Goblins!

Monday, April 2, 2018

Ever since the goblin song from page 12 of 2007's Pathfinder Adventure Path #1: Burnt Offerings, goblins have been a key part of what makes Pathfinder recognizable as Pathfinder. When we first started looking at what would become the ancestries in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, we knew that we wanted to add something to the mix, to broaden the horizon of what it meant to be a hero in Pathfinder. That naturally brought us to goblins.

The trick was finding a way to let you play a goblin who has the feel of a Pathfinder goblin, but who is also a little bit softer around the edges—a character who has a reason to work with a group of "longshanks," as opposed to trying to light them on fire at the first opportunity. Let's look at an excerpt from the goblin ancestry to find out a bit more.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

As a people, goblins have spent millennia feared, maligned, and even hunted—and sometimes for understandable reasons, as some rural goblin tribes still often direct cruelty, raiding, and mayhem toward wandering or vulnerable creatures. In recent decades, however, a new sort of hero has emerged from among these rough-and-tumble tribes. Such goblins bear the same oversized heads, pointed ears, red eyes, and jagged teeth of their crueler kin, but they have a noble or savvy streak that other goblins can't even imagine, let alone understand. These erstwhile heroes roam Golarion, often maintaining their distinctive cultural habits while spreading the enthusiasm, inscrutable quirkiness, love of puns and song, and unique mirth that mark goblin adventurers.

Despite breaking from their destructive past, goblin adventurers often subtly perpetuate some of the qualities that have been characteristics of the creatures for millennia. They tend to flock to strong leaders, and fiercely protect those companions who have protected them from physical harm or who offer a sympathetic ear and sage advice when they learn of the goblins' woes. Some goblins remain deeply fascinated with fire, or fearlessly devour meals that might turn others' stomachs. Others are inveterate tinkerers and view their companions' trash as components of gadgets yet to be made. Occasionally, fellow adventurers find these proclivities unsettling or odd, but more often than not goblins' friends consider these qualities endearing.

The entry in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook has plenty more to say on the topic, but that should give you a sense of where we are taking Pathfinder's favorite troublemakers.

In addition to the story behind the goblin, its ancestry entry has a lot of other information as well to help you make a goblin player character. It includes the base goblin ability boosts (Dexterity and Charisma), ability flaw (Wisdom), bonus Hit Points (6), base speed (25 feet), and starting languages (Common and Goblin), as well as the rules for darkvision (an ability that lets goblins see in the dark just as well as they can see in normal light). Those are just the basics—the rules shared by all goblins. Beyond that, your goblin's unique ancestry allows you to choose one ability score other than Dexterity or Charisma to receive a boost. Perhaps you have some hobgoblin blood and have an additional boost to Constitution, or you descend from a long line of goblin alchemists and have a boost to Intelligence. You could even gain a boost in Wisdom to negate your flaw!

Then you get into the goblin ancestry feats, which allow you to decide what type of goblin you want to play. Starting off, let's look at Burn It. This feat gives you a bonus to damage whenever you cast a fire spell or deal fire damage with an alchemical item. On top of that, it also increases any persistent fire damage you deal by 1. Goblins still love watching things burn.

Next up is one of my favorites, Junk Tinkerer. A goblin with this feat can craft ordinary items and weapons out of junk and scrap they can find almost anywhere. Sure, the items are of poor quality and break easily, but you will never be without a weapon if you have this feat.

We could not have goblins in the game without adding the Razor Teeth feat. This grants you an attack with your mouthful of razor-sharp teeth that deals 1d6 piercing damage. To be honest, the target of your attack should probably also attempt a Fortitude save against whatever you ate last night that is still stuck between your teeth, but we'll leave that for the GM to decide.

Finally, there is the appropriately named feat Very Sneaky. This lets you move 5 feet farther when you take an action to sneak (which normally lets you move at only half your normal speed) and potentially renders your target flat-footed against a follow-up strike!

There are plenty of other goblin feats for you to choose from, but that's all we have time for today. Come back on Friday when we'll look at some of the feats from the other ancestries in the game!

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Silver Crusade

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Aside from the above mentioned orphanages we have specific NPC writeups (Snapjack!) and the non-hostile tribes mentioned in GoG.

