Name 1 thing you think is Overpowered in Pf-2E. I am curious what you think it is.
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Diverse Lore
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Bards.
How are bards Overpowered?
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Overpowered is a pretty strong word. I think there aren't a thing really OP in PF2.
But still there are some thing that are pretty more efficient than others like Skunk Bombs and Synesthesia, Winter Sleet or maybe Cyclonic Ascent in exploration. But it's not something OP. Its more easier to find subpar things than OP things.
How are bards Overpowered?
They are a class with a very efficient action economy with some focus point efficient focus spells with also very good focus cantrips with one of the best traditions with a pretty good chassis for a caster.
But as I said its an efficient class but you wont see something like the bard players dominating the gameplay.
For same reasons we could put Kineticist in the same pattern too.
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How are bards Overpowered?
Full caster spellcasting plus a significant persistent low-effort nearly party-wide buff on top of that, and 8 base hp.
Admittedly, they are party-dependent. A bard does much better in a party that's already heavy on the martials. Given a party like that, though....
I note here that I'm speaking in context of PF2. If we were talking about 3.x's idea of "overpowered" then there's nothing in the game that qualifies. You asked for most overpowered, though, which puts it into a PF2 context. In that context? Bards.
Good points about bards!
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Dice, you can't get away from them no matter how fast you are, Dice can take down the highest level PC or the strongest dragon. You can't trust dice, or rely on them, but are completely dependent on them. You can't break their will even with a dice jail. Best to throw them down a tower and into a tray or they might run away. Despite all of this some people collect them and hoard them. Having dice is a lot like having a cat, you think you are in control but you're really not. Dice will let you let them control your fate.
That is very good!
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Diverse Lore
I'd argue that Bardic Lore and other similar abilities are weak rather than Diverse Lore being OP. Even when we are speaking about skills that technically allow you to replace every single RK skill in the game with just a single skill, the fact that it only goes up to expert at 15th level if you increase to legendary another skill is IMO plainly bad.
most overpowered things are some clunky shenanigans from AP books
prey mutagen, pin to the spot, pre errata heavens thunder, quick spring, illusory shroud, instant parade.
Excuse me Quick Spring does WHAT!? Some of those AP stuff is crazy...
How are bards Overpowered?Full caster spellcasting plus a significant persistent low-effort nearly party-wide buff on top of that, and 8 base hp.
Admittedly, they are party-dependent. A bard does much better in a party that's already heavy on the martials. Given a party like that, though....
I note here that I'm speaking in context of PF2. If we were talking about 3.x's idea of "overpowered" then there's nothing in the game that qualifies. You asked for most overpowered, though, which puts it into a PF2 context. In that context? Bards.
The good thing about their strength is that it lies in supporting the teammates and its power also requires some system expertise, since they still rely on spells, with all its drawbacks and strengths.
We shouldn't forget that they have some major issues with target Saving Throws, leaning really heavily towards Will and sense dependent stuff, all the while lacking in one of the strongest uses for spells. Battlefield control.
most overpowered things are some clunky shenanigans from AP books
prey mutagen, pin to the spot, pre errata heavens thunder, quick spring, illusory shroud, instant parade.
Firebrands is LO, not AP.
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Teamwork is pretty OP in PF2 as a whole. Little else (that players can control) has as big an impact on success.
Trip Maneuver, especially when combined with reaction attacks. If you were watching the trip maneuver in a movie, it would look incredibly goofy. Group runs up, guy trips someone down, tripped guy stands up and everyone whacks on him as he stands up. Rinse and repeat for each target. It would be a goofy action fantasy movie of a roving band of adventurers knocking people down and hitting them as they stand up. It would not look heroic at all. In fact, it would look rather dishonorable and goofy.
Starlit Span Imaginary weapon magus.
That's about all I've seen that seems tuned a bit too high.
Bards are good, but only at empowering a group. Druids are better overall damage casters. We've run without bards and not experienced problems.
Synesthesia is only good within the context of a group debuff, not overly powerful all by itself. It sets up a group so well from making tripping easier to allowing everyone to hit easier. If you don't have it, you'll still do fine as long as you have a trip monkey and reaction attacks.
