My plan is going to be to skirt around the side of the building, get in a position where I can pop some arrows through a window perhaps.
Well, Tandlara just took a crossbow bolt to the heart. Going back and checking on it, I forgot that the base damage for an arrow trap is 1d8+1 and that a crossbow's crit rating is x3. Considering that would have DOAed her on the spot, we'll just leave it as is.
Orlivanch has the cunning trigger rogue talent, which is how he fired the crossbow as a swift action. Fortunately, that's the only bolt in that crossbow and it can only fire in that straight line. Of course, he might have more...
Yes, that will be my explanation. Indeed, I thought of it from the beginning.
The trap was originally an arrow trap. Now it's a crossbow trap. Problem solved!
Works for me! :)
It is uncanny. Jemini keeps rolling amazingly well. And Mahjik (my high wisdom monk) just failed to aid on a wisdom-skill (Heal).
Heh, nice. Zander's been pretty average overall, but I'm pretty happy with the way things are going so far this combat :)
OMG I <3 Expeditious Retreat.
DM Barcas, can I just do a general Perception check for more traps on the porch and/or door, or do I need to hang out there for a while? I'm guessing it's the latter, but figured I'd ask.
Also, what do you guys think -- I can be in the cabin and in his face and still have an attack on my next turn. OR I can move around to the other window and start shooting at him with my bow. I have enough move to do either of these and still attack. Melee would be more satisfying and he'd have a harder time getting away from me, but I fear House-O-Traps. Ranged is kind of safer in that I can get cover by ducking under the window after I shoot, but then he can like hide behind an overturned table or whatever inside, possibly rendering that whole maneuver useless.
Thoughts?
I'd probably recommend against rushing in alone until we get some of the heavier fighters up there. Getting around to a window might be your best bet until we're able to move some more people up to bust in the door.
Yeah, I'm down. Maybe we can just turn him into a pincushion, do it the safe way.
Technically speaking if Orlivanch has to move towards Verik and can do nothing but move, that would mean he can't open the door and would instead crawl out the window and then just move into this pit, yes? This sounds promising :)
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Well now he has to spend a turn approaching us a directly as possible and doing nothing but moving - he might even trigger some of his own traps since he cannot avoid them if they are in the directest route possible.
By the look of the map I figure he will move up and open the door, or possibly go through the window if that's viable.
That's an exceptionally literal reading. If it were a higher-level spell, I'd say that it would have such an effect. The way I see it working is that it disrupts his decision-making process and causes him to choose to make his way next to Verik, just as if he was trying to make it there as normal. He won't take a circuitous movement-wasting trip around the cabin, though. 100% of his movement will be in the advancement of the goal: get next to Verik.
Well either way it'll work out pretty great. Good spell choice Verik :)
I agree with DM Barcas. Walking over a trap he knows is there, is strictly speaking not the most direct route to get to Verik - his compulsion should make him attempt to get to Verik as optimally as possible.
Well assuming moving through the window would count as a move action, he could still get right up next to Verik in J18, which will definitely make getting to him easier for us.
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Well by that reasoning he would avoid attacks of opportunity to, but he specifically does not. So why would he avoid a space that could trigger a trap and not an opponent? This is simply an ideal situation to make use of the spell, how often will it come up? Never again in all probability.
I will be rather upset if it gets house ruled simply because the rules are not convenient. It is the most direct route not the most convenient, or most direct non dangerous route. This is also Verik's domain ability so I really do not want it weakened. Honestly I have never heard anyone call command broken, or even a top tier spell, a spell being effective in a highly specific set of circumstances is no reason to nerf it.
With my DM hat on I would probably say something like pit traps are not considered direct, but other traps would be, because a pit trap has a high potential of restricting movement while a mere injury type does not, etc.
Blah, anyway that will be my last word on the subject either way. I'll certainly get over however it is ruled.
Would he walk straight into a pit of lava or over a bottomless pit? Those would not get him to where he needs to go. Would he not realize that going through the door would likely get him there faster and closer (i.e. more direct) than crawling through the window? Would he not realize that getting stuck in a pit is not direct?
He'll walk the route that impedes his movement the least. Attacks of opportunity and activating damage traps are fine, but jumping into a pit or taking the time to climb through a window would work against the command.
Would he walk straight into a pit of lava or over a bottomless pit? Those would not get him to where he needs to go. Would he not realize that going through the door would likely get him there faster and closer (i.e. more direct) than crawling through the window? Would he not realize that getting stuck in a pit is not direct?
He'll walk the route that impedes his movement the least. Attacks of opportunity and activating damage traps are fine, but jumping into a pit or taking the time to climb through a window would work against the command.
Except if you're a ninja. Then you acrobatics through the window and lightstep over the traps like a ... uhm ... well, ninja.
