Goblins!

Monday, April 2, 2018

Ever since the goblin song from page 12 of 2007's Pathfinder Adventure Path #1: Burnt Offerings, goblins have been a key part of what makes Pathfinder recognizable as Pathfinder. When we first started looking at what would become the ancestries in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, we knew that we wanted to add something to the mix, to broaden the horizon of what it meant to be a hero in Pathfinder. That naturally brought us to goblins.

The trick was finding a way to let you play a goblin who has the feel of a Pathfinder goblin, but who is also a little bit softer around the edges—a character who has a reason to work with a group of "longshanks," as opposed to trying to light them on fire at the first opportunity. Let's look at an excerpt from the goblin ancestry to find out a bit more.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

As a people, goblins have spent millennia feared, maligned, and even hunted—and sometimes for understandable reasons, as some rural goblin tribes still often direct cruelty, raiding, and mayhem toward wandering or vulnerable creatures. In recent decades, however, a new sort of hero has emerged from among these rough-and-tumble tribes. Such goblins bear the same oversized heads, pointed ears, red eyes, and jagged teeth of their crueler kin, but they have a noble or savvy streak that other goblins can't even imagine, let alone understand. These erstwhile heroes roam Golarion, often maintaining their distinctive cultural habits while spreading the enthusiasm, inscrutable quirkiness, love of puns and song, and unique mirth that mark goblin adventurers.

Despite breaking from their destructive past, goblin adventurers often subtly perpetuate some of the qualities that have been characteristics of the creatures for millennia. They tend to flock to strong leaders, and fiercely protect those companions who have protected them from physical harm or who offer a sympathetic ear and sage advice when they learn of the goblins' woes. Some goblins remain deeply fascinated with fire, or fearlessly devour meals that might turn others' stomachs. Others are inveterate tinkerers and view their companions' trash as components of gadgets yet to be made. Occasionally, fellow adventurers find these proclivities unsettling or odd, but more often than not goblins' friends consider these qualities endearing.

The entry in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook has plenty more to say on the topic, but that should give you a sense of where we are taking Pathfinder's favorite troublemakers.

In addition to the story behind the goblin, its ancestry entry has a lot of other information as well to help you make a goblin player character. It includes the base goblin ability boosts (Dexterity and Charisma), ability flaw (Wisdom), bonus Hit Points (6), base speed (25 feet), and starting languages (Common and Goblin), as well as the rules for darkvision (an ability that lets goblins see in the dark just as well as they can see in normal light). Those are just the basics—the rules shared by all goblins. Beyond that, your goblin's unique ancestry allows you to choose one ability score other than Dexterity or Charisma to receive a boost. Perhaps you have some hobgoblin blood and have an additional boost to Constitution, or you descend from a long line of goblin alchemists and have a boost to Intelligence. You could even gain a boost in Wisdom to negate your flaw!

Then you get into the goblin ancestry feats, which allow you to decide what type of goblin you want to play. Starting off, let's look at Burn It. This feat gives you a bonus to damage whenever you cast a fire spell or deal fire damage with an alchemical item. On top of that, it also increases any persistent fire damage you deal by 1. Goblins still love watching things burn.

Next up is one of my favorites, Junk Tinkerer. A goblin with this feat can craft ordinary items and weapons out of junk and scrap they can find almost anywhere. Sure, the items are of poor quality and break easily, but you will never be without a weapon if you have this feat.

We could not have goblins in the game without adding the Razor Teeth feat. This grants you an attack with your mouthful of razor-sharp teeth that deals 1d6 piercing damage. To be honest, the target of your attack should probably also attempt a Fortitude save against whatever you ate last night that is still stuck between your teeth, but we'll leave that for the GM to decide.

Finally, there is the appropriately named feat Very Sneaky. This lets you move 5 feet farther when you take an action to sneak (which normally lets you move at only half your normal speed) and potentially renders your target flat-footed against a follow-up strike!

There are plenty of other goblin feats for you to choose from, but that's all we have time for today. Come back on Friday when we'll look at some of the feats from the other ancestries in the game!

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Rysky wrote:
The Mad Comrade wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Aside from the catchy Goblin songs would someone point out where it is exactly that goblins have the reputation of eating babies?

Lemme see ...

That catchy song was the first introduction to the goblins of Golarion. It was marketed widely via snazzy t-shirts, blog-posted and IIRC at least 2 or 3 people recorded performances of the various goblin songs.

When a song gets that much play and promotion the tendency is for the reason behind the reputation to be considered true until proven otherwise... Rather pernicious, to be sure.

... so this is all based on a pop song?

