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what are your alchemy/ alchemist hopes for this book?
I'm not as excited as you are about brand new stuff. I'm hoping for more basic options, as some of them are missing a lot currently:
- High level injury poisons. There's a dearth of them past level 8 (one level 8, one level 10, one level 13 and one level 16). Having a bit more of them will make Potent Poisoner less of a must have for non poisoners and give a bit of variety at high level.- Options to add Runes to Bombs. It would solve the high level issue of the Alchemist (chances to hit will still be low but at least damage would be on par with martials with the added bonus of splash damage and nice effects).
- An Elixir to fly. Fly is available to all casters, and I think it's pretty alchemisty to grow wings from an Elixir.
- A way to deal with Invisibility. There's Cat's Eye Elixir, but I'd prefer some kind of Flour Bomb with the effects of Glitterdust.
- Ways to interact with magic. Dispelling Bombs, Detect Magic Elixirs, etc... The Alchemist could get such things without the game to fall appart.
- Mutagens that you can use on your allies. Currently, Mutagens' drawbacks are way to high compared to the bonuses. I don't know if Mutagens need a buff, a way to get rid of the drawback or an entirely new way of thinking them.
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Class archetypes that allow you to truly specialize. I don't want versatility when I play a bomber, I want to blow stuff up every single turn and never think of other alchemical items.
But that's something you can already build so I don't think Paizo would go so far as to remove entirely the access to other alchemical items.
But I clearly expect class archetypes sacrificing part of the versatility for more specialization.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
for alchemical items only, depends the research field ( rather than making it generic ):
- Bomber > master proficiency with bombs ( all bombs )
- Chirurgeon > Healing Elixirs ( Healing bomb as basic perk )
- Mutagenist > master proficieicny with unarmed attacks ( while under the effect of a mutagen ).
- Toxicologist > Master proficiency with Bombs ( poison trait ) and Weapons ( only while they are poisoned ).
I'd personally add a level 14 or 16 feat, so everyone can choose what they prefer and even multiple areas if they have a hybrid style (like Bombs at range and Bestial Mutagen for melee). But otherwise I agree that it would help the Alchemist a lot.
For example, having the bomber more proficient with bombs ( accuracy included ) and the Mutagenist more proficient with unarmed attacks, wouldn't stop them from respectively using melee strikes or throwing bombs, but the former would excell in bombing and the second in skirmishing.
I'd agree with you if the option was there at day 1.
But if you for example have a Bomber/Mutagenist using both options, you had to choose between one or the other Research Field. Giving Master Proficiency is a massive change that can clearly push the player into switching Research Fields or even completely review their build. If it's available through feats, the player should be able to keep their build without making a massive retraining.Anyway, if it's a level 14/16 feat, chances are high that you won't take all of them. Bombers will take the bomber's one, Mutagenists the mutagenist's one and only a very small fraction of Alchemists will take multiple ones at quite a high cost (a level 16/18 feat is a high cost).
This whole situation may raise issues as even releasing a class archetype that boosts specific gameplays at the cost of versatility will push some players to review completely their build... So maybe there's no proper solution but allowing every Alchemists to rebuild if the changes are big.
Overall, there are lots of people screaming about the Alchemist and its lack of specialization. They have been very vocal. But there are also a lot of people who are fine with the current Alchemist. If a change happens, it has to be calibrated to satisfy the first population obviously but without affecting too negatively the second population, even if it's a more silent one (as they don't have a reason to complain).
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Hey, I'd love to see the alchemist getting some tweaks or more options, maybe a class archetype or two — but... I was under the impression that the Treasure Vault is a book about a dragon's gigantic treasure vault, as presented by their assistant. Have we heard anything about class specific content? Don't wanna be a buzzkil, but it might be wise to adjust one's own expectations otherwise.
I don't see them squeezing in anything more than a sparse feat here and there, and probably related to crafting. Now, as for items, I think that there's a lot of fun things that can be done within the design space of mutagens, myself! Can't help but feel like only a few of them are usually worth it, and I don't see like that having to be a must, to be honest?
A mutagen that gives you fly speed as you grow wings from your back, but maybe you lose or land speed; as the mutagen does some body horror stuff to grow those wings...
A mutagen that temporarily gives you special senses (i.e scent) but makes you blind or locks you out of other senses...
Mutagens could also grant you special actions for a penalty. Like... I don't know. The whirling body mutagen lets you whirl your torso around, letting you use something like Double Slice but with Natural Attacks. And for that, maybe I dunno, you lose some speed or something. There's some stuff like that already!
