Hear me out, I can explain this.
We know that magical teleportation is accomplished by going through the Astral or Ethereal plane to move to the destination, which I assume what happens is that you actually move that direction within the Ethereal Plane in a split second and then shift back to the Universe. If this assumption is correct, does it mean the Ethereal Plane could be used as a sort of hyperspace to (assuming you are godly wizard beyond the limits of the system I guess) teleport yourself to other places in the galaxy? Assuming the wizard is somehow familiar with the destination of course.
Baba Yaga's hut can hop between different planes, locations on Golarion and Earth, so there has to be some way to manage this. If you aren't dealing with the Drift from Starfinder and you don't have a hut with giant chicken legs, the best way I'd say to do this would be to cast Interplanar Teleport twice.
Going through the Ethereal directly might not be terribly efficient for whatever reason. Maybe leaving the metaphysical version of a gravity well isn't easy, even though translating to a different dimension is more possible.
Hear me out, I can explain this.
We know that magical teleportation is accomplished by going through the Astral or Ethereal plane to move to the destination, which I assume what happens is that you actually move that direction within the Ethereal Plane in a split second and then shift back to the Universe. If this assumption is correct, does it mean the Ethereal Plane could be used as a sort of hyperspace to (assuming you are godly wizard beyond the limits of the system I guess) teleport yourself to other places in the galaxy? Assuming the wizard is somehow familiar with the destination of course.
I mean...yeah? You can do this by level 13 assuming you have Interplanar Teleport. Pop into an adjacent plane with 1 casting, then cast again to return anywhere in the Material. It's highly imprecise, and you need to do some homework (for example, lets say you want to go to Castrovel: you'd need 1 creature that knows a safe place in the ethereal plane, and 1 creature that has been on Castrovel. After the trip is complete you don't need them anymore), but it's completely doable.
I assume Starfinder 2e will have easier magical or mundane means to traverse the universe though.
Astral or Ethereal travel through conventional spells could occur at or below the speed of light and we wouldn't be able to tell. I don't necessarily see why you would assume that they're FTL, and thus I don't see why it would be a candidate for shortcutting things like Drift Travel.
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The spell OP is probably looking for is Interplanetary Teleport (from Starfinder), or Rank 10 Teleport (from Pathfinder2e).
I'm assuming that the designation of FTL means that you will get to your destination faster than the light leaving your original location will. A hyperspace jaunt through the Ethereal plane could qualify under that meaning.
Also see Time Jump for a spell that may qualify for FTL travel under a different meaning.
As for Starfinder and still needing Drift travel, remember that pretty much all teleportation spells in PF2 say that you can't carry any other creatures or more than your bulk along with you. I think the only exceptions are Teleport and Interplanar Teleport, which both still have some pretty hard limits on what you can take with you. So for the Starfinder setting it makes plenty of setting-building sense that if you want to teleport an entire starship and all of its crew and cargo, you need Drift travel - not Teleport.
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or Rank 10 Teleport (from Pathfinder2e).
Rank 9 would do the trick.
It takes light just over 8 minutes to reach Earth from the Sun. Golarion's solar system is pretty much analogous to our own, so we can assume that it would take light about 13 and a half minutes to reach Akiton.
Given that Teleport has a cast time of 10 minutes, going anywhere beyond Eox pretty much means you are beating light there. Hence FTL.
Using Teleport to travel within the inner system (Aballon, Castrovel, Golarion) is technically sub-FTL, as light could cover the same distance in under 10 minutes.
I don't know how I wasn't aware that teleport allowed you to move to other planets lol. I also didn't thought of Baba Yaga's Hut as a sort of hyperspace drive (which is leagues ahead of anything I seen in fiction since it allows you to move instantly even between galaxies).
This kinda makes me want to know why Paizo went and created The Drift for Starfinder when under the justification of "technology gifted by the gods" that exists in Starfinder with drift engines the Ethereal Plane is as valid as an option to travel as The Drift. Ethereal engines would I call them?
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Having just finished 1e's Distant Worlds, I think the reason teleportation is unreliable as a form of FTL is that the margin of error increases with the distance between the two points. Thus, the Drift makes for a much more useful transitive plane because it's neither entirely unrelated to the Universe spatially (like the elemental planes), nor is it a 1:1 mirror (like the First and Netherworlds).
