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Hey guys! So I noticed that on here and on the subreddit there’s a rather massive amount of negativity surrounding this book, and it seems like it’s causing a sort of negative echo chamber feedback loop so I want to try to break that up a little!
So what’s some positives for War of Immortals? What do you like? What is your favorite thing about it? I’ll start!
I love the Animist! Genuinely one of the coolest designs I’ve seen for anything in a tabletop. In fact I think both classes are absolutely masterworks of game design.
And I know this is probably controversial, but I actually really like the Vindicator! It’s a bit clunky mechanically but I’ve been playing one with my roommate who has his pdf copy and it’s absolutely so much fun to roleplay and I’m doing really good damage!
I know this book isn’t perfect, but I also just want to know what people like after the last week or so of hearing every negative opinion a person could have on the book from every community.
Let’s hype up the community for what is - for the most part - a pretty great release as we wait for the full public launch!
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The only reason I've been so critical is I actually like a lot of the stuff introduced here and it needs only a liiiiiiiiiiittle bit of work to be excellent all around.
But stuff I like unconditionally?
- The Exemplar
- The Animist
- The Avenger
- The Warrior of Legend
- The Mythic Destinies
- The new normal and mythic items
- All the fiction in the book
Overall I'm very happy with it, warts and all.
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Exemplar is amazing, I like pretty much everything in the book. I just wish some of it was more thought out but Exemplar is just probably my favorite class now.
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I do think most of the criticisms come from people that are actually liking the overall aspects of the book but would need things to be just a little different for it to be perfect. I really didn't like the vindicator and I was hyped for it (as people would think due to my profile pic) but in all honesty I was half-expecting the avenger to be the true inquisitor of PF2e and I really like that one! Exemplar and animist are also fantastic and the last couple of days have been about theorycrafting different exemplar builds. I also really like that the animist is one of those few casters that actually has interesting feats that aren't your average "You do this thing about spellcasting but slightly better a few times per day" that most casters have. Even if its unpopular I also like the exemplar dedication even if its clearly overtuned because its the perfect gateway to hand ikons as loot for non-exemplar characters. Imagine a campaign that begins with the PCs finding a stash of legendary weapons, with each of them getting one ikon from exemplars of ages of the past.
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Oh I know people in general like the book, obviously they wouldn’t be so passionate about it if they didn’t, but it does feel like the negative talking points have strongly outweighed the positive.
It seems like the negativity is effecting those that don’t currently have some way to access the book into dreading its release whether because the mythic stuff is disappointing or because the exemplar dedication is overturned, or any number of talking points that come out.
I do think that there’s a lot the book could do better, but I want to balance the discussion a bit. That way people can see what’s great about this book - like the lore, the class stuff, the combat fishing pole - and balance that against the negativity.
Again, I’m not looking to disarm valid criticism, but valid criticism without equally valid praise makes the whole product look worthless for those from the outside looking in, if that makes sense?
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Paizo cooked with Mythic Destinies. I have many criticisms about the book but if there's one thing Paizo did right with the Mythic Rules it was the fantasy of being someone who is larger than life and the ability to play/run higher-power campaigns where you do stuff like fight demigods and ascend into divinity.
There is something really really great here, which makes me really really desperate for an errata.
I'm positive it needs errata.They’ve already stated it will have errata in the fall.
I would like to know where you read this from. I need something to get my hopes up.
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Mythic broke first edition for my group and made us give up on it as a system, not just because the mythic rules themselves were so imbalanced, but in playing mythic, we realized how big the fractures in the underlying system were and how much work had to go into trying to patch them up, not to mention how impossible it was to keep track of high level play and to keep monsters in a threatening, but not instant TPK space.
I really like that the new mythic rules in PF2 are not going to break the underlying system. Even though it is unlikely I end up using much from this book for a very long time, there are great parts here that can be detached from other things very easily and still be useful and fun. It was exactly the right approach to the concept of mythic.
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I would like to know where you read this from. I need something to get my hopes up.I'm positive it needs errata.They’ve already stated it will have errata in the fall.
