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Dude, minotaurs be totally busted compared to other ancestries. Most overt example of power creep I've seen in PF2e to date.
- Large size
- Darkvision
- Permanent reach with a feat
- Can boost all physical ability scores at level 1
- Powerful natural attack
- Can walk through walls as early as level 9 (plus other amazing feats)
Contrast that to dwarves who got darkvision, a knife, and reduced speed to balance those out.
Centaurs are not far behind. Personally, I'd take away the darkvision from both ancestries, possibly allowing its return with one or more feats. That would go a long ways towards balancing them out I think.
I guess Paizo sees Large size as being a drawback?
Didn't minotaurs have poor eyesight anyways, often relying on sense of smell? And why do centaurs need to see in the dark? Is it because they're stargazers?
Discuss.
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I don't see why a human bull hybrid would have dark vision, and yeah I would assume they'd have poor eyesight. I think large size was maybe assumed to be balanced out because they have trouble moving through the narrow corridors of a dungeon? The reach alone is spectacular and far and away better than most anything else
Does the medium size heritage prevent you from getting any of that stuff?
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I say Dwarves need an Errata for 25ft base movement if Minotaurs and Centaurs can exist in this format! Large size may be a drawback but for what, AOEs partially (They can be hit more easily) and 5ft corridors? That's funny but not really a Drawback.
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While I do think Minotaur is overtuned, Large size is a pretty significant drawback.
1. The hassle of squeezing through 5-foot hallways and doors and fitting the group in small rooms is seriously not to be underestimated.
2. A large creature's unconscious body starts at 12 bulk. Good luck getting rescued by your party.
3. Many, many flanking opportunities will be foiled by a wall or obstacle
4. Cover is harder to obtain when you're larger.
5. Your mount options are very limited early game.
6. Enemies target you first because you're big and threatening, and you'll often go down first
7. You take up more spaces and are more likely to get caught in AoEs
Wait how long does Stretching Reach last for?
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A people with an affinity for underground mazes having darkvision is not surprising. Relying on smell doesn't really work with the way PF2 handles that sort of thing. I might have made that a heritage or feat, though, since that is a lot of stuff.
Darkvision feels like overkill on centaurs. Street Lights have caused a lot of us to underestimate the amount of light there is most nights.
Maybe the playtest was primarily in claustrophobic abomination vaults- style dungeons?
I'm just thinking about how perfect for inexorable iron the minotaur appears to be, whether giving bigger dice weapons reach or getting even more reach with a reach weapon if this is how that works. 15 reach to help with the 8 hp seems significant to me
Wait how long does Stretching Reach last for?
Based on screenshots I've seen, it lasts until you change your grip on the weapon. So you need to spend an extra action to get reach back if you drop the weapon or take a hand off the grip to use one hand, but it looks like you could have it active during exploration mode.
I'm just thinking about how perfect for inexorable iron the minotaur appears to be, whether giving bigger dice weapons reach or getting even more reach with a reach weapon if this is how that works. 15 reach to help with the 8 hp seems significant to me
reach stacking is explicitly ruled out. You only get to add reach to a two-handed weapon without it.
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I think this is partly Paizo painting themselves in a corner. Their initial roster of ancestries came out with so little in the base package (everything else relegated to feats) that now it seems unbalanced for these ancestries to come out with everything they need to even feel like they represent what they should.
The other part is Large size probably being more drawback than benefit (and I am very grateful that there are varieties for both the minotaur and the centaur that nope out of all that headache), and a few unnecessary traits (darkvision on the centaur and perhaps the minotaur, too).
I don't see why a human bull hybrid would have dark vision, and yeah I would assume they'd have poor eyesight. I think large size was maybe assumed to be balanced out because they have trouble moving through the narrow corridors of a dungeon? The reach alone is spectacular and far and away better than most anything else
I totally see it
our minotaurs here are maze lurkers, as indicated by some featsthose are not exactly well lit, they adapted
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Their initial roster of ancestries came out with so little in the base package (everything else relegated to feats) that now it seems unbalanced for these ancestries to come out with everything they need to even feel like they represent what they should.