So, let's say there's a place I want to visit that's two lightyears away. If I pop into the Plane of Air and fly for half a lightyear, that won't actually bring me any closer to my destination, because without specific portals magically tethering them together, points within the Plane of Air don't relate to points within the Universe. It's likely that my ability to emerge in the Universe close to where I want to be will depend on how far away from it I was when I left.
Now, if I did the same thing, but instead in the Ethereal plane, I would be closer to my destination... by exactly half a lightyear. So my ethereal jaunt didn't actually save me any time or fuel.
The Drift is special because my half-lightyear flight might actually correspond to two lightyears in the Universe (or more/less depending on its topographical complexities), so going through it actually does dramatically improve the odds that I'll wind up close to where I want to be when I exit the plane.
I think it's definitely possible for someone to reduce this teleportational accuracy problem enough that they can forego the Drift entirely--Aeon Throne spoilers, but the ancient Azlanti certainly did--but it's apparently difficult enough to do that Triune found the Drift's creation necessary (or at least incredibly convenient). As for why not just use the Astral plane instead, I imagine it's because Starfinder's authors wanted their own, bespoke hyperspace rather than be beholden to the rules of already established planes.
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The concept of teleporting from one planet to another in a universe is something that never really got codified into the historical d20 game rules, and as we started to bring in outer space stuff in Pathfinder as part of the core campaign setting (as opposed to building a parallel campaign setting to hold that content) meant that the use of interplanetary teleport rules kinda got crammed into the game from the back end via adventures and the like...
But with 2nd edition, we've got those rules baked right in to the Core Rules with higher rank teleport spells. The intention is very much that interplanetary teleportation is meant to be instant, which is why it's gate-locked at very high level (and also not accurate in placing you on the exact desired location), so that it's not happening all the time. But yes, as defined in the glossary of the most recent rules (the Player Core), teleportation effects instantaneously move things. AKA faster than light.
One other thing to keep in mind—the idea that teleportation uses the Astral or Ethereal plane is a construct from D&D that crept into Pathfinder since we built the rules off of the 3.5 SRD. (Similarly, the idea that ghosts exist simultaneously on the ethereal and material planes is a D&D thing, not a Pathfinder thing). Teleport spells (and ghosts) in Pathfinder don't require access to other planes to function.
One other thing to keep in mind—the idea that teleportation uses the Astral or Ethereal plane is a construct from D&D that crept into Pathfinder since we built the rules off of the 3.5 SRD. (Similarly, the idea that ghosts exist simultaneously on the ethereal and material planes is a D&D thing, not a Pathfinder thing). Teleport spells (and ghosts) in Pathfinder don't require access to other planes to function.
That's something I'll keep in mind in the future for sure. Has this been explained in some PF1e or PF2e book and I glossed over it?
As a side note to the current topic of weird interactions of the Ethereal Plane, aether is the essence found in the Ehtereal Plane that, among other things, can mimic matter, right? Well, as per Secrets of Magic, matter includes things like air or water, so could someone technically manipulate aether to make it breatheable for bot air and water-breathing creatures? I'm inclined to say the answer would be yes as people don't suffocate on the Ethereal Plane, but if a fish somehow phased into the Ethereal Plane would it be able to breathe too? Probably there's an example of this somewhere that I'm missing.
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Triune found the Drift's creation necessary (or at least incredibly convenient)
Triune didn't create the Drift. One of the post-Drift Crisis APs features a forgotten race who evolved in the Drift and disappeared millenia ago. Triune hasn't seen their fourth century as a unified entity.
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One other thing to keep in mind—the idea that teleportation uses the Astral or Ethereal plane is a construct from D&D that crept into Pathfinder since we built the rules off of the 3.5 SRD. (Similarly, the idea that ghosts exist simultaneously on the ethereal and material planes is a D&D thing, not a Pathfinder thing). Teleport spells (and ghosts) in Pathfinder don't require access to other planes to function.That's something I'll keep in mind in the future for sure. Has this been explained in some PF1e or PF2e book and I glossed over it?
