Mangaholic13's page

So yeah, what Pathfinder products are you guys wanting to see in the future?

Note, when I say future, the don't necessarily mean within this same year.

I'm hoping for some of the following:

An update/replacement for the World Guide
Whatever will be replacing Secrets of Magic (I know many are hoping the book just gets remastered... but I'm not seeing it. It has 8 pages dedicated to the Schools of Magic that have since been excised).
Dark Archive Remastered
Lost Omens Golden Road
Probably a replacement book for Lost Omens Impossible Lands, since the war between Nex and Geb is heating back up.

It might help to think of playing a Summoner as like playing Yuna from Final Fantasy 10.

Squark wrote:

Kelseus wrote:

YuriP wrote:

If you are playing as elf there's Elemental Wrath too.

It allows to cast the old Acid Splash but with the energy damage of your choice and without somatic (manipulate) part.

It's just in a bit grey zone if it will still uses the Acid Splash as basis or if switch to Caustic Blast. You have to talk with your GM to decide. Each version has its advantages and disadvantage for remastered magus. But both won't trigger manipulate reactions.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Both Acid Splash and Caustic Blast have somatic/manipulate.

Elemntal Wrath removes the somatic component (and thus the manipulate trait nested in it) from acid splash. RAW there's nothing that let's you replace acid splash with caustic blast, though. In a home game, you can argue for spirit successors replacing their original versions, but that's entirely GM discretion. In, say, PFS, though, you are stuck with your (modified) acid splash, for good or ill.

In the case of magus is for good once Acid Splash is a spell that uses attack roll while Caustic Blast uses basic reflex save. So you can take the advantage of faster proficiency progression of martial proficiency and use the weapon item bonus to hit.

...Except Elemental Wrath is legacy content.

Again, I assume Rahadoum will be more fleshed out, and likely given more nuance, in Lost Omens Golden Road... whenever that comes out.

Powers128 wrote:

Just one. There is a 14th level feat in the talisman dabbler archetype that allows you to attach two at a time though.

Is there a way to pull out another one and attach it in combat? And if so how many actions are we talking about?

Normally, affixing a Talisman is an exploration action that takes 10 minutes.

All well and good, I suppose.

But given he's so pro dragon death, why are wicked dragons in his area of concern?

Well, as the intro area notes:

Areas of Concern: The topics that the deity cares most

deeply about.
Edicts: These are things that the deity urges their
followers to do. Followers must adhere to these as closely
as possible if they wish to gain favor with this deity.
Anathema: These are things that are absolutely
abhorrent to the deity; committing these acts will likely
earn a follower disfavor or punishment.

As it states, an Area of Concern is something the deity cares about, doesn't mean they'll spare them, though.

Heck, the last paragraph of his entry notes the following:

Dahak is notorious for not maintaining love for his

followers. He will just as readily revoke his gifts in favor
of another worshipper if it suits him. This, in turn, has
become a key teaching of his church: trust only in your own
power and your own ability to reach your goals. While this
seems like a lonely and alienating attitude to most, many
worshippers of Dahak believe that it is simply the way of
all mortal endeavors.

So if I had to guess, his attitude is as follows:

Also also, it's not like he has "killing wicked dragons" as an Anathema.

Mangaholic13 wrote:

I just ask this because there is nothing stating it that I could find.

On Archive of Nethys, it treats Spellstrike as an activity, which causes you to Cast A Spell as part of it. There isn't any mention about how Spellstrike is or isn't affected by using a spell with the Manipulate trait.

I just wanted to know what the opinion is on this (until, you know, Magus gets Remastered).

If you look at the sidebar on page 415 Player Core it explains that subordinate actions keep their traits even when they are called for as part of an activity.

So stride as part of sudden charge would still trigger reactive strikes because of the move trait, and casting a spell as part of spellstrike still triggers reactive strike cause of the manipulate trait.

In contrast Channel Smite specifically removes the manipulate trait from the spell cast in the activity.

