Who is the most powerful being in Pathfinder?


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I'm wondering what you guys think. I'd say Rovagug but I can see a compelling argument for Pharamsma.

In Rovagug's lore it says that all the gods together couldn't kill him so...

Plus he has the strongest herald.

And before anyone else does it, we all know the real answer is Chuck Norris.


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The players.


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The DM.


Well my hunter is only level 5. Get back to me in a few months


Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
The DM.

Even Rule Zero is trumped by the Final Rule: The players can always say "screw this" and do something else.


Depends how you define power. If you mean 'how big is their magic ####' then yeah, probably Rovagug. If you mean power to affect events that's more likely to be someone like Asmodeus (powerful deity, good with loopholes) or Torag (powerful deity, boss of several other deities). If you mean which deity has the most powerful domain then Pharasma is possible, or Gozreh. Just about everything's dependent on nature eventually after all.


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Level 20 Nature Oracle of course.


You asked what the strongest being was in Pathfinder. If you're asking a setting specific question, you might want to clarify that, rather than leaving it to inference. The answer for Pathfinder, the game, is, as Blaphers pointed out, the PCS, though one could make a case for some bestiary entries.

On Golarian, if the question's just "who wins in a fight?" then the answer's either Ravagug, a nature oracle, or a simulacrum abusing wizard.

I haven't seen Ravagug's stats, so I can't say for sure.

Less flippantly, though, and keeping with the spirit of the question, it's really hard to say such deity is the strongest, on account of them being unstatted. But I've long been of the opinion that having Gods in your setting, as opposed to gods, breaks verisimilitude so hard that there's no saving the setting. Why, why why why, are solars and Empyreal Lords fighting Archdevils and Dukes of Hell, when the Gods they work for are at least level six on the Super Weight Scale?

How could I say that Ravagug is stronger than Iomadae when neither have any restrictions put on their power? I'm no mathematical genius, but as far as I know there's no number higher than infinity.

More flippantly, the DM. They're the Level Seven entity, they're the strongest. Maybe the players can beat them working together, or maybe a character like Old Man Henderson can beat the DM despite being technically weaker, but the DM is the strongest being in the game.

Silver Crusade

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Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:

as far as I know there's no number higher than infinity.

[Insanely pedantic aside]

There are different orders of infinity so it isn't totally unreasonable to say that some infinities are higher than others
[/Insanely pedantic aside]

Silver Crusade

I'd have to say it's the unnamed (I think) being that created both Ihys and Asmodeus, and charged them with protecting the Great Seal. You don't really get more primordially omnipotent than that.


Daniel Yeatman wrote:
I'd have to say it's the unnamed (I think) being that created both Ihys and Asmodeus, and charged them with protecting the Great Seal. You don't really get more primordially omnipotent than that.

Yeah...the thing about the Book of the Damned is that it conflicts with a lot of other book's information, and it written from the perspective of a worshipers of Asmodeus. It is generally not considered reliable when it comes into conflict with information from other sources.


Wait, so Nature Oracles and Simulacrum Wizards are tougher than some Deities?


People are exaggerating. Deities don't have stats and are only as strong as plot demands. Generally speaking, anything made with rules will be weaker than beings without any.


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As for things you can theoretically fight, my vote goes to Baba Yaga. Have fun.


You should ask James Jacobs in his AMA thread. He'll probably just say "none of the gods are statted, so it's up to your GM".


Daniel Yeatman wrote:
I'd have to say it's the unnamed (I think) being that created both Ihys and Asmodeus, and charged them with protecting the Great Seal. You don't really get more primordially omnipotent than that.

That whole episode was like walking past your neighbor's yard and seeing their two kids arguing in their treehouse fort about who was biggest and strongest and there first when you'd been living on the block since before they'd been born, or in our case, you'd been living there forever and fighting qlippoth streaming in from their tangent reality after you'd accidentally forged a door between theirs and yours and afterwards the neighborhood went south.

Kids.


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Azathoth.

Grand Lodge

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Your DM’s mostest favoritest pet villain.

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Strahd, in my games.

Or Asmodeus

Grand Lodge

But if the deities were ever given stat blocks, my prediction is that Rovagug and the mostest famousest Cthulhu entities would have individually the highest CRs.

