Big Beards and Pointy Ears

Pappy wrote:

This may have been stated already, but are ancestry backgrounds essentially an ancestral archetype? I hope to still see something akin to archetypes for the classes as well as this ancestral background feature. Archetypes have been fun.

Backgrounds in the Playtest Rulebook aren't directly tied to your race. The ones listed here are suggestions.

Thanks. More options are always welcome!

So do Elves get doubly screwed on their frailty?
It seems they get the least HP AND also a Con penalty.
I realize that we don't know exactly how HP are determined, but it seems overly harsh for a lot of concepts to have 2 penalties to HP.

I can already see a scene with my PC's trying to chase a squad of Nimble Elves through wooded terrain. With such a large gap in movement capability, it really will feel like the Elves are ghosts. Hitting, running, and fading back through terrain while the Humans and Dwarves flail through the brush. I look forward to seeing how they deal with the situation.

Russian Dwarf voice: Some elves think they can outrun me. Maybe. Maybe.

I'm a little concerned with Background too I like the idea in principle, but if there are to be mechanical effects, I hope the categories are broad enough to not straightjacket certain concepts as the 5e iteration sometimes felt like...

Pappy wrote:

Thanks. Sounds cool.

EDIT

I hope this is a net new feature, adding anothe

I think it's supposed to be a temporal/causal progression.

Like
- you were born a dwarf.
- you trained to be a blacksmith as soon as you could work the bellows
- then you were ordained (or w/e) as a Cleric of Torag

the first step being Ancestry, the second being Background, and the third being Class.

I like the concept. It formalizes something that I have been asking players to do as part of character background (for future roleplaying ideas and hooks that I can draw from).

So do Elves get doubly screwed on their frailty?

It seems they get the least HP AND also a Con penalty.
I realize that we don't know exactly how HP are determined, but it seems overly harsh for a lot of concepts to have 2 penalties to HP.

You can use your floating bonus to buff your Con.

So just to boil this down for clarity,

Ancestry is the general category for feats that relate to your characters biological capabilities based on Heritage and your characters cultural abilities based on upbringing.

Yes, that sounds right.

Is that correct? Can we confirm that a character of a certain Heritage can claim a different upbringing?

No. That's pure speculation at this point.

So do Elves get doubly screwed on their frailty?

It seems they get the least HP AND also a Con penalty.
I realize that we don't know exactly how HP are determined, but it seems overly harsh for a lot of concepts to have 2 penalties to HP.

Eh. The 6 HP is 2 HP down ever, not per level (it applies only at 1st, where it's added to the per level HP you get from Class every level including 1st). It's a drop in the bucket pretty rapidly, and they get a speed boost out of it, which is a more than fair trade. The Con penalty is an issue, but everyone gets more HP now so a bit less of one than it used to be. And you can always use your floating bonus on Con.

Looking forward to seeing the Alchemist on Monday, and I really like what I'm seeing today so far. This feels like what I was originally hoping for in the initial announcements of 4e D&D, so far.

So do Elves get doubly screwed on their frailty?

It seems they get the least HP AND also a Con penalty.
I realize that we don't know exactly how HP are determined, but it seems overly harsh for a lot of concepts to have 2 penalties to HP.

We actually do know how HP are determined, thanks to the leveling up blog. Your class gives you a fixed number of hit points as a base (the example was 8 for the cleric). So the biggest difference this should make will be for your starting HP. After that you should progress pretty similarly to everyone else of a similar class-HP type.

EDIT: beaten to the punch :D

Awesome art.

Also, Clan Dagger!

I thought this was a really awesome little thematic addition. I can already see having a dwarf adventurer who has lost his family or is attempting to restore his clan name holding onto that clan dagger as a prized heirloom. It can be a really cool bit of story and fluff to the character!

Desna's Avatar wrote:

Interesting to note that the term "ancestry" has not completely supplanted "race". The term "race" is still used multiple times:

"You get 10 Hit Points from your race—more than the other races and MUCH more than the elves!"

This could also simply reflect that even the designers themselves have trouble remembering to replace the term "race" with "ancestry" every single time.