As a side note to the current topic of weird interactions of the Ethereal Plane, aether is the essence found in the Ehtereal Plane that, among other things, can mimic matter, right? Well, as per Secrets of Magic, matter includes things like air or water, so could someone technically manipulate aether to make it breatheable for bot air and water-breathing creatures? I'm inclined to say the answer would be yes as people don't suffocate on the Ethereal Plane, but if a fish somehow phased into the Ethereal Plane would it be able to breathe too? Probably there's an example of this somewhere that I'm missing.
Not beyond the fact that we specifically didn't put in language about it working differently from D&D. It's weird to me to spend precious wordcount on, say, the ghost entry in the bestiary (already a complex creature that demands extra rules and extra guidance on how to use them narratively) saying "Oh by the way this DOESN'T work the same way that ghosts do in the world's oldest fantasy-based tabletop roleplaying game." It's tricky making assumptions that things work in Pathfinder the same way they do in any other d20-based game, in other words.
As for being able to breathe in the Ethereal Plane, the assumption there is that whenever we present a place for a PC to adventure in, we'll make note of exceptions to the baseline. That includes being able to breathe or not—if a plane or location or whatever doesn't say "You suffocate here" or the like, then you can assume you can breathe fine there. This is also complicated, of course, by that same wordcount devil—when we DO talk about other planes, we very rarely do so in a format that gives us the space to go into fine details like this, because traditionally big books about the other planes never focus on one, but a bunch of them, so that ironically leaves less room to go into those sorts of details unfortunately.
Yeah, it's kinda hard to go over those details when you frame it from an in-universe perspective (it wouldn't make sense for a character in a book to explain teleportation doesn't require the Ethereal or Astral Plane since its not like they used to require them at one point. Well, technically it did, but that would be a different question if a setting in a different system is like an alternate dimension of sorts with their own rules, but I digress).
Thanks for the insight James!
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I don't know how I wasn't aware that teleport allowed you to move to other planets lol. I also didn't thought of Baba Yaga's Hut as a sort of hyperspace drive (which is leagues ahead of anything I seen in fiction since it allows you to move instantly even between galaxies).
This kinda makes me want to know why Paizo went and created The Drift for Starfinder when under the justification of "technology gifted by the gods" that exists in Starfinder with drift engines the Ethereal Plane is as valid as an option to travel as The Drift. Ethereal engines would I call them?
While James already noted that the planar element of teleportation is old lore no longer in effect, Starfinder does have FTL ships that dip into the Netherworld (previously Shadow Plane) to travel at a better exchange rate. (They run on suffering, so it's not exactly a popular approach.) The main thing Starfinder leans on is that non-magical access to the Drift is a lot easier than magical FTL. Sure, you can travel anywhere in the galaxy instantly! ... If you're one of the most powerful mages short of living legends like Baba Yaga. Anyone who can do that is probably booked solid with huge sums of money paid to cheat travel times and inter-system communication delays.
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Yeah, it's kinda hard to go over those details when you frame it from an in-universe perspective (it wouldn't make sense for a character in a book to explain teleportation doesn't require the Ethereal or Astral Plane since its not like they used to require them at one point. Well, technically it did, but that would be a different question if a setting in a different system is like an alternate dimension of sorts with their own rules, but I digress).
Thanks for the insight James!
No problem!
And it's not even an issue of an "in-universe perspective." It's more an issue of "just how much flavor is a publisher allowed to use from D&D if they use the OGL?" that is the problem. Traditionally, we've chosen to focus in print on the new stuff or the additive stuff and to keep away from specifically spelling out "it works this way in D&D but not in Pathfinder" content because that starts to get weird.
It's complicated of course by the fact that we built Pathfinder off of the OGL and SRD, so there's decades of assumptions and traditions that sneak in through the cracks. We wouldn't have had to deal with that if we'd made up our own game from the start or built off of a different game's bones, but given the way things were at back then with Paizo being in the unique position of being the only non-WotC company producing content for D&D on a monthly basis that worked very closely with WotC...
Messageboards are a casual enough place to chat about it though.
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James, what are you thoughts on casting Plane Shift/Interplanar Teleport twice as a means to get "close" to a target destination on the first plane?
