Goblins!

Monday, April 2, 2018

Ever since the goblin song from page 12 of 2007's Pathfinder Adventure Path #1: Burnt Offerings, goblins have been a key part of what makes Pathfinder recognizable as Pathfinder. When we first started looking at what would become the ancestries in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, we knew that we wanted to add something to the mix, to broaden the horizon of what it meant to be a hero in Pathfinder. That naturally brought us to goblins.

The trick was finding a way to let you play a goblin who has the feel of a Pathfinder goblin, but who is also a little bit softer around the edges—a character who has a reason to work with a group of "longshanks," as opposed to trying to light them on fire at the first opportunity. Let's look at an excerpt from the goblin ancestry to find out a bit more.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

As a people, goblins have spent millennia feared, maligned, and even hunted—and sometimes for understandable reasons, as some rural goblin tribes still often direct cruelty, raiding, and mayhem toward wandering or vulnerable creatures. In recent decades, however, a new sort of hero has emerged from among these rough-and-tumble tribes. Such goblins bear the same oversized heads, pointed ears, red eyes, and jagged teeth of their crueler kin, but they have a noble or savvy streak that other goblins can't even imagine, let alone understand. These erstwhile heroes roam Golarion, often maintaining their distinctive cultural habits while spreading the enthusiasm, inscrutable quirkiness, love of puns and song, and unique mirth that mark goblin adventurers.

Despite breaking from their destructive past, goblin adventurers often subtly perpetuate some of the qualities that have been characteristics of the creatures for millennia. They tend to flock to strong leaders, and fiercely protect those companions who have protected them from physical harm or who offer a sympathetic ear and sage advice when they learn of the goblins' woes. Some goblins remain deeply fascinated with fire, or fearlessly devour meals that might turn others' stomachs. Others are inveterate tinkerers and view their companions' trash as components of gadgets yet to be made. Occasionally, fellow adventurers find these proclivities unsettling or odd, but more often than not goblins' friends consider these qualities endearing.

The entry in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook has plenty more to say on the topic, but that should give you a sense of where we are taking Pathfinder's favorite troublemakers.

In addition to the story behind the goblin, its ancestry entry has a lot of other information as well to help you make a goblin player character. It includes the base goblin ability boosts (Dexterity and Charisma), ability flaw (Wisdom), bonus Hit Points (6), base speed (25 feet), and starting languages (Common and Goblin), as well as the rules for darkvision (an ability that lets goblins see in the dark just as well as they can see in normal light). Those are just the basics—the rules shared by all goblins. Beyond that, your goblin's unique ancestry allows you to choose one ability score other than Dexterity or Charisma to receive a boost. Perhaps you have some hobgoblin blood and have an additional boost to Constitution, or you descend from a long line of goblin alchemists and have a boost to Intelligence. You could even gain a boost in Wisdom to negate your flaw!

Then you get into the goblin ancestry feats, which allow you to decide what type of goblin you want to play. Starting off, let's look at Burn It. This feat gives you a bonus to damage whenever you cast a fire spell or deal fire damage with an alchemical item. On top of that, it also increases any persistent fire damage you deal by 1. Goblins still love watching things burn.

Next up is one of my favorites, Junk Tinkerer. A goblin with this feat can craft ordinary items and weapons out of junk and scrap they can find almost anywhere. Sure, the items are of poor quality and break easily, but you will never be without a weapon if you have this feat.

We could not have goblins in the game without adding the Razor Teeth feat. This grants you an attack with your mouthful of razor-sharp teeth that deals 1d6 piercing damage. To be honest, the target of your attack should probably also attempt a Fortitude save against whatever you ate last night that is still stuck between your teeth, but we'll leave that for the GM to decide.

Finally, there is the appropriately named feat Very Sneaky. This lets you move 5 feet farther when you take an action to sneak (which normally lets you move at only half your normal speed) and potentially renders your target flat-footed against a follow-up strike!