We're not talking about a radical time gap though. Player Core came out like six months ago. Howl of the Wild was announced while PC1 was still in development.
So we're talking about the difference between what are essentially the two most recently printed main rule books, not the whole breadth of the system.
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Welp I'm a bit sad. Centaurs get darkvision but skeletons don't, for some reason?
Overall though, super excited for looking at these ancestries.
I played a Halloween one-shot where the party was a group of spooky scary skeletons. I described their vision as hazy and dull except for when looking at a living creature, which they could discern in excruciating, tantalizing, and vivid detail. In light of ancestry power creep I'll probably just go forward with giving all undead Living-sight.
Minotaurs can walk through walls? Do they get a burrow speed that works through stone walls, or passwall as an innate spell, or what? That sounds pretty cool.
With a feat, yes, yes they can. And said feat requires a specific heritage too.
But once you have it, you can literally walk through a wall "as if it weren't there" once per hour. If you can't complete your movement before exiting, you're harmlessly ejected.
The phrasing makes it extremely permissive; for example, there is nothing that says you can't carry allies through. You treat it as though it weren't there.
Did I also mention that minotaurs can get the best carrying capacity bonuses of any ancestry? They can carry several allies without much effort.
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Their initial roster of ancestries came out with so little in the base package (everything else relegated to feats) that now it seems unbalanced for these ancestries to come out with everything they need to even feel like they represent what they should.We're not talking about a radical time gap though. Player Core came out like six months ago. Howl of the Wild was announced while PC1 was still in development.
So we're talking about the difference between what are essentially the two most recently printed main rule books, not the whole breadth of the system.
There's an asterisk on player core, though, because it was mostly reprinting existing material on a tight timeline that was already disrupting Paizo's production schedule. Lots of things were buffed to be more in line with Paizo's current, less conservative balance parameters... And lots more stuff wasn't. So I think comparing player core to other recent books is a bit apples to oranges.
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Minotaurs be Krynnge.
Sorry, not sorry. :-)
It's not a common option so if I ever take issue it can be easily vetoed by way of classification. Not an ideal solution but *shrug*. My two cents, I've been in enough APs to know I wouldn't want to squeeze that often
I feel like more than most ancestries Minotaurs are just going to be a "hard no" in a lot of games, and this is signposted the book they're from being called "Howl of the Wild". So a GM is entirely within their right to just say "no" to Minotaurs (and also Centaurs) in any campaign that's going to significantly intersect with "being in an urban setting that is not sized for you."
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Minotaurs can walk through walls? Do they get a burrow speed that works through stone walls, or passwall as an innate spell, or what? That sounds pretty cool.With a feat, yes, yes they can. And said feat requires a specific heritage too.
But once you have it, you can literally walk through a wall "as if it weren't there" once per hour. If you can't complete your movement before exiting, you're harmlessly ejected.
The phrasing makes it extremely permissive; for example, there is nothing that says you can't carry allies through. You treat it as though it weren't there.
Did I also mention that minotaurs can get the best carrying capacity bonuses of any ancestry? They can carry several allies without much effort.
I guess the Minotaur treats the wall as not being there. For their allies, the wall is still very much there.
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I don't see why a human bull hybrid would have dark vision, and yeah I would assume they'd have poor eyesight. I think large size was maybe assumed to be balanced out because they have trouble moving through the narrow corridors of a dungeon? The reach alone is spectacular and far and away better than most anything elseI totally see it
our minotaurs here are maze lurkers, as indicated by some feats
those are not exactly well lit, they adapted
This might be my memory, but I don't recall it being implied the minotaur knew how to get through the maze. If anything I assumed it trapped it
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What heritage? Stalker, or Slabsoul (or a surprise third option)?
Really this sounds pretty fun.
Slabsoul.
I guess the Minotaur treats the wall as not being there. For their allies, the wall is still very much there.
A minotaur doesn't arrive on the other side naked and unarmed. Ergo, they can obviously carry things through. It's not a great leap from there to interpreting that they can therefore carry allies through as well. Your mileage may vary.