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We know we're getting some errata for the alchemist to open them up a little bit for the possibilities of new items, specifically with Chirurgeon and opening up their perpetuals and other choices to include more than just antidote and antiplague. But they also said that the errata would be minimum, so I doubt we'll be getting class archetypes and all of that.
I definitely want to see more ways to add additive-like effects to lower-level bombs. Feats would do that, but also offering an item to do so as an Alchemical Tool would be a nice addition. Giving the alchemists more items to play around with will continue to bring them up in versatility prowess.
Additive effects for poisons.
It's a nice idea, but if it requires a lower level poison like all additives do then it'll be useless to anyone but Poisoners and characters with Potent Poisoner (in a short level bracket). I'd prefer new poisons as they would be usable by everyone.
Yeah, that would limit it but it depends on how good the additive effect would be. Like if there's one to make the poison virulent, that would be worth a -2 poison I think.Additive effects for poisons.It's a nice idea, but if it requires a lower level poison like all additives do then it'll be useless to anyone but Poisoners and characters with Potent Poisoner (in a short level bracket). I'd prefer new poisons as they would be usable by everyone.
Monsters succeed at poison saves on 6-7 in general. A -2 level means that they will succeed on a 3-4. So the poison can be virulent or even instant death, it becomes quite useless at that stage.
Also, if it's good on a non poisoner, it's awesome on a poisoner.
I just don't think poisons should be left out of the additive game. If you want to build for poisons, more options other than more poisons should be a thing. We get new bombs and elixirs as well and they have additives. We can have both for poisons too. Even if it only mainly helps out toxicologist and potent poisoner builds.
Sure, but I'd prefer poison additives to be a bit more complex. Like ones that reduce the damage of the poison but give new bonuses. Or reduce the DC even for a Poisoner. Instead of removing levels and have different effects depending on your Research Field.
TBH, kind of antithetical to this thread but I'd really like to see more alchemical options that appeal to non-alchemists.
Alchemy is a really cool design space, but can't help but feel a lot of alchemical equipment exists in a place where they're being held back, balance wise, by advanced alchemy existing and end up being kind of hard to utilize well if you aren't getting them for free.
I expect the book to have few, if any, class specific options (Except insofar as that alchemy is class specific by definition right now), but if there was any... I'd like to see more options for the alchemical sciences investigator to boost up its alchemy a bit, particularly letting its number of items scale a bit better or a feat to gain access to other forms of alchemical items.
Feels like there's a missing middle ground between an alchemist getting 20-40 alchemical items and an investigator getting like 6.
We know we're getting some errata for the alchemist to open them up a little bit for the possibilities of new items
Well, we knew that... and then they published the errata and there was nothing at all about alchemists in it. So no clue if that's still happening.
We know we're getting some errata for the alchemist to open them up a little bit for the possibilities of new itemsWell, we knew that... and then they published the errata and there was nothing at all about alchemists in it. So no clue if that's still happening.
They posted the next round of errata, which was ready due to tying the errata to new printings. But the Treasure Vault book was still being written and developed at the time they announced their plans for the book. They mentioned several times it was still too early to guarantee that some items would be in the book, so they only gave out details of ones they knew were definitely gonna be in there. So the timing just didn't work out for that round of errata.
That book is also slated to come out in the end of February. So it might be possible they post up errata for the alchemist before the final release of Treasure Vault.
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For me:
-I'd like Elixirs for utility effects like flight, something to enhance your foresight so much as to see the future, tools that can make wall of expanding foam or crystal, etc.
-class archetypes that allow specialization, so the "I want to be really good at spamming bombs", "I want to be the incredible hulk", and "I just wanna dabble and be a swiss army knife" people can all have what they want
-idk what, but something done about alchemical alacrity so that is serves a purpose. Atm it's not even an action economy enhancer since the third item gets put away, so you still need to spend an action to draw it next turn
-something to make the alchemist not suffer as much early on with resources. Later on, I don't find there's many issues with reagents, but early on, the alchemist is really strapped for resources. Something to deal with that would be really nice
Dream Scenario:
Overhaul of Research Fields, with more drawbacks and boons, each field offers something that gives it a unique style. Bombers get Quick Draw for Bombs, can throw them farther on top of adding INT to Splash; Mutagenists can make a Strike after drinking a potion and they delay mutagen penalties for 1 round; Chirurgeons gain a special feature that allows them to craft Elixirs as single target Bombs with Advanced or Quick Alchemy, Toxicologists can apply poisons swiftly and gracefully, they apply poison and can Stride or Step (Alternative Benefit: Feint. Might be a feat).