There are plenty of other goblin feats for you to choose from, but that's all we have time for today. Come back on Friday when we'll look at some of the feats from the other ancestries in the game!

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Stone Dog wrote:
These goblins are fantastic and if a player wants a goblin character in my game, the Trashpicker tribe living outside the city is going to be the source of "our tame goblins.". Of course, they won't be 100% respectable, but they will be cautiously tolerated.

Well, the issue here is this:

As a core race, they are now an integral part of all aspects of life on Golarian. They are not fringe, they are not unique, there are going to have to be goblins living in every city, every major town, every nation in the world. And every GM is going to have to accept it, if they want to or not, because it is a core race.

You don't see anyone really being able to get away with "There are no half-orcs in my games" and having people just go "Meh, okay."

By putting it in the core book as a default option, it becomes a default option for everyone, everything, everywhere.

I'm fine with goblins being a PC race presented as an OPTION, what I have a problem with is them being a CORE race.

Just like how I had a HUGE problem with dragonborn being a core race in D&D. Honestly the DB are one of the reasons I've never gone back to D&D.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
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Hmm wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Biztak wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".
There is Thornkeep, 19 goblins live on that town, they are considered as cheap help and also valued for their ability to keep the town free of rats.
Do you have more? A handful of NPCs and a group of non-murder monkey's is a great argument for them being a featured or uncommon race. It isn't much of one for them being core.

Well, we’ve got three examples so far...

Also remember that goblins are short-lived, and cultures can evolve in a few short generations. Try the Playtest. It’s a chance to explore the concept without committing yourself.

Hmm

Kaer Maga, where they are pest avoided by even the other monstrous races. Whitethrone, where they are evil canon fodder and certainly not a civilized core race. Then we have Thornkeep, where there are 19 of them. Oh, and a few named NPCs.

Is this all it takes to be a core race? Merfolk have civilized populations centers all over. They aren't core. Aasimar have an entire nation in Tian Xia. They aren't core.

So why Goblins?


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Edymnion wrote:
Stone Dog wrote:
These goblins are fantastic and if a player wants a goblin character in my game, the Trashpicker tribe living outside the city is going to be the source of "our tame goblins.". Of course, they won't be 100% respectable, but they will be cautiously tolerated.

Well, the issue here is this:

As a core race, they are now an integral part of all aspects of life on Golarian. They are not fringe, they are not unique, there are going to have to be goblins living in every city, every major town, every nation in the world. And every GM is going to have to accept it, if they want to or not, because it is a core race.

You don't see anyone really being able to get away with "There are no half-orcs in my games" and having people just go "Meh, okay."

By putting it in the core book as a default option, it becomes a default option for everyone, everything, everywhere.

I'm fine with goblins being a PC race presented as an OPTION, what I have a problem with is them being a CORE race.

Just like how I had a HUGE problem with dragonborn being a core race in D&D. Honestly the DB are one of the reasons I've never gone back to D&D.

Well said. Goblins as an option are not a problem.


Corrik wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Biztak wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".
There is Thornkeep, 19 goblins live on that town, they are considered as cheap help and also valued for their ability to keep the town free of rats.
Do you have more? A handful of NPCs and a group of non-murder monkey's is a great argument for them being a featured or uncommon race. It isn't much of one for them being core.
Where can I find the list of requirements for races to be core?
Having the civilization level and societal presence approaching that of Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-elves, Half-Orcs, Haflings, and Humans. In the very least, be a somewhat common sight at your average tavern. None of which applies to Goblins. And won't apply without a large change to the lore, which Paizo claims they won't be doing.

Do you have something that can legitimize that claim? I was expecting something more official.

Second Seekers (Roheas)

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Hmm wrote:


They’re evolving, and so is our view of them.

*looks around thread*

Are you sure?


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Even if this IS a "patch" to the Golarion setting, having some freakish outcasts coming from a freakish race (if even that can be considered a "patch"), I'm for it. This is nowhere near the extinction levels of reboot that 4th Edition did to the Forgotten Realms with the Spellplague.