That might be an oversight.

It may also be intentional as a way of letting people familiar with older terms keep up. After all, this is a preview post and not the actual playtest document.

Elves with the low Ancestry HP AND a con penalty. Ouch. At least HP rolls seem to fixed to max now (the leveling up blog post mentioned clerics get 8 HP at base) so a frontline elf martial won't be completely glass assuming martials keep get 10 HP per level

Desna's Avatar wrote:

Interesting to note that the term "ancestry" has not completely supplanted "race". The term "race" is still used multiple times:

"You get 10 Hit Points from your race—more than the other races and MUCH more than the elves!"

This could also simply reflect that even the designers themselves have trouble remembering to replace the term "race" with "ancestry" every single time.

Thanks for pointing that out. "Race" has been updated to "ancestry" in the few places it slipped through in the post.

Another thing I noticed (and it is very small) is that throughout the post there was repeated use of " instead of ' .. such as Elves" instead of Elves'. Just thought I'd point it out while mistakes are being edited.

Really nice! I love the flavor expressed in both these races and that the mechanics help bring out customization in the form of upbringing and ancestry.

YES! Demon Hatred on mah Elves!

For those worried about setting neutrality: You can keep the Heritage type feats, so only have to work on the cultural ones.

I like that elves have some demon fighting prioritized. It's such a key element of Pathfinder elves unique to Golarion.
But it's super easy to ignore if you're doing a homebrew setting where elves have no tie to demons.

I was looking forward to mixing a character's ancestry with heritage feats (Humans raised by Dwarves learning to hold their liquor w/ the Hardy heritage feat; or Gnomes raised by Elves w/ the Keen Hearing heritage feat). I guess that may very well be just one MORE disappointment.

I also am against having the base speed (or stride) of a race be an odd number. It really does muck things up when things like the Hampered or Slowed conditions come up.

That depends how these work. If it is a flat: Reduce speed by 5' or 10' then being odd or not is immaterial.

I like the similarities to Starfinder (racial hp) and certain bits about the Elf description really work for me, seems like my demonhunter elf is getting a reincarnation.

Is point buy going to be toned back a bit to compensate for the boatload of bonuses everyone is getting? I liked in 3.5 how (most) everyone came out even. Now we are getting a net +4.

I guess it's okay if it works out in game balance....

I really like the new art.

It's going to take me a long time to switch over to ancestry instead of race. 34 years of habit doesn't change quickly.

So elves can get a floating Trained skill? That they can change every day? That's super flighty. "Hey elf, can you pick this lock?" "*Sigh* No, picking locks is so yesterday. Today is about playing the flute."

Is point buy going to be toned back a bit to compensate for the boatload of bonuses everyone is getting? I liked in 3.5 how (most) everyone came out even. Now we are getting a net +4.

I guess it's okay if it works out in game balance....

I'm guessing it'll be like Starfinder, where you add your Bonuses first and then buy, with 18 being the limit.

That should curtail most stuff, but yeah it seems PCs will be more powerful overall. Which isn't a problem if the rest of the game adapts as well.

It's going to take me a long time to switch over to ancestry instead of race. 34 years of habit doesn't change quickly.

So elves can get a floating Trained skill? That they can change every day? That's super flighty. "Hey elf, can you pick this lock?" "*Sigh* No, picking locks is so yesterday. Today is about playing the flute."

"I don't know, let me sleep on it."

So...at the risk of being "that guy"...

This is just PF1 Races. You've added Hit Points, and then turned most of the other Racial Traits into either Heritage Feats or Ancestry Feats.

Big difference from where I see it is now your Race/Ancestry doesn't give you anything except size, base movement, hit points, attribute adjustments, special vision, and access to Ancestry/Heritage feats.

As opposed to in PF1 where Race gave size, base movement, attribute adjustments, special vision, and a whole bunch of assorted bonuses that you could eventually trade away for alternative racial traits once those were printed. But it still gave the impression "all elves can use a rapier", "all Dwarves hate orcs", etc. because you had to actively trade away the thing you didn't want rather than simply selecting the thing you did want.