Gob-pop is a thing. ;)


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GRuzom wrote:
Boost to Charisma ...?! for goblins?!?!

They’ve always been charismatic. Why else would We Be Goblins be such a popular module? They sing, they intimidate, they love to show off.

★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★

AFTER WE BE GOBLINS

After the battle with Vorka came to an end, Twitchy sat up in the Crow’s Nest of Vorka’s ship with Ronk. She put her head on his shoulder. “We did it, Ronk! We got Vorka, we got loot, we got this awesome pirate ship that doesn’t sail stupid places, but stays right here! But you know what the most important thing we got?”

Ronk scratches his head. “Ummm, we still alive?”

Twitchy hugs him. “Yes, and we gots each other! Forever!”

Nuzzling Twitchy’s face, Ronk mumbles into her ear. “Twitchy wants to keep Ronk?”

Twitchy looks into his eyes, and strokes his monster hat. “Always!”

Darting his face forward Ronk kisses Twitchy quickly. Pulling back he keeps his face inches from hers. “Ronk is keeping you forever!”

“Let’s go! Just the two of us... And Fluffer!”

His eyes widen at the idea of leaving the of leaving. “Where?”

Twitchy leaps on to Fluffer, and raises her voice to the sky.

TWITCHY:
I can show you the swamp
Stinking, dampish, exploded...
Just like all the bombs I loaded
For Vorka’s homicide!

We can travel the sky
Fluffer Buttkins, me and you!
There’s so much we can do
As we kill stuff side by side!

She offers a hand up to Ronk, inviting him to climb up in the saddle with her. Taking a deep breath Ronk throws himself on Fluffer’s behind Twitchy. Fluffer squawks and shakes his wings, but Twitchy pets the vulture's feathered ruff and he settles. Wrapping his arms around Twitchy’s waist, Ronk looks around as Fluffer takes flight. Having never been off the ground without being thrown Ronk’s face quickly contorts from concern at falling to glee at safely flying.

His arms feel nice around her. Leaning into each other they continue in song:

TWITCHY:
A whole new swamp...
Maybe other ecosystems too!
No chief to give us grief
What a relief!
Ronk, why are you screaming?

Ronks slams his mouth shut. Tightening his grip on Twitchy he starts to sing into her ear.

RONK:
A whole new swamp?
Somewhere we have never been
It will be just the three of us
There's no need to fuss
Together we will travel swamp to swamp

You’ll make all the bombs fall
Then I’ll smash things with feeling!
Twitchy, look at the stars the sky’s revealing!
So far from the safe and murky swamp

TWITCHY
A whole new Swamp
You better hold your nose!

RONK:
A hundred thousand things to smell!

TWITCHY:
Hold your breath it gets better!

RONK:
We are ready to face the world
See our future unfurled
We can’t go back to the stupid Licktoads!

TWITCHY:
A whole new Swamp

RONK:
Far away from this place

TWITCHY:
New dogs and horses to pursue

RONK:
Every moment gets weirder

BOTH:
We’ll chase them anywhere
There’s bombs to spare
Let me share this whole new swamp with you!

TWITCHY:
A whole new swamp

RONK:
A whole new swamp

TWITCHY:
That’s where we’ll be

RONK:
[nodding] That’s where we’ll be

TWITCHY:
New things to taste

RONK:
We’ll lay them to waste

BOTH:
Just you and me!

_______________________________________________
Source: “I can show you the world” from Aladdin

Dark Archive

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I think people are being to harsh on this change. I think adding goblin PCs into the game adds a bit of fresh air into the core rules. Not many like them but they can be successful and fun to play, just look at Nott on Critical Role for example. I think this will be good and it adds some more diversity to the roster.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I like the idea of Goblins as PCs, but I disagree with the idea that there needs to be a societal shift to make Goblins viable as PCs. Goblins as they are, are perfectly situated to be PCs, they live at the edge of human society so they have a front row seat to the comings and goings of adventurers and it is quite easy to imagine a goblin attaching or following one such group or even a group of goblins attempting to mimic them.

Goblin culture is violent and wicked and I believe that it should remain that way and that Goblin PCs should be the exception, though CE goblin PCs are still an option.


I can't say I really care one way or the other about goblins as core races. I don't really play golarion that much because I don't particularly care for the setting, but in a game that does I'd be fine with gms nixing PC goblins. It's your game after all.