I think that this change is to stay and that Paizo is committed to it, and that ultimately it's part of defining it's identity in the market. I've never taken microeconomics, but I'm sure there's some jargon that's applicable here. Pathfinder, instead of being described to people new to the hobby as merely "D&D, but more complex," gets to be "D&D, but more roguish and freakish" and perhaps ultimately "Pathfinder."

The freakout over goblins being in the core book all looks to me like a tempest in a teacup. Whether PF2 succeeds or fails, it won't be the existence of goblins in the core book that makes it or breaks it (because, after all, GMs can simply houserule them out, and will have more license to do so if they are separated out as an "uncommon" adventurer race in the core book). The true test of the new edition will be whether it's fun at the table, for current fans and new ones. The existence of goblins in core won't make it or break it.


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Edymnion wrote:
You don't see anyone really being able to get away with "There are no half-orcs in my games" and having people just go "Meh, okay."

I have honestly run into "Humans aren't really appropriate for this campaign, so could you play something else instead?"


edduardco wrote:
Corrik wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Biztak wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".
There is Thornkeep, 19 goblins live on that town, they are considered as cheap help and also valued for their ability to keep the town free of rats.
Do you have more? A handful of NPCs and a group of non-murder monkey's is a great argument for them being a featured or uncommon race. It isn't much of one for them being core.
Where can I find the list of requirements for races to be core?
Having the civilization level and societal presence approaching that of Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-elves, Half-Orcs, Haflings, and Humans. In the very least, be a somewhat common sight at your average tavern. None of which applies to Goblins. And won't apply without a large change to the lore, which Paizo claims they won't be doing.

Do you have something that can legitimize that claim? I was expecting something more official.

One of the Tian Xia books listed similar reasons for their core race selection. Dragon Not at home to pull the text for you.


Goblin PCs tend to follow Sarenrae, as fire is part of their cultural identity and redemption is necessary for them to be appropriate in most places.

Goblins, even redeemed, still have an affinity for cutting things, and as a dexterous race which commonly is associated with rogues, are drawn to two-weapon fighting.

The holy weapon of Sarenrae is the scimitar, which would be a natural choice for a two-weapon fighting sarenite.

All I'm missing is the ranger part here


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Edymnion wrote:
Stone Dog wrote:
These goblins are fantastic and if a player wants a goblin character in my game, the Trashpicker tribe living outside the city is going to be the source of "our tame goblins.". Of course, they won't be 100% respectable, but they will be cautiously tolerated.

Well, the issue here is this:

As a core race, they are now an integral part of all aspects of life on Golarian. They are not fringe, they are not unique, there are going to have to be goblins living in every city, every major town, every nation in the world. And every GM is going to have to accept it, if they want to or not, because it is a core race.

You don't see anyone really being able to get away with "There are no half-orcs in my games" and having people just go "Meh, okay."

By putting it in the core book as a default option, it becomes a default option for everyone, everything, everywhere.

I'm fine with goblins being a PC race presented as an OPTION, what I have a problem with is them being a CORE race.

Just like how I had a HUGE problem with dragonborn being a core race in D&D. Honestly the DB are one of the reasons I've never gone back to D&D.

WOW, the inclusion of one race in core is enough reason to stop playing a game apparently


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Corrik wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Corrik wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Biztak wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".
There is Thornkeep, 19 goblins live on that town, they are considered as cheap help and also valued for their ability to keep the town free of rats.
Do you have more? A handful of NPCs and a group of non-murder monkey's is a great argument for them being a featured or uncommon race. It isn't much of one for them being core.
Where can I find the list of requirements for races to be core?
Having the civilization level and societal presence approaching that of Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-elves, Half-Orcs, Haflings, and Humans. In the very least, be a somewhat common sight at your average tavern. None of which applies to Goblins. And won't apply without a large change to the lore, which Paizo claims they won't be doing.