If, however, one were to include all of a particular deity’s total resources instead of a one-on-one ‘arena’ fight, Asmodeus (et all) would win. (as seen when Asmodeus et all put a can of whoop arse on Rovagug last time).


Asmodeus et al. included several of the other deities when they went up against Rovagug. The main thing Asmodeus did was create some sort of seal for Rovagug prison...and kept the key for himself. Sort of a mutually assured destruction clause.


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I thought I'd read somewhere that Pharasma was quite comfortably the most powerful of the deities, but is largely neutral to all other deities save those creating undead, so doesn't flex her muscles much. However I couldn't find where I read that.
What I could find though:

Pharasma is far more powerful than Iomedae and Sarenrae.

There isn't a strict heirarchy, but there is a top tier including Pharasma, Rovagug and Desna. Further down we find out that some of the elder gods such as Nyarlathotep are probably as powerful as Rovagug.

EDIT: found it.

Grand Lodge

Claxon wrote:
Asmodeus et al. included several of the other deities....

.

Oh, I know, I was being snarky in my parenthetical implying Sarenrae and the others were part of Asmodeus’ ‘resources’ imprisoning Rovagug.

But I still think that Asmodeus would be the hardest to defeat if he had all his resources at hand, essentially all of Hell. Whereas Lamashtu or Pazuzu or Hastur or Charon would have far, far fewer resources from which to draw upon (and use as fodder).

But individual CR, yeah, seems like it’d have to be Rovagug.

(I wonder, could anyone argue a strong case for Groetus?....)

The Exchange

Most Powerful: James Jacobs
"The next AP will be about how Pharasma has been killed."

Most Powerful: Jason Bulmahn
"Errata incoming. Weapon Focus doubles your damage, Iron Will makes you immune to anything requiring a will save..."

Most Powerful: Erik Mona
"We're rebooting the system. New stats and setting for everything."


I'm going to put a vote in for Nethys being decently high on the scale. Maybe not in raw strength, but omniscience is a big deal. There are some strategies and situations where an opponent can try to force an action expressly because of this knowledge, but they can't exactly guarantee that Nethys would take the sensible option.

The Exchange

As for the "real" question:

Limiting the question to the demigods, demon lords, and even mythic heroes that have gotten stat blocks, there's a rock-paper-scissors relationship. There's what, about half a dozen CR30 creatures in Bestiary 6? That doesn't mean Apollyon (CR29) wouldn't beat any of them in a fight. But if I have to pick one...

Tawil at’Umr (CR 30)

Bestiary 6 wrote:
Immortality (Ex) If Tawil at’Umr is killed, Yog-Sothoth can create a new avatar immediately. The replacement Tawil at’Umr typically does not reappear where it was killed, and it usually does not seek revenge against those who slew its predecessor. Usually.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have to go with the GM.

The players packing up and leaving isn't inside the game.

There was a CR35 demon in Tome of Horrors Complete; was it Orcus? I can't remember and I'm too lazy to go over the shelf on the other side of the room.


The DM, inside the game he sets the rules and creates the plot devices.


The highest-CR creature I know of in any major, fairly widely-used bestiary is Lucifer in the Tome of Horrors Complete at CR 39. It also has Orcus at CR 35, the Oinodaemon at CR 37, and Tsathogga at CR 30.

For a lesser-known but still outstanding source, the Genius Guide to the Talented Bestiary has the Armageddon Tarrasque at CR 34.

Grand Lodge

By the numbers, the 3.5 Forgotten Realms: Campaign Setting has The Symbul at CR 39 and Khelben Arunsun at CR 37.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also 3.5, Epic Level Handbook:

Great Wyrm Force Dragon, CR59
Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon, CR66

These critters could possibly kill 20th level/10th tier Mythic characters.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Tales Subscriber

I didn't understand the upthread references to 20th level Nature Oracles. Why are they considered so powerful? Their capstone is interesting but not a combat ability. What am I missing?

On topic, I don't think Paizo stats up anything higher than CR 30. Or am I mistaken?