Like I shift to the ethereal plane (or wherever) and then shift back to the material plane but with the destination of Akiton in mind? Sure it takes 2 spells slots, but they're lower level spells. It also takes 20 minutes, and is less precise in arrival destination.
Still, it seems like it should work, but the existence of the higher level versions of teleport make it feel like it shouldn't work.
Edit: Actually never mind, the dev team did build in something to stop this. Plane shift now takes you to the last location any one of your targets was at (with error) on the plane you're shifting to. No more using plane shift to get to other planets it looks like. Unless you meet a traveler from Akiton in the other plane and decide to visit wherever they left.
Starfinder does have FTL ships that dip into the Netherworld (previously Shadow Plane) to travel at a better exchange rate. (They run on suffering, so it's not exactly a popular approach.)
This is actually really cool! I didn't know about that.
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Starfinder does have FTL ships that dip into the Netherworld (previously Shadow Plane) to travel at a better exchange rate. (They run on suffering, so it's not exactly a popular approach.)
This is actually really cool! I didn't know about that.
Mhmm! Details on shadow engines. I think there are several other plane-hopping engines too, from a quick skim. They're generally riskier than drift engines, since the elemental planes are hazardous (especially to something like a ship designed for travel in vacuum) and the outer planes require some very firm moral commitments for related drives.
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This is tangentially related, but how would a high level caster go about travelling between Golarion and Earth? Would Interplanar Transport work for this case? Is Earth in another plane from Golarion?No. Earth and Golarion are both in the Universe, so theoretically, if you knew where Earth was, you could get there via a high enough level teleportation spell.
We haven't said if Earth is in the same galaxy as Golarion yet, I don't think. If Earth is in a different galaxy, you'd need something more powerful than a 10th-level telport. And since we've not yet had anyone from Golarion teleport here to visit us, that kinda tells me that Golarion and Earth are indeed in different galaxies.
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One assumes that intergalactic teleport would require mythic/artifact level magic, which is why Baba Yaga can do it but one's 20th level Wizard cannot.
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How would you resolve...
1: Cast a flashy spell like fireball, which kills some creatures.
2: Teleport 1.2 million miles away, the distance light travels in 1 round, next to an extremely powerful telescope.
3: you now can see the fireball from 1 round ago manifest.
4: cast counterspell to stop it.
5: The creatures, who are now alive in the past, kill you before you teleport.
6: since you didn't teleport, you never countered the spell and thus the creatures are dead.
We know that magical teleportation is accomplished by going through the Astral or Ethereal plane to move to the destination, which I assume what happens is that you actually move that direction within the Ethereal Plane in a split second and then shift back to the Universe.
Is it? Where is it mentioned? I don't remember reading it in any of the D&D, Pathfinder, or Starfinder rulebooks. Can you tell me?
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How would you resolve...
1: Cast a flashy spell like fireball, which kills some creatures.
2: Teleport 1.2 million miles away, the distance light travels in 1 round, next to an extremely powerful telescope.
3: you now can see the fireball from 1 round ago manifest.
4: cast counterspell to stop it.
5: The creatures, who are now alive in the past, kill you before you teleport.
6: since you didn't teleport, you never countered the spell and thus the creatures are dead.
By switching from Pathfinder to Traveler.
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How would you resolve...
This is entirely caused by trying to mix IRL physics with game rules. Pick one.
IRL physics, this obviously isn't even possible. So...
Also, if you are somehow moving to your destination faster than the light travels, the fact that you can see the event happening doesn't mean that it didn't already happen in the past. What you are seeing is the image of it happening. Pre-recorded and streamed. You are just watching the rerun.
Game Rules, using vision assistance things like scrying magic or a telescope doesn't inherently grant line of effect. So you wouldn't be able to counterspell.
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How would you resolve...This is entirely caused by trying to mix IRL physics with game rules. Pick one.
IRL physics, this obviously isn't even possible. So...
Also, if you are somehow moving to your destination faster than the light travels, the fact that you can see the event happening doesn't mean that it didn't already happen in the past. What you are seeing is the image of it happening. Pre-recorded and streamed. You are just watching the rerun.
Game Rules, using vision assistance things like scrying magic or a telescope doesn't inherently grant line of effect. So you wouldn't be able to counterspell.