The trade off? You have less "generalist" reagents (any items can be crafted with these), the rest are specialized reagents, reaching the current implemented maximum number of reagents.
Feats and stuffs added:
Bouncy Elixirs (Bounce them off walls/characters to alter trajectory), Airborne Salve (Elixirs heal everyone in the splash for half the target's damage), Airborne Threat (Converts injury poisons in toxic gases, only affects damaged enemies and those with bleed get a penalty), High Toxicity Tolerance (If you're under the effects of mutagens, you rolls take the better result against poisons and diseases), Mutagen feats that grants feats from martial classes. Homunculi as Alchemist-only "Animal" companions full of crazy powers that are as strong as Druid Companions.
Items that I hope make an appearance: Summoning jars that let you throw monstrosities at people, oozes and plants. Poisons that hurt you but give great enhancements (imagine fighting off death in favor of an insane buff such as +2 to hit and +4 or more to damage?). Items that when thrown cause quick mutations (offensive and defensive stuff), such as growing gills that filter harmful stuff, skin that can withstand heat. Acid that don't deal damage but destroys certain kinds of materials. And more that I don't have time to type.
- Mutagens that you can use on your allies. Currently, Mutagens' drawbacks are way to high compared to the bonuses. I don't know if Mutagens need a buff, a way to get rid of the drawback or an entirely new way of thinking them.
I think there is a place for similar Mutagens with slightly different effects and different drawbacks so you had a choice.
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Stuff I've homebrewed that I'd love to see in game:
-More alchemy bullets. I'd love to see an entire research field actually, but more bullets would be a great start.
-Level 0 alchemy items. Like bullets, I imagine level 0 bombs, elixirs, and other items could be created using infused reagents without expending those reagents.
I'm confused. Why do people expect a new book to errata an old book?
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I'm confused. Why do people expect a new book to errata an old book?
The OP started with unrealistic expectations and the people latched on to that.
I’d love for the Alchemist’s signature items to be revisited. Currently, it becomes redundant and forgotten once you get Field Discovery, but I feel there’s so much untouched potential of having it be a relevant feature past that point.
There are all sorts of cool alchemical items that should have been in the game, but we got stuck with low level stuff with more DC and damage.
It may be that they didn't want a high level alchemist to be able to use their level in cool alchemical effects, and if so, that is a deep design mistake for the class, since alchemy as a lot of really cool potential that is as yet unrealized.
Anyway, here are some higher level alchemical items that might be cool:
Disintegration bombs
Ooze form mutagen (works like the spell)
Immolation mutagen (you gain an energy aura)
High level sun rods that cause really bright, sunlight that dispels darkness effects equal to their level.
Darkness rods (like sunrods, only darkness).
Particulate form elixir (see 1e spell, particulate form).
Tremor sense elixir.
Thanergic inversion elixer (causes you to heal with negative energy, get harmed with positive energy-- useful for Blood Lords).
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the biggest thing i want, and my go to homebrew for alchemests is making it a free action to draw an alchemical item, not just bombs, and not as a feat but backed in level one feature, you dont need to use extra actions to get your options out
no pazio bas specifically stated alchemist are getting errata alongside this book we just don't know how muchI'm confused. Why do people expect a new book to errata an old book?The OP started with unrealistic expectations and the people latched on to that.
We know that the research fields are getting new options for their perpetual infusions. It is 99% likely that is the only errata and absolutely nothing else is changing.
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I'll be honest. In a book called "Treasure Vault" that is supposedly about items from a dragon's hoard I do not expect to see a single alchemical items. Except maybe ways to deal with dragons (resist energy and similar).
The advertising blurb for the product specifically mentions an entire section on alchemy with "over 100 new alchemical items"
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I consider the alchemist a lost cause already so I'm more interested in elixirs that work with the Investigator methodology, to be honest. I was very annoyed when I saw that the War Blood Mutagen has a "no concentrate checks" clause that seems to exist only to prevent Investigators from using it.
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I'll be honest. In a book called "Treasure Vault" that is supposedly about items from a dragon's hoard I do not expect to see a single alchemical items. Except maybe ways to deal with dragons (resist energy and similar).
That type of book to me sounds like the place to put a bunch of magical weapons, armor, and other miscellaneous items. All or most very shiny and glittery.
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* P.S. I agree that Alchemist needs more items, I just don't see this book as being the place for them. Will be surprised if they do add some.