I agree on the not jumping into the pit argument, but climbing through the window would actually move him a lot closer than moving to the door and opening it since he wouldn't be able to move any further after that point as he'd already have used up a move action to move in front of the door and a move action to open the door. That is of course unless the windows are less accessable than I'm thinking and it would be a full-round action to move through one... Either way, I'm fine with whatever happens and am mostly just arguing from an academic standpoint :)
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Would he walk straight into a pit of lava or over a bottomless pit? Those would not get him to where he needs to go. Would he not realize that going through the door would likely get him there faster and closer (i.e. more direct) than crawling through the window? Would he not realize that getting stuck in a pit is not direct?
He'll walk the route that impedes his movement the least. Attacks of opportunity and activating damage traps are fine, but jumping into a pit or taking the time to climb through a window would work against the command.
I think we agree, lol. On the window for me it would depend on ease of passage. Maybe a sensible rule of thumb would be if it requires a skill check to do he won't do it. Thus a character would not cross a tight rope over lava because he would need to balance, etc. Or would not climb through a window if it would necessitate a climb check, etc.
Wow! I sure missed that! Just wait until Berrin posts before getting back into combat, Tandlara is pretty shook up by the whole experience though. I'm not quite sure yet what I'm going to have her do!
Thanks for the save though!!
Okay, I'm tallying up experience right now up to post 885 (right before you hit the first trap). I also went back and re-did the math to the half-pooled RP experience system. Here's where you should stand at the end of the 'Visions' arc going into the 'Traps' arc, which you'll probably be ending soon when you defeat Orlivanch. You're getting a minimum of 750 experience each from this one, putting you well on your way. At this rate, you'll probably hit level 3 by the time you return to Oleg's!
Berrin: 2049 (gained 119)
Jemini: 2204 (gained 7)
Taisper: 2164 (lost 1)
Tandlara: 1914 (gained 187)
Verik: 2359 (lost 71)
Zander: 2092 (gained 50)
Hmm, my math seems off. Shouldn't it be zero-sum? Oh, well. Looks like Berrin would have barely made it if I'd gone back and done that, but we'll keep as-is for now.
I'll hand out experience again at the end of the in-game day, which is when Tandlara and Berrin can level up.
Sure, though I don't like it as a way to drastically circumvent the Wealth By Level guidelines. In a game like Kingmaker with essentially unlimited time to craft, it would essentially double it (or more) if left unchecked.
I've got a similar attitude towards it. Crafting always feels like a cheap trick - but I'm always grateful when some player takes crafting when I'm playing in the game. :P
Woo! Level soon!
I feel like such a scab! Hopefully my attempts to improve my RPing are paying off so I will contribute more next time!
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I may be missing something about Kingmaker, and obviously I have not read the module on, etc., but so far I am not seeing this craft time, lol. I can see maybe 2 days in which crafting would have been viable. Perhaps later on things are more sedentary?
The main reason I want the feat is because I doubt we are going to have many chances to trek back to civilized lands for items, at least until teleporting becomes viable, which seems a loooong way off.
A feat costs 8,000gp in item terms, and only a very limited selection are available for that - barring a very generous, probably inappropriately so, DM. So I would argue that good feats are worth more.
That items you craft are also restricted by which requirements you can meet, which is often discounted, but is very significant imo.
It is a very rare game where high level crafting is really viable simple because things take so long to craft. Certainly given the current pace of the game I cannot see where any real amount of crafting would have fit in and time and available gp do not always sink up. You need about 16 days of crafting to effectively break even - and I would argue that since people don't generally choose weak feats it is really more like 1 month of solid craft time.
And more importantly craft time is generally speaking easily controlled by the DM.
Then there is the fact that a non selfish crafter - which I intend Verik to be, for the most part at least ;) - spreads the wealth around the party. And further argue that effects are generally cheaper, per person, when spread between an entire party.
I'm in favor of Verik taking Craft Wondrous Item (and hopefully Craft Magic Arms & Armor too) as it is definitely nice having a crafter around. While it does definitely make the party wealth level a bit higher, I'm not too opposed to that idea. With 6 people we're going to be getting less gold each than the adventure plans out to begin with so I see no problem with supplementing that with a bit of crafted items. Easy item crafting is just a way of life in Pathfinder and I have no problem accepting that :)
And Verik, in Kingmaker you will have a ton of time to craft. Once we start ruling a kingdom, each "turn" of kingdom maintenance is 1-month of gametime. Our characters will probably age 10 years or more by the time this campaign is over.
I nice balance might be to have crafted items cost 75% to make. That way we don't shoot as much beyond wealth per level, but still get access to appropriate gear.
And Zander, I assume DM Barcas is bumping up wealth earned as mucha s he is adding monsters to encounters. So we probably won't be sharing 4 peoples loot among 6.