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A minotaur doesn't arrive on the other side naked and unarmed. Ergo, they can obviously carry things through. It's not a great leap from there to interpreting that they can therefore carry allies through as well.Except for all the pains the rules take to draw differentiations between creatures and objects.
Even if that's the case, there's nothing stopping players from putting their characters somewhere else entirely, such as a spacious pouch.
The only thing remotely balanced about it is that (1) a spellcaster can do it too at the level you get it, and (2) since it's once per hour, you may well end up in a bad bind without much recourse for a quick escape.
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"If this would bring another creature with you (even through extradimensional space) the effect is lost" has to be one of the most repeated lines of text in ability descriptions, so the devs' intent on how personal transportation effects are supposed to work is pretty clear.
I'm just gonna assume they didn't think to include it here.
"If this would bring another creature with you (even through extradimensional space) the effect is lost" has to be one of the most repeated lines of text in ability descriptions, so the devs' intent on how personal transportation effects are supposed to work is pretty clear.
I'm just gonna assume they didn't think to include it here.
The minotaur's Stone Passage feat also states "you make the wall insubstantial."
That sounds like it's not a barrier for much of anything. The way it reads, the only reason only the minotaur can go through, and not others, is because the effect begins and ends with the minotaur's stride--so others typically can'treact quickly enough to take advantage.
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I doubt extremely that RAI is to give free passage to how ever many party members the minotaur could carry. That snuggly fits into "too good to be true" and id immediately squash that as DM
I doubt extremely that RAI is to give free passage to how ever many party members the minotaur could carry. That snuggly fits into "too good to be true" and id immediately squash that as DM
That's well within your rights as GM, but with everything else the minotaur gets, the whole ancestry is already well past the too good to be true line of reasoning.
- Can boost all physical ability scores at level 1
Discuss.
Can't every ancestry do this?
Pick any 2 stats as your bonus, and go.
Not challenging the rest of your post though. I've not read through things yet. But ancestry based stat bonuses are not mandatory so any character of any ancestry can do any stat choices it wants.
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Mechanically being large size is a disadvantage. You take up more squares on the map so are easier to flank and get in your ally's way more often (it's hard enough for a caster to line up AoEs as is... with you there they might as well just stick to being a buffbot with cantrips), and it doesn't give free reach.
Stone Passage is level 9. By that time other heritages / classes are getting their own special movements as well. It actually compares disfavorably against Tengu flight. Tengu flight is only once per day, but lasts for 10 minutes. Stone Passage lasts for only a single stride action, but is useable once per hour.
Stretching Reach is a level 5 feat, and only gives reach to a non-reach 2-hander. So not a big deal.
The built in 1d8 horn gore attack is notable.
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Can't every ancestry do this?
Pick any 2 stats as your bonus, and go.
Minotaurs get STR boost, CON boost, free boost, CHA flaw, hence they can start with STR CON and DEX boosted at the same time.
That's not something you can reproduce with "boost any 2", you would need a GM who houserules that "3 free, 1 flaw" is allowed.
But once you have it, you can literally walk through a wall "as if it weren't there" once per hour. If you can't complete your movement before exiting, you're harmlessly ejected.
Backwards.
That's very important. You go back to the last spot that was empty.
If that spot was a bubble in the wall somewhere, you better hope there's enough air to last an hour. Not a likely but certainly a possible outcome.
So it'd be a very unwise ability to use 'full stride' in 'natural caves' or places you don't know the layout of yet. Rather you're best never going more than half your stride and if still in solid rock, turning around and back to your start.
If at 15 feet in you hit an air pocket - you risk being stuck in it for an hour.
If that was a you-sized pocket, in the real world, you'd suffocate within that hour. If you'd somehow brought other breathers with you - it's a sure thing you'd all be dead.
The ability thus has limited safe uses:
Going through a wall to a known passage on the other side, getting pas a castle wall, etc.
Or... be an Air Kineticist.
