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Shadow Lodge

My party found her again in the Endless Forest, and convinced her to join them to restore the "good old days" before Elvanna declared martial law.

She's now a PC after the player's first character died to Nazhena.

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Corrik wrote:
Serum wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Quote:
And if they were "just" raw materials, there would be zero need for this sentence:
And if they weren't raw materials, and you couldn't craft with them, there would be zero need to use the term "raw materials". You would merely state an item's dissembled parts are worth half it's price. However, they are specifically called out as raw materials and then are given no specific rules to differentiate them from other raw materials.
Why does the final sentence exist? Why is it giving the reader special permission to do something that the reader is already allowed to do?
It's merely specifying that rebuilding the item works the same as crafting it, and that you can't merely put it back together. It is in no way granting special permission. Under your ruling why are they called out as raw materials if they do not count as raw materials?

Maybe to give the reader slightly more flavour on what they're selling, maybe to reinforce that the parts are still useful and can be reassembled to remake the item.

On the other hand, there's no need to talk about rebuilding the item at all if it can just be created from scratch using the same "raw materials" and the standard Crafting process. This is introducing new terminology for zero purpose.

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Corrik wrote:
Quote:
And if they were "just" raw materials, there would be zero need for this sentence:
And if they weren't raw materials, and you couldn't craft with them, there would be zero need to use the term "raw materials". You would merely state an item's dissembled parts are worth half it's price. However, they are specifically called out as raw materials and then are given no specific rules to differentiate them from other raw materials.

Why does the final sentence exist? Why is it giving the reader specific permission to do something that the reader is already allowed to do in general?

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Corrik wrote:
Quote:

No, it does not say that. It says "The item’s disassembled parts are worth half its Price in raw materials and can’t be reassembled unless you successfully reverse‑engineer the formula or acquire the formula another way."

Not "an item" or "any item", but the specific item you previously disassembled for the purpose of reverse-engineering its formula.

Again, the rule states the disassembled parts are raw materials. It does not state that the disassembled parts are worth half the items GP.

They are raw materials, therefor the rules for raw materials apply for them unless as specific rule calls out that they don't. Please point to the rule that states raw materials gained from disassembling parts works differently than other raw materials.

If the rules simply stated the disassembled parts are worth half the value of the item, you would be right. They don't.

And if they were "just" raw materials, there would be zero need for this sentence:

Quote:
Reassembling the item from the formula works just like Crafting it from scratch; you use the disassembled parts as the necessary raw materials.

If the reader has a formula and raw materials worth half the price of the item, just tell the reader to use standard crafting rules instead of this sentence that says similar but much more specific.

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It's a permissive system.

It does seem like the authors intended that these disassembled parts can either be reassembled by either reverse-engineering it or through a formula....OR, as a consolation prize, you can sell them, obstensibly so that someone can else can use them to make that same item (although once sold the PC generally doesn't care about what happens to them).

It's telling that the only place turning items into raw materials is mentioned is in the Reverse Engineering section and nowhere else.

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It's pretty awkward that disassembling into raw materials is only mentioned in the reverse-engineering section.

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It's kind of funny that the Balor expects to always be in a situation where it is favoured to win...When this is actually almost always the case for PCs.

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How about:
If you use two hands on a weapon, your hands can't do anything else that round.
If you spend an action that uses one hand, then you can't spend an action using two hands that round.

Cast a spell with one hand? Then you can't use that hand to also swing a weapon.

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If the proficiency feats were meant to be gating for archetypes, then they should have been released with the archetypes.

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Why did the Chelaxians decide to dump mine tailings on merfolk city?

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I've decided to give the Frost Giants in the Crone the fiendish template. Before Vsevolod secluded himself he sacrificed another centaur to turn the rest of them demonic. This gives the giants the darkvision that gives such an advantage and now they no longer need to rely on torches (and the boosted defenses don't hurt either).

Centaurs are getting a raw deal in this dungeon.

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Add more hero points. You still lose them all to stop yourself from dying, so the Charisma character is just encouraged to use them more frequently and on rolls that aren't life-or-death.

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Especially since NPC classes don't exist anymore (?).

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Flairs are slotless, but only because "occupies a hand" has never been considered a slot. They've obstensibly been balanced with a single one-handed weapon in mind.

The attack in Opportune Parry and Riposte is an immediate action.

