due to passionate feedback in favor of Charisma, so there's certainly precedent for changing the ability adjustments due to feedback!

OMG, we already have Jason on our side! Persevere, friends, we can do this! :D

Mark, what’s your own stance on this?

I’d say our grassroots movement definitely counts as passionate feedback. I don’t see anything remotely comparable from the pro-Cha folks.

I’d also assume that the playtest would be the ideal testbed for trying out a change like this. If Paizo starts with Cha Halflings and gets overwhelming feedback to the contrary, they’ll have to roll out the change in the full version, which is much riskier!

(Also, from an RP perspective, I think it would make sense for Half-Elves to get a Cha bonus and a free float. Everybody seems to like them. Best of both worlds an all... then Half-Orcs could get Str and a free float.)

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

There is precedent for half-orcs having Strength (orc atavism) and half-elves having Charisma (kindred-raised). Plus, it does kinda match the flavor with which they're presented. I wouldn't mind seeing this, rather than the same bonus humans receive. ^_^


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For people complaining about weapon damage: proportional strength is a thing.

Claudio Stroe, a child bodybuilder, can lift 4 times his body weight with ease, a feat adult bodybuilders struggle with greatly.

Now imagine a small race character with the same muscle definition. That character would be proportionally as strong as a body builder, and be able to wield a blade proportionally as heavy. An average 1-handed sword is 2.5 to 3 lbs., Arnold Schwarzenneger as Conan swung around a 8.5 lb. sword 1-handed. That's 1.7 times as heavy as a greatsword (a real life one).

So a small character with that kind of proportional strength would have no trouble wielding a sword that was heavy and long enough to deal comparable damage to a human's 3 lb. sword (it would probably weigh around 2 to 2.5 lbs though), as long as it had a properly sized grip.

It would probably be longer than arm's length (in humans, the optimum size for a 1-handed sword is about the length of the user's arm, and we know goblin dogslicers are arm's length if not longer, and those are equivalent to shortswords for them) and wider than an equivalent medium weapon, but that character would be able to swing it around just as easily as a human can a medium 1-handed sword.

Now imagine that small character has 18 STR and looks like this...


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Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:

For people complaining about weapon damage: proportional strength is a thing.

Claudio Stroe, a child bodybuilder, can lift 4 times his body weight with ease, a feat adult bodybuilders struggle with greatly.

Now imagine a small race character with the same muscle definition. That character would be proportionally as strong as a body builder, and be able to wield a blade proportionally as heavy. An average 1-handed sword is 2.5 to 3 lbs., Arnold Schwarzenneger as Conan swung around a 8.5 lb. sword 1-handed. That's 1.7 times as heavy as a greatsword (a real life one).

So a small character with that kind of proportional strength would have no trouble wielding a sword that was heavy and long enough to deal comparable damage to a human's 3 lb. sword (it would probably weigh around 2 to 2.5 lbs though), as long as it had a properly sized grip.

It would probably be longer than arm's length (in humans, the optimum size for a 1-handed sword is about the length of the user's arm, and we know goblin dogslicers are arm's length if not longer, and those are equivalent to shortswords for them) and wider than an equivalent medium weapon, but that character would be able to swing it around just as easily as a human can a medium 1-handed sword.

Now imagine that small character has 18 STR and looks like this...

So an intelligent, sword-wielding ant should easily cut a human in half because ants are very strong for their size.

Also, if the same ant can roar, that should be as terrifying as a lion's roar, because size doesn't matter for intimidation.

Things may be different in 2e, but in PF you usually had higher strength for larger creatures, and lower strength for smaller ones. There were also rules that modified strength and dexterity when changing size.
They made sense, IMO.

Liberty's Edge

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Megistone wrote:
Things may be different in 2e, but in PF you usually had higher strength for larger creatures, and lower strength for smaller ones. There were also rules that modified strength and dexterity when changing size.

Usually? Absolutely. And, indeed, that's true from what we've seen of PF2 as well. Of three Small Ancestries, two have Str penalties. That's actually a better ratio than in PF1 (it's slightly worse in the corebook given that there's a non Str-penalty Ancestry there at all...but that means little in the game as a whole).

I mean, yeah in PF1 Goblins had a Str penalty (along with Halflings, Gnomes, Kobolds, and Svirfneblin), but Wayangs, Monkey Goblins, Gathlain, Wyrwood, and Vine Leshys all lacked such a penalty, and Orang Pendak had a bonus. And all of them are Small. That's more Small races without a penalty than with one.

