So long story short, in our last session, the GM's rogue betrayed us, killed my character, and ran off into the sunset. Considering that this GM is really big on traps, we're seriously going to need a new trapfinder.
Problem is, rogues are probably my least favorite class. I prefer less situational damage over sneak attacks.
So, I need a rogue that can still deal with traps, while also focusing less on sneaking, and more on combat.
Starting at 11th level, any ideas?
This might not help, but I'm often amused at the thought of playing a Stonelord Paladin with all the save enhancing feats a dwarf can buy and then just springing traps and soaking up the punishment instead of disarming them. It might not work well, but I'd like to try it in practice sometime.
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Slayer with the trapfinding talent is an option that might suit you.
Slayer with the trapfinding talent is an option that might suit you.
Again though, slayer is reliant on sneak attack damage.
The underground Alchemist Rogue Archetype is something a friend suggested. It keeps trapfinding and Trap sense, and I can focus on bombs, rather than sneak attacks.
You're a full base attack bonus class with other ways to boost attack and damage. Just don't use sneak attack. Of course, that's like telling a barbarian not to use rage powers, but...
Trapper Ranger? Seeker archetype Oracle/Sorcerer? The trap finding trait from Mummy's Mask? Archaeologist archetype bard? There's plenty of options.
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Trapper ranger 1 Then whatever you want X. Rogues have very little in the way of class features that make them all that much better than other classes at traps. No party needs a Rogue to have a trap person.
Take a one level dip in a class that gives trap finding and then do a class with decent skill ranks. If you want my personal opinion, try an alchemist if you haven't yet. They are an extremely versatile class that could theoretically do any or all of the 4 roles at that level.
Slayer, Investigator, Sanctified Slayer (inquisitor), Archaeologist (bard), etc. Get trapfinding without the Rogue's problems. There is also a trait, Trap-Finder IIRC, which gives most of what you want (disable magic traps).
Or you can be a rogue 1/class that interests you X and not worry about sneak attack.
Slayer with the trapfinding talent is an option that might suit you.Again though, slayer is reliant on sneak attack damage.
Although a slayer gets sneak attack damage, she is by no means reliant on it. Slayer is a full BAB class with access to fighter feats and ranger abilities. The slayer I currently run has the highest to hit and the best damage output of any character I've ever had. And this is without counting sneak attack which I consider just icing on the cake.
BTW: she's not bad at trap finding and disable device either without much investment in those abilities.Morag
But then I like the unchained rogue just fine also.
Slayer with the trapfinding talent is an option that might suit you.Again though, slayer is reliant on sneak attack damage.
The underground Alchemist Rogue Archetype is something a friend suggested. It keeps trapfinding and Trap sense, and I can focus on bombs, rather than sneak attacks.
Nah, the Slayer is Studied-Target reliant. Sneak Attack isn't so much a necessity as much as its some nice bonus damage when you can get it.
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Slayer with the trapfinding talent is an option that might suit you.Again though, slayer is reliant on sneak attack damage.
Pffftahahahahaha
Seriously though the above character is a blender, and he's used Sneak Attack so infrequently that in ten levels I can still count the number of combats it came into play on my fingers.
Play an Investigator though, is my advice. Spellcasting plus Talents is fun, and Studied Combat makes you a combat beast too.
If you don't like the Alchemist list, take the archetype that gives you Bard casting.
- Nature Fang Druid can take the Trapfinder Slayer Talent at level 4.
- Slayer is NOT reliant on Sneak Attack. It's nice to have it, but your main source of damage are Style Feats and Studied Target.
Do you want to be good against a lot of enemies at once but cost buffing resources or do you want to be good at one enemy at a time but bring your own buffs to the party? Pick slayer if you want the first one or investigator if you want the second one.
Why don't you play whatever class you want and dip one level into rogue? You could be a wizard 10 / rogue 1 for instance.
Why don't you play whatever class you want and dip one level into rogue? You could be a wizard 10 / rogue 1 for instance.
Herald caller clerics are better at trapfinding than wizard/rouge multiclasses. Wis based means there's better perception. You just have to summon a monster and run instead of using disable device. They can also dispel magic in a pinch.
That said they're not the best at swing weapons around, so probably not what the OP wants.