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Minotaurs get STR boost, CON boost, free boost, CHA flaw, hence they can start with STR CON and DEX boosted at the same time.Can't every ancestry do this?
Pick any 2 stats as your bonus, and go.
To put numbers to that, a level 1 minotaur final character could end up with +4 +3 +2 in their STR, CON, DEX in some order. Other ancestries could only end up with (I think) +4 +2 +2 or +4 +3 +1.
Which, to me at least, doesn't seem like all that big of a deal.
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But once you have it, you can literally walk through a wall "as if it weren't there" once per hour. If you can't complete your movement before exiting, you're harmlessly ejected.Backwards.
That's very important. You go back to the last spot that was empty.
If that spot was a bubble in the wall somewhere, you better hope there's enough air to last an hour. Not a likely but certainly a possible outcome.
So it'd be a very unwise ability to use 'full stride' in 'natural caves' or places you don't know the layout of yet. Rather you're best never going more than half your stride and if still in solid rock, turning around and back to your start.
If at 15 feet in you hit an air pocket - you risk being stuck in it for an hour.
If that was a you-sized pocket, in the real world, you'd suffocate within that hour. If you'd somehow brought other breathers with you - it's a sure thing you'd all be dead.
The ability thus has limited safe uses:
Going through a wall to a known passage on the other side, getting pas a castle wall, etc.
Or... be an Air Kineticist.
While technically correct... Let's not resort to getting into a rules pedantry arms race with the GM as a method of game balance. That doesn't sound like something that is going to end well. For anyone.
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To put numbers to that, a level 1 minotaur final character could end up with +4 +3 +2 in their STR, CON, DEX in some order. Other ancestries could only end up with (I think) +4 +2 +2 or +4 +3 +1.
Which, to me at least, doesn't seem like all that big of a deal.
By itself it isn't that big of a deal. However...
Can't every ancestry do this?- Can boost all physical ability scores at level 1
Discuss.
Not all in the Ancestry step of attribute generation. Insofar as I'm aware, no other ancestry grants boosts to two physical stats, with a free boost to a third. Typically, it's one mental, one physical, one free, and one flaw; or two free boosts.
This is something altogether new. By itself, I'd probably be like "yeah, that's a minotaur for you," but alongside darkvision, a high HP value, a powerful natural attack, and some pretty amazing feat options? It's all too much.
Bulmahn privilege, I say we take the win in this circumstance.
LOL. Nice. :)
I say they need to drop darkvision for low-light vision (or perhaps not even grant that) and have them turned into additional feat options.
But once you have it, you can literally walk through a wall "as if it weren't there" once per hour. If you can't complete your movement before exiting, you're harmlessly ejected.Backwards.
That's very important. You go back to the last spot that was empty.
Sorry, I thought that was self-evident. I was not intending to imply that it could eject you into a new area.
Mechanically being large size is a disadvantage. You take up more squares on the map so are easier to flank and get in your ally's way more often (it's hard enough for a caster to line up AoEs as is... with you there they might as well just stick to being a buffbot with cantrips), and it doesn't give free reach.
It is, but I don't think it's going to be nearly so bad as people think. The book even instructs the GM to "go easy" in a game in which they allow large ancestries.
Stretching Reach is a level 5 feat, and only gives reach to a non-reach 2-hander. So not a big deal.
Remember, they're large. Large creatures threaten more squares without reach, due to their size. Medium creatures threaten 9 normally or 25 with reach, whereas Large creatures threatens 16 normally or 32 with reach.
It's not reach for minotaurs. It's reach+.
The few built in restrictions (such as must be a two-handed non-reach weapon) read like they were written by a min/maxer trying to cheese the system--in other words, not really much of a drawback at all, but rather a false flag to make it appear more balanced on the surface than it really is.
The built in 1d8 horn gore attack is notable.
By itself that might be fine, but as part of the whole package, it's even more notable.
None of the rules are ever written to cover the common case of "can Ravingdork willfully misread this," no reason for this minotaur to break the streak.
Minotaur doesn't need me. It's readily apparent that it's power creep. This was brought to my attention before I brought it to yours.