Off the top of my head, I don't recall anything Paizo's published above CR 30 - though they used the Tome of Horrors for some early releases, so I counted it as a source. XD


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BenS wrote:

I didn't understand the upthread references to 20th level Nature Oracles. Why are they considered so powerful? Their capstone is interesting but not a combat ability. What am I missing?

On topic, I don't think Paizo stats up anything higher than CR 30. Or am I mistaken?

The Nature Mystery capstone can make you into an animal and thus a valid target for the Awaken spell. Normally, Awaken making the target a magical beast prevents it from being used on the same creature again, however the Nature Mystery capstone can turn you back into an animal, and thus a valid target for Awaken again. Repeat until your stats are:

Initiative - Goes First
HP - More then all the bestiary entries combined.
AC - Only hit on 20 (maybe)
CMD - Higher then any CMB
Saves - Only fails on a 1 (maybe)
Save DC - Only Natural 20's need apply
CHA - Pick a 9 digit or higher number of your choice.


All creatures that are not immortal are less powerful (ultimately) that those who are immortal. According to Jacobs, Pharasma is the most powerful deity. Any mortal creature with a soul will eventually be judged by her.


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Anzyr wrote:
BenS wrote:

I didn't understand the upthread references to 20th level Nature Oracles. Why are they considered so powerful? Their capstone is interesting but not a combat ability. What am I missing?

On topic, I don't think Paizo stats up anything higher than CR 30. Or am I mistaken?

The Nature Mystery capstone can make you into an animal and thus a valid target for the Awaken spell. Normally, Awaken making the target a magical beast prevents it from being used on the same creature again, however the Nature Mystery capstone can turn you back into an animal, and thus a valid target for Awaken again. Repeat until your stats are:

Initiative - Goes First
HP - More then all the bestiary entries combined.
AC - Only hit on 20 (maybe)
CMD - Higher then any CMB
Saves - Only fails on a 1 (maybe)
Save DC - Only Natural 20's need apply
CHA - Pick a 9 digit or higher number of your choice.

1. Still less than any deity, since they all act by GM fiat.

2. GM is the final arbitrator on Nature Oracle + Awaken. He can Rule 0 it out of existence.

Slim Jim wrote:
All creatures that are not immortal are less powerful (ultimately) that those who are immortal. According to Jacobs, Pharasma is the most powerful deity. Any mortal creature with a soul will eventually be judged by her.

It's a good thing wizards get "Immortality" as their level 20 discovery >:-)


Isn't Pharasma meant to be the most powerful of the gods? Seems she would qualify.


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Volkard Abendroth wrote:

1. Still less than any deity, since they all act by GM fiat.

2. GM is the final arbitrator on Nature Oracle + Awaken. He can Rule 0 it out of existence.

That's a facile reply. A GM can rule 0 anything out of play.

Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
All creatures that are not immortal are less powerful (ultimately) that those who are immortal. According to Jacobs, Pharasma is the most powerful deity. Any mortal creature with a soul will eventually be judged by her.
It's a good thing wizards get "Immortality" as their level 20 discovery >:-)

Not really on topic, but because I find this funny. Immortality weirdly doesn't cause immortality:

You discover a cure for aging, and from this point forward you take no penalty to your physical ability scores from advanced age. If you are already taking such penalties, they are removed at this time. This is an extraordinary ability.

On topic: Whichever deity JJ said last. Or whatever causes you to have a run of bad rolls.


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The dice

Sovereign Court

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I would like to throw my hat in the field for the creature out of the 3rd bestiary the Carbuncle
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/carbuncle /
It has an insane stat block and I think canonically all of them have passed the god stone test.


Physically Unfeasible wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

1. Still less than any deity, since they all act by GM fiat.

2. GM is the final arbitrator on Nature Oracle + Awaken. He can Rule 0 it out of existence.
That's a facile reply. A GM can rule 0 anything out of play.

Which makes the GM the most powerful thing inside Pathfinder.

He sets the rules. He controls the arbitrarily powerful deities. He creates the plot devices.

Quote:
Not really on topic, but because I find this funny. Immortality weirdly doesn't cause immortality:

I was being facetious, thus the quote marks.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Tales Subscriber
Anzyr wrote:
BenS wrote:

I didn't understand the upthread references to 20th level Nature Oracles. Why are they considered so powerful? Their capstone is interesting but not a combat ability. What am I missing?