Liberty's Edge

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TheFinish wrote:
So...headcanon? And rather specific headcanon at that, considering all the ways Rise of the Runelords can go. I fail to see how that compares to all the already established populations in published cities.

It's only headcanon until they publish it. And they have to pin down some of how the APs went since they're updating the timeline to assume they occurred. So, less headcanon, more seculation about new edition canon, really.

Frankly, with Goblins a Core PC Ancestry now, I can't see them not doing this in regards to this specific lore bit, can you?

TheFinish wrote:
I also very much doubt every Goblin PC is going to come from Sandpoint's orphanage, but that's neither here nor there.

Well sure, but you asked for an example.

Grand Lodge

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Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:

I mean, do we really need an excuse? We really don’t.

Just sayin’.

Agreed.


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Envall wrote:
Corrik wrote:


Population demographics will change the population layout, as will personal PC choice. However in the average fantasy tavern, one would not be surprised to see a Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling, or Human. Goblins are on the list now. Maybe every tavern will suddenly have a token Goblin?
Dwarves, elves and half-orcs are still very rare. Core race in this case does not mean common place race. Your average tavern is still mostly full of men, maybe with a group of halflings in the corner.

In some human lands, sure. In other lands, not so much. Kyonin and Riddleport would have much different demographics for taverns. But for all but the most backwater taverns, travelers from the core races would not be uncommon. It would not be surprising to see a Dwarf blacksmith or a Half-Orc tending the bar. Every AP has at least one Gnome or Halfling serving drinks. You can't throw a stone without hitting an elf living on the outskirts of a human village. And now I suppose every small village will have a cute, goblin mascot trying to burn things down.

Silver Crusade

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You say that like it’s a bad thing.

Shadow Lodge

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Rysky wrote:
Aside from the above mentioned orphanages we have specific NPC writeups (Snapjack!) and the non-hostile tribes mentioned in GoG.

I believe Goblins #1 also had a wonderful little story "Prize Pupil" that counts.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Corrik wrote:
Envall wrote:
Corrik wrote:


Population demographics will change the population layout, as will personal PC choice. However in the average fantasy tavern, one would not be surprised to see a Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling, or Human. Goblins are on the list now. Maybe every tavern will suddenly have a token Goblin?
Dwarves, elves and half-orcs are still very rare. Core race in this case does not mean common place race. Your average tavern is still mostly full of men, maybe with a group of halflings in the corner.

In some human lands, sure. In other lands, not so much. Kyonin and Riddleport would have much different demographics for taverns. But for all but the most backwater taverns, travelers from the core races would not be uncommon. It would not be surprising to see a Dwarf blacksmith or a Half-Orc tending the bar. Every AP has at least one Gnome or Halfling serving drinks. You can't throw a stone without hitting an elf living on the outskirts of a human village. And now I suppose every small village will have a cute, goblin mascot trying to burn things down.

Different places having different demographics were some races are more or less common than others is not really a counter arguement for goblins shouldn't be core because they are uncommon. If you can shift the goalposts to say that any race is common if you just look in the right place, then you can do the same for goblins. Various Devil races should be core because if you go look in hell they are super common.

Grand Lodge

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TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".

If you read City of Strangers, you’ll find there are goblins in Kaer Maga, although they’re organized little street gangs that rule the Middens.

They are also full citizens in Whitethrone, where they are part of the overall society and do work. Granted, it’s an evil city, but they’re fully integrated. It’s a major part of the plot of Frostfur Captives where the player characters get questioned about the group of goblin witnesses that they’re escorting, because those goblins are citizens, and thus deserve to be treated fairly.

Hmm


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On the other side racial traits are now more or less called ancestry feats, I can live with that.

It was always bothersome telling every one, ok I'm a human but I have Heart of the Fields instead of X also I have Y instead of Z and so on.
This way is more streamlined I’ll be hyped to hear more how it work on Friday.


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I’m great with goblins as a Core PC race. Times change, players change, and Paizo has every right to move forward with their game.

PF2 looks to be so much fun. I'm loving listening to the Glass Cannon Podcast playtest and loving most of what I'm seeing coming out both in terms of mechanics and flavor. And, I’m not terribly worried about including goblins as a core PC race. But, IF goblins are going to be included, I have some concerns with the way the actual quoted text from the PF2 rulebook depicts goblins.