Considering Channel Smite didn't include that wording in the Premaster... How much you all want to bet that Remastered Spellstrike might also include a "the spell doesn't have the manipulate trait when cast this way" in the text?

Arcane spells that don't have Manipulate trait.

It probably doesn't include legacy spells that would also not provoke when cast directly.

Edit: Or it might instead be including legacy spells that would provoke because no legacy spells include the Manipulate trait. I'm sure someone can fix that bug in my search criteria. It's late and I am going to bed.

...I had no idea Nethys could actually exclude things form searches. Thanks for sharing two big pieces of knowledge, Finoan.

Also, can confirm it's the later, as it is showing spells from "Secrets of Magic", "Dark Archives", and "Firebrands" at least.

So, yeah, the subject is the question:
Which spells, as of the Remaster, don't have the Manipulate Trait?

Anyone got a list or something of the spells without the trait? Because that new Magus Hybrid Study that will be coming in Rival Academies has got me in a Gish mood.

I just ask this because there is nothing stating it that I could find.

On Archive of Nethys, it treats Spellstrike as an activity, which causes you to Cast A Spell as part of it. There isn't any mention about how Spellstrike is or isn't affected by using a spell with the Manipulate trait.

I just wanted to know what the opinion is on this (until, you know, Magus gets Remastered).

So... This might be a dumb question, but I felt it was worth asking:

If a Magus uses a spell that has the Manipulate Trait to spellstrike, does that open them up to a reactive strike?

I think the mention of the OGL is because Psionics are a D&D property.

From the Divine Mysteries web supplement:

Areas of concern "Destruction, greed, wicked dragons". Cool. Pretty classic for a formerly Evil dragon deity.
Edicts "Kill dragons, destroy things at your whim, study past disasters"

Bolded for emphasis. Not kill benevolent dragons.
Kill. Dragons.

Seems odd that his concerns include those which he seeks to destroy.

Is this any intentional shift from the older "Kill metallic dragons" towards kill all dragons? If so, why are wicked dragons a particular area of concern?

Or is it meant to be more akin to Kill benevolent dragons?

Well, considering that the write up specifically notes that Dahak is "notorious for not maintain love for his followers", I think it wouldn't be surprising that he'd encourage his draconic followers to kill each other to make sure he only gets the strongest to help him kill Apsu.

Otherwise, I also won't be surprised that, given his love of destroying whatever the rest of his family creates, that Dahak sees each dragon slain as another "middle claw" to Apsu and the rest.

Here is some info from the Firebrands book on Rahadoum. It doesn't mention if they still do or do not do slavery but considering it called out other organizations and Paizo's general stance I would say they don't. They are plenty oppressive as it as being an anti-theist that sees a shelynite praying for love something to be imprisoned, exiled, or potentially even executed for.

Firebrands wrote:

Rahadoum: The nation where practicing any faith is outlawed has seen several acts of vandalism and protests since Firebrands infiltrated the area in hopes of breaking the mandate on religious freedom. Talks are ongoing between members of the ruling council over whether the Firebrands should be treated as a zealous ideological movement akin to faith, though complications have arisen recently when a captured Firebrand confessed that they were looking into rumors of Chelaxian plans to retake Khari

Firebrands wrote:

Rahadoum’s Pure Legion rigorously enforces the nation’s Laws of Mortality, imprisoning, exiling, or executing preachers who violate its prohibitions on proselytizing. A distinguished debate club in the city of Manaket called the Roosters’ Perch recently spent several fraught weeks debating the moral merits of these punishments.

Rather ironic, and hypocritical, considering the Laws of Mortality can be considered a ''zealous ideological movement akin to faith''...

One thing I would think from the perspective of a follower of the Laws of Mortality is that while you are not supposed to treat a God as more important than a Person, you probably also should not treat a God as less important than a person. Specifically, if you're a Rahadoumi who travels outside the country, there will be many contexts where you defer to local mundane authorities because they are in fact authorities. You're not going to start a revolution every time someone tells you not to wear blue within the city walls or that you can't sell your goods here, you have to go to the market. When local authorities tell you these sorts of things, you mostly go along with it because you're not in charge.