Surprising Strategy is a level 11 feat for a prestige class that you're saying should be available to Swashbucklers at level 1. Chronicle of Legends was released this year. If it was meant to be available to swashbucklers, then it would be.

You can only do some combat maneuvers in place of attacks without abilities that allow you to do otherwise. Dirty trick is not one of these.

Waveblades are piercing or slashing, so you either get to use swashbuckler's finesse or Blade of Mercy+Enforcer, not both. You need a piercing and slashing weapon to utilize both. I think the broken back seax is the only weapon that does this, and it's an exotic one-handed 19-20/x2 weapon.

You keep coming up with reasons why certain abilities and items "should" work with your character (when they were written to not work in those ways). You've convinced your GM to let everything work the way you think it should, but I don't think it's Attacks of Opportunity in general that are the problem.

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Tangent101 wrote:
Okay. It's the first time I've had a druid in my group, so shapeshifting hasn't come into it before. Though given that the group would be pushing level 10 when they hit the Eon Pit, that once again raises the question on if an elemental-shaped Druid would age in the pit.

None of the elemental body spells give the ability to prevent the need to eat/drink/sleep, so the caster doesn't get those abilities. Elemental body III and IV explicitly give immunity to precision damage and critical hits. The spells do not change the caster's type or subtype.

Quote:
Given the group is likely to roleplay through encounters if possible, they will hopefully learn enough about the Pit ahead of time not to just rush right in. There's other methods of getting the Key - including summoning an Air Elemental to retrieve it.

Summons that they can communicate with are probably the easiest thing they can do to retrieve it.

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Tangent101 wrote:
Serum wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:
Here's a question. If a Druid shapeshifts into an Elemental, does the Druid suffer the aging effects of the Ebon Pit? After all, Elementals don't have biology or age.

Polymorph effects don't change type or subtype. The druid is essentially just wearing an elemental costume.

That is, yes, the druid still ages.

So then, does the Druid suffer from the effects of precision damage if a rogue sneak attacks them?

Because this is where it gets iffy.

Yes. Again, the immunity from precision damage is a function of the subtype, which Polymorph effects do not grant. See this stack exchange question. The elemental body spells (like all polymorph effects) only grant what they say they grant. It requires elemental body III (druid level 10) before the spell description changes and states that the caster gains immunity to precision damage.

Contrast with the Oracle revelation Energy Body from the Life Mystery, which does explicitly change subtype.

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Tangent101 wrote:
Here's a question. If a Druid shapeshifts into an Elemental, does the Druid suffer the aging effects of the Ebon Pit? After all, Elementals don't have biology or age.

Polymorph effects don't change type or subtype. The druid is essentially just wearing an elemental costume.

That is, yes, the druid still ages.

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I just realized that frost giants don't have darkvision, which is awkward in many places throughout Artrosa. Most rooms outside of the Maiden lack light sources, and the frost giants spread throughout the dungeon find themselves in those rooms without noting anywhere that they brought their own. They are blind in the Crone passages, and I had assumed that the rooms themselves are also under a permanent darkness effect unless specified otherwise. The largest example of this is E8, where two frost giants are guarding the entrance to the Eon Pit. They seem to be ... blind?

This leads me back to the PCs. How have you expected the PCs to traverse the Crone given the darkness effect (in the passages, at least)? Did you also assume that the rooms were under the darkness effect, or were the rooms just naturally dark?

Edit from earlier in the thread:

Robert G. McCreary wrote:
Passages means just the hallways; the rooms are naturally dark (unless the description specifically mentions a light source). The Eon Pit is naturally dark, like other chambers within the Crone.

Ah...so I guess the frost giants just need torches, although exploring the Crone will be awful for them.

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Tangent101 wrote:
Serum wrote:
If it doesn't benefit her to turn the world to a winter wonderland, then what is Rasputin going to say to convince her to do it?

Rasputin is incredibly charismatic. Don't forget, the RL version of the man basically charmed his way into the royal family through the force of his personality alone, and was convincing the royals to do things that he wanted them to.