Indeed. The Teleport is not constrained by the speed of light but the counterspell is.
How would you resolve...This is entirely caused by trying to mix IRL physics with game rules. Pick one.
Well yes. It's just a fun question about the paradox created by FTL teleportation. I am a nerd.
Also, if you are somehow moving to your destination faster than the light travels, the fact that you can see the event happening doesn't mean that it didn't already happen in the past. What you are seeing is the image of it happening. Pre-recorded and streamed. You are just watching the rerun.
Light will always take some amount of time to reach your eyes. Weather it's 10 nanosecond in the past or 6 seconds, your targeting something in the past.
Either you can counterspell in the past, or a lot of reactions don't work.
game Rules, using vision assistance things like scrying magic or a telescope doesn't inherently grant line of effect. So you wouldn't be able to counterspell.
"You have line of effect unless a creature is entirely behind a solid physical barrier".
Obviously it won't work if your on the other side of a mountain range, but go straight up and there is no range limit on line of effect.
Indeed. The Teleport is not constrained by the speed of light but the counterspell is.
that just makes it easier.
You need to only go 3 light seconds away. And add 3 light seconds for counterspell to travel back.
Though I see nothing suggesting magic travels at the speed of light.
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...
Also, if you are somehow moving to your destination faster than the light travels, the fact that you can see the event happening doesn't mean that it didn't already happen in the past. What you are seeing is the image of it happening. Pre-recorded and streamed. You are just watching the rerun.
...
The problem is that under relativity, faster than light travel would allow you to watch those events occur through the telescope, go back in time to Golarion before those events occurred, and then stop those events from occurring.
Relativity, FTL travel, and causality can't all be true.
Why would relativity allow something to go backwards in time?
My understanding of relativity and time compression due to differences in speed and gravity are that all of the observation frames are still going forward in time. Some are going forward at different rates than others, but you still can't go backward.
So when two observation frames are moving at different rates through time, a synchronized clock in each frame will end up unsynchronized.
But when an event happens, it has already happened (whether you see it or not). No matter how fast you travel, you won't arrive to that location before the event happens.
Why would relativity allow something to go backwards in time?
T' = t / sqrt (1 - (v^2 / c^2))
Keeping with 6 seconds for t, and going half the speed of light
6 / Sqrt (1 - (.5^2 / 1^2))
6 / sqrt (1 - .25)
6 / sqrt (.75)
6 / 0.86602540378
= 6.9282
If your going twice the speed of light.
6 Sqrt (1 - (2^2 / 1^2))
6 / sqrt (1 - 4)
6 / sqrt (-3)
6 / 1.73205081 * sqrt(-1)
= 3.4641016103 * sqrt(-1)
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PathfinderWiki cites this thread from 2016:
And that's why I nixed Mark's theory about where Golarion is, frankly, because Golarion is in a different galaxy than Earth; a galaxy where magic is more common. And Androffa (from Iron Gods) is in a THIRD galaxy. I want all these three planets to be super far apart because that helps to KEEP them separate and, frankly, because it gives us more time to maintain the illusion about whether or not there IS a Golarion out there. As Mark points out, there are stars in our galaxy that you can observe at 93 light years away, and that's too close for me.
Mark's central flaw to his theory is the assumption that he's basing it on science and the idea that light is a constant and that nothing can travel faster than that. When something travels instantaneously (like teleport, or the Dancing Hut of Baba Yaga), all that science logic breaks down. If something traveling faster than the speed of light appears to be traveling back in time, then something traveling INFINITELY faster than that (as in the case of instant travel like this) breaks that assumption entirely. Which means Golarion could essentially be anywhere.
A lot has changed in the past 8 years, not the least of which is that I'm no longer the sole creative director for Pathfinder. Comments I make here on the boards are meant to be taken as my advice or opinions, and shouldn't be given equal weight to something we officially publish in a book—something that I wasn't quite as clear about 8 years ago.
Pathfinder—and Golarion—are not something that only one person controls. It's a shared creation among Paizo's entire creative staff, and my role as a creative director is to direct the creativity (currently, I share that role with Luis, with me focusing on the adventures and him focusing on the rules and lore) and not to be the arbitrary decider of all of it.