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It is a minotaur. They should be a little tougher than joe blow the human. I understand the desire for balance. It doesn't sound too imbalanced in practical play. A min-maxer can do a bit with it.
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I think this is partly Paizo painting themselves in a corner. Their initial roster of ancestries came out with so little in the base package (everything else relegated to feats) that now it seems unbalanced for these ancestries to come out with everything they need to even feel like they represent what they should.
The other part is Large size probably being more drawback than benefit (and I am very grateful that there are varieties for both the minotaur and the centaur that nope out of all that headache), and a few unnecessary traits (darkvision on the centaur and perhaps the minotaur, too).
Way, way back during the playtest, this lack of core features was one of my gripes with the new ancestries. Back then, I thought that Ancestries should have more base stuff and feats would only either improve them or would be stuff that are culturally relevant.
I've yet to see the Minotaur, but from what I could see here, it seems like they're very close to what I was thinking of in the playtest times.
It is a minotaur. They should be a little tougher than joe blow the human. I understand the desire for balance. It doesn't sound too imbalanced in practical play. A min-maxer can do a bit with it.
From what I've seem from this new ancestry, seems like it is just showcasing how undertuned they are. At least IMO.
And I agree with everyone else, non-adjustable Large Size is certainly a meaningful drawback. It is, in fact, one of the main reasons why mounts aren't all that good for regular campaigns if your PC is Medium.
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Is the minotaur going to destroy your game balance or fun?
If you have even a modicum of talent as a GM, I seriously doubt it. Pathfinder 2e's robust structure remains intact. Your table, in all likelihood, would probably enjoy it a great deal. I know mine will.
But I don't believe anyone here can deny that it is a step up from other ancestries without being completely disingenuous.
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As someone who has their first Human that's about to get played soon, I just want to chime in a reminder that Humans are hilariously overpowered compared to the other ancestries I've seen.
Tbh, it's kinda over the line of being funny, and into "wow, this is really kinda b$~+%@~!" territory.
Human supremacy is quite real, and I'm just glad that players tend to pick their PC ancestry far more for character reasons than for min-maxing.
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Remember, they're large. Large creatures threaten more squares without reach, due to their size. Medium creatures threaten 9 normally or 25 with reach, whereas Large creatures threatens 16 normally or 32 with reach.
It's not reach for minotaurs. It's reach+.
Somewhat. Large PCs don't get any more reach than medium PCs. They only 'reach' to the squares touching them. That's 12 squares (I think your 16 is counting the squares they're in which would require special circumstances for an enemy to be in their square with them), versus the 8 of a medium creature.
They can also be attacked, flanked, etc from all of those locations.
But you've still got to walk right up to an enemy - close enough that they can hit back.
This is very much a disadvantage. You don't gain extra actions so you're still targeting 1-3 people around you. But a potential 12 could surround you and all attack. NOT a realistic scenario.
However in a group fight, PCs can usually coordinate to keep one from being surrounded (unless it's my GM who always goes for casters regardless of damage output or NPC sentience - even when they're asleep or hidden in a tent having not acted or shown any signs of being present while the entire rest of the group is outside in battle...)
...
But yeah. When it's medium sized people you can form lines and otherwise keep enemies from getting all around a single target. But a large creature opens up so many more angles of attack - and just getting into melee with the rest of your team might force many enemies to be around you and possibly flanking you.
And I agree with everyone else, non-adjustable Large Size is certainly a meaningful drawback. It is, in fact, one of the main reasons why mounts aren't all that good for regular campaigns if your PC is Medium.
I'm fairly certain that if I ever try to recreate my former WoW main in PF2E terminology, I'll use the 'Littlehorn' heritage on a Champion. Being large is just way too dangerous.
Remember, they're large. Large creatures threaten more squares without reach, due to their size. Medium creatures threaten 9 normally or 25 with reach, whereas Large creatures threatens 16 normally or 32 with reach.
It's not reach for minotaurs. It's reach+.