Do you have something that can legitimize that claim? I was expecting something more official.

One of the Tian Xia books listed similar reasons for their core race selection. Dragon Not at home to pull the text for you.

Why are you so invested in this? Being core doesn't mean any of what you said. Doesn't have to do with being a common sight, doesn't have anything to do with being good or having a society integrated in the setting.

The only thing that it means is that it will be playable from the start. Being core means nothing except for you apparently.
I don't like it either, so I'm not gonna play it. I don't have to advocate that it shoudn't be there.... Wtf...


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Quote:

Why are you so invested in this? Being core doesn't mean any of what you said. Doesn't have to do with being a common sight, doesn't have anything to do with being good or having a society integrated in the setting.

The only thing that it means is that it will be playable from the start. Being core means nothing except for you apparently.
I don't like it either, so I'm not gonna play it. I don't have to advocate that it shoudn't be there.... Wtf...

Then why does Tian Xia have a different group of core race? Shouldn't Half-Orcs still be core instead of Tengu?

Also, you are wrong that it doesn't matter.

Quote:
As a core race, they are now an integral part of all aspects of life on Golarian. They are not fringe, they are not unique, there are going to have to be goblins living in every city, every major town, every nation in the world. And every GM is going to have to accept it, if they want to or not, because it is a core race.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

An Origins comic for the goblin iconic would be illuminating.

Mona, please?


Corrik wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Biztak wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".
There is Thornkeep, 19 goblins live on that town, they are considered as cheap help and also valued for their ability to keep the town free of rats.
Do you have more? A handful of NPCs and a group of non-murder monkey's is a great argument for them being a featured or uncommon race. It isn't much of one for them being core.
Where can I find the list of requirements for races to be core?
Having the civilization level and societal presence approaching that of Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-elves, Half-Orcs, Haflings, and Humans. In the very least, be a somewhat common sight at your average tavern. None of which applies to Goblins. And won't apply without a large change to the lore, which Paizo claims they won't be doing.

Maybe this is why I'm becoming less and less opposed to goblins in PF2 the more I read. In my games in Golarion, taverns in larger cities/metropolitan areas often already have a few 'uncommon' races. A goblin here or there downing a double of pickle juice and whisky, a tiefling and an ifrit juggling fire with each other on stage, an orc skulking in the background nursing a pitcher of ale, all aren't inherently unusual except in areas that are specifically called out as anti-[uncommon race].


Lazaro wrote:
Dastis wrote:
I love goblins. Their so much fun. However their not core race material. Guess 2e wanted to copy 5e's core drow scandal.
Drow scandal?

When 5e announced core drow a lot of people posted against it similiar to this thread. While it doesn't have a formal name Drow Scandal seemed to fit best

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Edymnion wrote:


As a core race, they are now an integral part of all aspects of life on Golarian.

It's GOLARION. Figures that somebody so invested in the fate of the setting would get the spelling correctly ;-)


Paradozen wrote:
Corrik wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Biztak wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".
There is Thornkeep, 19 goblins live on that town, they are considered as cheap help and also valued for their ability to keep the town free of rats.
Do you have more? A handful of NPCs and a group of non-murder monkey's is a great argument for them being a featured or uncommon race. It isn't much of one for them being core.
Where can I find the list of requirements for races to be core?
Having the civilization level and societal presence approaching that of Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-elves, Half-Orcs, Haflings, and Humans. In the very least, be a somewhat common sight at your average tavern. None of which applies to Goblins. And won't apply without a large change to the lore, which Paizo claims they won't be doing.
Maybe this is why I'm becoming less and less opposed to goblins in PF2 the more I read. In my games in Golarion, taverns in larger cities/metropolitan areas often already have a few 'uncommon' races. A goblin here or there downing a double of pickle juice and whisky, a tiefling and an ifrit juggling fire with each other on stage, an orc skulking in the background nursing a pitcher of ale, all aren't inherently unusual except in areas that are specifically called out as anti-[uncommon race].