Ok, to recap:
*Level 11
*Likes doing reliable damage, sneak attack too situational
*Doesn't enjoy sneaking
*Probably wants to engage with the paradigm of Perception checks and disable Device, rather than casting "F**k Traps" every morning
Basically, any full BAB class with perception as a class skill (and ideally bonuses) can work. Trapfinding is only required to disable magic traps, not spot them. Well, at that point, your party can try to dispel the trap or just find a way to bypass it. I am a fan of the ranger - while the iconic rangers are sneaky, you do not have to be - but a barbarian or monk works well too. Heck, monks even tend to have good wisdom, which translates into good perception bonuses.
I would still say an investigator is a great rogue replacement and hard to beat when it comes to traps (and quite a few other things), but if you want something that is more suited to bashing heads, you have other options
There are lots of other good suggestions on classes and archetypes already in the thread. Since you’re 11th level you could also easily multiclass though, and it might be worthwhile if the DM allows material from Unchained.
4 levels of Unchained Rogue on a Dex based combatant could be pretty nice. For the cost of -1 BAB you'd get Weapon Finesse, Evasion, Trapfinding, Dex mod to damage with one type of weapon, and the ability to give your enemy a -2 penalty to attacks or AC (-4 when dealing with you directly)
Using the variant multiclassing option for Rogue would be another option and would net you Evasion, Trapfinding, and +2d6 sneak attack (which could be a nice situational bonus even if you don’t want to rely on it)
You only really need 3 things:
-perception as a class skill (many options here)
-decent amount of skill ranks in general (this isn't completly nessesary but if you are replacing the rogue people often expect decent skill ranks
-a way to disable magical traps(this can be gained by a trait)
There are many classes that can get all three of these but I personally go for ones with a certain amount of spell casting, especially detect magic which can help against things like alarm which don't fall under the rules for trapfinding but are still basically traps.
Investigator, inquisitor, seekers sage sorc, or even summoner with the eidolon built to be a scout.
Just pick literally ANY other trapfinder. There are so many to choose from, nobody NEEDS a rogue anymore.
No way. Every party needs a rogue AND a cleric. Oh, AND a wizard.
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Just pick literally ANY other trapfinder. There are so many to choose from, nobody NEEDS a rogue anymore.No way. Every party needs a rogue AND a cleric. Oh, AND a wizard.
** spoiler omitted **
I recently convinced my group that just started Hell's Rebels that we don't need a cleric/dedicated healer. We had a session recently where our party was Barbarian/Bard (Me)/Wizard/Arcanist. Literally the safest party comp. in which I've ever played. It was amazing.
And yes, I know you're speaking tongue-in-cheek. :P
Just pick literally ANY other trapfinder. There are so many to choose from, nobody NEEDS a rogue anymore.No way. Every party needs a rogue AND a cleric. Oh, AND a wizard.
** spoiler omitted **
I recently convinced my group that just started Hell's Rebels that we don't need a cleric/dedicated healer. We had a session recently where our party was Barbarian/Bard (Me)/Wizard/Arcanist. Literally the safest party comp. in which I've ever played. It was amazing.
And yes, I know you're speaking tongue-in-cheek. :P
My players just finished book 1 of Hell's Rebels as Inquisitor, Kineticist, Occultist, and Mesmerist. There's a 5th player coming in at the start of book 2 with a Daring Champion Cavalier. They have had some TENSE situations so far, including multiple near-death experiences for the Kineticist, including one where a party member had to jump off a roof to apply a CLW potion the next round with the Kineticist being at 1 shy of dead by the time the potion was applied.
They're starting to get their mojo working, but we'll see how that goes. :-)
Archeologist Bard is excellent and a caster:)
Any class can handle traps.
Worst case scenario, take the Seeker and Trap Finder traits. I did with my magus. Has worked out fine for me to date.
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Just pick literally ANY other trapfinder. There are so many to choose from, nobody NEEDS a rogue anymore.No way. Every party needs a rogue AND a cleric. Oh, AND a wizard.
** spoiler omitted **
I recently convinced my group that just started Hell's Rebels that we don't need a cleric/dedicated healer. We had a session recently where our party was Barbarian/Bard (Me)/Wizard/Arcanist. Literally the safest party comp. in which I've ever played. It was amazing.
And yes, I know you're speaking tongue-in-cheek. :P
My players just finished book 1 of Hell's Rebels as Inquisitor, Kineticist, Occultist, and Mesmerist. There's a 5th player coming in at the start of book 2 with a Daring Champion Cavalier. They have had some TENSE situations so far, including multiple near-death experiences for the Kineticist, including one where a party member had to jump off a roof to apply a CLW potion the next round with the Kineticist being at 1 shy of dead by the time the potion was applied.
