| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In the time spent playing, how often do you see players inte tnionally taking 1d4 damage weapons and using them? And how often are they OK with this? I’m trying to get past the feels-bad of d4 things on lighter martials, or wondering if I should cheese up to d6 stuff anytime able. (Main goal at the moment is a swashgrappler.)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Never. 1d4 weapons are terrible. Maybe as some backup weapon in a desperate situation you draw your dagger, but the way striking runes work it's almost impossible to keep up your desperate backup weapon so d4 weapons are even more of a waste unless some use them just for style purposes like enjoying a starknife because you like how it looks.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My Halfling Thief used either a Light Mace or a Poi weapon form (via a Shifting rune) for Bludgeoning damage when we ran through Age of Ashes: 1d4 feels bad, but it really wasn't significantly worse than my 1d6 Shortsword (at endgame, something like 41 avg dmg. vs 37 avg dmg.).
Mind you, I stuck with the Shortsword form unless I needed either bludgeoning or nonlethal damage, but 1d4 weapons are fine as long as you aren't completely dependent on the weapon die for damage (if you are completely die dependent, you probably shouldn't even look at a weapon under a 1d8 weapon die)...
I avoid the 1d4 weapons, only using them if I have no choice, like Flying Dagger Swashbuckler where the weapons options are kinda limited there.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Everyone carries a dagger in my campaigns. It serves as a general-purpose utility knife, same as boys in the mid 20th-century carried folding pocket knives. On rare occasions they are thrown as emergency ranged weapons. Of course, they lacked runes, so throwing a dagger is helpful only at low levels.
A bard in my Strength of Thousands campaign carries a poi. The party of mostly spellcasters was lent a collection of nonlethal simple weapons to take down some nuisance creatures without killing them. That bard kept the poi and never upgraded. She was still clubbing a few enemies unconscious with the poi at 3rd level. Other party members have used their fists, another nonlethal d4 weapon, when they wanted to capture enemies alive. Only a few spells deal nonlethal damage without the Nonlethal Spell feat, so the spellcasters use weapons for nonlethal damage.
I expect that at higher levels, some of these spellcasters will carry spell-casting staves, primarily for the spells. And they will probably attach weapon runes to them in case they need a weapon. But though a staff is technically a d4 weapon, they would swing it with two hands for the "Two-Hand 1d8" damage.
Scanning the list of martial weapons for d4 weapons, I have sometimes given NPCs a main-gauche for two-weapon fighting with the option to parry. Others wield a whip for its reach. Clerics of Desna carry starknives, even if they have not taken the Deadly Simplicity feat. Samurai carry a wakizashi as the traditional complement to their katanas.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thaumaturges make good use out of D4 attacks, especially ranged attacks like star knives and ranged unarmed attacks. I've had a lot of fun with my kitsune foxfire thaum.
My question would be how and why someone would use the new wasp barbarian attack. D4 barbarian is a baffling concept lol
For characters using Agile/Finesse weapons for class reasons and have reasons for doing so - such as Sneak Attack, Finishers, or even Spellstrike or Personal Antithesis - then the difference between a d4 weapon and a d6 weapon isn't all that much.
I've played a d4 wielding DEX build Thaumaturge. It works well enough to be viable.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In the time spent playing, how often do you see players inte tnionally taking 1d4 damage weapons and using them? And how often are they OK with this? I’m trying to get past the feels-bad of d4 things on lighter martials, or wondering if I should cheese up to d6 stuff anytime able. (Main goal at the moment is a swashgrappler.)
I am currently playing a Thief Rogue that has Cleric and Champion dedication (Calistria and Liberator) with a Scorpion Whip, and I am consistently the top damage dealer in the party, though that is mostly because Im the player with the most system mastery by a long shot and the other players are a Shadow Bloodline Sorc (with Shadowcaster), a shortbow Fighter (with Cavalier, for the horse nomad concept) and a Fighter using the Draconic Ravager 3PP dragon archetype.