What I am more concerned about is how stats are being handled. One of the things I disliked about the racial attributes is that it severely hindered some races and pigeonholed them into concepts, which is why stuff like human, aasimar, and tiefling were the most optimal races (seriously, if you played pfs back when tiefling and aasimar were allowed they and humans were basically filling the table. I hope the new way they're doing this fixes this otherwise we'll run into the same problem. Honestly I'd rather racial stat penalties be flat out abolished like in 5e or 13th age, but I doubt that will fly with the target audience.

The ancestry feat concept seems cool, but from reading I'm afraid that they might include trap options. That was also a real problem with race feats, and I'm cautiously optimistic that they'll fix it.


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Twitchy Boom Boom wrote:


After the battle with Vorka came to an end, Twitchy sat up in the Crow’s Nest of Vorka’s ship with Ronk. She put her head on his shoulder. “We did it, Ronk! We got Vorka, we got loot, we got this awesome pirate ship that doesn’t sail stupid places, but stays right here! But you know what the most important thing we got?”

Ronk scratches his head. “Ummm, we still alive?”

Twitchy hugs him. “Yes, and we gots each other! Forever!”

Nuzzling Twitchy’s face, Ronk mumbles into her ear. “Twitchy wants to keep Ronk?”

Twitchy looks into his eyes, and strokes his monster hat. “Always!”

Darting his face forward Ronk kisses Twitchy quickly. Pulling back he keeps his face inches from hers. “Ronk is keeping you forever!”

“Let’s go! Just the two of us... And Fluffer!”

*quietly dabbing eyes with a handkerchief*

Bigwort always cry this part. So beautiful.


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*marches back and forth with his placard*

In regards to all those supporting this addition—thus eliminating the goblin competition from pugwampis as "favorite troublemakers"— for whatever logical, emotional, visceral, personal, and/or hysterical reason: GO BROTHER!

In regards to everyone else:

*Blows raspberry* :P

RECOGNIZE THE TRUTH! GREMLINS AS THE TRUE LOVABLE SCAMPS OF PATHFINDER!


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Also charisma is often referred as the force of personality (the reason I believe will saves should be charisma based), and I have a hard time thinking of a playable race with more personality than a goblin.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Maps Subscriber
The Mad Comrade wrote:
Gob-pop is a thing. ;)

Whistles, innocently.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
pjrogers wrote:
Rysky wrote:
The Mad Comrade wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Aside from the catchy Goblin songs would someone point out where it is exactly that goblins have the reputation of eating babies?

Lemme see ...

That catchy song was the first introduction to the goblins of Golarion. It was marketed widely via snazzy t-shirts, blog-posted and IIRC at least 2 or 3 people recorded performances of the various goblin songs.

When a song gets that much play and promotion the tendency is for the reason behind the reputation to be considered true until proven otherwise... Rather pernicious, to be sure.

... so this is all based on a pop song?

Goblins are presented as having a non-literate culture. Songs are the most important way in which they communicate a sense of goblin identity and shared values. Almost universally, their songs are about torture, murder, the eating of other sentient creatures, etc.

This is not about "a pop song." This is about the very essence of how goblins have been almost universally presented in Paizo material until now.

It's also about how players have perceived and celebrated goblins, which is in someways even more troubling than the way in which goblins have been portrayed.

Yes, Goblin culture has for them been presented this way, but that's only of the cultures we've seen. There's plenty of cultures in the world. You take the Goblin outside of the culture and they don't act like that (Snapjack being a good example). It isn't a "Drizzt" thing, it's culture, different cultures produce different people.

We can't say universally their songs are about that because we've only seen a handful of songs, most from the same tribes? Goblins aren't innately evil.


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Green Eyed Liar wrote:

Smells a lot like gobbers and bogrin from Privateer Press' Iron Kingdoms.

Not sure I like it, but I am willing to wait until I have the product on my screen.

This is true, but note that Gobbers are essentially an entirely different race, both physically and culturally. They've adapted to live with humans, they're pretty cowardly, and they for the most part just want to be left alone. Bogrins are much more like actual Golarion Goblins, but bigger and more intelligent.

So if Goblin PCs in P2E came from....I don't know, lets call them Civilised Goblins, who've shed all the bad baggage of their cousins (lets call them Savage Goblins) and integrated, then fine. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening.

Also, to the rest of the thread, Goblins aren't the "Tinker Gnomes" of the setting. That's Ratfolk. You know, the race with the Intelligence bonus and racial affinity for crafting and clockwork?


Tallow wrote:

Main thing that I found interesting:

Speed is 25 feet. This seems to be something that could be wonky to deal with in several movement rules (unless those are all getting a major overhaul to not entirely work with speed.) Like Acrobatics for jumping, you typically get a +4 to the check for every 10 feet of speed over 30.