So...yeah, PF2 is already doing about as well as PF1 ever did on this issue.

And as for Intimidate, they haven't said whether Ancestry Size will play a role in that (a reciprocal bonus to Stealth and penalty to Intimidate is still possible). they might not do that, heck maybe even probably, but let's at least wait to find out.


Megistone wrote:
Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:

For people complaining about weapon damage: proportional strength is a thing.

Claudio Stroe, a child bodybuilder, can lift 4 times his body weight with ease, a feat adult bodybuilders struggle with greatly.

Now imagine a small race character with the same muscle definition. That character would be proportionally as strong as a body builder, and be able to wield a blade proportionally as heavy. An average 1-handed sword is 2.5 to 3 lbs., Arnold Schwarzenneger as Conan swung around a 8.5 lb. sword 1-handed. That's 1.7 times as heavy as a greatsword (a real life one).

So a small character with that kind of proportional strength would have no trouble wielding a sword that was heavy and long enough to deal comparable damage to a human's 3 lb. sword (it would probably weigh around 2 to 2.5 lbs though), as long as it had a properly sized grip.

It would probably be longer than arm's length (in humans, the optimum size for a 1-handed sword is about the length of the user's arm, and we know goblin dogslicers are arm's length if not longer, and those are equivalent to shortswords for them) and wider than an equivalent medium weapon, but that character would be able to swing it around just as easily as a human can a medium 1-handed sword.

Now imagine that small character has 18 STR and looks like this...

So an intelligent, sword-wielding ant should easily cut a human in half because ants are very strong for their size.

Also, if the same ant can roar, that should be as terrifying as a lion's roar, because size doesn't matter for intimidation.

Things may be different in 2e, but in PF you usually had higher strength for larger creatures, and lower strength for smaller ones. There were also rules that modified strength and...

Don't be silly, even the largest size sword an ant could wield is too small to be as deadly, but a small sized creature can wield swords that are heavier than medium shortswords. A 36 lb goblin should have no issue lifting a 3 lb sword 1 handed with the same ease a 137 lb human can.

What I'm saying is that a small logsword isn't just a medium logsword scaled to 1/2 size, a small creature can use a sword much heavier than that with ease.

Grand Lodge

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IMO, It would be much easier to have more diversity in ability score adjustments if we dropped the idea of only one per group (physical vs mental). Goblins feel more like +Dex/+Con/-Wis, halflings +Dex/+Cha/-Str, gnomes +Int/+Cha/-Str.


Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:
Megistone wrote:
Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:

For people complaining about weapon damage: proportional strength is a thing.

Claudio Stroe, a child bodybuilder, can lift 4 times his body weight with ease, a feat adult bodybuilders struggle with greatly.

Now imagine a small race character with the same muscle definition. That character would be proportionally as strong as a body builder, and be able to wield a blade proportionally as heavy. An average 1-handed sword is 2.5 to 3 lbs., Arnold Schwarzenneger as Conan swung around a 8.5 lb. sword 1-handed. That's 1.7 times as heavy as a greatsword (a real life one).

So a small character with that kind of proportional strength would have no trouble wielding a sword that was heavy and long enough to deal comparable damage to a human's 3 lb. sword (it would probably weigh around 2 to 2.5 lbs though), as long as it had a properly sized grip.

It would probably be longer than arm's length (in humans, the optimum size for a 1-handed sword is about the length of the user's arm, and we know goblin dogslicers are arm's length if not longer, and those are equivalent to shortswords for them) and wider than an equivalent medium weapon, but that character would be able to swing it around just as easily as a human can a medium 1-handed sword.

Now imagine that small character has 18 STR and looks like this...

So an intelligent, sword-wielding ant should easily cut a human in half because ants are very strong for their size.

Also, if the same ant can roar, that should be as terrifying as a lion's roar, because size doesn't matter for intimidation.

Things may be different in 2e, but in PF you usually had higher strength for larger creatures, and lower strength for smaller ones. There were also rules that

...

True, I was being silly. I used an exaggeration to prove the point that you cannot ignore size when dealing with weapon damage.

You may be right about small characters, but when do you draw the line? If you treat small creatures just like medium ones, I think it would be easier to just drop that distinction at all.
That said, I still think that a small character should do, on average, a bit less damage than a medium one.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Mbertorch wrote:
I know it's unlikely, but I would love if the devs weighed in on this...
If I remember correctly, there was a stage of PF1 beta where Jason had been considering giving halflings +2 Wisdom instead of Charisma to be more different than gnomes but it got changed due to passionate feedback in favor of Charisma, so there's certainly precedent for changing the ability adjustments due to feedback!