Still, for a Thief Rogue you cant do much better, d4 S with Reach, Trip, Disarm and the Flail spec is super solid.
|
I use a d4 War Razor on my Magus, just for flavor reasons. Still low level, so no Striking unless I cast Magic Weapon. With Backstabber and Arcane Casecade, it’s still decent damage. With Spell Strike, it doesn’t much matter what the weapon is.
My Rogue typically uses a shortsword, but I added a tekko-kagi to have a free hand weapon, and I’ve found myself using it fairly often, because I can do something like have a shortbow in the other hand. It’s not that big of a drop off from the d6s, given that I’m adding sneak attack. The tekko-kagi ended up getting the runes to use with doubling rings. The fun part is visualizing things like doing battle medicine with the hand that’s got the tekko-kagi.
I wouldn’t generally look to use a d4 weapon first, but it can be fine.
The thaumaturge is the only class where I'd consider using a d4 weapon. Since you're adding static damage to your attacks from implement empowerment and exploit vulnerability, the fact that a whip is finesse with reach and 1 handed makes it usable for a Thaumaturge.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Got a thief rogue with a thrower's bandolier who almost solely uses throwing knives and daggers at this point. Solid damage, decent range, and he can pack a truly absurd number of throwing knives into the bandolier. With my current party, he has become a prime striker, usually able to hit at least one enemy and often get sneak attack no matter the placement on the battlefield.
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
It pretty much depends on whether you're getting extra damage from somewhere else (sneak attack, finishers, implement's empowerment).
I mean, for rogue and swashbuckler there's not a lot of ways to go above a d6 anyway, and the difference between a d4 and d6 is not that much. A d4 weapon with really good traits can be worth it then.
For a monk, fighter or ranger on the other hand you depend more on the actual die, and there are bigger die options available. D4 monk weapons look like they never got much of a chance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Flurry Ranger in my Kingmaker Campaign uses a Fangwire and a Kukri. He attempts things like grab -> Twin Takedown when he knows the target has a high reflex save and relatively low Fortitude.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let's see, at 4th level, here's how my throwing knife rogue shapes up compared to the party's frontliner
-Redeemer Champion: Bastard Sword, +11/+6/+1, 2d8/2d12+4 (13/17 average)
-Thief Rogue: Throwing Knife, +11/+7/+3, 2d4+1d6+4 (12)
So that's 1 less point of damage on average than what he does with his shield up and 5 points less when he drops his shield. However, I am more accurate on the follow up attacks and can accurately throw them at a target within 30ft. Next level, I get my second sneak attack die, bumping my average damage up to 16 which puts it just below his two-handed damage.
1d4 damage weapons often have suites of really interesting traits that are pretty clearly intended to enable wholly different playstyles than just walking up to the enemy and hitting them over and over again. My rogue is currently the most lethal character on the team because he can frequently take advantage of our wrestler fighter grabbing someone pretty much no matter where they are in the fight, easily move into flanking, or just keep hitting an enemy even if they are already surrounded.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Let's see, at 4th level, here's how my throwing knife rogue shapes up compared to the party's frontliner
-Redeemer Champion: Bastard Sword, +11/+6/+1, 2d8/2d12+4 (13/17 average)
-Thief Rogue: Throwing Knife, +11/+7/+3, 2d4+1d6+4 (12)
How are you getting dex to damage when you throw your knife? The thiefs racket damage only applies to melee weapons and a knife, when thrown, is NOT a melee weapon.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How are you getting dex to damage when you throw your knife? The thiefs racket damage only applies to melee weapons and a knife, when thrown, is NOT a melee weapon.Let's see, at 4th level, here's how my throwing knife rogue shapes up compared to the party's frontliner
-Redeemer Champion: Bastard Sword, +11/+6/+1, 2d8/2d12+4 (13/17 average)
-Thief Rogue: Throwing Knife, +11/+7/+3, 2d4+1d6+4 (12)
Ah that wonderful moment when I realize I've fallen bass ackwards into a point of contention.
I disagree based on the language used to describe how damage is added to thrown weapons but I can see where your read is coming from.