Additionally, having an odd number like this makes it irritating to divide by 2. Sure, its easy enough to say 10 because 12.5 rounds down to 10. But anytime you had to quarter 30 to 7.5 because of swimming or climbing, and then figure out whether that meant you could move 10 feet on a double move or 5 feet on a single but 15 feet on a double was annoying.

So I hope that if you are assigning some ancestries and monsters odd numbered movement speeds, that the system of halving or quartering speeds accommodates an easy way to calculate without having to worry about fractions rounding up or down or if you get to carry the fraction into a second action for movement to get that extra 5 feet or whatever.

It looks like short races are move speed 20 and goblins are just a bit faster than normal for a short race. In starfinder they also get the 5 feet extra base move. It does make it a bit more mathy but also there probably are a number of feats that boost speed anyway so some work is always going to have to be done.

Liberty's Edge

I believe it's already been revealed that humans have a 25 foot speed in this edition, so Goblins maintain their 'as fast as human' cred.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
We can't say universally their songs are about that because we've only seen a handful of songs, most from the same tribes? Goblins aren't innately evil.

Take a look at the Goblins of Golarion Player Companion. It describes a number of Goblin tribes and none of them are portrayed in a positive light or as deviating from the goblin norm.

Goblins may not be innately evil in the same way that evil outsiders are, but I'm pretty confident that 99% of all goblins have an evil alignment (at least until Paizo's apparent 180 degree turn with PF2e).


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I'm... cautious about this. The good part is it's unusual, it's different. I like unusual and different.

What I'm worried about is this basically being yet more incentive for some players to make unbelievably disruptive PCs. It has been my experience that groups are slow to show such players the door. It has also been my experience that in PFS play they won't be shown the door.

That's honestly the sole major point I have in objecting to this. If there's a way to deal with this one problem, then I'm basically okay with Goblin PCs.


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Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hate it.

But then, I hated it when half-orcs became core, so that ship has sailed.

To be clear, I don’t object to goblin PCs. I object to them as core. It implies that goblin PCs are common and they shouldn’t be.


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FedoraFerret wrote:
A part of me expects something of a revelation in either Return of the Runelords or the AP after it. Some big or small event which makes this all much more reasonable. Maybe it'll be the discovery of a hidden subspecies of goblin that aren't ridiculous murderhobos, a la WoW. Maybe some intrepid anthropologist will discern that the goblin tendency towards violent pyromaniacal homocide is a learned behavior, because no one bothered trying to teach them better.

Just as the original Rise of the Runelords bridged the gap between 3.5 and what would become Pathfinder, I could definitely see Return of the Runelords AP being the AP vehicle that will bridge the gap between PF1 and PF2. It would not surprise me if the nature of goblins (and their connection to Sandpoint) are revisited in this AP.

I personally don't get the love for tengu that some people harbor. I have probably received far more requests from players to play a goblin than either tengu or ratfolk, which seem to be the most common alternatives people have put forth for PC goblins. Hell, I too would be far more interested in playing a goblin than either of those races. I am excited for playable goblins in Core. (Would probably also love kobolds, but I can wait on that so long as they get a balanced PC deal.)

This blog entry provides one of our first looks at the ancestries. It's difficult to say how the +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, and +2 other stat (with a feat) would look in the grand scheme of the system.

I kinda like the Charisma bonus, though I also think that it would arguably be more fitting for kobolds and their penchant for draconic sorcery, but that is for another time. The fun of Charisma for goblins is that it is easy to imagine a singing goblin bard - one of the first goblins you would encounter in Sandpoint during Rise of the Runelords - a pyromaniac sorcerer, or a deceptive rogue. Charisma lends itself more readily to the sort of character concepts that I imagine would be run with goblins.

Silver Crusade

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pjrogers wrote:
Rysky wrote:
We can't say universally their songs are about that because we've only seen a handful of songs, most from the same tribes? Goblins aren't innately evil.

Take a look at the Goblins of Golarion Player Companion. It describes a number of Goblin tribes and none of them are portrayed in a positive light or as deviating from the goblin norm.

Goblins may not be innately evil in the same way that evil outsiders are, but I'm pretty confident that 99% of all goblins have an evil alignment (at least until Paizo's apparent 180 degree turn with PF2e).

Actually from what I'me reading of the tribes sections in GoG it doesn't really paint any of them as evil.


So I guess we can assume the basic chassis for ancestries is going to be two ability boosts, one mental other physical, one ability flaw, bonus hit points, base speed, and starting languages.