Sure, metropolitan areas will have more diversity. But that still leaves those races as "Uncommon". Uncommon in a city, rare outside of it.

Edymnion wrote:
As a core race, they are now an integral part of all aspects of life on Golarian. They are not fringe, they are not unique, there are going to have to be goblins living in every city, every major town, every nation in the world. And every GM is going to have to accept it, if they want to or not, because it is a core race.

Dark Archive

I've played in plenty of games from a variety of publishers where the GM has said no to "x" that is core be it class or race.

Elves exist you just can't play one.

It's up to each DM to decide what they will allow and what not, then it's up to eaach player to decide whether the provisions in that GMs social contract are acceptable. Nobody is making anyone roll a Goblin. They are saying hey you can play one. I want kobolds as a core am I throwing a fit and leaving game becaue they are not? Nope still here. I think the idea of playing "monstrous" races sounds cool as hell and I can't wait for more to integrate. All these books are doing is giving you a formula for pretend. Don't dump on someone else's fantasy.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I find it odd when people bring up a bunch of other races. "If Goblins could be core why not x." To which my answer is, sure x could be core. I wouldn't complain. As long as the ancestry is balanced and has a blurb that doesn't force them to play unheroically I am pro any ancestry getting the label of Core.


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Corrik wrote:
Quote:
As a core race, they are now an integral part of all aspects of life on Golarian. They are not fringe, they are not unique, there are going to have to be goblins living in every city, every major town, every nation in the world. And every GM is going to have to accept it, if they want to or not, because it is a core race.

Not everyone accepts that premise, you know


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BIG thumbs down for goblins as a core PC race and an even BIGGER thumbs down for +2 charisma.

From the original goblin post:
"They tend to flock to strong leaders" : this seems more consistent with low charisma.

[They have] "inscrutable quirkiness, love of puns" : meaning no one understands them and they think puns are funny... again does this support a charisma bonus?

A recent forum post on rogues and puns from Paizo

"Are you plagued by a friend and coworker who peppers his blogs with puns and ridiculous word plays, often dessert-based? Does it bother you so much that you fantasize about stabbing him in the back, but federal and local statutes (along with those pesky pangs of morality) stop you?"

seems to imply that pun making may not be an endearing, charisma generating habit.

Finally the reverse logic that goblins are so despised and hated that they now have an ancestral +2 charisma bonus just so they can survive, is the kind of crap I was hoping that PF2 would be editing out of the game.


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Kate Baker wrote:
Will goblin PCs be able to read? I’m really hoping to make a goblin wizard!

That's not hard. You just pretend that your goblin PC uses pictures instead of writing for spells. Who ever said that spells had to be written out?


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I have honestly run into "Humans aren't really appropriate for this campaign, so could you play something else instead?"

There are some fringe games [all one race, all Tian Xia, ect] and/or homebrew where this can happen but it's quite rare for a golorian game now: add to that the fact that golarion is meant to be 'infused' into the game now and he inference is that the base new pathfinder game assumes core availability.


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rasplundjr wrote:

I've played in plenty of games from a variety of publishers where the GM has said no to "x" that is core be it class or race.

Elves exist you just can't play one.

It's up to each DM to decide what they will allow and what not, then it's up to eaach player to decide whether the provisions in that GMs social contract are acceptable. Nobody is making anyone roll a Goblin. They are saying hey you can play one. I want kobolds as a core am I throwing a fit and leaving game becaue they are not? Nope still here. I think the idea of playing "monstrous" races sounds cool as hell and I can't wait for more to integrate. All these books are doing is giving you a formula for pretend. Don't dump on someone else's fantasy.

This is incorrect, Goblins were already a player option. The issue is that they are now core.