Somewhat. Large PCs don't get any more reach than medium PCs. They only 'reach' to the squares touching them. That's 12 squares (I think your 16 is counting the squares they're in which would require special circumstances for an enemy to be in their square with them), versus the 8 of a medium creature.
They can also be attacked, flanked, etc from all of those locations.
But you've still got to walk right up to an enemy - close enough that they can hit back.
This is very much a disadvantage. You don't gain extra actions so you're still targeting 1-3 people around you. But a potential 12 could surround you and all attack. NOT a realistic scenario.
However in a group fight, PCs can usually coordinate to keep one from being surrounded (unless it's my GM who always goes for casters regardless of damage output or NPC sentience - even when they're asleep or hidden in a tent having not acted or shown any signs of being present while the entire rest of the group is outside in battle...)
...
But yeah. When it's medium sized people you can form lines and otherwise keep enemies from getting all around a single target. But a large creature opens up so many more angles of attack - and just getting into melee with the rest of your team might force many enemies to be around you and possibly flanking you.
sounds like there was a traumatic moment there in the tent.
But theres an upside to the large size. Lets say its a champ or now guardian, they take up more room blocking off more space to reach your back row.
I honestly have no idea why Paizo decided to make minotaurs a PC race. I mean, they are mostly evil. They are the minions of Baphomet. If minotaurs can be a PC race, I guess ogres and trolls can too, but surprisingly Paizo has no intention to make them PC races at all though. Also, I'm still not sure whether making a large race into a PC race is desirable or not.
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I mean, they are mostly evil. They are the minions of Baphomet. If minotaurs can be a PC race, I guess ogres and trolls can too,
Yes, and...?
Minotaurs are humanoids, and like all humanoids they have the same capacity for good and evil that we do. They are not born evil any more than goblins or orcs, and even if they were, they're certainly a common enough ask that Paizo could simply establish a culture of non-evil minotaurs previously unrevealed and call it a day. We have 100% of the lore on no ancestry, as far as I'm concerned, and that goes double for parts of the world we haven't thoroughly explored yet.
So yeah, Paizo definitely could release ogres for play tomorrow. This is absolutely true and there's nothing stopping them except the kind of stories they prefer to tell and the time it takes to design, write, and publish them. For now, at least, the murderous, inbred monster-hillbillies is a big identifier for Paizo ogres and staff have told us they like them that way. There definitely are non-evil ogres in the world just by sheer statistics (and the fact that evil is no longer an objective mechanical term) but Paizo has decided they don't want to crack that open for players yet (if ever). I'm sure it would be terribly easy now that we have minotaurs to re-skin some existing options if you really badly wanted to play an ogre.
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I honestly have no idea why Paizo decided to make minotaurs a PC race. I mean, they are mostly evil. They are the minions of Baphomet. If minotaurs can be a PC race, I guess ogres and trolls can too, but surprisingly Paizo has no intention to make them PC races at all though. Also, I'm still not sure whether making a large race into a PC race is desirable or not.
A quick glimpse at the wiki tells me that Nuar Spiritskin, the decidedly non-evil Minotaur who wants recognition for his people on Absalom, has been a part of the setting since 2008. Wouldn't you say he's waited long enough? I'd also point you to Extinction Curse making mention of non-evil Minotaurs on the Isle of Kortos, who sometimes trade with other Ancestries.
There's also the snarl of Baphomet Minotaurs being an OGL thing, so Paizo couldn't just keep doing that.
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Minotaurs get STR boost, CON boost, free boost, CHA flaw, hence they can start with STR CON and DEX boosted at the same time.Can't every ancestry do this?
Pick any 2 stats as your bonus, and go.
To put numbers to that, a level 1 minotaur final character could end up with +4 +3 +2 in their STR, CON, DEX in some order. Other ancestries could only end up with (I think) +4 +2 +2 or +4 +3 +1.
Which, to me at least, doesn't seem like all that big of a deal.
They could have a +4, +3, +3 in physical stats if they are Amnesiac.
Remember, they're large.
Not all of them. The 'minitaur' one is medium and it's nice that you can still take the reach feat even though you're not large.