Jason Bulmahn’s Blog Post wrote:
As a people, goblins have spent millennia feared, maligned, and even hunted—and sometimes for understandable reasons, as some rural goblin tribes still often direct cruelty, raiding, and mayhem toward wandering or vulnerable creatures. In recent decades, however, a new sort of hero has emerged from among these rough-and-tumble tribes. Such goblins bear the same oversized heads, pointed ears, red eyes, and jagged teeth of their crueler kin, but they have a noble or savvy streak that other goblins can't even imagine, let alone understand.

Considering the vast conflicts that exist in America today between rural and urban populations, I have some concerns that a publisher based in America that (presumably) wants to market to both urban and rural customers would choose to draw the equation that:

2E’s Implied Statements Via the Goblin Ancestry wrote:
Rural = cruel, comfortable with raiding, engaged in mayhem

As for the implications that the 2E goblins have a “noble of savvy streak that other goblins can’t even imagine, let alone understand,” I’d like to reference an excellent set of Tweets by frequent Pathfinder freelance designer, Alexander Augunas. Herein he points out that:

Alex Augunas wrote:
the concept of civilized races versus savage races is, believe it or not, incredibly racist!

The concept of civilized portions of one “race” versus savage portions of that same “race” is (believe it or not) EXACTLY racist, in the real world. Because that is what racism literally is: one portion of a race, homo sapiens, deciding that another group of homo sapiens were somehow less.

Even if the “race” here is a purely fictional construction, the depiction sets up a dichotomy where the “civilized” “race” of goblins is somehow better than the “savage” race of goblins.

I’d prefer that we try and avoid statements that imply that the rural goblins are somehow incapable of engaging in “civilized” behavior and that the goblins that will end up being PCs are somehow “noble savages.”

Again, I’m all for including goblins in PF2. I’d just prefer that we stray away from some of the tropes that underpinned colonialism the world over (and that, ironically, now promote urban v. rural conflict in the U.S.). Please work on rewriting this entry such that it avoids these pitfalls.

Paizo is a good company and works hard on these initiatives. I doubt anyone on staff had a light bulb go on above their head and then said, "You know what will really make this 'goblins as a PC thing' really work? Let's bake 19th century racial theory into their descriptions to differentiate the PC goblins from the monster goblins!" But, that interpretation is pretty easily found in the text quoted. Paizo can and (I hope) will do better.

Liberty's Edge

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Quandary wrote:

Yeah, this whole thing smells like superficial poorly thought-out marketing-driven b@@$++%*, no offence.

Obviously, Paizo Goblins were recognizable part of Pathfinder/Golarion, but that doesn't imply they are PC race material, their schtick was in fact as far from PC race as you can get... So this choice actually undermines the Paizo Goblin concept which already existed, it was popular as something distinct from "Core PC race" not something anybody was clamoring for Core PC inclusion. If Paizo wanted to continue their tradition of "Goblin PC modules" (and include PC race statistics for Goblins in bestiary etc) I would totally support that, that WOULD BE continuation of Paizo's Goblin schtick. Making them a Core PC race is absolutely a very bad idea that drags down game and world IMHO.

If Paizo wanted to aim for "mass popularity" not sure why they didn't hold a poll for that, maybe even roping in brick and mortar stores. Whatever that would result in, I'm willing to bet it wouldn't have been Goblins as PCs.

I wrote previously how I felt Ratfolk would have been perfect choice: continuity with Starfinder, presence in various areas of Golarion (including other planets), alchemist inclination, overtly "non-human" (unlike dwarf/elf/halfling) yet undeniably capable to act cooperatively in society at large. Ratfolk had the makings of equally Paizo-distinctive RPG race, yet Paizo chose to destroy their iconic ANTI-PC dysfunctional Goblins in favor of making them a Core PC race. Pure and simply, ignoring the role and context of Goblins in world and what people liked them for, in favor of context-free "this is popular/recognizable, we will use it".

The only positive side I can see to this is there is still time for Paizo to change this decision.

gonna say, there is zero chance that paizo is going to change there mind about the goblin , maybe they might change up stats or feats, but there here to stay.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Corrik wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Envall wrote:
Corrik wrote:


Population demographics will change the population layout, as will personal PC choice. However in the average fantasy tavern, one would not be surprised to see a Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling, or Human. Goblins are on the list now. Maybe every tavern will suddenly have a token Goblin?
Dwarves, elves and half-orcs are still very rare. Core race in this case does not mean common place race. Your average tavern is still mostly full of men, maybe with a group of halflings in the corner.