Thank you so much for responding! It means a lot to me, and I am grateful. And of course, there are more opinions than those on this messageboard out there in the world. Nonetheless, as I said, I am so, so grateful for the acknowledgement. I am very excited for PF2 (understatement), and that is why I'm so passionate about it. Again, thank you, Mark.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Card Game, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Berselius wrote:
What about if you want to play as a Halfling Arcanist or a Halfling Eagle Knight? Are their suggested Backgrounds for that? Not every Halfling is a roguish scoundrel after all.

I would be very surprised if backgrounds are mechanically tied to ancestries, the suggestions will probably be just that. You can play your Halfling Eagle Knight, they just won't be usual, so shouldn't be in the suggestions for the Ancestry. I expect the introduction or character creatino chapter to say something along the lines of "We have made suggestions of what a typical background of a member of an ancestry should be, but each character is different, and you should take the background that fits your character"


Mark Seifter wrote:
Mbertorch wrote:

I know it's unlikely, but I would love if the devs weighed in on this. Even a vague "the ancestries are designed with versatility in mind, so don't worry about starting ability scores," (which I wouldn't like, but is at least something) or an equally nondescript "the ancestries could possibly change even regarding something as fundamental as ability scores, based on feedback" (which is something like which I hope to hear).

I'm not expecting a "hey, yeah, we'll change it from Charisma for all three races to something different. Thanks."

Just information that such a change is indeed possible would be AMAZING.

If I remember correctly, there was a stage of PF1 beta where Jason had been considering giving halflings +2 Wisdom instead of Charisma to be more different than gnomes but it got changed due to passionate feedback in favor of Charisma, so there's certainly precedent for changing the ability adjustments due to feedback!

That’s great news!

As I wrote in another post, I think that we should have +Con/+Int Gnomes. It reflects so much their inquisitive and curious nature. Besides, that makes them natural wizards and alchemists which seem much more gnomish to me (but then again, my favorite gnome of all time is Jan Jansen from Baldurs Gate 2...)

As for Goblins, I see no reason why they can’t have the same attribute distribution that they already have in PF1, plus the floating +2. I’m referring to +4 dex, -2 str, -2 cha. That way they have a special niche as the ultimate dex race with the disadvantage of having less attributes overall. In a similar way, they would be as half orcs were in 3.0/3.5, where they were the only race to receive a strength bonus but had penalties to int and charisma.

As for halflings, I would imagine they could have cha or wis and bonus. As long as they are different from goblins l, I’m fine.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Kalindlara wrote:
There is precedent for half-orcs having Strength (orc atavism) and half-elves having Charisma (kindred-raised). Plus, it does kinda match the flavor with which they're presented. I wouldn't mind seeing this, rather than the same bonus humans receive. ^_^

I loved that half-orcs and half-elves had the same floating stat bonus that humans did. It allowed me to envision all sorts of half-orcs. My son’s main PFS character is Tusker Torelli, a soft-spoken and short half-orc investigator. Yeah, he’s strength-based for melee, but his primary stat was intelligence. Bret and I have the Blues Brothers, two delightful half-orcs with a lot of charisma.

I like that you can have half-orc rogues and half orc wizards.

I never want that to change.

Hmm

Shadow Lodge

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Add me to the group that suggests:
Goblins: +Dex +Int -Wis
Gnomes: +Con +Cha -Str
Halflings: +Dex +Wis -Str


Aldarc wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
If I remember correctly, there was a stage of PF1 beta where Jason had been considering giving halflings +2 Wisdom instead of Charisma to be more different than gnomes but it got changed due to passionate feedback in favor of Charisma, so there's certainly precedent for changing the ability adjustments due to feedback!
I hope so, because having all three small races having bonuses to Charisma is a little too much to bare. I would be on board with giving Halflings a bonus to Wisdom (resist the One Ring!) and Gnomes a bonus to Intelligence (illusionists!). Anything that made the small ancestries feel less "samey" in their stats. While the floating bonus can be placed anywhere, people aren't going to be getting their impression of the ancestries from floating numbers, but from the hardwired bonuses.

Of the three halflings make sense to have the boost to charisma. Goblins are kinda eyebrow raising for + charisma and gnomes are much more known for their intelligence than their charisma.