My take on things, as quoted above, remains my personal preference, and if the need to put this lore into print manifests, I'll suggest and direct the creativity in that direction but the actual decision will be made not just by me.
IIRC the helldrive required at least one person operating it to have a contract for their soul extant, or it wouldn't work. I could be off though.Mhmm! Details on shadow engines. I think there are several other plane-hopping engines too, from a quick skim. They're generally riskier than drift engines, since the elemental planes are hazardous (especially to something like a ship designed for travel in vacuum) and the outer planes require some very firm moral commitments for related drives.Starfinder does have FTL ships that dip into the Netherworld (previously Shadow Plane) to travel at a better exchange rate. (They run on suffering, so it's not exactly a popular approach.)
This is actually really cool! I didn't know about that.
I been researching a little (I.E searching for keywords and reading items in Archives of Nethys) and I noticed to my surprise that there's actually a few drives that aren't Drift engines in Starfinder. I found about shadow engines (which were mentioned in this post earlier), elemental engines, archon drives, first drives, and helldrives. I'm curious though, helldrives have an engine rating (that plus their description imply they are used to FTL) though how exactly can they use Hell to circumvent Material Plane distances when Hell isn't a plane that (unless I'm missing something) has locations that correspond to physical locations on the Material Plane?
I been researching a little (I.E searching for keywords and reading items in Archives of Nethys) and I noticed to my surprise that there's actually a few drives that aren't Drift engines in Starfinder. I found about shadow engines (which were mentioned in this post earlier), elemental engines, archon drives, first drives, and helldrives. I'm curious though, helldrives have an engine rating (that plus their description imply they are used to FTL) though how exactly can they use Hell to circumvent Material Plane distances when Hell isn't a plane that (unless I'm missing something) has locations that correspond to physical locations on the Material Plane?IIRC the helldrive required at least one person operating it to have a contract for their soul extant, or it wouldn't work. I could be off though.Mhmm! Details on shadow engines. I think there are several other plane-hopping engines too, from a quick skim. They're generally riskier than drift engines, since the elemental planes are hazardous (especially to something like a ship designed for travel in vacuum) and the outer planes require some very firm moral commitments for related drives.Starfinder does have FTL ships that dip into the Netherworld (previously Shadow Plane) to travel at a better exchange rate. (They run on suffering, so it's not exactly a popular approach.)
This is actually really cool! I didn't know about that.
There is some sort of localization to the Outer Planes. It's very vague and hand-wavey, but (back when Plane Shift was a regular spell), two castings of Plane Shift didn't just get you anywhere in the galaxy or beyond. That sort of thing is in the same category as "Where are all the aliens in Hell?" where one's interactions with the Outer Planes aren't as concrete and objective as they are in the universe proper.
I know, that's why I'm asking the logistic behind it, because I don't see how moving in Hell would get you closer to a place in the Material Plane when both are independent from each other and aren't even in the same sphere. It makes sense for shadow engines since those use the Shadow Plane / Netherworld which is a warped reflection of the Material Plane, the same with first drives and the First World, but not so much with helldrives and Hell.
To be a little more on-topic, I found a little weird that the only transitive plane that doesn't have its own engine is the Ethereal Plane (and I guess the Astral Plane too, though that one is usually used to transition between the Inner Sphere and Outer Sphere, so I guess it makes sense).
...
Also, if you are somehow moving to your destination faster than the light travels, the fact that you can see the event happening doesn't mean that it didn't already happen in the past. What you are seeing is the image of it happening. Pre-recorded and streamed. You are just watching the rerun.
...The problem is that under relativity, faster than light travel would allow you to watch those events occur through the telescope, go back in time to Golarion before those events occurred, and then stop those events from occurring.
Relativity, FTL travel, and causality can't all be true.
Teleportation is colloquially "getting where I want to go now".
Planet A and B are one light year apart. If I'm sitting on Planet A, and I get a radio signal from B saying, "We just reset our calendar to Year 0!", I know that it took a year to get to me. That means it's Year 1 on B right "now". So, if I teleported to B, I would expect to arrive there at Year 1.
Let's say I do just that, and before I do, I send radio reply from A to B. When I teleport to B, I say, "Hey, just got your message you sent a year ago! You can expect a reply in another year, but I figured I'd hop over in the meantime."