One of the few main things we know about this book is the fact there's an entire chapter in there called "Alchemy Unleashed", which includes over 100 new alchemical items. They also mentioned they coinciding Treasure Vault with an errata pass of the CRB that'll address some stuff with the Alchemist class, allowing the Chirurgeon subclass to take advantage of a new category of elixirs coming to Treasure Vault called cocktails.
There's also a bunch of expanded and variant crafting rules in another chapter of the book, to let people play with how they can change crafting up (like being able to make a bunch of arrows in a single day, rather than in 4 days).
Senior Designer
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One of the few main things we know about this book is the fact there's an entire chapter in there called "Alchemy Unleashed", which includes over 100 new alchemical items.[...]I'll be honest. In a book called "Treasure Vault" that is supposedly about items from a dragon's hoard I do not expect to see a single alchemical items. Except maybe ways to deal with dragons (resist energy and similar).[...]
I will also note, it's an underworld dragon's lair.
One of the few main things we know about this book is the fact there's an entire chapter in there called "Alchemy Unleashed", which includes over 100 new alchemical items.[...]I'll be honest. In a book called "Treasure Vault" that is supposedly about items from a dragon's hoard I do not expect to see a single alchemical items. Except maybe ways to deal with dragons (resist energy and similar).[...]
I will also note, it's an underworld dragon's lair.
Thank you for the assist as always, Michael! <333
Signature items likely feel a little out of place because they were added to the alchemist with an errata pass to help with their low-level resource scarcity.
I also think something cool could be done with them, though. A little feat support could help a lot.
Yeah, that's exactly why I want it to get another pass since I think it was a cool idea. Instead of just increasing their resource directly, they came up with a neat little bonus mechanic. But like you said, it's just there to patch the lower levels, so it sadly and awkwardly just fades into nothing when its purpose was met. Fair, but it does feel out of place as a consequence.
Even with just the removal of this one line restriction allows it to supplement Field Discovery instead of overlapping with it.
This new signature item must be on your research field's list of possible signature items.
As relatively minute as that bonus might be, having signature items relevant at all levels just feels nice.
Hm. I noticed today that Nonat1s published, a few months apart, two YouTube videos on the alchemist: the first said essentially "alchemists suck!" and the second one said "alchemist is the best class ever!" I wonder what changed his mind. :-) He has told me (not on this particular subject) that he reserves the right to change his mind about anything at any time. :-)
Hm. I noticed today that Nonat1s published, a few months apart, two YouTube videos on the alchemist: the first said essentially "alchemists suck!" and the second one said "alchemist is the best class ever!" I wonder what changed his mind. :-) He has told me (not on this particular subject) that he reserves the right to change his mind about anything at any time. :-)
He probably read more about the class and alchemical items and reached that conclusion.
For me it was the opposite. The more I read and understood it, less enthusiastic about it I became. Then I saw it in play, on an AP that should've enabled it to shine no less, and it just became a disappointment. There wasn't a single fight in the entire 11 levels we ran that the Alchemist felt justified, let alone pivotal, to our success. Quite the contrary, there was a battle the player was very frustrated and just bailed, the remaining three characters (Monk, Range and Necro Wizard) finished the battle despite being wounded (roughly 50%~60% HP) against two hurt strong enemies (Alchemy Golems) and three healthy mooks.
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Seconded on the bomb specialist archetype. We've got one for poisons and healing elixirs, there's room for a bomb archetype.For me:
-I'd like Elixirs for utility effects like flight, something to enhance your foresight so much as to see the future, tools that can make wall of expanding foam or crystal, etc.
-class archetypes that allow specialization, so the "I want to be really good at spamming bombs", "I want to be the incredible hulk", and "I just wanna dabble and be a swiss army knife" people can all have what they want
-idk what, but something done about alchemical alacrity so that is serves a purpose. Atm it's not even an action economy enhancer since the third item gets put away, so you still need to spend an action to draw it next turn
-something to make the alchemist not suffer as much early on with resources. Later on, I don't find there's many issues with reagents, but early on, the alchemist is really strapped for resources. Something to deal with that would be really nice
I would love a bomb archetype like poisoner and herbalist, but I was more angling at a class archetype that lowers your non bomb Alchemy level in exchange for martial bomb proficiency, a mutagenists with martial unarmed attack and weapon prof, toxicologist with martial weapons, etc. Basically something to make the class more focused on one type of thing for better combat ability.
I personally like playing the current alchemist class and mostly would just like some future proofing in the research field perpetuals (my current alchemist would love access to perpetual blight bombs for RP reasons) and some of the quirks to be fixed, but I know there's quite a few people who also want to play mad bomber/mr hyde builds like you could in 1e and class archetypes would be a solid way to deliver this