Seems like first level PCs and NPCs in general are going to have a lot more hit points at the beginning. And base speed sounds to me like speed could be increased, I have always though the speed should be affected by ability scores, if this is the case this will imply a more tactical combat were not everyone moves a 30ft per round only.

Liberty's Edge

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pjrogers wrote:
Rysky wrote:
We can't say universally their songs are about that because we've only seen a handful of songs, most from the same tribes? Goblins aren't innately evil.

Take a look at the Goblins of Golarion Player Companion. It describes a number of Goblin tribes and none of them are portrayed in a positive light or as deviating from the goblin norm.

Goblins may not be innately evil in the same way that evil outsiders are, but I'm pretty confident that 99% of all goblins have an evil alignment (at least until Paizo's apparent 180 degree turn with PF2e).

Even if 99% of tribes are Evil (and it could easily be more like 90%), that doesn't mean 99% of Goblins are. I mean, a N or CN person can pretty readily survive in Goblin culture by just being less murder-y (maybe they stay back and guard the camp rather than going on raids and don't torture people).

Also, see above for my theory on goblin orphans from RotRL just coming of age when PF2 comes out. That's a ready-made group of (likely, mostly) non-Evil goblins.

Silver Crusade

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
pjrogers wrote:
Rysky wrote:
We can't say universally their songs are about that because we've only seen a handful of songs, most from the same tribes? Goblins aren't innately evil.

Take a look at the Goblins of Golarion Player Companion. It describes a number of Goblin tribes and none of them are portrayed in a positive light or as deviating from the goblin norm.

Goblins may not be innately evil in the same way that evil outsiders are, but I'm pretty confident that 99% of all goblins have an evil alignment (at least until Paizo's apparent 180 degree turn with PF2e).

Even if 99% of tribes are Evil (and it could easily be more like 90%), that doesn't mean 99% of Goblins are. I mean, a N or CN person can pretty readily survive in Goblin culture by just being less murder-y (maybe they stay back and guard the camp rather than going on raids and don't torture people).

Also, see above for my theory on goblin orphans from RotRL just coming of age when PF2 comes out. That's a ready-made group of (likely, mostly) non-Evil goblins.

There's two in Mediogalti that seem actively evil, but also ones that ride dinosaurs!

The ones in the Shackles are pretty much all Pirates, but the Reefrunner tribe is noted as being less aggressive when plundering (unless they're in a bad mood), usually allowing sailors to flee.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
pjrogers wrote:
Rysky wrote:
We can't say universally their songs are about that because we've only seen a handful of songs, most from the same tribes? Goblins aren't innately evil.

Take a look at the Goblins of Golarion Player Companion. It describes a number of Goblin tribes and none of them are portrayed in a positive light or as deviating from the goblin norm.

Goblins may not be innately evil in the same way that evil outsiders are, but I'm pretty confident that 99% of all goblins have an evil alignment (at least until Paizo's apparent 180 degree turn with PF2e).

Actually from what I'me reading of the tribes sections in GoG it doesn't really paint any of them as evil.

All I can say is that you and I have a very, very different sense of what evil is. The most positive thing that can be said about any of the goblin tribes is that some are less dangerous because they are more cowardly and many are as much victims of more powerful evil races and groups as they are victimizers themselves.


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*goblin opens jar from his pack, removes and happily devours rancid, pickled cat ears and slugs*

Human party member: "Ah, isn't he just so cute?!!?"

Yeah... not really getting the flip on the CHA attribute.


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Gotta say, I didnt think gobo PCs would be the thing that blew up the playtest forums...


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Me like longshanks. Longshanks give me horse meat. Me help longshanks stop other gobbies from destroying town. Me see why longshanks dislike gobbies. Not all gobbies want to kill longshanks. Me want to show gobbies can be good.

Silver Crusade

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Rysky wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
pjrogers wrote:
Rysky wrote:
We can't say universally their songs are about that because we've only seen a handful of songs, most from the same tribes? Goblins aren't innately evil.

Take a look at the Goblins of Golarion Player Companion. It describes a number of Goblin tribes and none of them are portrayed in a positive light or as deviating from the goblin norm.

Goblins may not be innately evil in the same way that evil outsiders are, but I'm pretty confident that 99% of all goblins have an evil alignment (at least until Paizo's apparent 180 degree turn with PF2e).

Even if 99% of tribes are Evil (and it could easily be more like 90%), that doesn't mean 99% of Goblins are. I mean, a N or CN person can pretty readily survive in Goblin culture by just being less murder-y (maybe they stay back and guard the camp rather than going on raids and don't torture people).