On topic, I don't think Paizo stats up anything higher than CR 30. Or am I mistaken?

The Nature Mystery capstone can make you into an animal and thus a valid target for the Awaken spell. Normally, Awaken making the target a magical beast prevents it from being used on the same creature again, however the Nature Mystery capstone can turn you back into an animal, and thus a valid target for Awaken again. Repeat until your stats are:

Initiative - Goes First
HP - More then all the bestiary entries combined.
AC - Only hit on 20 (maybe)
CMD - Higher then any CMB
Saves - Only fails on a 1 (maybe)
Save DC - Only Natural 20's need apply
CHA - Pick a 9 digit or higher number of your choice.

I still don't quite get it, but I appreciate the response. Assuming the DM was ok w/ that bit of loophole cheese to begin w/, the Awaken spell could theoretically then give you infinite amounts of HD, Intelligence & Charisma, right? Maybe I don't understand the rules enough, but not sure where the higher AC and Saves come from.

Anyway, this is off topic; you don't need to respond.


BenS wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
BenS wrote:

I didn't understand the upthread references to 20th level Nature Oracles. Why are they considered so powerful? Their capstone is interesting but not a combat ability. What am I missing?

On topic, I don't think Paizo stats up anything higher than CR 30. Or am I mistaken?

The Nature Mystery capstone can make you into an animal and thus a valid target for the Awaken spell. Normally, Awaken making the target a magical beast prevents it from being used on the same creature again, however the Nature Mystery capstone can turn you back into an animal, and thus a valid target for Awaken again. Repeat until your stats are:

Initiative - Goes First
HP - More then all the bestiary entries combined.
AC - Only hit on 20 (maybe)
CMD - Higher then any CMB
Saves - Only fails on a 1 (maybe)
Save DC - Only Natural 20's need apply
CHA - Pick a 9 digit or higher number of your choice.

I still don't quite get it, but I appreciate the response. Assuming the DM was ok w/ that bit of loophole cheese to begin w/, the Awaken spell could theoretically then give you infinite amounts of HD, Intelligence & Charisma, right? Maybe I don't understand the rules enough, but not sure where the higher AC and Saves come from.

Anyway, this is off topic; you don't need to respond.

Nature Oracles get the Nature's Whisper Revelation that allows them to add CHA to AC and CMD instead of DEX. Your increases to your HD from Awaken will also increase your saves with a progression of good Fortitude and Reflex and poor Will. To further hammer home the insane saves you can add your incredibly high CHA to your saves cast Bestow Grace/Bestow Grace of the Champion on yourself.


CactusUnicorn wrote:

I'm wondering what you guys think. I'd say Rovagug but I can see a compelling argument for Pharamsma.

In Rovagug's lore it says that all the gods together couldn't kill him so...

Plus he has the strongest herald.

And before anyone else does it, we all know the real answer is Chuck Norris.

Lisa Stevens


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James Jacobs answered this question in the ask James Jacobs thread. It’s Pharasma.


Anzyr wrote:


The Nature Mystery capstone can make you into an animal and thus a valid target for the Awaken spell. Normally, Awaken making the target a magical beast prevents it from being used on the same creature again, however the Nature Mystery capstone can turn you back into an animal, and thus a valid target for Awaken again. Repeat until your stats are:

Leaving aside the rotten cheese, has the legality of this trick been examined? Not seeing much mention of it.

Issue 1, the spell has the caveat that it only works on animals with an intelligence of 2 or less. I presume you use ability drain to reduce your intelligence to 2, have someone else cast the spell, then heal it, repeat.

Issue 2, isn't this an untyped bonus to Char and HD stacking with itself? My understanding was same spell, same source.


Technically, it's not a bonus.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Tales Subscriber

The interesting thing about conjecture threads like this one, to me, is that Paizo/PF deliberately did away w/ the old deity rankings (1-20, covering quasi-deities, demigods, lesser gods, intermediate gods, and greater gods). I never understood why, though I've seen references to JJ desirous of this change.