Instead, now, to print options for "some elves are like this" instead of "alternative racial traits" we can just print new ancestry feats.

So are negative modifiers a thing of the past? I mean, I guess you could intentionally gimp yourself but seems like it will be a very rare occurrence.

It's going to take me a long time to switch over to ancestry instead of race. 34 years of habit doesn't change quickly.

So elves can get a floating Trained skill? That they can change every day? That's super flighty. "Hey elf, can you pick this lock?" "*Sigh* No, picking locks is so yesterday. Today is about playing the flute."

I suppose the big question is what the blog really means when it says "prepares for each day." That could mean "in the morning" or it could be more flexible on the timing, like preparing arcane spells. It would be really cool and most useful if you could hold onto that floating proficiency until you want it. It would be a bit more niche if you have to pick when you wake up, in which case you're probably not going to use it for something that it's important to not be without.

Ancestral Longevity feat reflects how some of their life experiences might fade from the forefront of their memory until they focus on them. This feat allows your elf to become trained in a skill of your choice when she prepares for each day.

That's a good way of getting around that bugbear.

Is point buy going to be toned back a bit to compensate for the boatload of bonuses everyone is getting? I liked in 3.5 how (most) everyone came out even. Now we are getting a net +4.

I guess it's okay if it works out in game balance....

Well, in the demo games, Kyra had Str 14, Dex 12, Wis 18, Cha 14 (Con and Int went unstated, but I'm guessing 10 from context). That's slightly above 20 point-buy in PF1, so it's not inflating hugely or anything.

Though, as others note, it's also not gonna work quite the same way. We don't know how it will work, but it's more likely to resemble Starfinder than PF1 structurally, and may not resemble either much.

Grovestrider wrote:

I also am against having the base speed (or stride) of a race be an odd number. It really does muck things up when things like the Hampered or Slowed conditions come up.

That depends how these work. If it is a flat: Reduce speed by 5' or 10' then being odd or not is immaterial.

From the playtest podcasts, slow is a condition that makes you lose actions on a turn, not a reduction in the amount that you can stride. Slow 1 makes you lose 1 action, slow 2 makes you lose 2 actions.

For difficult terrain, you're counting the amount of movement to enter each square. In PF1 it takes 15' of movement to enter a difficult square diagonally, and 10' to enter it non-diagonally*. If it stays the same, this means a character with 25' move in difficult terrain, can only move one square diagonally and one non-diagonally, or two squares non-diagonally.

Edit, oops, forgot to say: difficult terrain doesn't halve your movement speed, that's a shorthand way to think about what's happening. You can stride through one square of difficult terrain (10' or 15' as appropriate) and then spend the rest of your movement normally if you're in normal terrain.

* I really think there should be a word that means this, but all I can think of is orthogonally or perpendicularly, neither of which is quite right.

thflame wrote:

Is point buy going to be toned back a bit to compensate for the boatload of bonuses everyone is getting? I liked in 3.5 how (most) everyone came out even. Now we are getting a net +4.

I guess it's okay if it works out in game balance....

I'm guessing it'll be like Starfinder, where you add your Bonuses first and then buy, with 18 being the limit.

That should curtail most stuff, but yeah it seems PCs will be more powerful overall. Which isn't a problem if the rest of the game adapts as well.

I REALLY hope that isn't the case. I have a couple of characters that utilize having a 20 at level 1. These characters are going to be impossible to play in PF2 if that is the case.

I have a full orc fighter with a 22 in STR at level 1, offset by 6s in all mental stats (he's basically the Hulk, but as a gentle giant). I also have an elven swashbuckler with a 20 in DEX and a 6 in CON. He is really dodgy, but if he ever gets hit, he's in a lot of trouble.

I will second the proposition that dwarves should get a -2 Dexterity penalty rather than Charisma.

thflame wrote:

Is point buy going to be toned back a bit to compensate for the boatload of bonuses everyone is getting? I liked in 3.5 how (most) everyone came out even. Now we are getting a net +4.

I guess it's okay if it works out in game balance....