In some human lands, sure. In other lands, not so much. Kyonin and Riddleport would have much different demographics for taverns. But for all but the most backwater taverns, travelers from the core races would not be uncommon. It would not be surprising to see a Dwarf blacksmith or a Half-Orc tending the bar. Every AP has at least one Gnome or Halfling serving drinks. You can't throw a stone without hitting an elf living on the outskirts of a human village. And now I suppose every small village will have a cute, goblin mascot trying to burn things down.

Different places having different demographics were some races are more or less common than others is not really a counter arguement for goblins shouldn't be core because they are uncommon. If you can shift the goalposts to say that any race is common if you just look in the right place, then you can do the same for goblins. Various Devil races should be core because if you go look in hell they are super common.

What goalpost have I shifted? My argument isn't that goblins are uncommon. My argument is that making them core makes them as likely to be in a tavern as any of the core races. Which is flat not true for current Golarion. So where are all of these goblins coming from if there are no major changes to the landscape or lore? Don't just throw s$~& out because you heard other people say it.

Native outsiders should 100% be...

But how likely any of the other core races is purely based on where that tavern is. Which is why you had to talk about specific places to make it likely for some core races to be in said tavern. Thus goblins don't have to be prevalent in all taverns, just as dwarves and elves aren't, but only in some where the location favours it. And there can be relatively minor changes in the lore that allow goblins to intergrate as freely as any other races with a history of conflict have. A decade is a long time and attitudes can change.

Grand Lodge

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So my Goblin bard needs to a tavern keeper and sell fire whisky!!!

And this is post #666 - Eeek! I’m in a naughty mood today.


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Quote:
But how likely any of the other core races is purely based on where that tavern is. Which is why you had to talk about specific places to make it likely for some core races to be in said tavern. Thus goblins don't have to be prevalent in all taverns, just as dwarves and elves aren't, but only in some where the location favours it. And there can be relatively minor changes in the lore that allow goblins to intergrate as freely as any other races with a history of conflict have. A decade is a long time and attitudes can change.

I didn't change the location to make it more likely for some races, I said the demographic of said tavern would change based on location. I said SEVERAL times that it would not be uncommon to see any of the core races in your average tavern. In fact, I defined being a member of a core race as being a common sight at your average tavern. Is an average tavern in Korvosa going to be filled with Half-Orcs? Unlikely. Is anyone going to look twice at a Half-Orc in an average tavern? Unlikely. This is now apparently true of goblins.

Liberty's Edge

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TheFinish wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
TheFinish wrote:

None of them are considered pests fit only for extermination in-setting. Unlike goblins.

And this blog does nothing to dispel that notion, so yeah. If You want to have a Goblin PC, you'll deal with the consequences.

My druid's dire rat gets along fine. I don't see a goblin as being any more difficult of a companion to the party.

As long as the consequences are fun, I'm pretty sure that's what the player signed up for.

Your druid's Dire Rat is...your druid's. It's a pet. Is a goblin PC going to be someone's pet? Someone's slave?

Dire rats are known as pests, sure, but they're animals. They aren't intelligent, malicious, arson-prone intelligent humanoids detested by basically everyone, and with good reason.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

By the by, any intelligent creature being considered a pest fit only for extermination is racism on the part societies unable to consider that intelligent creatures are able to make free-willed choices.

Maybe goblins wouldn’t have to raid and steal so much if anyone seriously considered trading with them? Especially since you can trade your junk and unwanted waste to goblins in exchange for the herbal and alchemical supplies abundant in the swamps, forests and caves they live.
I mean, no. Goblins of Golarion and the Advanced Race Guide basically go completely against this idea. Goblins are despised precisely because they're free-willed, intelligent creatures, and almost all the time they chose to be absolutely horrible.

and yet even know paizo has a few goblin npcs living in cities and not getting lynched,


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Hmm wrote:

So my Goblin bard needs to a tavern keeper and sell fire whisky!!!

And this is post #666 - Eeek! I’m in a naughty mood today.