From B, I can look back at A, and (assuming impossible resolution) "see" myself from a year ago, but when I teleport back to A, it's still a year later than what the signals show, a little while after I left for my brief trip to B. It's still clearly "FTL", because I am arriving before the light-speed radio message I sent, but I don't have any ability to break what would casually be considered causality.
... Out of curiosity, I checked if hopping to the other side of the galaxy gets you any interesting changes to relative flows of time, but no, neither the spinning of the galaxy nor its expansion get anywhere near casually observable shifts.
I was very curious about this so I checked the core rulebooks of Pathfinder First Edition, Second Edition and Starfinder again yet still found nothing. Can I assume that the OP's assumption (teleportation is accomplished by going through the Astral or Ethereal plane to move to the destination) has no evidence at all? Not sure if it was mentioned somewhere in the D&D rulebooks but I honestly have no idea.
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I was very curious about this so I checked the core rulebooks of Pathfinder First Edition, Second Edition and Starfinder again yet still found nothing. Can I assume that the OP's assumption (teleportation is accomplished by going through the Astral or Ethereal plane to move to the destination) has no evidence at all? Not sure if it was mentioned somewhere in the D&D rulebooks but I honestly have no idea.
Found an old character sheet digging out my physical copy to have a look! XD
In my CRB it's on page 210 in the description for the teleportation subschool of Conjuration:
Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.
PS: This is, of course, a carryover from D&D and is, per James above, no longer canon to the way magic works. Not the least of which reason being it has nothing to do with Pathfinder.
Why would relativity allow something to go backwards in time?
My understanding of relativity and time compression due to differences in speed and gravity are that all of the observation frames are still going forward in time. Some are going forward at different rates than others, but you still can't go backward.
So when two observation frames are moving at different rates through time, a synchronized clock in each frame will end up unsynchronized.
But when an event happens, it has already happened (whether you see it or not). No matter how fast you travel, you won't arrive to that location before the event happens.
Here are a few classic examples of how FTL travel can break causality.
...
Also, if you are somehow moving to your destination faster than the light travels, the fact that you can see the event happening doesn't mean that it didn't already happen in the past. What you are seeing is the image of it happening. Pre-recorded and streamed. You are just watching the rerun.
...The problem is that under relativity, faster than light travel would allow you to watch those events occur through the telescope, go back in time to Golarion before those events occurred, and then stop those events from occurring.
Relativity, FTL travel, and causality can't all be true.
Teleportation is colloquially "getting where I want to go now".
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Ah, but now is a relative concept in relativity. In your example you seem to assume that there is only one reference frame involved. Consider what might happen if that isn't the case.
As one specific example, consider that, when teleporting, your departure and arrival are spacelike-separated events. So there are reference frames in which you arrived before you departed.
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Indeed. The Teleport is not constrained by the speed of light but the counterspell is.that just makes it easier.
You need to only go 3 light seconds away. And add 3 light seconds for counterspell to travel back.
Though I see nothing suggesting magic travels at the speed of light.
Line of sight.
Now, maybe Teleport is actually a field of quantic magic, the place where quantic physics and magic interact.
Indeed. The Teleport is not constrained by the speed of light but the counterspell is.that just makes it easier.
You need to only go 3 light seconds away. And add 3 light seconds for counterspell to travel back.
Though I see nothing suggesting magic travels at the speed of light.
Line of sight.
Now, maybe Teleport is actually a field of quantic magic, the place where quantic physics and magic interact.
line of sight does not necessarily mean speed of light. Though I do agree it could imply that.
But if it does, then teleportation is not FTL. Since your magic needs to reach your destination.
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Indeed. The Teleport is not constrained by the speed of light but the counterspell is.that just makes it easier.
You need to only go 3 light seconds away. And add 3 light seconds for counterspell to travel back.
Though I see nothing suggesting magic travels at the speed of light.
Line of sight.
Now, maybe Teleport is actually a field of quantic magic, the place where quantic physics and magic interact.
line of sight does not necessarily mean speed of light. Though I do agree it could imply that.
But if it does, then teleportation is not FTL. Since your magic needs to reach your destination.