Anyway, if we had something similar, maybe we would be on firmer ground for inquiries like this one. They wouldn't even have to use the 1-20 scale, but just give us back the classifications and we could have a general idea as to the power levels of deities.


Anzyr wrote:
BenS wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
BenS wrote:

I didn't understand the upthread references to 20th level Nature Oracles. Why are they considered so powerful? Their capstone is interesting but not a combat ability. What am I missing?

On topic, I don't think Paizo stats up anything higher than CR 30. Or am I mistaken?

The Nature Mystery capstone can make you into an animal and thus a valid target for the Awaken spell. Normally, Awaken making the target a magical beast prevents it from being used on the same creature again, however the Nature Mystery capstone can turn you back into an animal, and thus a valid target for Awaken again. Repeat until your stats are:

Initiative - Goes First
HP - More then all the bestiary entries combined.
AC - Only hit on 20 (maybe)
CMD - Higher then any CMB
Saves - Only fails on a 1 (maybe)
Save DC - Only Natural 20's need apply
CHA - Pick a 9 digit or higher number of your choice.

I still don't quite get it, but I appreciate the response. Assuming the DM was ok w/ that bit of loophole cheese to begin w/, the Awaken spell could theoretically then give you infinite amounts of HD, Intelligence & Charisma, right? Maybe I don't understand the rules enough, but not sure where the higher AC and Saves come from.

Anyway, this is off topic; you don't need to respond.

Nature Oracles get the Nature's Whisper Revelation that allows them to add CHA to AC and CMD instead of DEX. Your increases to your HD from Awaken will also increase your saves with a progression of good Fortitude and Reflex and poor Will. To further hammer home the insane saves you can add your incredibly high CHA to your saves cast Bestow Grace/Bestow Grace of the Champion on yourself.

Funny thing no one ever mentions about the Awaken spell is it only works on a creature with an INT of 2 or less.

Once one reduces their INT to 2 or less, are they then intelligent enough to cast Awaken?

Sounds like bad cheese that just wouldn't work.

Besides, Pharasma has already been named the most powerful deity, handily so.


Soulgear wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
BenS wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
BenS wrote:

I didn't understand the upthread references to 20th level Nature Oracles. Why are they considered so powerful? Their capstone is interesting but not a combat ability. What am I missing?

On topic, I don't think Paizo stats up anything higher than CR 30. Or am I mistaken?

The Nature Mystery capstone can make you into an animal and thus a valid target for the Awaken spell. Normally, Awaken making the target a magical beast prevents it from being used on the same creature again, however the Nature Mystery capstone can turn you back into an animal, and thus a valid target for Awaken again. Repeat until your stats are:

Initiative - Goes First
HP - More then all the bestiary entries combined.
AC - Only hit on 20 (maybe)
CMD - Higher then any CMB
Saves - Only fails on a 1 (maybe)
Save DC - Only Natural 20's need apply
CHA - Pick a 9 digit or higher number of your choice.

I still don't quite get it, but I appreciate the response. Assuming the DM was ok w/ that bit of loophole cheese to begin w/, the Awaken spell could theoretically then give you infinite amounts of HD, Intelligence & Charisma, right? Maybe I don't understand the rules enough, but not sure where the higher AC and Saves come from.

Anyway, this is off topic; you don't need to respond.

Nature Oracles get the Nature's Whisper Revelation that allows them to add CHA to AC and CMD instead of DEX. Your increases to your HD from Awaken will also increase your saves with a progression of good Fortitude and Reflex and poor Will. To further hammer home the insane saves you can add your incredibly high CHA to your saves cast Bestow Grace/Bestow Grace of the Champion on yourself.

Funny thing no one ever mentions about the Awaken spell is it only works on a creature with an INT of 2 or less.

Once one reduces their INT to 2 or less, are they then intelligent enough to cast Awaken?

Nothing says you can't presuming you're casting off charisma like oracles. Spell usage is only cut off when your casting stat drops to deficent levels.


Nothing says you...

This is a quote from the Core Rule Book regarding intelligence: "If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3."

Basically, Int lower than 3 doesn't allow for speech. I'm sure there are special circumstances, such as the raven familiar, but I would not rule this as one of them.

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