Edymnion wrote:
As a core race, they are now an integral part of all aspects of life on Golarian. They are not fringe, they are not unique, there are going to have to be goblins living in every city, every major town, every nation in the world. And every GM is going to have to accept it, if they want to or not, because it is a core race.


8 people marked this as a favorite.
Zuresh wrote:

Why are you so invested in this? Being core doesn't mean any of what you said. Doesn't have to do with being a common sight, doesn't have anything to do with being good or having a society integrated in the setting.

The only thing that it means is that it will be playable from the start. Being core means nothing except for you apparently.
I don't like it either, so I'm not gonna play it. I don't have to advocate that it shoudn't be there.... Wtf...

Actually being core does mean 1 thing atleast to not say anything else.

Any featured and uncommon races DIRECTLY call out for GM approval, while core doesnt.

So by simply adding Goblin to core, they are assumed to be as normal in any PC creation as an elf or a human for example.


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My problem is that you have the goblins better than all the other core races. You are giving them a 12 point buy instead of a 10 point buy. I don't understand how the writers can even justify this. Look at the advanced races guide +4 DX, -2 ST, and -2 CH. This is another example of the Aasimars and Tieflings an overpowered race that if you had the book you would take the race.

As I put it in another post why would I play any other race but goblin with this advantage? Please give me a reason to play a Dwarf instead of a goblin. Background? please like that matters. Steady movement? Minor. The only other race that make sense to play is the Elf because of spell penetration.


Patrick Newcarry wrote:
Kate Baker wrote:
Will goblin PCs be able to read? I’m really hoping to make a goblin wizard!
That's not hard. You just pretend that your goblin PC uses pictures instead of writing for spells. Who ever said that spells had to be written out?

Hieroglyphics!


graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I have honestly run into "Humans aren't really appropriate for this campaign, so could you play something else instead?"
There are some fringe games [all one race, all Tian Xia, ect] and/or homebrew where this can happen but it's quite rare for a golorian game now: add to that the fact that golarion is meant to be 'infused' into the game now and he inference is that the base new pathfinder game assumes core availability.

What do we mean by Golarion games? Certainly APs and Modules assume that you can play nearly anything because you want those things to appeal to as wide an audience as possible (if you say "No gnomes" you might drive off those hardcore gnome fans). But anybody can run a game in Golarion and say "there aren't any [whatevers] in this place" or more likely "A [whatever] is inappropriate to the themes of this game".

I don't see anything inherent to "core" that means "this option is always available."

Liberty's Edge

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Kringress wrote:

My problem is that you have the goblins better than all the other core races. You are giving them a 12 point buy instead of a 10 point buy. I don't understand how the writers can even justify this. Look at the advanced races guide +4 DX, -2 ST, and -2 CH. This is another example of the Aasimars and Tieflings an overpowered race that if you had the book you would take the race.

As I put it in another post why would I play any other race but goblin with this advantage? Please give me a reason to play a Dwarf instead of a goblin. Background? please like that matters. Steady movement? Minor. The only other race that make sense to play is the Elf because of spell penetration.

What are you basing this on? The above post lists what goblins get...but its a new edition, I'd assume all other core races get equivalent stat mods. Why would you assume otherwise?

Second Seekers (Roheas)

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Yup "Core Player Race" is really like 80% of the issue here.

Were it not for this aspect, I dont think this would be 1/10th as controversial


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I'm on the fence. One hand it's interesting and a big change. I've wanted to play a Goblin for a little while. And due to some other games that have used them, I'm open to the idea of Goblins.

One the other, Paizo seemed to really push a certain view of just what "our" goblins are to make them different. And now PC goblins aren't that at all, but they totally still are because those are the parts people like but also still the parts that make them annoying? Eh?

Yeah I have to say this seems more for marketing and a "Our Game is different" claim. Should Goblin be an option, yes. But no other race being core would generate the amount of buzz that Goblins would.

And to all those that have said "We've played goblins well so it's okay." Well that's great for you. Myself I await with popcorn for the horror stories to come from not just the usual problem players but newer players who have the excuse of "What do you mean I shouldn't play them like this?".