Well, in the demo games, Kyra had Str 14, Dex 12, Wis 18, Cha 14 (Con and Int went unstated, but I'm guessing 10 from context). That's slightly above 20 point-buy in PF1, so it's not inflating hugely or anything.

Though, as others note, it's also not gonna work quite the same way. We don't know how it will work, but it's more likely to resemble Starfinder than PF1 structurally, and may not resemble either much.

I pray to Asmodeus it's not like Starfinder, where the racials were meaningless. Specially floating points wouldn't do anything.

Misleading title, I see no beards.

* I really think there should be a word that means this, but all I can think of is orthogonally or perpendicularly, neither of which is quite right.

How about 'rookian movement' to borrow from a chess piece? ;)

Races get more ability points, and characters get more ability points every few levels, to make up for the Big Six mostly going away. Removing those items is one of their stated goals. So instead of having a bunch of belts and headbands, you just get more ability points overall.

Actually what might be interesting is if humans have one fixed and one floating stat... but the FIXED stat depends on their heritage. Thus an Ulfen might have +2 to Strength, Shoanti have a +2 to Constitution, Tian a +2 to Charisma, Mwangi a +2 to Dexterity, and so forth.

Re the heritage feats, that clarifies some questions about the verisimilitude of becoming "more dwarfy" just by leveling - you have to already have the relevant biological trait, then presumably focus and improve it through training. However, them being only available at 1st level does pretty much mean the "right" answer in most cases is to take a heritage feat as your 1st level ancestry feat, when maybe you would have really preferred to focus on cultural stuff. This is just further building my preference that races should start with more than one ancestry feat at 1st level to allow more customization.

Preach it. All of this Seems great other than the part where I have to choose between being hardy and knowing how to use a dang axe.

I'm happy with dwarves not having a DEX penalty. Though with the whole resonance thing going on with Charisma, that penalty to Charisma may seem a bit harsh.

Ever spend a lot of time underground? It's not for the particularly clumsy.

I will second the proposition that dwarves should get a -2 Dexterity penalty rather than Charisma.

I can see this though Dwarves tend to be gruff and somewhat unwelcoming to new comers. Great at parties if you're friends with them or get them drunk.

I actually don't have too much to say about this. Decent info, really don't see anything to really be fussy about though err....

Demons may haunt ancient elven lands, but you have plenty of time to plan their demise.

Elves' ancestry feats can help them fight demons

Demons usually don't set up shop in deep woods or elven lands. Dark Fey yeah but straight up demons?

What are you doing to the Elves in the lore and why am I reminded of the Shannara series?

Quote:

Elves' ancestry feats can help them fight demons

Demons usually don't set up shop in deep woods or elven lands. Dark Fey yeah but straight up demons?

What are you doing to the Elves in the lore and why am I reminded of the Shannara series?

Well there is that whole deal with Treerazer...

Aldarc wrote:

I will second the proposition that dwarves should get a -2 Dexterity penalty rather than Charisma.

I can see this though Dwarves tend to be gruff and somewhat unwelcoming to new comers. Great at parties if you're friends with them or get them drunk.

I actually don't have too much to say about this. Decent info, really don't see anything to really be fussy about though err....

Quote:

Demons may haunt ancient elven lands, but you have plenty of time to plan their demise.

Quote:

Elves' ancestry feats can help them fight demons

Demons usually don't set up shop in deep woods or elven lands. Dark Fey yeah but straight up demons?

What are you doing to the Elves in the lore and why am I reminded of the Shannara series?

On Golarion, the elves' ancestral home of Kyonin has been taken over by demons if I recall. Elves aren't that closely associated with the Fey, unless I've forgotten something.

Aldarc wrote:

I will second the proposition that dwarves should get a -2 Dexterity penalty rather than Charisma.

I can see this though Dwarves tend to be gruff and somewhat unwelcoming to new comers. Great at parties if you're friends with them or get them drunk.

I actually don't have too much to say about this. Decent info, really don't see anything to really be fussy about though err....

Quote:

Demons may haunt ancient elven lands, but you have plenty of time to plan their demise.

Quote:

Elves' ancestry feats can help them fight demons

Demons usually don't set up shop in deep woods or elven lands. Dark Fey yeah but straight up demons?