Part of the point of the Laws of Mortality is that outsiders shouldn't have control over things in the terrestrial universe. But I don't think it necessarily implies that outsiders shouldn't have significant control in the Outer Sphere. There is a difference between "Pharasma comes to your town and tells you to do something" and "you go to Pharasma's court and she tells you to do something."

Except there are people who go out to proselytize the Laws of Mortality to people outside Rahadoum.

Granted, who knows? The Laws of Mortality might be more nuanced and flexible then I think.
We'll probably have to wait until ''Lost Omens: Golden Road'' to find out.

Castilliano wrote:

Mangaholic13 wrote:

It's also important to remember that the Laws of Mortality are anti-Deist, not anti-religious.

Religions that don't worship a Deity are accepted and, in the case of the Green Faith, welcomed even.

Also... can't remember where I read this, but I could swear that Rahadoum does have a temple to Pharasma there. The Pharasman's just put away the religious symbols, don't proselytize, and in return the Pure Legion overlooks them since they know a lot about conducting funerals and slaying undead.
I might be wrong though. As I said, I can't remember where I heard that...

I was just thinking to ask about non-divine religions, so thanks. With Occult, Primal, & maybe Arcane (?) religions & philosophies out there one could fulfill their religious needs w/o resorting to gods, or even worship. Some scenarios have painted Rahdoun as prone to scourges solved in other countries by divine casters, but that doesn't seem to track if all the other casters are present (plus their scientific advancements). Maybe it's about quantity? Or divine wrath?

How would the government powers react if a non-divine religion started flourishing, one with all the cult & tribalism issues, but w/o a divine entity to blame? Or multiple battling religions? Seems they might respond with violence to those too being as that's their MO, and it fits their original principle of hating the wars & damage of philosophical differences. Hmm.

As well as misotheists, one might think of Rahadouni as antilatrists, against worship. Not sure how much ancestor & nature religions would incite their ire.

I'm not sure where Magnaholic is getting their information from, but it appears to conflict with this description of the Laws of Mortality.

The edicts include "challenge religious power and spread" and anathema include "solicit or receive divine or religious aid".

All of which for me implies any kind of divine magic or religion is a...

LEGAL RAHADOUMI FAITHS

The Laws of Mortality prohibit obedience
to a god—not faith or divine magic itself—
and Rahadoumi are fond of studying
and debating different philosophies and
doctrines. Among Rahadoum’s many
legal faiths, the Green Faith is prominent,
with druids in high demand to help heal
citizens and farmland ravaged by drought
and disease. Occultism and astrology are
also acceptable. Diabolism and genie
binding are permitted so long as the
mortal is the master. Even agnosticism
can be tolerated, as long as it contains no
direct worship, as can reincarnation faiths
like Sangpotshi

This. This is where I got my information, Claxon.

Furthermore, Divine Mysteries states in the Laws of Mortality page's last paragraph that Druids that don't worship a Deity are welcomed... but also viewed with suspicion for the overlap shared by Primal and Divine magic (never mind that Occult also shares an overlap with Divine, yet Rahadoum loves Occult casters... the hypocrites.) Meanwhile, Deist Druids are somehow more hated than Clerics...
They're also not too friendly to Divine Sorcerers... And I'm guessing Witches, but they might just hate Witches in general, by seeing their Patrons as a form of deity.

Also, I feel like any follower of the Laws of Mortality is in direct violation of its own Edicts and Anathema, given the rather religious zealotry surrounding it...

It's also important to remember that the Laws of Mortality are anti-Deist, not anti-religious.
Religions that don't worship a Deity are accepted and, in the case of the Green Faith, welcomed even.