Also, see above for my theory on goblin orphans from RotRL just coming of age when PF2 comes out. That's a ready-made group of (likely, mostly) non-Evil goblins.

There's two in Mediogalti that seem actively evil, but also ones that ride dinosaurs!

The ones in the Shackles are pretty much all Pirates, but the Reefrunner tribe is noted as being less aggressive when plundering (unless they're in a bad mood), usually allowing sailors to flee.

The Varisia section flat out says there's far too many tribes to even pick out the most prominent ones, so they gives a few sentences to a bunch, with soem being evil inclined, the rest not stated one way or another, there's even the non-aggressive (by Goblin standards) Birdcruncher tribe, which gets its food by hunting birds.


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Rysky wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
pjrogers wrote:
Rysky wrote:
We can't say universally their songs are about that because we've only seen a handful of songs, most from the same tribes? Goblins aren't innately evil.

Take a look at the Goblins of Golarion Player Companion. It describes a number of Goblin tribes and none of them are portrayed in a positive light or as deviating from the goblin norm.

Goblins may not be innately evil in the same way that evil outsiders are, but I'm pretty confident that 99% of all goblins have an evil alignment (at least until Paizo's apparent 180 degree turn with PF2e).

Even if 99% of tribes are Evil (and it could easily be more like 90%), that doesn't mean 99% of Goblins are. I mean, a N or CN person can pretty readily survive in Goblin culture by just being less murder-y (maybe they stay back and guard the camp rather than going on raids and don't torture people).

Also, see above for my theory on goblin orphans from RotRL just coming of age when PF2 comes out. That's a ready-made group of (likely, mostly) non-Evil goblins.

There's two in Mediogalti that seem actively evil, but also ones that ride dinosaurs!

The ones in the Shackles are pretty much all Pirates, but the Reefrunner tribe is noted as being less aggressive when plundering (unless they're in a bad mood), usually allowing sailors to flee.

Well, three in Mediogalti (Eggsuckers, Knotsnarl, Longlung), from the big ones mentioned.

Also note that almost every single one of the Tribe writeups just assume they're normal goblins (as explained earlier in Goblins of Golarion) which have adapted their tactics to where they are. And given the earlier writeup and how it paints goblins (which is reinforced in the ARG and the Monster Codex), it's safe to assume most of them are Evil.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Goblins are a short-lived race that matures quickly and breeds like rabbits, with most goblins dying violently before they can reproduce.

What you have here is the perfect formula for evolution by natural selection.


Tarondor wrote:

Hate it.

But then, I hated it when half-orcs became core, so that ship has sailed.

To be clear, I don’t object to goblin PCs. I object to them as core. It implies that goblin PCs are common and they shouldn’t be.

Just out of curiosity, why were you opposed to Half-Orcs being added to Core? Similar reason to why you don’t like Goblins added?

And they are not common as PCs. YET. But Paizo is clearly wanting to change that by putting them right up to the big kids table and giving them more options. So there will definitely be more goblin PCs and that is by design. And as I still have yet to be given a good reason that is detrimental to the game I am going to keep hailing it as a good thing. More options for Players is always good! Well, almost. There is such a thing as too many choices. But an 8th core race is not that.


Leyren wrote:
Blog wrote:

When we first started looking at what would become the ancestries in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, we knew that we wanted to add something to the mix, to broaden the horizon of what it meant to be a hero in Pathfinder.

So this sencence states that Goblins ans Alchemists will be in the Playtest Rulebook.

But will they be part of the final Core Rulebook? Doesn't sound like we can be sure.

Well goblins are in the core and alchemists are as well so I assume the new iconic for alchemist is probably going to be a goblin. Frankly alchemy has a lot of draw for goblins. Ability to make bombs and things to light stuff on fire is like the pinnacle of goblindom.


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I'm seriously underwhelmed by this decision. Being a product identity is the ONLY reason goblins are going to be a core race - and that is not a good reason - very WOTC Dragonborn, if you ask me.

It also relegates the other monstrous races to a lower status as far as the rules are concerned that legitimately would be more realistically integrating into regular society (kobolds - because lawful, trolls - because Kaer Maga, etc).

Silver Crusade

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pjrogers wrote:
Rysky wrote:
pjrogers wrote:
Rysky wrote:
We can't say universally their songs are about that because we've only seen a handful of songs, most from the same tribes? Goblins aren't innately evil.

Take a look at the Goblins of Golarion Player Companion. It describes a number of Goblin tribes and none of them are portrayed in a positive light or as deviating from the goblin norm.