Regardless, this is off-topic and I don't want to de-rail the thread. The point I was trying to make could use an entirely different build and still hold up. There are three axis by which to balance weapons, damage die size, traits, and weapon category. Low damage die weapons are usually meant to fit a very specific technical niche.
I hate d4s with a burning passion and avoid them whenever possible
not only is the damage bad if you are dependent on the weapon for the damage
those dang pyramids just drop and slide over the table and I dont wanna buy who knows how many special dice to let my actual dice gather dust
if there is a d4 weapon that is style wise liked on my table, we usually try to homebrew a different version of it
I especially hate that the starknife, which is a cool looking and flavorful weapon of one of my favourite deities, is a puny d4
if you dont got a lot of them, d4 just feel bad all around and that you usually dont get a (lot of) damage bonus from strength does not make it any better at the lower levels where the difference in die size is otherwise not as big a deal
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's worth noting that if d4 weapons were all upgraded most of the complaints I've seen would just shift to d6 weapons. If you're prioritizing damage over technical fighting, then just don't use them. Problem solved.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can always roll d8s and halve them.
They make d8's that have 1-4 on them twice for people that don't like the d4 shape.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have a flurry Ranger in PFS that uses a Clan Dagger with Doubling Rings. The Dagger has the Runes, and his main weapon is either a Short Sword or a Light Hammer. It's been a lot of fun.
I like the Clan Dagger for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it has Parry, and my guy has Twin Parry building towards Twin Riposte. Secondly, it has Bludgeoning. Thirdly, it's just thematic as anything.
You can always roll d8s and halve them.They make d8's that have 1-4 on them twice for people that don't like the d4 shape.
I bought a bunch of 12 sided d4s at a convention almost 10 years ago for like $6. Never looked back.
solves only half my problem but I guess its good to know :P
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Much more pleasant to roll.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Much more pleasant to roll.
Heck, they even make a 20 sided D4. And then, they various differently shaped d4's like orbiform, skew, truncated tetrahedron, slant, crystal...
Of course, there is nothing like the classic improvised caltrop d4. ;)
I used it on a whip as an offhand on my two-weapon swashbuckler for range purposes. Its main damage was irrelevant enough since I was only really using it for Twin Parry and Dual Finisher with reach.
I have played around with the idea of a flurry ranger that golf bags through the use of doubling rings and a magic gauntlet.
The gauntlet's damage is secondary to its role as an upgrade stick that is always on hand.
You can then golf bag with your main hand for whatever works. Trip, disarm, bludgeoning, slashing, silver, cold iron. Whatever.
And you can grab anything that is laying around.
|
|
Anything 1-handed, yes. That essentially what I do with my Rogue, only with the tekko-kagi, since gauntlets aren’t finesse. I carry a short sword, light mace for bludgeoning, whip for nonlethal or reach. I’m sure there are better options. I haven’t done a full look through since converting him to remaster and getting Martial proficiency.
In the time spent playing, how often do you see players inte tnionally taking 1d4 damage weapons and using them? And how often are they OK with this? I’m trying to get past the feels-bad of d4 things on lighter martials, or wondering if I should cheese up to d6 stuff anytime able. (Main goal at the moment is a swashgrappler.)
Sometimes you just need to slap people with a frying pan.
My fleshwarp Investigator uses a Triggerbrand nowadays, because it's cool and the versatility helps sometimes. Being a d4 weapon in its primary (ranged) use doesn't matter much, seeing as she only really attacks once a round at most and has a rune (or special ammo) and precision damage on that, plus crits boost the die size a fair bit. ¯\_('v')_/¯
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you're using a d4 weapon, it should be because it's got traits that you are frequently making use of - or if it is a backup weapon for a just-in-case scenario that happens to have come up.
Which is to say that I am not in the position of having never seen someone make the choice to use a d4 weapon. Many players pack a dagger "just in case" but something like a whip can easily be a focal-point of a build.
And I think it's pretty amusing that most of what's being said against treating d4 weapons as viable is basically "if it's not the best, it's useless" false tiering.