Also... can't remember where I read this, but I could swear that Rahadoum does have a temple to Pharasma there. The Pharasman's just put away the religious symbols, don't proselytize, and in return the Pure Legion overlooks them since they know a lot about conducting funerals and slaying undead.
I might be wrong though. As I said, I can't remember where I heard that...

vyshan wrote:

Alatrism or alatry (Greek: from the privative ἀ- + λατρεία (latreia) = worship) is the recognition of the existence of one or more gods, but with a deliberate lack of worship of any deity. Typically, it includes the belief that religious rituals have no supernatural significance and that gods ignore all prayers and worship.

Of course the Greeks have a term for it!

Oh, those Greeks and their love of being all, "You don't have a word for it? Such silly little uncultured barbarians!"

I'd think Mesmerist would be an archetype, like Cavalier.

So... Am I the only one that finds it hypocritical of Rahadoum treats the gods as tyrants
AND YET THEY PRACTICE SLAVERY!?

I hope we will see additional thaumaturge implements one day! Something like a pendulum implement that gives a thaumaturge some small enchantment powers would be especially cool.

A pendulum would have more to do with dousing if you gave it to a thaumaturge though.

I'd like for Magus to have access to Bespell Strikes feat.

I want an archetype that lets you use Unfurling Brocade's base ability of turning a basic cloth/scarf into a weapon.

I do admit, we could use more options for "Throwing", "Sling", and "Flail" weapon users.

I'd also love a bit more options for a weapon using Monk.

exequiel759 wrote:

I envision aether's elemental blast dealing bludgeoning and slashing (I think that's the only non-elemental combination that the current kineticist lacks), gaining access to force damage if they take the Versatile Blast feats. It would also likely be a d6 / 60 feet range thing.

I would pick Mental over Force. Aether is often connected to psychic forces, which are what would fuel a Mental Blast.

Force is for "powerful and pure magical energy". That would be better for a Warlock... which I'm surprised Paizo hasn't done yet.

PF 2e already has these "Warlocks", of which you speak:

To elaborate to ElementalofCuteness, we're not getting ninja because it's considered too culturally coded.

I still want a ninja equivalent though. I suppose giving Operator access to Qi spells via a class archetype might be a good approach, though.

...We already have ninjas though. It all depends on your preferred flavor of 'Ninja'.

Mundane ninja: Rogue.
Magical ninja: Laughing Shadow Magus.
Poisoning ninja: Stealthy Alchemist.
Naruto ninja: Stealthy Kineticist.
Martial Arts ninja: Stealthy Monk.

You don't necessarily need a "Ninja" class to play a ninja.

So... I was watching the Paizo LIVE for Rival Academies, and when they were talking about Remaster Runelord, a thought occurred to me:

Considering the Runelords are associated with Polearms as a weapon... shouldn't there be a Polearm/Spear Hybrid Study for the Magus? The basic idea would be 'if the Runelords had Magus bodyguards'.
 

I want a Wisdom Psychic.

Agreed. I even have ideas for Wisdom-based Unconscious Minds:

I also want more Unconscious Minds. Particularly something based on summoning, mind blasts, or speaking with the dead.

I also want to see an Astral Kineticist...

Okay, here are my thoughts, personally on this announcement:

The Necromancer:
I had been saying on the class options thread that I'd like to see a Not Totally Evil option for performing necromancy, and this might sort of be it.
Honestly, when I heard about the thralls, I started thinking of the necromancers from Diablo.

Next, The Runesmith:
"I prepared Explosion Runes this morning". That is all.
...But seriously, given the importance of runes in the setting and lore, it's nice to see a full class revolving around them that isn't just another caster class.

Obviously, we'll have to wait until Monday (or hear from folks attending PAX Unplugged).

...Like this guy: KingOogaTonTon

Actually that's a goblin dog, not a dog. You can tell by the rodent-like teeth and tail. The pustules on its shoulder also show up on the 2E Bestiary/Monster Core art of the goblin dog (Though the 1E Bestiary art lacks this trait).

My boyfriend actually had the same sentiment when we got our hands on War of Immortals. Took a look to see what he meant when I found myself explaining what I just did above.