The alternate mythic rules document contains some minor errata and at the top of that page it says that errata for WoI will be released for Fall 2024 Errata cycle.
The alternate mythic rules document contains some minor errata and at the top of that page it says that errata for WoI will be released for Fall 2024 Errata cycle.I would like to know where you read this from. I need something to get my hopes up.I'm positive it needs errata.They’ve already stated it will have errata in the fall.
That's cool. I really hope that errata will, at the very least, fix the most egregious parts of the book, like Mythic Resilience and the lack of Kineticist support. I feel alot more optimistic about WoI now.
Is there some place where I can read more about this errata cycle?
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I don't have the book, but I haven't seen almost any complaints about the Animist, except that it's complex, which most people are taking to be a good thing. Pretty cool since I remember it being heavily criticized in the playtest.
I will concede that the reactions here alongside my initial trepidations means I'll probably skip on this book. Maybe I'll grab it as a pdf in the future when there's a Humble Bundle or something.
The complaints about the animist are that liturgist is 5x as good a Medium, which is 2x as good as the other two subclasses. It seems more out of whack than past complaints of poor subclass balancing.
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Liturgist animist w/ embodiment of battle vessel spell and the Grudge Strike feat is what everyone wishes the warpriest cleric and battle oracle were.
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Good: Exemplar, Animist [and archetype], Nephilim, Seneschal and the new weapons are good. I Actually like the Exemplar archetype for enabling many playstyles at 2nd that would otherwise have to jump through a bunch of hoops for or wait much later for: some might not like that, but then the mythic rules aren't for everyone either and I have a much better chance of getting to use the archetype than mythic.
Neutral: Mythic rules are something that'll take the right game to play so in all honesty, I have even bothered looking at them. When/if I find a game using them, I'll look at them. Warrior of Legend and Bloodrager seem fine but aren't for ones I'd enjoy playing.
Bad: Avenger
So for me, most of the "normal" content is a win for me.
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Even if its unpopular I also like the exemplar dedication even if its clearly overtuned because its the perfect gateway to hand ikons as loot for non-exemplar characters. Imagine a campaign that begins with the PCs finding a stash of legendary weapons, with each of them getting one ikon from exemplars of ages of the past.
I think the Archetype is a good means for a 'mini' mythic game: give everyone Exemplar archetype with free Archetype can give a stronger feel without the jump into full mythic.
Even if its unpopular I also like the exemplar dedication even if its clearly overtuned because its the perfect gateway to hand ikons as loot for non-exemplar characters. Imagine a campaign that begins with the PCs finding a stash of legendary weapons, with each of them getting one ikon from exemplars of ages of the past.I think the Archetype is a good means for a 'mini' mythic game: give everyone Exemplar archetype with free Archetype can give a stronger feel without the jump into full mythic.
I wonder if that's intentional, as the power bump is too obvious to have been missed, right? But as you note, it's also a good half-Mythic route which kinda has to be in this book if any. Maybe it's Rare, much like options in Book of Dead; both with abilities technically/barely okay for their level, but out of sync with core game.
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I think the negatives are getting a lot of attention because there are some really glaring ones, which raises yet more questions about Paizo's ability to actually polish content at the rate it's coming out. But in general there's a lot of good stuff here.
I loved Exemplar in the playtest and the final version has continued that love affair.
Animist looks great fun. Super flavorful, lots of options, multiple play styles that should be viable. That's exactly what I want out of a class and I'm pretty excited to make one. I don't want to say its my favorite spellcasting class before I've actually played it, but just conceptually? It's definitely up there. Considering I didn't really "get it" during the playtest at all, super positive about it now.
Flip side: It's just gotten me frustrated all over again at what was done to Oracle. Look at Battle Oracle and compare to the melee focused Animist, and it's like they're written by different companies.
That's not a negative on War of Immortals of course, since its class turned out pretty good. But it certainly doesn't feel great.