That said, he probably played onto Elvanna's ego. First, he tells her about Baba Yaga's attempt to devour his essence and how this is what Baba Yaga has in store for Elvanna and her children. Second, he says that by working together, they can overthrow Baba Yaga and that they will be able to "share" Baba Yaga's power but only if certain things get done - a lot of death is needed to empower his magitech to strip away Baba Yaga's near-divinity. He may even express it as "intellectual curiosity" as to if it could be done. Finally, he points out "Baba Yaga could have frozen the entire world if she wanted... but she gave up." In short, by expanding winter across all of Golarion Elvanna is able to do what Baba Yaga "couldn't" do - freeze the entire world.

Also, it doesn't matter if it benefits her or not. What matters is this: does she believe it will benefit her? If so... if she drinks her brother's Koolaid, then that can explain what's going on here.

And again, Rasputin was a far far more interesting and intriguing antagonist for the group than Elvanna. All she is is an end-boss that you never actually run into until the end. Compare that to Karzoug in Runelords or other truly memorial villains... including Rasputin himself in Book 5 of RoW, who is a constant threat for the PCs.

The idea is decent, . I'm just throwing it questions to develop the idea.

How do the souls of people dying of cold, starvation, and war on Golarion get to Rasputin? Is he doing something similar on Earth?

Are you keeping Rasputin as an oracle or changing him to one of the psychic classes similar to the contest? I really want to switch him over, but the loss of miracle is pretty devastating. He relies on that spell quite a bit in setting up the events of Book 5.

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Anguish wrote:

With heal, I see pretty much the same logic; that spell removes the originally applied condition entirely, putting the creature into the same state as a creature who made the initial save. The condition is removed, and while the confusion spell's duration continues, the target of heal doesn't get re-confused for the same reason a creature making their initial save doesn't.

The calm emotions spell works different, explicitly only suppressing the condition.

How can you say that calm emotions explicitly suppresses the confused condition when it explicitly uses the word "removes", implying that it is handled differently from fear effects which are associated with the word "suppresses"? If they were supposed to be handled in the same way, there would be no need to use two different words.

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blahpers wrote:

Eh?

Heal wrote:
Heal enables you to channel positive energy into a creature to wipe away injury and afflictions. It immediately ends any and all of the following adverse conditions affecting the target: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, poisoned, sickened, and stunned. It also cures 10 hit points of damage per level of the caster, to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level.
Calm Emotions wrote:
This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, and also negates a bard's ability to inspire courage or a barbarian's rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell, condition, or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime.
Those are very different to me. The former "wipe[s] away"/"immediately ends" injury, afflictions, and conditions. The latter suppresses them. The confused condition is removed, but the spell affecting the creature is not--the last sentence states explicitly that once calm emotions wears off, the original spell comes back into effect.
Heal ends the confused condition, not the confusion spell. Calm emotions removes the confused condition. Suppressed conditions and spells take hold again after calm emotions ends. Suppressed is not the same as removed, otherwise the sentence would read:
Quote:
It also suppresses any fear effects and the confused condition from all targets.

There is zero reason for removed to be included in the sentence if it is supposed to be treated the same as suppressed.

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blahpers wrote:
Ehh, rereading the confusion spell, I think Cevah's right on this. The spell doesn't just make the target confused when it comes into effect; the confused condition is the effect of the spell, and the spell (not the condition) has a duration of 1 round per level. If you suppress the spell or the condition, the character is fine, but once neither is suppressed, the character is once again confused.

Then heal also does not do anything to deal with confusion. Both heal and calm emotions have the same wording when it comes to removing the confused condition.

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If it doesn't benefit her to turn the world to a winter wonderland, then what is Rasputin going to say to convince her to do it?

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No full attack. Travel on the disk isn't instant.

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LordKailas wrote:
Full Round Action: Casting a Spell wrote:
A spell that takes one round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

This is misquoted. You are quoting a section of text that refers to a spell that takes a full round to cast, which takes longer than a spell that takes a full round [b]action[/]. They both require a full-round action to cast, but one takes effect at the beginning of your next turn (eg enlarge person), and the other one takes effect immediately after your action is complete (eg sleep.

The upshot is that you quoted something that's irrelevant to how full-round actions work in general. Unless otherwise specified, a full-round action works exactly like any other action, and actions take effect at the end of the action.

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Lyoto Machida wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Lyoto Machida wrote:

I'd rule charisma affects physical appearance simply to dissuade the "beautiful woman who justifies low charisma by being a knob to everyone" character from showing up.

I don't want to play with that character and I don't want to run a game for that character. If you insist on being the beautiful jerkass, I will make you spend the charisma to do so.