Huh. That makes it simultaneously less funny, and more funny.

It is less funny in that Fumbus is riding an animal fully acceptable for his race to be expected to ride.

It is more funny in that I and your boyfriend came to the same silly, if incorrect, conclusion upon seeing the art.

So...
Anyone else find it hilarious that Fumbus was picked to be the Iconic that represents the Apocalypse Rider Mythic Archetype in War Of Immortals. And for his apocalypse mount, the artist chose to give him a dog.

I want an intelligence KAS divine caster. Aka, a necromancer in all senses of the term. Including the literal translation of "dead prophecy", speaking to the dead

Was playing the new Dragon Age, and the mourn watch have captured my imagination

That could be interesting.

I'd personally like to see a group of necromancers who aren't part of the Whispering Way or Urgathoa. A sort of 'Hallowed' necromancer option, for those who want to create undead for goodness and send the restless dead to the afterlife.
Kind of like Lizard Priest from Goblin Slayer.

Also, wouldn't mind a caster archetype that focuses on magic used in funerary rites (that is also effective against undead, abominations, and possibly spirits).
I'm thinking something inspired by the Thaumaturges (which eventually upgrade to Black Mages) in Final Fantasy 14.

** spoiler omitted **

I know for a fact that Tiamat got removed for a simple reason: the removal of OGL content.

Because, while D&D did not invent Tiamat (who is the Mesopotamian primordial embodiment of the sea), they did invent Tiamat as the Five-headed Goddess Dragon.

Reading all these comments, it feels like, more than anything else, Magus's Remaster would benefit from having its rules clarified.

Literally ANYTHING for Champions.

I'm starting to feel like I should have rebuilt my PFS champion as a cleric because right now it feels like the champion's narrative space is getting steadily squeezed out of the game - you've got exemplar for the god-adjacent melee beatstick space, guardian for the stop the enemies from beating my friends space, and battle harbinger for the divine gish space; and champions don't even have their full premaster functionality back yet.

It kinda feels like Paizo hates champions and only even still has them in remaster to retain backwards compatibility with premaster.

The Oaths are back, and vastly improved, from my understanding.

Subject says it pretty much. How do Class Archetypes interact with the Free Archetype rule? Does that mean you can get a regular class feat alongside the dedication at level 2? Or could you pick up (if you so choose) a different archetype while still getting the dedication?

I ask partially because it feels like Class Archetypes and Non-class Archetypes are very different things, even if their Dedications have the dedication trait.

Mangaholic13 wrote:

Honestly, not sure why people are being so negative about this. It's a supporting martial caster with abilities dedicated to buffing/debuffing and letting it keep on doing that and even doing it better while fighting.

Because it's bad at doing exactly what you describe. Bless, Bane, Benediction and Malediction can be cast by any character in sufficient number once you reach mid levels. So what's left then? Martial proficiency with no class support. Wave casting at expert proficiency?

It needs a serious buff to be just playable. As is it's just a bad joke.

Okay then, here's a question for you: Would you have your "any character" be doing that in battle? Can they sustain their spells just by striking? Do they get extra spell slots for casting those spells? Can they increase the penalties with crits?

If they can, then you're probably right.
If not, then I think you need to reevaluate your idea of what constitutes a joke.

Based on a video I just watched (because I'm not subscribed and therefore do not get books early), I Palatine Detective class archetype might be up your alley a bit more, as it has abilities that benefit from Recalling Knowledge against foes, including Devise A Strategy.

Here's a link to a review video:

Battle Harbringer

Honestly, not sure why people are being so negative about this. It's a supporting martial caster with abilities dedicated to buffing/debuffing and letting it keep on doing that and even doing it better while fighting.

I guess people really do only read the headlines these days. ;P

I'm so happy it's finally here.

*Bows apologetically.*

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

This isn't a case of bad rolls, it's a case of unnecessary barriers to the class that don't serve a purpose other than to impose having a bad time.