After the first book (around level 4), Kingmaker jumps months at a time between adventures. Sometimes years. You'll have basically unlimited crafting time. With a higher DC, you can craft things that you don't meet the requirements for.
I'd appreciate it if you can add total wealth per character to the spreadsheet so that I can know if I need to give more. This gunslinger is a huge financial bonus for you, so hopefully it will get you where you need to be.
There's plenty of crafting time in Kingmaker - and I think the assumption is that a crafter will craft for the party as a whole. This however does make wealth-by-level guides considerably more difficult to control. Especially if some characters can benefit more from the crafting than others.
Assume, for the sake of argument, that Jemini is a monk, and Zander is a ranger heavily focussed on archery (not that much of a stretch I guess). Then also assume that Verik only acquires Craft Wondrous. That means that Jemini benefits considerably more from Verik's crafting than Zander - as 90% of the items Jemini uses are craftable; whereas Zander's arms and armor need to be bought the hard way. This creates a big discrepancy in effective wealth for Jemini and Zander although both get the same amount of loot to work with.
Perhaps Tandlara's 75% option is fairest. But we'd have to hear how DM Barcas imagines the in-game effect of the feat playing out.
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A different crafting issue: that of meeting item requirements by adding a +5 to the DC. Personally I GM that in a very restricted way - whereas I've seen many that are very generous about it. The way I see it the first rule explains "all prerequisites must be met" - then later adds "the DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet"; I take that to mean (in context) that all prerequisites must be met; but it is viable for some prerequisites to be met by somebody else other than the crafter. Any prerequisites not met by the caster/crafter himself impose a +5 DC penalty.
My primary reason for doing it is: this reading specifically prohibits crafting of items that the crafter does not have the spell for, for example. Also it prevents a level 3 crafter adding +5 to the DC to craft bracers of armor +8. Both of these are petpeeves of mine that I've seen used in other campaigns.
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On a completely different note: I had a good laugh at Berrin's misfortune. hahaha :D
I went ahead and added up everyone's wealth and listed it on the Party Loot page of the spreadsheet. Turns out I'm real rich and Taisper and Tandlara are real poor. Also if you add things up yourselves and come up with a different number than I did, don't forget to include your 70 gp horse.
My final word on item crafting: I don't mind being overpowered.
Well I'm keen on hearing what the concensus on Craft feats will be as I'm probably planning to take a few of them with my Wizard in the Carrion Crown game.
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I would strenuously object to Jemini's suggested houserules - not that Verik will really be going for spell craft check for higher items, he's not got a Wizards spellcraft chops - but the 75% thing might be a good idea.
Bear in mind that craft feats are supposed to put a party over wealth per level in a way it is like trading feats for money - as treeantmonk would have it - so for trading a precious feat a player should expect a reasonable benefit. But given the apparent craft time bonanza some DM limitation to keep things sensible certainly seems in order.
I don't think the crafting feats are supposed to put parties ahead on the wealth curve. They are more a means to get items that are hard to come by in other ways. Not every town stocks silver smite bracelets.
A single craft feat is worth multiple other feats (similar to "Leadership") as it offers tremendous versatility and offers recurring returns for the remainder of the campaign. A level 12 monk of mine (in a Crimson Throne game) has consistently had the benefit of crafted wondrous items since level 3. He's *very* well equipped. And he didn't even have to spend a feat to do it.
Come to think of it: my most recent purchase for him was a flying ki mat (well, a flying carpet with a ki mat stuck on top). Since there is nothing else he really needs.
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By that logic - which I heartily disagree with - surely crafting feats become a waste of space after 9th level if you have someone who can teleport? If you have time to craft you have time to teleport to Absalom, or any great city in your campaign world. If wealth per level will be the same either way save your precious feat slots, and only drooling incompetents would take the higher level craft feats - granted this is arguably the case already.
The issue about WBL is that it makes the feat worth exponentially more as you level and depending on the size of your party.
A 20th level caster with a 6 person party will get a net benefit of up to 5,280,000 gold; 660 times higher than the expected feat value of 8000 gold.
Hey guys, I'm on a short "tour" out east with one of my bands for a few days, so posting is gonna be a bit spotty during that time. I'm still checking in and will post longer things when I have wifi, but will try to get shorter posts done while in the van. Anything to beguile the tedium of a journey across IN, OH, and PA.
Readying an action requires a full-round action so it's not something you can include with a move.
Readying is a standard action actually. Works fine with a move
Nope, turns out my group has just been doing that the wrong way for a while, heh.
hehehehe
Darn. Stupid +1 missing. And didn't want to spend a move action to pick-up the sword first.
It's cool, I don't need any help killing this guy :P
OOC 1000th post sniper!