Further proof that Goblins really are devilish creatures. Now there will be Goblin Ancestry choices that make them evil outsiders! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

*cough*

More seriously, I'm not going to pass judgement on this change until Return of the Runelords gets published and I bother to read the conclusion. As Paizo stated the paradigm shift in 2.0 will probably be some Ex Machina occurring in that final AP, I imagine it will go the route of Diablo II's ending, which resulted in:

Spoiler:
destroying the Worldstone that held the barriers between the planes of good and evil from the mortal realm, causing a major revision in the world's function


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jimthegray wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
TheFinish wrote:

None of them are considered pests fit only for extermination in-setting. Unlike goblins.

And this blog does nothing to dispel that notion, so yeah. If You want to have a Goblin PC, you'll deal with the consequences.

My druid's dire rat gets along fine. I don't see a goblin as being any more difficult of a companion to the party.

As long as the consequences are fun, I'm pretty sure that's what the player signed up for.

Your druid's Dire Rat is...your druid's. It's a pet. Is a goblin PC going to be someone's pet? Someone's slave?

Dire rats are known as pests, sure, but they're animals. They aren't intelligent, malicious, arson-prone intelligent humanoids detested by basically everyone, and with good reason.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

By the by, any intelligent creature being considered a pest fit only for extermination is racism on the part societies unable to consider that intelligent creatures are able to make free-willed choices.

Maybe goblins wouldn’t have to raid and steal so much if anyone seriously considered trading with them? Especially since you can trade your junk and unwanted waste to goblins in exchange for the herbal and alchemical supplies abundant in the swamps, forests and caves they live.
I mean, no. Goblins of Golarion and the Advanced Race Guide basically go completely against this idea. Goblins are despised precisely because they're free-willed, intelligent creatures, and almost all the time they chose to be absolutely horrible.

and yet even know paizo has a few goblin npcs living in cities and not getting lynched,

Which is quite far from them being a core race. Paizo has more than a few Trolls living in cities and not getting lynched.

Sovereign Court

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Corrik wrote:
Rysky wrote:
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
I say that like it's a massive change to the lore and landscape, which they claimed they wouldn't do. I say it like it's a cheap attempt to shove in a mascot without actually updating or improving the concept of the core race. I'm saying it's a lazy use of handwavium.

Your assumptions are largely unfounded. Yes, it is a change, but one that might be very well supported by the lore and understood as a natural evolution of the setting.

Goblins don't need to hang out in taverns to be adventurers. Not the main halls at least. They are skulking around the basements already.

Dark Archive

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Umm yeah cool story bro.. now when can we have Kobold PCs?


Corrik wrote:


In some human lands, sure. In other lands, not so much. Kyonin and Riddleport would have much different demographics for taverns. But for all but the most backwater taverns, travelers from the core races would not be uncommon. It would not be surprising to see a Dwarf blacksmith or a Half-Orc tending the bar. Every AP has at least one Gnome or Halfling serving drinks. You can't throw a stone without hitting an elf living on the outskirts of a human village. And now I suppose every small village will have a cute, goblin mascot trying to burn things down.

It is less "some human lands", because almost all of the world is in human hands. If you take an aggregate of all the demographics of the whole golarion and then take an average out of them, humans are going to massively outnumber all other races. This is what I meant when I said even all the other core races are rare.

Liberty's Edge

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Chaotic_Blues wrote:

Well, I suppose, there's some interesting info here on races in general. I can see why you included them, and it makes a kind of sense in Galorian.

I can't see allowing a race of homicidal psychopathic pyromaniacs as a PC option at my table. I just don't want to encourage my players to become murder hobos.

do your players lack the ability to roleplay ?

because this seems like your selling your players or perhaps your ability as a dm short.

playing a not evil goblin is not even what i would call a mild role playing challenge.


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Hmm wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".

If you read City of Strangers, you’ll find there are goblins in Kaer Maga, although they’re organized little street gangs that rule the Middens.

They are also full citizens in Whitethrone, where they are part of the overall society and do work. Granted, it’s an evil city, but they’re fully integrated. It’s a major part of the plot of Frostfur Captives where the player characters get questioned about the group of goblin witnesses that they’re escorting, because those goblins are citizens, and thus deserve to be treated fairly.

Hmm

Well, the Goblins in Kaer Maga are called out as being avoided by nearly everyone even though they're "slightly better behaved than their bretheren elsewhere" precisely because "goblins will be goblins". Which isn't so much integration as being toletared, but it is good enough for current purposes.