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Yeah I do think we're still feeling the fallout of the remaster. Polish goes out the window when you have to redesign your entire game system and do 4 unplanned releases (Player Core, Player Core 2, Monster Core, GM Core) over the span of a year and alter your setting to avoid lawsuits.
This is the real reason they got rid of Gorbacz.
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This is the real reason they got rid of Gorbacz.
Yeah I do think we're still feeling the fallout of the remaster. Polish goes out the window when you have to redesign your entire game system and do 4 unplanned releases (Player Core, Player Core 2, Monster Core, GM Core) over the span of a year and alter your setting to avoid lawsuits.
Yeah I should not have phrased it that way, that was not meant as criticism.
(whoosh) Gorbacz, prolific, long-time poster from sometime ago, was banned a couple of times. He's Polish.
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I have seen nobody bashing the Exemplar as the class for egocentrical powergamers, whereas this was a huge argument during the playtest (and even before).
In fact, most seem to highly praise it.
Thank you, Paizo.
I think the criticism wasn't about powergaming but rather that the exemplar feels too protagonist-y or, as others would say, suffers from main character syndrome. At least thats what I meant to say back in the playtest, which are criticisms I still have even today, but I really like mythology and anime so this class is like the perfect match for that. Still, I'd probably ignore most of the "you have a god inside you" angle and allow for much more flavor freedom with the exemplars in my table. For example, you enter the ancient tomb of elven hero of legends and somehow come in contact with its spirit which bestows upon you his potential, or a much more sorcer-y approach with having one of your ancestors or even yourself coming on contact with a divine artifact which awoke this supernatural powers within you. Luckily the problems with the exemplar are only flavor related which ultimately are based on setting and/or player and GM preferences.
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I think the underlying design of the Bloodrager looks good (I still have to playtest it) I'm just super bummed out that they didn't even try to carry forward the flavor from 1e. Like, not even a little bit.
I was very happy to see that the Exemplar will comfortably accept most of the awakened animal/dragon PC concepts I wanted to use it for. I'm looking forward to digging into it soon.
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I enjoy every snippet of the lore I've heard about.
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I love the flavor and lore and mini campaign hooks built into the mythic monsters section, there's some really great information and inspirational material there.
In general huge fan of a lot of the stuff they built surrounding mythic. A few criticisms, a few things that are obviously in error, but mythic was something I was expecting to fully write off before the book came out and I've been very pleasantly surprised by much of the material.
Exemplar and Animist feel genuinely cool and interesting in design, excited to see both at my tables. The Starfinder playtest classes are a little lukewarm so its nice to see the publishing some really exciting stuff here.
I think the criticism wasn't about powergaming but rather that the exemplar feels too protagonist-y or, as others would say, suffers from main character syndrome. At least thats what I meant to say back in the playtest, which are criticisms I still have even today, but I really like mythology and anime so this class is like the perfect match for that. Still, I'd probably ignore most of the "you have a god inside you" angle and allow for much more flavor freedom with the exemplars in my table. For example, you enter the ancient tomb of elven hero of legends and somehow come in contact with its spirit which bestows upon you his potential, or a much more sorcer-y approach with having one of your ancestors or even yourself coming on contact with a divine artifact which awoke this supernatural powers within you. Luckily the problems with the exemplar are only flavor related which ultimately are based on setting and/or player and GM preferences.I have seen nobody bashing the Exemplar as the class for egocentrical powergamers, whereas this was a huge argument during the playtest (and even before).
In fact, most seem to highly praise it.
Thank you, Paizo.
IDK its played up a little but "you have some divine magic inside you" is basically the same premise nephilim and sorcerers run off of. An exemplar is only as main-charactery as you want it to be.
In some respect I feel like the rare tag is contributing to the feeling that the class is too special more than helping, which is a shame because it's a really neat amrtial.
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greystone could you tell me what don't like about the Avenger? I do not like that they made it tied to a god though it could be in trusting I just wanted the martial slayer.
LOL I made a stupid mistake. Avenger was meant to be in the like category and Vindicator in the dislike one.