What if the Barbarian's Rage feature meant that he had a Flat 6 DC to even make a Strike, because he's so mad because he can't see straight? What about a Rogue that has a Flat 6 DC to hit an enemy that's offguard because he accidentally startled his target, thereby causing him to get startled and ruin his approach, or a Ranger companion that has a Flat 6 DC to go after a hunted enemy because sometimes that dog just doesn't hunt? Or the Swashbuckler has to make a Flat 6 DC while having Panache because sometimes he can't stick his landing and makes himself look more like a clown than a person of flair?

That's kind of what the Unleash Psyche feels like to me, and it's just a terribly designed ability, especially when you consider classes like Animist and Sorcerer don't have such drawback gimmicks, while having the same (if not superior) benefits.

And even worse is that focus points and spells are finite resources. If you miss that stupefy check on a psychic, you lose the rare spell or the focus point until you refocus. So even more terrible than a flat check to miss on a strike which is unlimited.

All this for basically double damage to what every sorcerer now gets with four spell slots and focus spells and blood magic effect.

I agree with most of what you said, Deriven, but I disagree on that highlighted section:

Sorcerous is NOT superior to Unleash Psyche. It's not worse either, mind you. Both have drawbacks (although I fully agree, the flat failure chance needs to be removed).
Sorcerous Potency only works with spells that are cast from spell slots.
Meanwhile, Unleashed Psyche only works with damaging spells.

Not better, not worse.

Also, I feel like it REALLY doesn't make sense to compare the feature of a PreMastered class to a feature from a ReMastered class. Especially since (Wizards and Oracles (maybe?) aside) the Remastered version tend to be improved.

JiCi wrote:

I saw something circulating...

What if for Expanded Spellstrike, as an additional feat, the Magus could spend Focus Points to drop a save one step worse for the target?

This would be one of the single most broken abilities in the game. You are forcing successes at minimum, which is often better than what a full caster can achieve with the same spell, and you're getting spellstrike action compression on it. Should a magus really be the class that can most consistently deliver slows and so on?

Also consider the knock-on effect if full casters can take it via archetyping.

Not that I'm encouraging this idea... but I could easily see it being at minimum a 12th level feat, which would at least prevent access via Archetyping.

Something I'm confused about when people hype up Amped Imaginary Weapon:
The rules say that the two attacks MUST be against different targets. While it will be more damaging as scales (since Amped Imaginary Weapon heightens damage at 2*rank instead of rank), you still have to make them against different enemies. So, you can't really use it against a lone Boss...

Also, I feel like the best way to buff Unleash Psyche is to remove the spell failure chance from the stupefy it inflicts. And yeah, I know it's a flat 6 DC, but still, what if your dice rolls just suck?

If we rebalance the Psychic cantrips and make them 3 slot casters, it might be enough to fix them.

And this. I would gladly support this.

Name pretty much says it all. Archive of Nethys updated for Player Core 2 material. The update also mentioned they plan to have Tian Xia Character Guide and War of Immortals content added by the end of the year.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Cantrips+ isn't very compelling as a class identity, because Cantrips+ isn't going to do very much compared to most any other class feature (and is easily poached by other classes).

I don't mind the powers themselves, but you are right it is the fact that they can be poached so easily which strips the Psychic of any real mechanical identity.

Eh, it's not as bad as the Oracle Archetype, which lets you grab all of the Oracle abilities by level 4. With Psychic, most you can get are two psi cantrips, no Conscious, Subconscious, or Unleashed Psyche (which also means no Psyche actions).

I do think Unleash Psyche could stand to be buffed a little. Namely, by giving class feats that would provide bonuses to Non-damaging spells.

Like, as an example:
Empowered Recovery 8th level feat
Prerequisites: Your Psyche is Unleashed
You can channel the force of your unleashed power to heal as well as harm. When you cast a healing spell, you gain a bonus to the amount healed equal to double the spell's rank. This only applies to spells without a duration.