Goblins may not be innately evil in the same way that evil outsiders are, but I'm pretty confident that 99% of all goblins have an evil alignment (at least until Paizo's apparent 180 degree turn with PF2e).

Actually from what I'me reading of the tribes sections in GoG it doesn't really paint any of them as evil.
All I can say is that you and I have a very, very different sense of what evil is. The most positive thing that can be said about any of the goblin tribes is that some are less dangerous because they are more cowardly and many are as much victims of more powerful evil races and groups as they are victimizers themselves.

I guess.

From the tribe section which has dozens detailed in various amounts only a very few are painted as actively evil (those who take slaves). I don't consider how they equip themselves for war or how they go about combating foes as evil.


Cuttlefist wrote:
Tarondor wrote:

Hate it.

But then, I hated it when half-orcs became core, so that ship has sailed.

To be clear, I don’t object to goblin PCs. I object to them as core. It implies that goblin PCs are common and they shouldn’t be.

Just out of curiosity, why were you opposed to Half-Orcs being added to Core? Similar reason to why you don’t like Goblins added?

And they are not common as PCs. YET. But Paizo is clearly wanting to change that by putting them right up to the big kids table and giving them more options. So there will definitely be more goblin PCs and that is by design. And as I still have yet to be given a good reason that is detrimental to the game I am going to keep hailing it as a good thing. More options for Players is always good! Well, almost. There is such a thing as too many choices. But an 8th core race is not that.

Personally, I had hoped that the new heritage rules would make predefined half-races (half-orc, half-elf, sylph, undine, etc) obsolete as a separate mechanical thing.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

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Maybe they'll just introduce another "GAP" (like starfinder). Everyone wakes up one day and suddenly they all like goblins and can't remember why they ever thought they were evil in the first place.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
CraziFuzzy wrote:

I'm seriously underwhelmed by this decision. Being a product identity is the ONLY reason goblins are going to be a core race - and that is not a good reason - very WOTC Dragonborn, if you ask me.

It also relegates the other monstrous races to a lower status as far as the rules are concerned that legitimately would be more realistically integrating into regular society (kobolds - because lawful, trolls - because Kaer Maga, etc).

... outside of The City of Strangers (and Irrisen) where do trolls integrate into society?


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CraziFuzzy wrote:
Cuttlefist wrote:
Tarondor wrote:

Hate it.

But then, I hated it when half-orcs became core, so that ship has sailed.

To be clear, I don’t object to goblin PCs. I object to them as core. It implies that goblin PCs are common and they shouldn’t be.

Just out of curiosity, why were you opposed to Half-Orcs being added to Core? Similar reason to why you don’t like Goblins added?

And they are not common as PCs. YET. But Paizo is clearly wanting to change that by putting them right up to the big kids table and giving them more options. So there will definitely be more goblin PCs and that is by design. And as I still have yet to be given a good reason that is detrimental to the game I am going to keep hailing it as a good thing. More options for Players is always good! Well, almost. There is such a thing as too many choices. But an 8th core race is not that.

Personally, I had hoped that the new heritage rules would make predefined half-races (half-orc, half-elf, sylph, undine, etc) obsolete as a separate mechanical thing.

I can agree with that, for me half-orc and half-elf should not be a race it should be a template. If I have to pick 8 races/ancestries it would be: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome, Orc, Goblin, and Kobold.


Corrik wrote:
But it does mean a bonus to diplomacy. Which is 100% what goblins are known to do after burning down a village and eating all the babies.

That is not necessarily true in the tiered class proficiency system of PF2.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I tend to wonder if any thought was given to making Tengu a core race before the inclusion of the Goblin. Since the Tengu has been a legal choice for a character race in PFS early in the seasons, I can't imagine that it would not be included in the new PFS as soon as there was stats for it.

Is the Goblin the only non-core race to be included in the core book in 2nd edition? However likely that is, I would implore that the Tengu be included if it is at all possible.


David knott 242 wrote:

Goblins are a short-lived race that matures quickly and breeds like rabbits, with most goblins dying violently before they can reproduce.

What you have here is the perfect formula for evolution by natural selection.

This is one reason I am still thinking there could be valid in game lore to explain the change. A race that breeds fast/short life span and also keeps no real track of their own history is pretty subject to change by outside events in ways that could wind up being pretty rapid.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Grumpus wrote:
Maybe they'll just introduce another "GAP" (like starfinder). Everyone wakes up one day and suddenly they all like goblins and can't remember why they ever thought they were evil in the first place.

The've already stated they're not going to have any major events (no Gap, no Spellplague, no Time of Troubles) inbetween Editions.