I hear Starlit Span Magus but I just do not see how it is OP. Maybe i am missing something that makes it crazy powerful. Is it just the ranged spell strike every turn?
To me Diverse Lore with Assurance is a bit on the crazy side. Since you get to ignore the -2 penalty at the cost of Cha or rolling but you just know literally everything, not to mention Automatic Knowledge if you are mildly curious but that isn't as good as just Assurancing yourself to know everything without rolling.
One of the Witch Patrons hex spells until errata'd gives you infinite Recall Knowledges.
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Hmm... the real issue with diverse lore+assurance, in my mind, is the burden it creates on the GM when combined with dubious knowledge (Which of course is built into the Thaumaturge). Assurance can't hit level based DCs, but it doesn't crit fail them either, so if a Thaumaturge uses the combo a lot, the GM is put on the spot to generate a lot of convincing sounding lies.
Personally, I mostly use assurance (Esoteric Lore) for exploint weakness against mooks. Given the risk of critical failures is minimal for Thaumaturges, I feel going for the good chance of success and decent chance to crit is better.
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Hmm... the real issue with diverse lore+assurance, in my mind, is the burden it creates on the GM when combined with dubious knowledge (Which of course is built into the Thaumaturge). Assurance can't hit level based DCs, but it doesn't crit fail them either, so if a Thaumaturge uses the combo a lot, the GM is put on the spot to generate a lot of convincing sounding lies.
Personally, I mostly use assurance (Esoteric Lore) for exploint weakness against mooks. Given the risk of critical failures is minimal for Thaumaturges, I feel going for the good chance of success and decent chance to crit is better.
Tbh, that's pretty easy. Since RK is focused now on a question (lowest save, weakness/resistance, combat abilities, etc), just pick one correct answer and one plausible answer within the same catagory; so like "it's lowest save is will or reflex", "either it has no weaknesses, or a weakness to fire", "it has either arcane or occult spellcasting"
I hear Starlit Span Magus but I just do not see how it is OP. Maybe i am missing something that makes it crazy powerful. Is it just the ranged spell strike every turn?
Starlit Span Magus with imaginary weapon essentially reaps the benefits of a number of different options without paying the associated prices.
- Standard Magus is really good at burst damage, but must be in melee (while being a little on the fragile side for a martial), suffers from opportunity attacks, and runs out of actions rapidly, as spellstrike is two-action, must be recharged via a third action, melee needs actions to move into position, and so forth. Starlit Span, being at range, gets to ignore most of these and significantly reduces the "running out of actions" problem.
- Ranged martials get great accuracy and don't have to worry about moving into position, but pay for it with reduced damage as compared to their melee martial friends. For a Magus, though, weapon damage is a comparatively small percentage of their total damage output, making this disadvantage less significant.
- imaginary weapon is a cantrip attack originally intended for a relatively fragile class (psychic) that required fighting in melee. It's fairly high damage for a cantrip, and the heightened version is particularly strong for a focus spell once it reaches higher levels. It's good for a standard magus (who isn't nearly so fragile and can afford to get into melee) and even better for a starlit span who gets to ignore that melee range limitation altogether.
- True Strike is a spell that's potentially very powerful, but kind of niche in some ways, as it requires an attacker who can cast the thing for themselves, and vs-AC spells are not always great. For various reasons, a Magus with spellstrike is an almost ideal use case, but it's still a bit awkward for the standard magus, as it takes an action and must be done on the same turn as the attack... which means that in order to make use of the combo you have to start within range of the enemy, with a fully charged spellstrike ready. In some ways it's similar to the shenanigans that high-level flurry rangers get up to, where it takes real effort to set up, but if you can actually get one to go off properly you can get some real blender factor. Well... the Starlit Span magus has no problem with this. They even get to benefit fromt eh fact that their preferred weapon is 1+ hands rather than 2, and they aren't using a shield anyway, so they can use scrolls without additional issue. Walk into the fight with a bow in one hand and a True Strike scroll in the other, and on your turn read off the second before spellstriking with the first. It's easy. Get up a few levels, and those level 1 scrolls start getting pretty cheap.
...oh, and as a specific little extra, IW has a bonus push on crit. A Magus with consistent access to TS is actually pretty decent at pulling crits, in way that a standard caster casting normally isn't.