Understatted on damage does tend to mean overstatted on traits, yeah. The weird d4's are the ones that try to make up the damage difference with traits like fatal. The whip has obvious applications but I'm not sure what character would be excited to use a karambit.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I just finished roughing out a kitsune rogue concept going into the duelist archetype (for the Spore War AP). Taking Foxfire as the 1st level ancestry feat doesn't feel "wasted" even at 1d4 damage because 1) as a ranged unarmed attack it can benefit from Sneak Attack, 2) it does either electricity or fire damage (probably electricity), 3) it can benefit from handwraps of mighty blows, and 4) it can be used without occupying a "free hand" to qualify for various duelist feats.
Is a d4 weapon going to be the best choice in all situations? No. However, the difference between a d4 weapon with traits that synergize with the character and a d6 weapon that doesn't synergize with the character? The traits that synergize will often result in better outcomes.
The d4 ranged attacks that the Kitsune and Leshy (and maybe a few others) get are a reasonable backup option for a monk with that ancestry since you can flurry with them at range and your handwraps apply to their damage.
It is extremely rare to see. As nobody wants to do less damage. I can argue reasonably for them with a class that has a large amount of bonus damage. But I normally go for a d6 or better option anyway.
I have seen Fangwire (Agile, Backstabber, Deadly d8, Finesse, Grapple, Kobold) and
Filcher's Fork (Agile, Backstabber, Deadly d6, Finesse, Halfling, Thrown 20 ft) and
Long Air Repeater
being used.
But these were for very special builds.
1-handed d4 ranged weapons typically don't care too much about the low damage due to being... well, ranged and 1-handed.
After all, if it's between using up some ammo on a flintlock pistol or air repeater on an enemy in the air or just, like, sitting there and doing nothing, I'd rather at least have the option.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like some of this is psychological. People talk about d4 weapons cratering your damage but the difference between a d4 and a d6 is literally just 1 on the average, four with max dice, it's not exactly a titanic power gap, especially if you're playing a class with high static damage modifiers like a rogue or barbarian or swashbuckler.
I do think there's a problem though of most of the time the trade off not being worth it. Damage traits are almost never as good as a die size, so any weapon that makes that trade is probably losing on average, and utility traits tend to have diminishing returns and less overall value, so you can often find a d6 or d8 weapon with the one trait you want than need to worry about downgrading to a d4 to pick up a couple more. It doesn't help that a lot of d4 weapons are finesse, so athletics traits lose some value inherently too.
So IMO it's less that d4 is unsalvageably little damage and more that there are very few weapons that make the trade worth making.
The weird d4's are the ones that try to make up the damage difference with traits like fatal. The whip has obvious applications but I'm not sure what character would be excited to use a karambit.
In fairness, part of the karambit's problem is that it's just underbudget and bad in general.
Trading a die size for fatal is basically a sidegrade (slightly worse average damage, but better crits) ... but the karambit is an advanced weapon. It shouldn't be a maybe-worse sidegrade to a shortsword or other similar martial weapon in the first place.
I mean hell a dagger is a simple weapon with thrown instead of fatal, so the karambit is a full two tiers higher but only gains like half a trait? That doesn't add up.
Even if it were a martial weapon it could have fit another small trait in its power budget. As an advanced weapon its clearly just way understatted.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
the difference between a d4 and a d6 is literally just 1 on the average, four with max dice, it's not exactly a titanic power gap, especially if you're playing a class with high static damage modifiers like a rogue or barbarian or swashbuckler.
So at level 1 the difference is 3.5 versus 2.5 so a 28% loss, or if you using sneak attack 7 versus 6 or 14%. In melee that is 11 versus 10 or 9%.
That is a loss and that is significant.It is only situationally worth it.
In the time spent playing, how often do you see players inte tnionally taking 1d4 damage weapons and using them? And how often are they OK with this? I’m trying to get past the feels-bad of d4 things on lighter martials, or wondering if I should cheese up to d6 stuff anytime able. (Main goal at the moment is a swashgrappler.)
On this point, the Nightstick is an absolutely terrible weapon, there is no reason to use this over a Fist or a Shield.
|
|
I feel like some of this is psychological. People talk about d4 weapons cratering your damage but the difference between a d4 and a d6 is literally just 1 on the average, four with max dice, it's not exactly a titanic power gap, especially if you're playing a class with high static damage modifiers like a rogue or barbarian or swashbuckler.