Avenger I like the deity, as that give access to favored weapons: what's not to like about sneak attacking with a great pick, bastard sword or polearm is pretty cool. A second str option for thieves is also a boon.
Vindicator needs to hunt prey, then hit with the mark [using at at under caster to hits] vs AC to get their damage buff. IMO, it's a bit action intensive and prone to being shut down by high AC targets.
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Avenger, Hero of Legends, and Animist have all moved into the "looking for an excuse to make a character with these" territory. (Heck, I have a PFS L2 Cleric of Achaekek that I'm strongly considering rebuilding as an Avenger.)
I don't like Rangers -- that's a style opinion, not a comment on their effectiveness. I think a Vindicator could be a kind of Ranger that I dislike least, so I'll probably try one out sometime.
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This is just going off of stuff I've heard since I don't have the book yet, but there are a lot of nice things.
- Animist got interesting new spirits that do a good job of rounding things out for the class, and having more consistent proficiency progression is nice. There's also a way to put a "face" on your spirits with the familiar feat and associated subclass.
- Exemplar has better support for unarmed and a variety of tricksters, plus more ikons. The larger-than-life feeling stuck around.
- A really nice variety of mythic destinies, all with unique immortality mechanics.
- Godling lets you have a follower, grant spells, etc., and eventually become a full deity! Huge fan of this one.
- Archfiend gives you your own domain? With minions? Love that!
- Mythic makes you great with any skill check you need in a pinch, right from the outset. None of the "I got the exact same result" business that we get with hero points, no saving one so you can survive getting dropped, just sweet, sweet "make that only-trained off-stat deception check that you need to work shine".
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Reading through vindicator I've enjoyed it. It's a fairly unique gish (as is bloodrager). Honestly all the new class archetypes have been a real treat compared to what came before; the mythic rules and new classes were just gravy to me. Mechanically, it's my favorite book they've made. I'm happy to be in a new era of class archetypes for the system.
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The Animist is DEFINITELY making me wanna retrain my Age of Ashes Magus/Flames Oracle into a Liturgist with Steward of Stone & Flame & Crafter in the Vault...though I may do a bit of reflavoring to the apparitions to be more like various divine influences rather than sapient spirits. Not sure if Witness to Ancient Battles would be redundant with Free Archetype Fighter or not...
I really, really like animist's whole deal. Animist, and the covenants that are releasing in Divine Mysteries, have me more excited to play a divine character than I have been in, well ever.
Ooh, I hadn’t heard about covenants yet, what are those?
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I really, really like animist's whole deal. Animist, and the covenants that are releasing in Divine Mysteries, have me more excited to play a divine character than I have been in, well ever.Ooh, I hadn’t heard about covenants yet, what are those?
Covenants were described as a divine grouping brand new in Divine Mysteries. Similar to pantheons, but not necessarily needing a god in the group to be able to grant divine power. An example covenant is the "Breath of the Endless Sky", which draws their divine power from air elementals, jaathoom (air genies), spirits of air, and the Plane of Air itself. All of these beings come together, and by combining their power they're able to grant power much like a god does.
Covenants could also have gods in their groupings too, such as "Good Neighbors" having Cayden Cailean, Erastil, Sarenrae and Torag, but it also includes household spirits.
As someone who has been playing Inquisitors of ideals for years, it’s great to see Paizo caught back up with themselves…
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Wait... I thought playing a Cleric/Champion of a cause was ALWAYS a thing. One can have faith in something besides a deity, after all.
On a more related to this thread note:
I'm happy for the War Gavel and Fishing Rod weapons.
I'm also very glad that the Mythic system is different from 1st editions.
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Wait... I thought playing a Cleric/Champion of a cause was ALWAYS a thing. One can have faith in something besides a deity, after all.
On a more related to this thread note:
I'm happy for the War Gavel and Fishing Rod weapons.
I'm also very glad that the Mythic system is different from 1st editions.
I don't think it's been explicitly allowed or expicitly disallowed.
edit: thinking on it, I think clerics and paladins of the green faith are canon, so it's always been possible, though not supported with many offical options.