Now, a fair bit of this stuff (IW scaling, cheap TS scrolls) doesn't really kick in until higher levels anyway, but it certainly does kick in there.
Doesn't true strike make you only able to Spell-strike once every 2 turns meaning regardless, if you just spell-strike every turn you get the same critical chance? Unless the idea with TS and IW is to not miss when used because from 5th edition Advantage math is roughly a +5, meaning TS in Pf-2E is roughly a +5 bonus...Hmmm. This is actually pretty interesting to think about it. +5 is greater then simple firing twice in 2 rounds and hoping you hit.
Doesn't true strike make you only able to Spell-strike once every 2 turns meaning regardless, if you just spell-strike every turn you get the same critical chance? Unless the idea with TS and IW is to not miss when used because from 5th edition Advantage math is roughly a +5, meaning TS in Pf-2E is roughly a +5 bonus...Hmmm. This is actually pretty interesting to think about it. +5 is greater then simple firing twice in 2 rounds and hoping you hit.
So there's a few things going on here.
First, there's just the first round. Like, literally, as a starlit span magus, you walk into a fight with a bow, a TS scroll in your offhand, and a nice powerful slot spell in your mind. First turn, you read the scroll and spellstrike. Then you slip into your recharge/spellstrike rotation. Sure, it's only that first round, but "first round nova" is a pretty big deal, and starlit span magus does it better than anyone.
Second, "roll twice" is not the same as "+5". It's good, but it's not that good. it's probably more like +3 or +4, all things considered. For simple attack rolls it's mathematically equivalent to +5 under ideal circumstances, (where you have exactly a 50/50 shot) and gets less and less useful as it wanders either way off of that. PF2's degrees of success thing means that it never actually hits that magical 50% mark because it's being judged at multiple places along the line.
In general, I wouldn't say that it's worth losing spellstrike rounds in order to get more true strikes in, but if you have to lose a spellstrike round or two anyway (like, say, you need to move for some reason, or chug a potion or something) then being able to leverage that to get another true strike can certainly take a bit of the sting out.
I hear Starlit Span Magus but I just do not see how it is OP. Maybe i am missing something that makes it crazy powerful. Is it just the ranged spell strike every turn?
To me Diverse Lore with Assurance is a bit on the crazy side. Since you get to ignore the -2 penalty at the cost of Cha or rolling but you just know literally everything, not to mention Automatic Knowledge if you are mildly curious but that isn't as good as just Assurancing yourself to know everything without rolling.
One of the Witch Patrons hex spells until errata'd gives you infinite Recall Knowledges.
Regular Starlit Span magus is fine. Starlit Span imaginary weapon a little too high tuned.
Mentioning that the design of the dromaeosaur in PC1 is wildly archaic and disappointing. Apparently it causes severe damage!
On a serious note I also would say Starlit Span is wildly out of step with the rest of the game and makes all other archers seem quite pathetic and nearly competes with our highest melee damage dealers, which is not okay
The witch and their infinite wands exploit (Ceremonial Knife).
Regular Starlit Span magus is fine. Starlit Span imaginary weapon a little too high tuned.
Hmm. I was going to compare it to Fire Ray, but the fact that the dedication is handing you an extra focus point makes that one pretty hard to defend... especially when they aren't even available until level 4, and Imaginary Weapon edges ahead by level 5.
I still feel like Starlit Span in general is a bit degenerate, but it's true that archetyping for Imaginary Weapon is a particularly good combo for it.
Ceremonial Knife was just funny as it is clearly busted.
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I wouldn't put Ceremonial Knife in the same category since the way it's 'broken' has more to do with some poor editing choices. SS/IW is everything working completely normally in an unobtuse way, so it stands out a bit more.
Regular Starlit Span magus is fine. Starlit Span imaginary weapon a little too high tuned.Hmm. I was going to compare it to Fire Ray, but the fact that the dedication is handing you an extra focus point makes that one pretty hard to defend... especially when they aren't even available until level 4, and Imaginary Weapon edges ahead by level 5.
I still feel like Starlit Span in general is a bit degenerate, but it's true that archetyping for Imaginary Weapon is a particularly good combo for it.
I imagine fire ray can be pretty nasty.