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Edymnion wrote:

Well, the issue here is this:

As a core race, they are now an integral part of all aspects of life on Golarian. They are not fringe, they are not unique, there are going to have to be goblins living in every city, every major town, every nation in the world. And every GM is going to have to accept it, if they want to or not, because it is a core race.

...

Just like how I had a HUGE problem with dragonborn being a core race in D&D. Honestly the DB are one of the reasons I've never gone back to D&D.

I'm very curious what you base this off. Nothing I've read so far from any official source, Paizo or otherwise, defines core playable races as being integral to the setting in the way you describe by default. You mention 5E, as though this is what happened with 5E, but it... really doesn't seem like it did. I've read through three of the official modules and am playing in a fourth, so I can't say that I know all, but in all of that, I came across maybe two Dragonborn NPCs, with zero mention of them in any of the cities as though they have significant populations. The same goes for Tieflings and Drow.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I have honestly run into "Humans aren't really appropriate for this campaign, so could you play something else instead?"
There are some fringe games [all one race, all Tian Xia, ect] and/or homebrew where this can happen but it's quite rare for a golorian game now: add to that the fact that golarion is meant to be 'infused' into the game now and he inference is that the base new pathfinder game assumes core availability.

What do we mean by Golarion games? Certainly APs and Modules assume that you can play nearly anything because you want those things to appeal to as wide an audience as possible (if you say "No gnomes" you might drive off those hardcore gnome fans). But anybody can run a game in Golarion and say "there aren't any [whatevers] in this place" or more likely "A [whatever] is inappropriate to the themes of this game".

I don't see anything inherent to "core" that means "this option is always available."

No one is arguing that a DM can't run a 2e game in a different setting with different races. The issue is with games set in the base Golarion setting, notably APs.

It is 100% "the options that are always available". Core means these are the base options until the DM homebrews their game.

Scarab Sages

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Joining the chorus here. Goblins as a player race have no place in the CRB. Tieflings, Lizardfolk, even Kobolds would be better choices. #notMyGolarion

I wouldn’t mind seeing stats for Goblin PCs in the Bestiary, where they belong — along with other barely playable races that require DM approval.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Hey there all,

I have to admit, I am really disappointed with the tone of some of the posters in this thread and the way that some of you feel is appropriate to talk to fellow members of this community. I can understand that some do not agree with the decision to make goblins a core part of our game, and that disagreements can lead to passionate debate, but that is no excuse for this sort of behavior.

That said, I want to add a few notes to the discussion.

1. NO decision in this game is final. We have ordered art, its true, but that does not mean that anything is set in stone. We playtest because we want your feedback, we want your ideas, and yes, we want your criticism. Anyone who played through the Alpha and Beta of the first version knows that the comments made significant changes to the game... the fighter got reworked from the ground up, the skill system got replaced. We take playtesting very seriously and we will be incorporating the feedback the surveys and these boards when making our final decisions. This includes feedback on the goblin.

2. That said, these previews are just that. Previews. We are still in the process of finalizing the book right now (he says with the ancestry chapter open right now). We do not collecting data at this point to help inform our decisions. There will be a time for that once the playtest begins. This is not me trying to squash comments, I just want to manage expectations.

3. There is more to the shift in goblins that I can honestly talk about here. Some of it would be a spoiler for things that are still in the planning phases, making them way to premature to talk about. Even if I could, I would not want to ruin the reveals.

4. Finally, there have been a lot of comments here about more appropriate ancestries to add to the game, and from the perspective of what would make an easier player character addition, you are absolutely right. Goblins are a bit of a challenge, but of all the creatures in the game, there is none that is more iconic to our world, our game, than they are. This is not a marketing ploy (I know, because I made the argument for their inclusion), this is us looking at the world that we have made and picking the thing that most exemplifies us. Giving it a lift in prominence is going to require some work, and some changes, but it is another step in making this game, this world, this amazing thing that all of you have helped us make, truly ours.