Another buff for Unleash Psyche could be that, as the Psychic levels, they gain a bonus to the flat DC checks to cast spells while stupefied. But only when it's caused by Unleash Psyche.

What do you guys think?

So out of the deities in Inner Sea Faiths, Naderi is the only one unaccounted for. Is she among those deities lost/missing or is she still around via God's & Magic?

*Looks up Naderi*

Personally, the Psychic is a large part in why I like PF2e over DnD 5e, and like Finoan said, the Remaster changes hasn't really hurt the Psychic much.

That said, there are a few things I'd like to have happen when Psychic finally gets Remastered:
1) Make it a 3-slot spell caster, EoC said.
2) Rework or replace the 10th level feat "Dream Guise". It feels WAY to situational compared to the other Subconscious Mind feats.
3) A reworked "Oscillating Wave" Conscious Mind. Namely, change it so that you aren't forced to alternate between subtracting and adding energy to your fire/cold spells. Mostly because, odds are, if you're fighting an enemy that's vulnerable to fire/cold, odds are they'll either resist or be immune to the opposite.
4) Add Piercing to the damage type options of Imaginary Weapon. ...Seriously, why does Imaginary Weapon only have Slashing and Bludgeoning damage currently, when the whole idea of the spell is literally "create a weapon out of force and attack with it"?

These next things are stuff I'd like to see for the Psychic... but I understand if they wouldn't be included in whatever book Remasters the Psychic:
5) Two more Subconscious Mind, which allow you to use Wisdom as your primary attribute.
6) Some more Conscious Minds. Like, one revolving around psychic healing/surgery, and one revolving around interacting with ghosts/spirits.
7) Maybe some class feats/additional abilities related to the Conscious minds, perhaps? This last one is the least thought out, admittedly.

Thoughts/Comments?

Several of the class archetypes in WoI are clearly intended to be the 2E equivalent of 1E hybrid classes. Bloodrager, for example. Is Seneschal in that group, or is it something completely new?

In reverse order: The Seneschal is a witch whose patron, for some reason, is no longer responding to their communing. They've still got access to their magic (including their familiar). The Seneschal then, as they level up, tries to assume the position and power of their patron, gaining the ability to make others a part of their coven and have them act as conduits for their magic.

Also, while I agree that Vindicator and Avenger are 2e's versions of Inquisitor and Slayer (Paizo even admitted that the name change for Vindicator is because they don't want to associate a potential heroic class with the Inquisition), I really don't think Bloodrager counts, personally.

1e's version of the Bloodrager was literally "You're a Barbarian Sorcerer", 2e's Bloodrager takes the "Blood" part more literally in that all your powers are related to blood. Using your blood to fuel your magic (hence the drain condition), gaining power from harvesting the blood of others, and making your foes bleed.

Also, the Warrior of Legend isn't in that group either. Their deal is built around replicating all heroes of myth who possessed great strength and durability but a glaring weakness that could spell their doom. This takes the form of a weakness to one of the basic damage types (blugeoning, piercing, or slashing) and gaining Doom condition at 2 if you're not Doomed yet. In exchange, when you are Doomed, you can use various powerful abilities, some of which lowers your Doom value. Examples that I can think of off the top of my head are Achilles, Siegfried, and Samson, but I'm sure there are more out there.

Hill Giant wrote:

Mangaholic13 wrote:

My argument is that, if a swordsman or spearman was deprived of their weapon, and a staff was in their grasp, they can use it just like their preferred weapon. But not with a club.

If staff is a blunt spear, why isn't a club a blunt sword? Isn't a bokken exactly that?

This is how I see it The difference between a mace, club, and cutting with a sword is the balance. The Mace it very top-heavy, the club is top heave but not as much as the mace, and the sword is balanced closer to the hilt. Adjusting to the balance takes a bit of practice but not to hard to figure out. A club, mace, and sword have different balances but so will swords with different lengths, widths, and blade profiles. The thing that all 3 have in common is their angle of attack is a swinging motion. It's easier to learn a group of swinging weapons together or a group of thrusting weapons together. Of course, some weapons do both, but when training with them you have to practice both types of attacks.