But that amp 2 times a combat very early on is pretty brutal with imaginary weapon. Imaginary weapon is nice without the amp, then amp it and it's ridiculous.
It has the force tag too, so hammers incorporeal creatures.
Imaginary Weapon is a quality, unique cantrip for a melee psychic with weak hit points and defenses or even using Reach spell if you get it. It's an absolutely awesome cantrip for a starlit span magus or even a regular magus. They can use it even better than the psychic.
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Post Remaster rogues at mid to high levels are getting dangerously close to being OP (I don't think they've quite gotten there but its close and others probably think that they HAVE gotten there).
Gang up with a reach weapon is a significant bonus to a class that really, really did NOT need a significant bonus.
Honestly Rogues to me are so close to being OP, if they ever got an hit point buff, I'd be worried.
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Timber Sentinel is really, really strong! I've been seeing it in play for a while and it often feels like it turns down the encounter's threat level by one... Save for Extreme encounters. They're still Extreme.
But seriously: It's an at will area damage reduction. It's two actions that will often make the enemy group spend two to four actions to destroy it, which also incurs MAP and makes any follow-up enemy Strikes harder to land. I mean sure, the enemy may choose to Strike the tree directly, but... Why? As far as they know, it's a weird blocking tree that sprout from the ground. Surely an enemy should attempt a Recall Knowledge with Nature to know what it is, or at least a Perception roll to realize the tree is quite weak - after it blocks an actual attack? That is, if the enemy is at least intelligent.
And then, after the tree is destroyed, the kineticist can just pop up another one. :B
"Okay, maybe a breath attack will damage the tree as well as the PCs" Ah but the Protector Tree has no saving throws. What happens then? Well, with my two different groups, arguments happened.
The caveat here is that I noticed that both my groups tend to disperse in wide battlemaps, but I'm GMing AV for both of them, so...
I also kinda of agree on Rogues... If I see yet another elven branch spear wielding Thief Rogue that immediately goes for Gang Up as soon as they can... Well, that'd be okay and all because it's not broken or anything like that, but the class definitely feels like it gets a ton of mileage of its basic kit (damage rider, bunch of skill increases) and certain feats while others, well, don't as much. That so many people play exactly that in my circles would seem to confirm it, or at least paint my perspective.
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Honestly? The amount of Critical Hits that a Fighter can/does get at ANY Level but particularly at/around level 13 when, on average (if you're using a properly Runed up Weapon) you'll Crit anything that is PL +2 or less that isn't actively taking Cover or doing things to actively improve its AC on a roll of 13 or higher.
It's really not.
The overpowered part is, unlike Cauldron, Ceremonial Knife never calls out that they "temporary" or become "inert" the "next time you make your daily preparations". So it's not really "functionally two additional spell slots per day" but functionally two additional spell slots per day of downtime plus your daily two additional spell slots per day.
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It's really not.The overpowered part is, unlike Cauldron, Ceremonial Knife never calls out that they "temporary" or become "inert" the "next time you make your daily preparations". So it's not really "functionally two additional spell slots per day" but functionally two additional spell slots per day of downtime plus your daily two additional spell slots per day.
This in it's basic form. It's an entire class feat with no limits. Every day you get +1 wand. Which ironically you could snap the dagger to cast twice but unless you absolutely have too, RAW it's a never-ending wand. Just make MORE, no seriously have a near infinite amount of highest rank heals you can put into the knife, or fireball, or something like Alarm or Fear, stuff that doesn't scale... Sythenasia (I spelt it wrong) ... imagine having infinite of slow or the spell I just mentioned. No GM would let you get away with using only debuff/buff spells from Ceremonial Knives
It's clearly. "Too good to be true." Also like Rogues.
At low levels Timber Sentinel is absurd. My DM hated me since I shut down 3 out of the 5 encounters we fought early game with it. Crit the ranger, deals 18 damage, nope my 20 hit point tree took it. Well he still needs to fort save against the poison. NOPE, tree took all the damage so no poison hit his veins...Shit bro.
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This game really made a solid attempt at not making things overpowered such that they err on the side of making things that are underpowered.
Like Electric Arc is not really considered OP but other cantrips did feel underwhelming when competing for the use of 2 actions.