I honestly didn't know about Whitethrone (I don't own anything Irrisen related), but if it's an Evil city in Irrisen...well, I don't think anyone here doubted Goblins could live alongside Evil creatures. It was the Neutral and Good folk that raised eyebrows.

Of course, this is two very specific situations in two specific cities in Golarion. How this will somehow apply to every Goblin PC is anyone's guess.


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Envall wrote:
Corrik wrote:


In some human lands, sure. In other lands, not so much. Kyonin and Riddleport would have much different demographics for taverns. But for all but the most backwater taverns, travelers from the core races would not be uncommon. It would not be surprising to see a Dwarf blacksmith or a Half-Orc tending the bar. Every AP has at least one Gnome or Halfling serving drinks. You can't throw a stone without hitting an elf living on the outskirts of a human village. And now I suppose every small village will have a cute, goblin mascot trying to burn things down.
It is less "some human lands", because almost all of the world is in human hands. If you take an aggregate of all the demographics of the whole golarion and then take an average out of them, humans are going to massively outnumber all other races. This is what I meant when I said even all the other core races are rare.

And? My argument isn't that core races must make up a certain % of the population. My argument was that core races are not an uncommon sight at your average tavern. Which they aren't. A Dwarven bartender, Half-Orc bouncer, Half-Elf host, and Halfling wait staff aren't getting a lot of second looks in the vast majority of Inner Sea taverns. And in 2e, neither will Goblins.


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So suppose Goblins got their act together and proposed the following to a city-

- We will provide bins and you put junk in it you don't want.
- At night once a week, we will carry away junk and leave bin.
- We promise we will not hurt anybody, burn anything, or otherwise make a problem because that hurts our continued access to precious junk.

How many Golarion cities say "no" assuming the goblins make a reasonable case that they are not up to anything?


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

So suppose Goblins got their act together and proposed the following to a city-

- We will provide bins and you put junk in it you don't want.
- At night once a week, we will carry away junk and leave bin.
- We promise we will not hurt anybody, burn anything, or otherwise make a problem because that hurts our continued access to precious junk.

How many Golarion cities say "no" assuming the goblins make a reasonable case that they are not up to anything?

^ That sounds like a character concept to me!

Except promising not to burn anything might be a bit too much!

“Maybe we can have small bonfires? Little ones that won’t hurt anything? Only six to seven feet tall?” Even good goblins like setting things on fire — they just try and be more thoughtful about it.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

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Gregg Reece wrote:
Actually, via PFS we've had a long history of running across goblins that aren't bad. Several of them are established recurring characters.

I think the issue is that Burnt Offerings is such a great and iconic adventure that it's colored people's vision of goblins a decade later. Depending on what Pathfinder material you read, the information about more heroic goblins feels more like a natural progression from what has appeared in canon.

As to the idea that goblins would be killed on sight in civilized lands, even the Core Rulebook suggests otherwise:

Quote:
Most evil humanoids, however, are typically protected by the same laws that protect all the citizens of the city. Having an evil alignment is not a crime (except in some severely theocratic cities, perhaps, with the magical power to back up the law); only evil deeds are against the law.

Grand Lodge

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Exactly.

It is very possible that the goblins of 2e are the result of whole tribes of goblin orphans being raised in the churches of Sarenrae and Shelyn.

Sarenrae, because fire and Shelyn because oh, my, do the little goblins love to sing!

We’ve seen in an evolution in PFS of goblins who the society has had to work with. With a little direction, they can be great adventurers and helpful comrades.

I think the real test of all this will be the coming Playtest, where we’ll get to see masses of goblin characters in action. If they are awful, we can provide feedback. But I’m betting that goblins will make it through, because goblins are plucky and innovative survivors. We know from Starfinder that they made it into space, and learned to pilot ships.

They’re evolving, and so is our view of them.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".

There is Thornkeep, 19 goblins live on that town, they are considered as cheap help and also valued for their ability to keep the town free of rats.


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Charlie Brooks wrote:
Gregg Reece wrote:
Actually, via PFS we've had a long history of running across goblins that aren't bad. Several of them are established recurring characters.