They're starting to get their mojo working, but we'll see how that goes. :-)
To be fair, we have a LOT of crowd control, utility, and support. I picked up Cure Light Wounds (because at 1st level, that's a very useful spell), and between color spray and sleep, little has stood in our way. I can see how a less debuff-oriented group might struggle at times.
Wizard.
Seriously, think about it. They get various spells to destroy traps from a safe distance, enough skill points from INT to max out perception and disable device, get summoning to check for floor traps ahead of the party, calling spells to actually call in more specialised rogues if needed, detect magic/secret doors/metal to find traps that aren't visible to the naked eye, AND can deal reliable damage.
You don't need to play a rogue, rogue is a terrible class. What your party needs is a skill monkey, and many classes fall into that category: Inquisitor, Hunter, Ranger, Bard, Alchemist, Slayer, Investigator, even Occultist and Mesmerist.
If Disable Device is not on the class skill list for whichever class you choose, take the Vagabond Child trait and pick up a Masterwork Thief's Tools. Also, max out your Perception skill. That's it, you can go forth and disable traps.
Alchemical Sapper.
Stealth, Disable Device, and structure-damaging bombs.
Cryptbreaker Alchemist.
Trapfinding Device Disabling bomb-chucker.
Slayer (pretty much any type)
Sneaky stabby killfaced mutilation machine with trapfinding options.
It would be nice if we could get a few good archetypes that trade out the slayer sneak attack, but the class really doesn't rely on its sneak attack.
The Occultist gets a lot of good Rogue skills, plus healing and summoning if you prefer alternate routes.
Wizard.
Seriously, think about it. They get various spells to destroy traps from a safe distance, enough skill points from INT to max out perception and disable device, get summoning to check for floor traps ahead of the party, calling spells to actually call in more specialised rogues if needed, detect magic/secret doors/metal to find traps that aren't visible to the naked eye, AND can deal reliable damage.
Not if they've memorized all those non-combat spells.
Not if they've memorized all those non-combat spells.Wizard.
Seriously, think about it. They get various spells to destroy traps from a safe distance, enough skill points from INT to max out perception and disable device, get summoning to check for floor traps ahead of the party, calling spells to actually call in more specialised rogues if needed, detect magic/secret doors/metal to find traps that aren't visible to the naked eye, AND can deal reliable damage.
Wizards get 20 spells per day at lv 10, and that is with 10 int. That is aplenty for everything non-combat, combat, and utility, especially when you account for scrolls.
and more importantly without specialization, every wizard should specialize.
Wizards get 20 spells per day at lv 10, and that is with 10 int. That is aplenty for everything non-combat, combat, and utility, especially when you account for scrolls.Not if they've memorized all those non-combat spells.Wizard.
Seriously, think about it. They get various spells to destroy traps from a safe distance, enough skill points from INT to max out perception and disable device, get summoning to check for floor traps ahead of the party, calling spells to actually call in more specialised rogues if needed, detect magic/secret doors/metal to find traps that aren't visible to the naked eye, AND can deal reliable damage.
Accounting for scrolls, my fighter can do all that.
But no. Unless you know ahead of time precisely which spells you need, and how many of each, you're not going to carry the party using all those spells and still have what you need to be effective in combat. (Unless you either have a 15 minute adventuring day or play Schrodinger's wizard.)
Without magic, yes, a wizard can find and disable traps. Any class can with the correct investment in equipment, skills and traits.
A slayer is very close to the Rogue. You get Trapfinding at level 2. You can play as a weaker rogue if you want to, but its got more brute force potential unlike the rogue which is basically dead unless it can sneak attack.
Higher hit points, Mithril Breastplate(30foot movement, minimal dex and STR penalties) with a two-handed weapon, or maybe you use a Composite Longbow with or without sneak damage.
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But no. Unless you know ahead of time precisely which spells you need, and how many of each, you're not going to carry the party using all those spells and still have what you need to be effective in combat. (Unless you either have a 15 minute adventuring day or play Schrodinger's wizard.)
But yes. It doesn't need Schrodinger shenanigans as spells are just that useful, even if not precisely designed for the specific task at hand.
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No party needs a Rogue... Even Unchained Rogues, who are much better than their pathetic cousins from Core are far from necessary.
There are at least half a dozen classes that make better rogues than the Rogue class itself.