It is possible they may be hesitant to give +2dex +2 int though. Still charima seems to be tied to ability to use magic devices/potions more so maybe charisma does make sense to goblins and gnomes. Gnomes are always tinkering with magic stuff and goblins like eating and drinking ALL OF THE THINGS so being able to use lots of potions seems appropriate.

Liberty's Edge

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Goblins should be +2 dex + con.
Gnomes +2 con +2 int.
Halflings are fine.


Paladinosaur wrote:

Goblins should be +2 dex + con.

Gnomes +2 con +2 int.
Halflings are fine.

I disagree.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

There is actually a history of Goblins and Bards with Pathfinder, however. The second or third goblin type encountered during the raid on Sandpoint was a Goblin Chanter. Further, Goblins are known to be musically-inclined (if not pleasantly musically inclined) all the way back to The Hobbit with their song of 15 birds in 5 pine trees... and for that matter when dragging the Dwarves and Hobbit to Goblin Town. So I'd say there is merit to having Goblins gain the +2 to Charisma - it's not "looks" after all, and AD&D even tried to shift it away from physical looks when they introduced the Comeliness attribute which never really went anywhere.

And let's consider skills attributed to Charisma: Perform, Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy. Two of those are Goblinesque traits - Intimidate (trying to scare folk, especially when singing), and Bluff (you only see some of us, plenty more goblins hiding in wait to ambush you if you don't let us go, longshanks!). And let's face it, Perform is a bardic trait and the existence of Goblin bards is a part of Pathfinder lore. So...

Besides. I think Gnomes are far more curious and inquisitive (a sign of intelligence) than Goblins. Goblins are inventive, but I know a lot of folk don't like the idea of Goblins getting an Intelligence boost over that of Gnomes or Halflings. With Goblins it's more driven by necessity than anything else. And there's the floating +2 that could be added to Intelligence for Goblins in any event.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Mbertorch wrote:

I know it's unlikely, but I would love if the devs weighed in on this. Even a vague "the ancestries are designed with versatility in mind, so don't worry about starting ability scores," (which I wouldn't like, but is at least something) or an equally nondescript "the ancestries could possibly change even regarding something as fundamental as ability scores, based on feedback" (which is something like which I hope to hear).

I'm not expecting a "hey, yeah, we'll change it from Charisma for all three races to something different. Thanks."

Just information that such a change is indeed possible would be AMAZING.

If I remember correctly, there was a stage of PF1 beta where Jason had been considering giving halflings +2 Wisdom instead of Charisma to be more different than gnomes but it got changed due to passionate feedback in favor of Charisma, so there's certainly precedent for changing the ability adjustments due to feedback!

So, don't be shy.

Give Gomes a boost in Con and Int. Halflings can still have Dex and Cha. Goblins could have Dex and Wis.

I'd happy. :)


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Kalindlara wrote:
There is precedent for half-orcs having Strength (orc atavism) and half-elves having Charisma (kindred-raised).

I feel like the last thing we'd need is for Half-Elves to be the 4th Charisma boosting ancestry in the core rules, though.


Bruno Mares wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Mbertorch wrote:

I know it's unlikely, but I would love if the devs weighed in on this. Even a vague "the ancestries are designed with versatility in mind, so don't worry about starting ability scores," (which I wouldn't like, but is at least something) or an equally nondescript "the ancestries could possibly change even regarding something as fundamental as ability scores, based on feedback" (which is something like which I hope to hear).

I'm not expecting a "hey, yeah, we'll change it from Charisma for all three races to something different. Thanks."

Just information that such a change is indeed possible would be AMAZING.

If I remember correctly, there was a stage of PF1 beta where Jason had been considering giving halflings +2 Wisdom instead of Charisma to be more different than gnomes but it got changed due to passionate feedback in favor of Charisma, so there's certainly precedent for changing the ability adjustments due to feedback!

So, don't be shy.

Give Gomes a boost in Con and Int. Halflings can still have Dex and Cha. Goblins could have Dex and Wis.

I'd happy. :)

I'm kind of hoping you mistyped, and did not actually mean that goblins should get a wisdom bonus.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Whatever the logic behind attribute bonuses and penalties, it would be really nice to have some built-in differences between different ancestries. Giving all three small races a bonus to CHA runs against this principle.

I mean, regardless of which stats get a bonus, since you also get a floating bonus from ancestry, any stat can be boosted, with the exception of the stat which gets a penalty, the best you can do is bring it back on par. It'll always be down by two from another character concept which doesn't have the penalty. So mechanically speaking, the choice of the stats which get a bonus isn't that much of a difference. It's the stat which gets a penalty which really changes things, as far as the ultimate choice of class is concerned.