I think the issue is that Burnt Offerings is such a great and iconic adventure that it's colored people's vision of goblins a decade later. Depending on what Pathfinder material you read, the information about more heroic goblins feels more like a natural progression from what has appeared in canon.

As to the idea that goblins would be killed on sight in civilized lands, even the Core Rulebook suggests otherwise:

Quote:
Most evil humanoids, however, are typically protected by the same laws that protect all the citizens of the city. Having an evil alignment is not a crime (except in some severely theocratic cities, perhaps, with the magical power to back up the law); only evil deeds are against the law.

Goblins are not citizens of most cities. They are pests that do nothing but start fires and eat babies. That clearly means that just because that random guy pinged Evil doesn't mean you can kill him. Even though pinging as Evil is like an 85% certainly that you have performed evil acts.

By this logic Trolls wouldn't be attacked on sight, which they certainly are in most locations.


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Twitchy Boom Boom wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

So suppose Goblins got their act together and proposed the following to a city-

- We will provide bins and you put junk in it you don't want.
- At night once a week, we will carry away junk and leave bin.
- We promise we will not hurt anybody, burn anything, or otherwise make a problem because that hurts our continued access to precious junk.

How many Golarion cities say "no" assuming the goblins make a reasonable case that they are not up to anything?

^ That sounds like a character concept to me!

Except promising not to burn anything might be a bit too much!

“Maybe we can have small bonfires? Little ones that won’t hurt anything? Only six to seven feet tall?” Even good goblins like setting things on fire — they just try and be more thoughtful about it.

Okay in negotiations it is agreed upon that the goblins may have one bonfire in a prescribed area outside of city limits in order to process junk. I feel like the goblins should be willing to make some concessions because they are getting junk for free and people are happy about it.


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Biztak wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".
There is Thornkeep, 19 goblins live on that town, they are considered as cheap help and also valued for their ability to keep the town free of rats.

Do you have more? A handful of NPCs and a group of non-murder monkey's is a great argument for them being a featured or uncommon race. It isn't much of one for them being core.


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Corrik wrote:
Biztak wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".
There is Thornkeep, 19 goblins live on that town, they are considered as cheap help and also valued for their ability to keep the town free of rats.
Do you have more? A handful of NPCs and a group of non-murder monkey's is a great argument for them being a featured or uncommon race. It isn't much of one for them being core.

Where can I find the list of requirements for races to be core?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Corrik wrote:
Biztak wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".
There is Thornkeep, 19 goblins live on that town, they are considered as cheap help and also valued for their ability to keep the town free of rats.
Do you have more? A handful of NPCs and a group of non-murder monkey's is a great argument for them being a featured or uncommon race. It isn't much of one for them being core.

Well, we’ve got three examples so far...

Also remember that goblins are short-lived, and cultures can evolve in a few short generations. Try the Playtest. It’s a chance to explore the concept without committing yourself.

Hmm


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

So suppose Goblins got their act together and proposed the following to a city-

- We will provide bins and you put junk in it you don't want.
- At night once a week, we will carry away junk and leave bin.
- We promise we will not hurt anybody, burn anything, or otherwise make a problem because that hurts our continued access to precious junk.

How many Golarion cities say "no" assuming the goblins make a reasonable case that they are not up to anything?

These goblins are fantastic and if a player wants a goblin character in my game, the Trashpicker tribe living outside the city is going to be the source of "our tame goblins.". Of course, they won't be 100% respectable, but they will be cautiously tolerated.


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Yeah, I love it too!

I’m imagining a bunch of Goblins singing the Oscar’s song, “I love trash!” I was going to filk it, but really, it’s perfect the way it is:

♫ Oh, I love trash!
Anything dirty or dingy or dusty
Anything ragged or rotten or rusty
Yes, I love trash ♫


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edduardco wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Biztak wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".
There is Thornkeep, 19 goblins live on that town, they are considered as cheap help and also valued for their ability to keep the town free of rats.
Do you have more? A handful of NPCs and a group of non-murder monkey's is a great argument for them being a featured or uncommon race. It isn't much of one for them being core.
Where can I find the list of requirements for races to be core?

Having the civilization level and societal presence approaching that of Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-elves, Half-Orcs, Haflings, and Humans. In the very least, be a somewhat common sight at your average tavern. None of which applies to Goblins. And won't apply without a large change to the lore, which Paizo claims they won't be doing.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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