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It's an entire class feat with no limits. Every day you get +1 wand. Which ironically you could snap the dagger to cast twice but unless you absolutely have too, RAW it's a never-ending wand.
Yes. I can't see many GMs actually letting you use it like that. Some may even not let you use it twice. So how it will actually be played it is OK.
At low levels Timber Sentinel is absurd.
Maybe but it has the reverse problem of Ceremonial Knife. There is a RAW argument that you aren't your own ally and don't get the benefit of the Protector Tree. Personally I see it from the Tree's perspective and allow it to work for the caster.
Dirge of Doom is my pick for most broken ability. It is a +1/-1 turn around for the whole party. No save. Mindless is only around 4% of monsters. It is fairly reliable. With Dread Striker being the cherry on top.
healing clerics and bards are probably the strongest things around, rogues too with some suppoprt. Would not say they are overpowered though. Just smash them first if it makes sense to do so
Some may even not let you use it twice.
That would go against the clear and unambiguous writing of the feat though: "You can attempt to overcharge the knife, and this can break or destroy the knife as normal." I'm not sure an argument that a DM can houserule something to be less powerful is a meaningful counterargument to something being powerful.
I can't see many GMs actually letting you use it like that.
I can't say one way or another as I haven't played with an updated witch yet that has access to 6th level feats yet. I can see this feat working in various ways: maybe it's redone daily; maybe it's redone if you wish to change the spell in the knife or when it's broken; maybe it's something different. The only thing for sure is that it's nowhere as limiting/clear as the potion feat on its intent: As written you either get a bag of knife/wands or the DM has to step in and make up some houserules for it.
I can't see many GMs actually letting you use it like that.
I would. This feat makes me sad, I'd definitely give the PC the ability to get as many Wands as they want (but not to sell them, they stay daggers for the common folk).
I can't see many GMs actually letting you use it like that.I would. This feat makes me sad, I'd definitely give the PC the ability to get as many Wands as they want (but not to sell them, they stay daggers for the common folk).
Why does it make you sad?
Why does it make you sad?
Paying a mid level feat to be able to cast a spell 2 levels under your highest a few times per day is just so sad. Level -2 spells are pointless before high level and even at that stage they are functionally very close to unlimited considering how many you can get.
Focus spells, for example, are close to a second highest slot spell and you can cast them at least once per fight (and they come with an extra Focus Point). I've never considered Focus Spells to be anywhere close to super powerful.
So if one of my players takes Ceremonial Knife I'll certainly give them near unlimited low level Wands. The player will be happy and it won't break anything.
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Why does it make you sad?Paying a mid level feat to be able to cast a spell 2 levels under your highest a few times per day is just so sad. Level -2 spells are pointless before high level and even at that stage they are functionally very close to unlimited considering how many you can get.
Focus spells, for example, are close to a second highest slot spell and you can cast them at least once per fight (and they come with an extra Focus Point). I've never considered Focus Spells to be anywhere close to super powerful.
So if one of my players takes Ceremonial Knife I'll certainly give them near unlimited low level Wands. The player will be happy and it won't break anything.
Some focus spells are really good.
Unlimited wands? Up to level 7 or 8? I don't know. That can be pretty brutal. Unlimited slow (including AoE) or synesthesia. Unlimited chain lightning or phantasmal calamity. That can get pretty brutal. Unlimited haste or group haste. Vicious.
I can see at low level no big deal. Some of them even level 5 to 7 spells unlimited would be pretty brutal.
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At low levels Timber Sentinel is absurd.Maybe but it has the reverse problem of Ceremonial Knife. There is a RAW argument that you aren't your own ally and don't get the benefit of the Protector Tree. Personally I see it from the Tree's perspective and allow it to work for the caster.
I use it as not protecting the caster for my PFS 1st level Kineticist and it ends up really balanced IMO.
Dirge of Doom is my pick for most broken ability. It is a +1/-1 turn around for the whole party. No save. Mindless is only around 4% of monsters. It is fairly reliable. With Dread Striker being the cherry on top.
I was surprised to use Inspire Courage a bit more often than Dirge of Doom with my PFS Bard. Dirge is still a very good tool to have available. Just not an always Goto ability IME.