But still, the basic bonus stats for each ancestry makes an aesthetic difference, and bears on how we think about those specific races. So, along with the vast majority of folks posting to these boards, I'd really like to see the three small races get something different from one another in terms of stat boosts.

Silver Crusade

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Aldarc wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
If I remember correctly, there was a stage of PF1 beta where Jason had been considering giving halflings +2 Wisdom instead of Charisma to be more different than gnomes but it got changed due to passionate feedback in favor of Charisma, so there's certainly precedent for changing the ability adjustments due to feedback!
I hope so, because having all three small races having bonuses to Charisma is a little too much to bare. I would be on board with giving Halflings a bonus to Wisdom (resist the One Ring!) and Gnomes a bonus to Intelligence (illusionists!). Anything that made the small ancestries feel less "samey" in their stats. While the floating bonus can be placed anywhere, people aren't going to be getting their impression of the ancestries from floating numbers, but from the hardwired bonuses.

I would have a bit of a vested interest in Halflings getting +Wis/+Dex. As my favorite Pathfinder character is a Halfling Monk.

But, I mean. I'd be all for that.

Liberty's Edge

I don't know if it's been said here but haven't there been documented instances in Golarion of Halflings preferring to stay as Chelish slaves rather than go on to claim freedom? Like, that's part of Lem's backstory, right? And aren't most Halflings more content to settle in one place and go unnoticed, keeping their heads down? What about that suggests a Charisma boost? Individual Halflings, sure, that's something the floater can represent, but overall I gotta go with the folks calling for a Wis bonus instead of Cha.

Gnomes and Goblins I'm fine with having their stats as they are; Goblins are full of themselves to the point that they can literally see a friend die next to them and think that it won't happen to them. That's both Wis penalty and Cha bonus in a nutshell right there.

<insert rant about Goblins being core moved to another thread>

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Hmm wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
There is precedent for half-orcs having Strength (orc atavism) and half-elves having Charisma (kindred-raised). Plus, it does kinda match the flavor with which they're presented. I wouldn't mind seeing this, rather than the same bonus humans receive. ^_^

I loved that half-orcs and half-elves had the same floating stat bonus that humans did. It allowed me to envision all sorts of half-orcs. My son’s main PFS character is Tusker Torelli, a soft-spoken and short half-orc investigator. Yeah, he’s strength-based for melee, but his primary stat was intelligence. Bret and I have the Blues Brothers, two delightful half-orcs with a lot of charisma.

I like that you can have half-orc rogues and half orc wizards.

I never want that to change.

Hmm

I absolutely agree, and I apologize for giving you the wrong impression. I didn't make it clear at all in my previous post (which is on me), but my intention would be for them to get the listed stat plus the floating +2 that everyone appears to get. So half-orcs would get +2 Str/+2 any, and half-elves would get +2 Cha/+2 any. Hopefully that makes things clearer. ^_^

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
There is precedent for half-orcs having Strength (orc atavism) and half-elves having Charisma (kindred-raised).
I feel like the last thing we'd need is for Half-Elves to be the 4th Charisma boosting ancestry in the core rules, though.

A bit awkward, yes. I'm generally in favor of switching halflings' Cha bonus to Wis, though, so it would balance out a little better.


Megistone wrote:

True, I was being silly. I used an exaggeration to prove the point that you cannot ignore size when dealing with weapon damage.

You may be right about small characters, but when do you draw the line? If you treat small creatures just like medium ones, I think it would be easier to just drop that distinction at all.
That said, I still think that a small character should do, on average, a bit less damage than a medium one.

They probably WILL do a bit less damage on average. 2 of the 3 have a strength penalty, which means even if they go all out on STR they will still be lagging behind a medium sized race that goes all out on STR. Goblins are just unusually strong for their size, which seems fine for one species.

We don't know if 1.5 STR damage will be a thing in PF2, so we don't know if this will be a 1 or 2 point difference. But the damage dice for most small weapons is only 1 point on average anyway, until you get to greatswords when suddenly the math skews off. And since damage dice are going to matter more in PF2 thanks for how +1 weapons will work, the new power attack, and other changes, keeping the small sized damage dice would result in smaller creatures doing a LOT less damage, rather than a bit less damage.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
kaineblade83 wrote:

I don't know if it's been said here but haven't there been documented instances in Golarion of Halflings preferring to stay as Chelish slaves rather than go on to claim freedom? Like, that's part of Lem's backstory, right? And aren't most Halflings more content to settle in one place and go unnoticed, keeping their heads down? What about that suggests a Charisma boost? Individual Halflings, sure, that's something the floater can represent, but overall I gotta go with the folks calling for a Wis bonus instead of Cha.