Have you considered having an adult conversation about why you don't like to play with this type of character rather than being passive aggressive about it and reaching to tie game mechanics to your personal pet peeves
At the least, if a GM doesn't want a player playing that kind of character, it seems more sensible to ban it rather than introduce restrictions. If the player grudgingly accepts those restrictions, then both GM and player are unhappy, and that's worse than the original problem.

First off, I don't I'm twisting the rules since in the book it says charisma affects appearance.

Anyway, the thing that always happens (in my own experience admittedly) is once the player with the pretty character has charisma, that player doesn't feel the need to be a jerk to justify the avatar beauty and lack of charisma. They just start playing their character like they have, well, charisma.

Yes, I could just ban people from having excessively pretty avatars which always snuffs that archetype. But I guess I prefer trying work out a compromise rather than going for the sledgehammer approach.

Or, because they think that beauty is tied to Charisma, they think they have to be unbearable in order to keep their Charisma as low as they want it to be.

If you decouple Charisma from beauty completely, the player shouldn't feel like they have to pay for their beauty with an awful personality.

Shadow Lodge

When making Cha be useful outside of social situations, it would also be nice to let the other 5 stats be naturally useful in some way to social situations, or at least WIS and Int. Not such that they can replace Cha entirely, but in allowing characters with different stats to approach social encounters differently.

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Gloom wrote:

I think that there's a fundamental issue that people are glossing over here. Just because you're at a disadvantage in social situations doesn't mean that you shouldn't participate.

Maybe you made a bad impression to the local shopkeep and he's irritated at you. That sucks. Doesn't mean that he's not going to make a deal with you.

Attempting to gather information around town and not able to convince people to share what they know? That sucks but you can still go around town and listen in on conversations or just enjoy yourself and roleplay the attempt.

I'm not talking about characters that are stumbling over their words to the point that conversation is impossible here.

Just because someone can try to participate using the one stat (and related skills) they're allowed to participate with and fail doesn't mean that people have fun doing so.

When only one person needs to have the ability to do... essentially all of your examples, there is a great deal of inherent pressure to let the one character do everything in order to get the best results.

"Players will optimize the fun out of anything" and all that. This optimization is incredibly easy to come across.

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Gloom wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:
Gloom, I think the counterpoint some people are trying to make is that in many cases, because of how integral roleplaying is to the experience, punishing the roleplaying of the low-Charisma character ends up punishing the player in a way that other stats don't. Stat penalties should punish the character; they shouldn't make the game less fun for the player.

In what way do you think a punishment for the character isn't less fun for the player?

Having a low intelligence and few lore skills means that your character is unlikely to participate in research or lore checks.

Having a low constitution means you're going to be knocked out of a fight sooner with lower health, and you'll be more susceptible to fatigue, poison, and disease.

Having a low strength means you're going to be doing less melee and ranged damage, and you're going to be less athletic. You'll also not be able to lift or carry as much.

Having a low dexterity means you're more likely to be clumsy and less likely to evade something.

Having a low wisdom means you're more likely to be fooled and you're more susceptible to mind affecting magics.

All of those seem like in some way they're going to cause the game to be less fun for the player. That's why you're given a choice as to how you want to build your character.

If social scenarios are important to you as a player then you may want to have a higher charisma and invest in social skills. If you don't and you invest your potential in other areas then you'll be more likely to excel in those areas instead of social ones.

In general, five stats are used in combat and exploration activities. Variations in those five stats change how a character approaches those activities, but everyone still participates.

One stat governs social activities. Variations in that one stat changes how much a character gets to participate in the activity, period.

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Just because Ghoul 1 provided a cover bonus to AC to Ghoul 2 doesn't mean you damage Ghoul 1 if you miss Ghoul 2 due to the cover. Ghoul 1 has its own AC, and you're not specifically aiming at it. The arrow might have deflected obliquely off of Ghoul 1, or Ghoul 1's movement distracted you enough that you couldn't get a good shot.

If you replace Ghoul 1 with a monster with 40 AC, and you miss Ghoul 2, then you shouldn't automatically hit the monster. You could barely hit the monster if you were aiming at it, much less incidentally. If you add a Ghoul 3 in front of Ghoul 1, and you miss Ghoul 2, how do you decide which of the first two ghouls you hit? Etc.