Hence quantic magic. Where magic meets FTL. And other weird things too.
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Also, if you are somehow moving to your destination faster than the light travels, the fact that you can see the event happening doesn't mean that it didn't already happen in the past. What you are seeing is the image of it happening. Pre-recorded and streamed. You are just watching the rerun.
...The problem is that under relativity, faster than light travel would allow you to watch those events occur through the telescope, go back in time to Golarion before those events occurred, and then stop those events from occurring.
Relativity, FTL travel, and causality can't all be true.
Teleportation is colloquially "getting where I want to go now".
...Ah, but now is a relative concept in relativity. In your example you seem to assume that there is only one reference frame involved. Consider what might happen if that isn't the case.
As one specific example, consider that, when teleporting, your departure and arrival are spacelike-separated events. So there are reference frames in which you arrived before you departed.
I definitely don't have the experience to discuss this very effectively- I had only a loose grasp on relativity when I learned it to begin with, and it's been a while since then! But, I'm going to give it a go, because it's a nice opportunity to re-learn some things. My assumption is teleportation would use the "Now" = time I see + (distance / speed of light), calculated from point of departure.
For your example, B (your target destination) is one such example. B will see you arrive at local-to-B Year 1 (one year after they sent their radio message), and will see you leave at local-to-B Year 2 (one year after you received their radio message). But if you teleport back, you are still returning after your departure. Many frames will observe the events out of order, but even with teleportation, they can't interfere with the events occurring.
That's all just a stationary reference, though, so let's see what happens when we chuck in some relativistic speeds.
The fastest observed stars in the galaxy are moving at 1/2 c, thanks to black hole shenanigans. Let's go with that.
At are starting instant in time, A and B are one light year apart, traveling apart at 1/2 c, which is to say, half a light year per year. For simplicity, we will assume A is stationary and B is moving. What does "starting instant" mean? It means that if you teleported from A to B, or B to A, shouting "Now!" on leaving and arrival, it'd be the same time. If teleportation arrives at the time "observed now plus distance / speed of light", then that means that they are a light-year apart and seeing the light of one year ago. (Something feels a little off there, but we'll go ahead and see if it breaks later.)
Starting at A, I teleport to B, spend a year of observed time there, and teleport back. In that year, we have moved half a light-year apart. When I teleport back, it should be a... year and a half after the observed time I see, since I'm saying that "now" is time I see + (distance / speed of light).
So, how much later do I arrive back from A's perspective? Well, B was seeing light from a year ago. A year has passed from B's perspective, and moving away at 0.5 c, the calculator says that the slower clock of A from B's perspective means that only 0.866 years have passed. When I teleport from B back to A, I arrive at a time in A of -1 year + 0.866 years + (1.5 light years / (1 light year per year)) = 1.366 years after I left. From A's perspective, observing the full length of time that I took to stay there takes 1.155 years by the calculator, because time seems to be moving slower there. That's a difference of 0.211 showing up because of time dilation, so yeah, "now" doesn't really stay in sync properly.
If we swing the direction around, and A and B are moving towards each other at 0.5 c, the return time calculation becomes -1 year + 0.866 years + (0.5 light years / (1 light year per year)) = 0.366 years after I left from A's perspective. Entering 0.366 years from A, that means 0.422 years have passed from B's perspective. If we hopped back, -1 + 0.422 + (0.5 light years / (1 light year per year)) = -0.078 years, which is 28.5 days before I leave B to return to A.
Yeah, my earlier stuff wasn't taking time dilation into account at all, just basic Doppler shift stuff! I'm nowhere near sure I did the math right/applied the time dilation calculator tool correctly, but it's definitely convinced me that it's not as simple as compensating for how old the light you're seeing is.
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Since your magic needs to reach your destination.
That is not necessarily true.
Back-dooring in implicit physical limitations to something which can fundamentally break physical laws seems like an approach which will only lead to problems.
Magic only plays by magics own rules. Without some sort of fundamental theory behind us, expecting it to work like physics just isn't going to work.
The most basic of cantrips break thermodynamic principles and can reverse entropy in sufficiently localised systems. Expecting it to obey energy-mass equivalence and the implications there-of seems counter productive.