Gnomes and Goblins I'm fine with having their stats as they are; Goblins are full of themselves to the point that they can literally see a friend die next to them and think that it won't happen to them. That's both Wis penalty and Cha bonus in a nutshell right there.

<insert rant about Goblins being core moved to another thread>

I'm with you on the Halfling part. That's the only stats I would find better changed. I feel like their Cha bonus is more an hold-back from 3.5 than anything. The Halfings from Golarion really feel like a Wis race.


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It's rather funny to watch all the opponents of the proposed ability boosts for the 3 small races not being able to agree on what other stats should get boosted instead. Clearly it's not as clear cut as some think it is.
And people can still get a +2 to the other stat they think is more "natural" for said ancestry, by using the floating boost.

Silver Crusade

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GentleGiant wrote:

It's rather funny to watch all the opponents of the proposed ability boosts for the 3 small races not being able to agree on what other stats should get boosted instead. Clearly it's not as clear cut as some think it is.

And people can still get a +2 to the other stat they think is more "natural" for said ancestry, by using the floating boost.

They still all agree that +2 to Cha is not the way to go. I agree that it shouldn't be +2 Cha to all small races too.

Sure, I can be a higher-wis or higher-int gnome or halfling, but they'll always be charismatic. All the small races will always be charismatic all the time.

Liberty's Edge

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Mbertorch wrote:
Paladinosaur wrote:

Goblins should be +2 dex + con.

Gnomes +2 con +2 int.
Halflings are fine.
I disagree.

What do you prefer?

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm interested in how Wisdom for halflings would affect how they are presented. I think it would be a very interesting shift to play with.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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My preference:

Halflings go to Dex/Wis
Gnomes stay with Con/Cha, with an option to play Con/Int Bleachlings
Goblins are fine at Dex/Cha


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

My preference:

Halflings go to Dex/Wis
Gnomes stay with Con/Cha, with an option to play Con/Int Bleachlings
Goblins are fine at Dex/Cha

Having reread some of the flavor of Golarion gnomes, yeah, having the split of Con/Cha for the super extrovert regular fey gnomes and Con/Int for the introvert shadowtouched / bleached gnomes seems fine.

I would still like gobs to be +Dex/+Con, but if they have to have a physical/mental, then /I guess/ Cha is okay. Strong force of personality if nothing else, and they are definitely too dumb and lacking in common sense to get Int or Wis.

Hopefully they shift Half Orc and Half Elf to heritage feats, then we can get Kobolds as +Int/+Cha (or another +Dex/+Cha I guess), and/or Ratfolk/Ysoki as +Dex/+Int or +Con/+Int, and/or Tengu as their usual +Dex/+Wis, and/or Orcs or Hobs as +Str/+Wis.


Paladinosaur wrote:
Mbertorch wrote:
Paladinosaur wrote:

Goblins should be +2 dex + con.

Gnomes +2 con +2 int.
Halflings are fine.
I disagree.
What do you prefer?

I think Halflings are often thought of as being sensible and surviving their sometimes harsh/unpleasant surroundings. I think this fits better with Wisdom. I'm not convinced they need Charisma as a bonus.

And if Goblins are to be playable, I almost think they need that Charisma boost! (Half-joking).

Gnomes? Honestly, I'd like the gnomes to become a little more fey-oriented and shift away from the tinker gnomes of WOW and D&D. So I'm fine with Charisma.


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Kalindlara wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
There is precedent for half-orcs having Strength (orc atavism) and half-elves having Charisma (kindred-raised).
I feel like the last thing we'd need is for Half-Elves to be the 4th Charisma boosting ancestry in the core rules, though.
A bit awkward, yes. I'm generally in favor of switching halflings' Cha bonus to Wis, though, so it would balance out a little better.

Could we perhaps argue: "Half-Elves, even those who were raised by other half-elves, combine an elf's perspective, patience, and penchant for abstraction with a human's passion, drive, and flexibility and as such tend to make excellent students" and let the half-elf inherit the Intelligence bonus from one of its parent-species?

Last thing we need is a 4th Dex ancestry or a 4th Cha ancestry, but a 2nd Intelligence option would be fine.

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