Admittedly, these comments are illustrating what might be the real issue:

Because, Hill Giant, to your question, "why isn't a club a blunt sword? Isn't a bokken exactly that?" The answer is: A bokken is NOT a club. A blunt sword is NOT a club at all. Those are closer to staves/sticks than to clubs.

Part of that is because, in my mind, for something to count as a club, similar to what Driftbourne said, it has to have most of its weight concentrated at a single end.

I mean, look at Stick-fighting. As far as they're concerned, clubs are not sticks/staves . Other martial arts such as Arnis see sticks/staves as blunt versions of knives and blades.
On the flip side, the Shillelagh (the weapon, not the Legacy Spell), is something I'd definitely consider a staff, but is viewed as a club.

So clearly, what a club is, is rather vague. In many ways, much like a staff.

I'm now thinking that instead of a "Staff" weapon group, a "Pole" weapon group might be more accurate. I don't know, I'm open to the opinions of others.

I really like this! Given how the sickle is a simple weapon with the agile, finesse, and trip traits, swapping agile for parry, a weaker trait, should be absolutely fine on a simple weapon. It looks like it could be fun on a Monk, and in particular could help fulfill the trope of "frail-looking elderly person with a walking stick is actually a martial arts master and starts beating some fools". Nice work!

Thank you.

On a differing note... can anyone explain to me why "probing canes" are martial weapons? Why do you need to be a trained martial to swing a stick? "Griffon canes" I can accept as simply not being designed for use as a weapon, but a cane is just a fancier walking stick, after all.

I admit, I'm a bit of a sucker for Cane Fu as a concept, and while Pathfinder has more cane-based weapons than most TTRPGs, I feel it could still do with more. So, I'm going to design one!

Self-Defense Cane
Traits: Finesse, Trip, and Parry
Price: 7 silver
Damage: 1d4 Blungeoning
Bulk: 1
Hands: 1
Type: Melee
Category: Simple
Group: Club

While appearing to be a simple cane, the Self-Defense Cane has received strengthen treatments similar to the Probing Cane, making it an effective, non-threatening accessory that can be used to defend oneself in combat. The hooked handle can even be used for tripping up opponents.

Mangaholic13 wrote:

I would however, like to note one thing: you indeed can use a staff as a club, but you can also use a staff like a sword or spear, whereas I'm not so certain a club could be used like a sword or spear.

I think it's fairer to say you can use a sword or spear like a staff. You can bash someone with a sword, or do a butt strike with a spear, but you can't slice or pierce with a staff, even if you're thrusting it like spear.

No, it really isn't.

There is a reason the staff is considered the Grandfather of All Weapons and is the one used to train for other weapons.

...Although, now that I think about it some more, I think another part of the problem is that what counts as a "club" can vary wildly as well.

It depends,

Is it a large staff
… or just a publicist and a girl-friday.

...I hate that I'm laughing.

I also feel like the complaints regarding the Apparition skills, those are putting way too much on the idea of "if you don't invest in Int, they're useless!", and completely overlooking that your Animist's proficiency in them scales up to Master.

Does that mean I think they're super useful lore skills? No.
Architecture isn't going to be useful in the wilderness.
Ocean won't help in a desert.
But, in the end, you don't have to spend anything to get them, and they CAN be useful in the right situations. Some more than others, obviously.

Mangaholic13

Right now, that it's... kinda "unsafe" to use P1E material and ruling ^^;

A sling staff may be a staff, but if you were gonna use it in melee, you'd likely use a loaded cup for better damage, similar to a flailpole, which is a flail on top of a pole.

Point taken.

However, this thread is about how Staffs Do or Do not deserve their own weapon group.
If you want to talk about how the Halfling Sling Staff should be a flail when used in melee (and SHOULD have the ability to function as a melee weapon), please make a thread about that.