What are you doing to the Elves in the lore and why am I reminded of the Shannara series?

Actually, in Golarion the southern part of the Elvish kingdom was overrun by an exiled wannabe Demon Lord. The Elves actually returned to Golarion in force after their self-imposed exile for ten thousand years (since Starfall) because the nascent Demon Lord's forces were in danger of grabbing the Gate leading to the world where the elves had exiled themselves to.

So Elves hating demons? That's legit for Golarion.

Isnt there something about dorfs having magic resistance ancestry feat? Maybe the CHA hit isnt because dorfs are all grumpy, but because of their magic resistance they have more trouble interacting with magic.

It sounds like certain parts of 1st edition will be really easy to port over to the new edition. Based on what we're hearing of ancestry feats, it seems that most of the alternate racial traits found in the Advanced Race Guide can be turned into feats with very little work.

Another thing I like about the dwarves having a clan dagger from birth is that it does seem like a perfect weapon for any dwarf that's expecting trouble in their line of work to carry with them.

A lot of dwarvish fighting goes on in tunnels where you're in extremely close quarters. It's hard to carry a spear, and swinging a sword or an axe is very difficult...but the trusty clan dagger you carry everywhere is on hand to protect you even when you're chin-to-chin with tunnel monsters and your back is to the wall.

MerlinCross wrote:

Aldarc wrote:

I will second the proposition that dwarves should get a -2 Dexterity penalty rather than Charisma.

I can see this though Dwarves tend to be gruff and somewhat unwelcoming to new comers. Great at parties if you're friends with them or get them drunk.

I actually don't have too much to say about this. Decent info, really don't see anything to really be fussy about though err....

Quote:

Demons may haunt ancient elven lands, but you have plenty of time to plan their demise.

Quote:

Elves' ancestry feats can help them fight demons

Demons usually don't set up shop in deep woods or elven lands. Dark Fey yeah but straight up demons?

What are you doing to the Elves in the lore and why am I reminded of the Shannara series?

Actually, in Golarion the southern part of the Elvish kingdom was overrun by an exiled wannabe Demon Lord. The Elves actually returned to Golarion in force after their self-imposed exile for ten thousand years (since Starfall) because the nascent Demon Lord's forces were in danger of grabbing the Gate leading to the world where the elves had exiled themselves to.

So Elves hating demons? That's legit for Golarion.

Eh I wasn't saying it was a BAD thing. I'll admit, the lore of Golarion is a bit too...., vast? For me to get everything down. And most the games that featured Elves was Homebrew.

Which I do question how the Ancestry will work. If some of them are pretty specific to Golarion, I hope they aren't too hard to convert to homebrew settings.

Which race is better? Elves or Dwarves? D&Debate has the answer!

I do like the idea that not all dwarves are proficient with dwarven weapons, and other "racist" stereotypes that get heaped onto your characters. Now, we get to pick them.

I also think that we should get a few ancestry feats at level 1 to help customize our characters better, but I also think that ALL of our ancestry feats should be acquired at level 1.

Ancestry is part of your character's background. It makes no sense to just randomly become proficient with racial weapons because you gain experience, especially if others aren't allowed to do the same.

I'd like to see dwarves with a penalty to dextery. Dwarven clerics and Paladins are iconic.

It depends if they work the attribute boosts and initial caps like starfinder did. In starfinder you can't go over 18 in a stat at level 1 so the bonuses and negatives wound up not mattering a whole lot. Even the worst stat allotment is a minimal issue at level one and disappears by level 5.

Is there anyone else who's not a fan of "only at first level" feats? There are times when I want to incorporate a background feat or heritage feat into my character, but don't have enough feats to accomplish what I want.

I also like the idea of discovering yourself in such a manner that an ancestry feat only reveals itself at a later time.

I mean, I understand the rationale behind 1st-level-only, I just don't always like it. Perhaps it's my experiences with PF1, where taking a background feat that looked really cool just didn't help out much when I needed that other feat to be competent in combat.

And perhaps my issue could even be alleviated if we started the game with two (or more) ancestry feats right at the beginning.