The exceptions and rulings you'll be making if you go through with this is going to end up quite time consuming.

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Cover doesn't stack; only apply the strongest version.

Ghoul 2 only has a +4 bonus to AC against your attacks. No, you don't hit Ghoul 1 if you miss Ghoul 2 by 4 or less, just like you don't hit the fighter if you miss Ghoul 1.

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The consequence for failing a check by 4 or less is having to move without performing whatever you were trying to do. Generally that means moving forward at half speed or greater, possibly making an acute angle turn.

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I just hope the price scaling formula is more forgiving. When was the last time anyone paid for a 5th level pearl of power or page of spell knowledge?

Magic item DCs need to scale properly and affordably too. So many (especially mid-high level) cool items are wasted in PF1 because the DCs are calculated at the minimum.

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Aenigma wrote:
I'm also sad because it seems I can no longer add class levels to monsters because they are not designed like PC races and thus I cannot make an orc, an ogre, a troll, a serpentfolk, a dragon, or any other monstrous races as a PC(not that I have actually played them in a game, but still...).

This is more something that GMs do, anyway. Is it easy to add PC class levels to monsters in PF2?

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When I ran wild magic, I chose to have it happen In addition to the spell effects. That way the PCs' spells at least have the desired effect.

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Matthew Downie wrote:

Are you saying that "Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed" is in addition to the rule about Poor Visibility doubling the movement cost of squares? I.e., without the Acrobatics check or Blind-Fight feat you would effectively move at quarter speed?

(My feeling is, the people writing the rules were not consistent in their use of 'half speed' and 'double movement cost', since for most purposes they are the same thing.)

Yes, I am. A blind creature moves quarter the distance it would if it weren't blind. If it succeeds at the acrobatics check, then it moves half the distance.

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Even spell-like abilities don't ever have components.

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Squares costing double is the exact effect of hampered movement, which comes in a minimum of three flavours (obstacles, difficult terrain and poor visibility). You would be hard-pressed to argue against darkness being considered poor visibility, even with Blindfight. You can't make a five-foot step when the square you're trying to move into costs 10 feet of movement, effects like Nimble Moves notwithstanding. Blindfight canceling out the half-movment limitation doesn't remove the costs of moving around in those squares.

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Being forced to half movement isn't what prevents the 5ft. step, the squares costing double is.

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Either: make natural attacks into iteratives, or make a creature only allowed to have one natural attack that is primary.

Instead of creatures gaining natural armor as HD increases, give them a mix of natural and deflection, so that touch ACs scale. Lower the number of spells that require both a touch attack and a save.

Reflex, Fortitude, Will saves stay more in line with each other so the discrepancy isn't "auto-fail" vs "auto-pass" at higher levels.

Funnily enough, this was all done in PF2 (the results of not the method)!

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Considering Iobaria has zero human presence east of the forest line, I could see that the area immediately east of it could have minimal human presence as well.

I believe that the Dzveda Marches extend quite a bit east of Deeprun Crevasse.

Iobaria is the northwestern part of Casmaron.

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Tangent101 wrote:
Another thing is, use Hero Points. Further, allow the Hero Point ability to avoid dying to ONLY cost 1 Hero Point instead of 2 as is in the rules... as the players otherwise don't use Hero Points for things like boosting saving throws or rerolling natural 1s. In fact, I give my players one Temporary Hero Point every new game as well as the permanent Hero Points - this encourages their use and has kept me from fudging rolls (which two of the players hate).

I a considering just making "avoid dying" cost all of your current hero points (minimum 1). This encourages the players to spend hero points instead of stockpiling them for a rainy day, while still keeping the threshold low.

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Voss wrote:
I still don't understand how her legs sleeves work. Are they just stapled into her calf muscles, or what? I can't think of any way those wouldn't just slip down.

Maybe what look to be gaiters are actually knee-high boots and the yellow piece is ornamentation?

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Spoiler:
Let's see. We can assume that Radimir's been working with Rasputin for a while. Anastasia dies two years after Rasputin does, so there's not a timing issue there. Rasputin has 15 days to learn that Anastasia is killed, find her body instead of using her hair (a large task in its own right!), and restore it to a state where Radimir can cast raise dead (given that the prevailing theory is that her body was burnt with Alexei's). The body restoration could be done with something like restore corpse + dress corpse, both via limited wish, although that reduces the number of days Rasputin has to learn of and find Anastasia's body.