I do think there's a problem though of most of the time the trade off not being worth it. Damage traits are almost never as good as a die size, so any weapon that makes that trade is probably losing on average, and utility traits tend to have diminishing returns and less overall value, so you can often find a d6 or d8 weapon with the one trait you want than need to worry about downgrading to a d4 to pick up a couple more. It doesn't help that a lot of d4 weapons are finesse, so athletics traits lose some value inherently too.
So IMO it's less that d4 is unsalvageably little damage and more that there are very few weapons that make the trade worth making.
The weird d4's are the ones that try to make up the damage difference with traits like fatal. The whip has obvious applications but I'm not sure what character would be excited to use a karambit.In fairness, part of the karambit's problem is that it's just underbudget and bad in general.
Trading a die size for fatal is basically a sidegrade (slightly worse average damage, but better crits) ... but the karambit is an advanced weapon. It shouldn't be a maybe-worse sidegrade to a shortsword or other similar martial weapon in the first place.
I mean hell a dagger is a simple weapon with thrown instead of fatal, so the karambit is a full two tiers higher but only gains like half a trait? That doesn't add up.
Even if it were a martial weapon it could have fit another small trait in its power budget. As an advanced weapon its clearly just way understatted.
Karambit is consistent with advanced weapons. Considering picks, it's essentially a finesse light pick minus the crit spec so it doesn't fit as a martial weapon.
In the time spent playing, how often do you see players inte tnionally taking 1d4 damage weapons and using them? And how often are they OK with this? I’m trying to get past the feels-bad of d4 things on lighter martials, or wondering if I should cheese up to d6 stuff anytime able. (Main goal at the moment is a swashgrappler.)On this point, the Nightstick is an absolutely terrible weapon, there is no reason to use this over a Fist or a Shield.
It's a simple 1 handed Parry weapon. There are some feats, like Twin Parry, that do more when using Parry weapons and neither fist or shield qualify as weapons.
It's niche really vanished though once Rogue got martial weapon proficiency, as before the nightstick was the only parry weapon they could get [and could sneak attack with]. Now they can get a Main-gauche for Disarm and Versatile S instead of the Non-lethal of the nightstick.
In the time spent playing, how often do you see players inte tnionally taking 1d4 damage weapons and using them? And how often are they OK with this? I’m trying to get past the feels-bad of d4 things on lighter martials, or wondering if I should cheese up to d6 stuff anytime able. (Main goal at the moment is a swashgrappler.)On this point, the Nightstick is an absolutely terrible weapon, there is no reason to use this over a Fist or a Shield.It's a simple 1 handed Parry weapon. There are some feats, like Twin Parry, that do more when using Parry weapons and neither fist or shield qualify as weapons.
It's niche really vanished though once Rogue got martial weapon proficiency, as before the nightstick was the only parry weapon they could get [and could sneak attack with]. Now they can get a Main-gauche for Disarm and Versatile S instead of the Non-lethal of the nightstick.
It's also a Thief Rogue's best friend if you're trying to take people alive, since for some reason the Sap is not Finnesse (though I guess you could also use your FIST).
Which now that I think about it, why isn't the sap Finnesse? d6, nonlethal, agile and Martial is missing a trait, isn't it? I mean shortswords are d6, finnesse, agile, versatile S.
It's also a Thief Rogue's best friend if you're trying to take people alive, since for some reason the Sap is not Finnesse (though I guess you could also use your FIST).
Which now that I think about it, why isn't the sap Finnesse? d6, nonlethal, agile and Martial is missing a trait, isn't it? I mean shortswords are d6, finnesse, agile, versatile S.
Juggling Club, Poi, Monkey's Fist, Scourge and Whip have finesse and nonlethal and are simple/martial that thieves can use: you have a thrown option, a reach/trip/disarm one, a d6 damage option, a slashing damage one...
A thief isn't exactly wanting for nonlethal weapons.