I get that not everyone will agree, but I hope that you can give us the chance to show you what we've got in store.

Hope that helps

Jason

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thank you, Jason.

I am looking forward to seeing the stories ahead — maybe in the next “We Be Goblins” module? Meanwhile, both Twitchy and myself have sung our say here, and will see you all in the next exciting Playtest blog thread.

Yours,
Hmm

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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My 2 cents to the overall thread...

To be blunt, I have always hated the Golarion goblins (and I mean specifically goblins as Paizo has envisioned them; I like the goblins in my homebrew just fine, go figure [though I wouldn't use them as a core race outside a very specific type of adventure]). I hate their looks, I hate their lore. I got sick of seeing them so much very early on in the Pathfinder era, as it were, and time has done absolutely nothing to endear me to them. (And "reforming" them doesn't really do anything for me either.)

So this obviously is a huge turnoff for me personally. It just means there's going to be more awful goblin art and more focus on goblin stories and more prevalence in NPC characters and the like in adventurers.

Does it mean I am going to avoid 2e for this reason? Of course not. I think the edition looks promising and I'll play it even with goblins as a core race (I won't be playing a goblin, but yay, I have choices). I'll even see how they work in the playtest out of curiosity.

Presuming my opinion does not change (and I don't think it's likely to), it may be more likely that I avoid adventures or other splats that focus on goblins--and if there's a lot of goblin-focused stuff in the 2e line, it means I will buy less of it and subscribe to less of it than I did of 1st ed material. It may mean that while over time that while I was starting to play (and buy) more Golarion-based stuff I will go back to my homebrew setting in 2e (where I can more easily disallow them as a core race).

I recognize that a lot of people DO like the goblins (the Paizo staff for one group) and like their look and their lore, and that Paizo expects that the (probably minimal) loss of sales from people like me will be well washed out by increased sales from those fans. And I accept that they need to produce what they believe will sell well. And I hope it does sell well, even if it's not to my personal taste, because I think there's going to be enough other stuff I find awesome I want the product to succeed.

Appreciate the blog post as a heads up and as a general sense of how the races will work.


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Corrik wrote:
It is 100% "the options that are always available". Core means these are the base options until the DM homebrews their game.

I don't think that's true at all- there were plenty of things in the CRB in PF1 that weren't allowed in a whole lot of games in PF1 (the leadership feat, most of the problem spells, etc.) Or at least "Options in the CRB aren't any more the "base" options than anything in any other book that the group has agreed to use. It's just that a period of time will elapse in which the PF2 CRB is the only book available with player options.

Like if one were to set a game in Razmiran in which the PCs grew up there, it's likely the GM would say "no Clerics or Paladins" even those are in the CRB, and be justified in saying as much.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
What do we mean by Golarion games?

A game set in Golarion. What else would it be?

PossibleCabbage wrote:
I don't see anything inherent to "core" that means "this option is always available."

It's not listed in core but in the OTHER categories of races.

"Featured Races
While the seven core races are the primary focus of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, they're not the only ones suitable to be played as characters. Other, even stranger races help populate the world, and—with the GM's permission—also work well as player character races, creating fun and exciting new roleplaying opportunities."

"With your GM's permission, you can select any of the following uncommon races for your player character."

Everything other than core has an explicit "With your GM's permission", something core does not say: the implication is clear that core doesn't require such permission as it's assumed available.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
I get that not everyone will agree, but I hope that you can give us the chance to show you what we've got in store.

You've set a hard course for yourselves. But with that challenge, I see a lot of potential. I look forward to seeing what you've put together.

Silver Crusade

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One more thing to note about Goblins being a core race is that you'll be seeing more Goblin NPCs not just in Adventure Paths, but even in the NPC codices and just generally referenced more since they are a core race.

It's going to be harder to avoid.

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