We have another issue: Two years earlier, Rasputin used miracle to create a simulacrum of himself to replace his dead body at the river (although using simulacrum in this way is taking some narrative license). Simulacrum is out of reach of limited wish even assuming Rasputin is working with Radimir at this point, so he will have to have a different way to create his fake body. Creating a corpse of Rasputin is surprisingly difficult: the only spell I could find is a DC 15 sculpt corpse, only available via limited wish, polymorph any object which isn't available to psychic casters and out of reach of limited wish, and potentially fabricate available to Anna, although I doubt she knows enough about human anatomy to create a body that can hold up to an autopsy. Rasputin will have to do this again to create a copy of Anastasia's body so that it can be found in 2007.

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I'm going to have to assume her braids are always just out of the camera shot, aren't I.

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Lanathar wrote:
Serum wrote:
Artofregicide wrote:
Serum wrote:
Reign of Winter is pretty easy to run. Books 3, 4,5 and 6 are all disconnected from each other, so there're no relationships or intrigue etc. to keep track of. The are no subsystems. However, I don't think books 3 and 4 are satisfying to run without (major) modifications.
Personally I really like the first part book 4. The second part could be really interesting if you run it as an intrigue instead of combat.
Could you expand on how you would run Book 4 part two as intrigue instead of combat, either in spoilers or PM? I am managing to do the majority of book 3 as intrigue, but am having trouble visualizing how that would work in book 4.

Book 3 as intrigue? How did you do that ?

From memory it was mostly a massive triple dungeon that unobservant players could easily get confused by...

book 3 RoW:
By setting the majority of the denizens to unfriendly/neutral instead of hostile. There are a bunch of rooms relating to the progression from maiden to crone (eg the stone rooms, the trap puzzle rooms), so I reflavored the dungeon as a place where women can go on pilgrimage, with the warden and a few of the denizens acting as guides. However, Caigreal's rebellion is currently in play when the PCs get there, so she's let Vvesevolod in with his minions and blamed it on Jadrenka, and she's convinced most of the occupants (via bribes, blackmail, seduction etc) to be unhelpful toward Jadrenka. Jadrenka still can't ask outsiders for help explicitly, so Caigreal's actions have put her in a major bind. With some room adjustment, and a much larger guard on the door to the Eon Pit, the PCs now will probably need to convince the denizens to help them to get through the guard and to Vsevolod, all while Caigreal's coven is working against them (Long duration coven spells are great: 24hr mind blank, 9hr veil, nightmare and more). Some room modifications include enlarging the room with the destroyed crone golem to a 120 radius and placing 5 frost giants and a frost giant skald 6 inside with obstacles, moving the crypt to the Crone, Vsevolod's staging area to the Mother and turning it into a large, vandalized library, the common room to the Maiden, adding secret doors between the Maiden and Mother stones to the Crone golem room and some other changes to links. I can share the new dungeon's line map if you're interested.
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You can use Spellcraft (as it is being cast) to identify a spell that doesn't have verbal or somatic components.

You can identify a spell that only has verbal (not visual) components, like command, but not if the career is behind a wall. You can identify psychic spells which has neither verbal or somatic (thought and emotion components are not explicitly visible), and you can identify spells that have Silent + Still or Intuitive + Logical metamagic applied.

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She looks so much better, especially her face. I just hope that her extremely long braids are still a part of her character, and that they just can't be seen because of the angle (Seoni 2.0 had them, at least!).

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Has anyone who tried out Iammars's Rasputin reconciled how

Spoiler:
Anastasia came to be in the prison camp, given that Rasputin no longer has the ability to cast miracle into resurrection?

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Stephen Ede wrote:

Spell Like and Supernatural abilities can't be identified by observation using Spellcraft.

Because they aren't spells, even if the end effect looks the same as a spell.

Quote:
A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally.
Quote:
Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors.
Nothing to observe. Concentrating to cast Charm Monster looks the same as concentrating to cast Prot from Evil.

This post is kind of on the nose, given the currently active thread discussing this very topic. Your statement implies that Spellcraft can't identify spells that don't have visible effects, as spell components aren't the spell you have to be able to see as it is being cast. It would be impossible to identify, as you say, charm person or protection from evil, regardless if it was a spell or spell-Like ability.

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