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Just to add my stance: I like the occasional goblin pc and have played them twice in games. Once as a true neutral sea singer bard who wanted to see the world (and wasn't scared of books), and once in an evil campaign. Not digging them as a core race, though. In the end, I don't run or play in Society games so this won't affect me too much.


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Rysky wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

I'm seriously underwhelmed by this decision. Being a product identity is the ONLY reason goblins are going to be a core race - and that is not a good reason - very WOTC Dragonborn, if you ask me.

It also relegates the other monstrous races to a lower status as far as the rules are concerned that legitimately would be more realistically integrating into regular society (kobolds - because lawful, trolls - because Kaer Maga, etc).

... outside of The City of Strangers (and Irrisen) where do trolls integrate into society?

I mean....you can say the same about goblins? At least the Trolls of Kaer Maga are revered seers. Where in Golarion are Goblins integrated into society with that same measure of respect?

Shadow Lodge

I don't think "revered" is the correct word for it, but it DOES start with 'r'...


edduardco wrote:


I can agree with that, for me half-orc and half-elf should not be a race it should be a template. If I have to pick 8 races/ancestries it would be: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome, Orc, Goblin, and Kobold.

This is good stuff.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
TheFinish wrote:
Rysky wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

I'm seriously underwhelmed by this decision. Being a product identity is the ONLY reason goblins are going to be a core race - and that is not a good reason - very WOTC Dragonborn, if you ask me.

It also relegates the other monstrous races to a lower status as far as the rules are concerned that legitimately would be more realistically integrating into regular society (kobolds - because lawful, trolls - because Kaer Maga, etc).

... outside of The City of Strangers (and Irrisen) where do trolls integrate into society?
I mean....you can say the same about goblins? At least the Trolls of Kaer Maga are revered seers. Where in Golarion are Goblins integrated into society with that same measure of respect?

All over the places in small amounts which is the case for Kaer Maga(I don't think there's a bunch of those Troll Augurs), and the Ice Trolls of Irrisen are the same as every other Ice Troll.


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I love Goblins as Core because: why not, its pathfinder it’s not D&D you have to make things a little different.

I had good and bad experience playing with players and one of my better ones was with a player playing a Goblin barbarian (he wanted to be chaotic evil before the first session, I was going to play a paladin, and after that first I detect evil and if you are an evil goblin I’m going to kill you on sight thing he became a fun Chaotic neutral)and I was a Paladin, and they became the best of friends in that campaign, My paladin was trying to teach him to be a civilized force of good, and well he wanted to kill big things because he was little but strong, and most of the time eat what he killed.

In D&D 5E they have core races like Tieflings, Dragonborn, Half-Orc.
So if some one can play with a half demon or half monster or a draconic thing why not let them play with a goblin, actually a good lawful goblin paladin in shinny armor.


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Rysky wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
Rysky wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

I'm seriously underwhelmed by this decision. Being a product identity is the ONLY reason goblins are going to be a core race - and that is not a good reason - very WOTC Dragonborn, if you ask me.

It also relegates the other monstrous races to a lower status as far as the rules are concerned that legitimately would be more realistically integrating into regular society (kobolds - because lawful, trolls - because Kaer Maga, etc).

... outside of The City of Strangers (and Irrisen) where do trolls integrate into society?
I mean....you can say the same about goblins? At least the Trolls of Kaer Maga are revered seers. Where in Golarion are Goblins integrated into society with that same measure of respect?
All over the places in small amounts which is the case for Kaer Maga(I don't think there's a bunch of those Troll Augurs), and the Ice Trolls of Irrisen are the same as every other Ice Troll.

Well, there's 75 of them, which is a bit more than a bunch.

But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".

Liberty's Edge

TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".

I listed one:

The Goblin Orphanage near Sandpoint that got made in RotRL.

Sure, it's hypothetical, but it's also really easy to introduce and fits what they said they were doing with the setting.


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I mean, do we really need an excuse? We really don’t.

Just sayin’.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
But you didn't answer my question. Where in Golarion? Get me examples. You have one for Trolls. You should be able to find one canonical instance of a goblin enclave that has integrated into a metropolis, instead of your vague "oh they totes exist".

I listed one:

The Goblin Orphanage near Sandpoint that got made in RotRL.

Sure, it's hypothetical, but it's also really easy to introduce and fits what they said they were doing with the setting.

So...headcanon? And rather specific headcanon at that, considering all the ways Rise of the Runelords can go. I fail to see how that compares to all the already established populations in published cities.

I also very much doubt every Goblin PC is going to come from Sandpoint's orphanage, but that's neither here nor there.

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